Welllllll, magicka is for vampires. Stamina is for werewolves. The game is set up so that if you want a magicka monster, you should choose vamp. Lore logic dictates this setup, I believe. I could be wrong tho.

I feel ya pain I wish vampire blood for blood had a stamina morph in every elder scrolls I always play a vampire assassin.

Beastygrowls wrote: »

Welllllll, magicka is for vampires. Stamina is for werewolves. The game is set up so that if you want a magicka monster, you should choose vamp. Lore logic dictates this setup, I believe. I could be wrong tho.

Vampires can use most abilities for a stam setup except for eviscerate.

Guyle wrote: »

Didn't they just change it so your light attack damage scales off of whichever your highest attribute is? Some change just got made like that, either way, if thats the case, it means WW can at least be feasible on a mag toon, as the majority of the dps comes from LAs.

Does that affect HA too? That would be slightly better.

I don't mind when either leans toward stam or mag, but just want the other side to at least not be laughable.

Muttsmutt wrote: »

functionally it would be nice.
lore-wise it would make no sense.

unless they introduced something new which translates into magicka-infused werewolves.
would be cool. doubt it'd happen though.

we might get another situation like the old vamps- where if you wanted to be fully optimized, you had to be vamp for passives.

Now that I think of it. A ton of werewolf bosses are magicka infused. Balorgh and normal werewolf midbosses come to mind.

Beastygrowls wrote: »

Welllllll, magicka is for vampires. Stamina is for werewolves. The game is set up so that if you want a magicka monster, you should choose vamp. Lore logic dictates this setup, I believe. I could be wrong tho.

Lore-wise, there's been plenty of stamina based vampires in other TES games. There's not much that dictates against it, after all there are entire vampire clans that are Stamina based. Berne vampires for example had a bonus to Willpower and Sneak, where as Quarra were the best physically, giving a +20 bonus to Strength, Blunt Weapon, Hand-to-hand, and Heavy Armor. As for werewolves, there's a book called Totems of Hircine (it appears in both Skyrim and ESO), which I'll quote;

Among those of us to whom Lord Hircine bestowed his most precious gift of Lycanthropy, there are legends that he also set into the world specific artifacts of his power. They date to a period when men could neither write, nor speak, nor barely think, but the powers of blood of the beast were yet flowing strong among the selected.

The first: a carved skull, of the wolf itself. Used by those ancient shamans in the blood ceremonies that created our lineage, it is said to grant a great presence to those who prostrate themselves before it, such that those who witness their forms cower in a terror unknown except to those who have glimpsed the face of Hircine himself.

The second: a thigh bone, carved as the skull, but from some animal unknown. Used as some form of medicinal wand in the more ancient brotherhood, it was said to grant a kind of heightened awareness, both in sight and smell, such that the prey could never flee too far from our senses.

The third: a simple drum, its mundane appearance meaning it is most likely lost to the mists of long ago time. As our fathers would beat time to summon their brethren from the fields, so too would our forebears in the blood call their allies to them with its pounding.

Through these totems, we channel and focus our energies of the beast. While werewolves give up the powers of magic known to men, we can tap into a more direct natural energy at times, and through these totems, discover the abilities that first tamed the world before wrought civilization sullied it.

If the lore fit, I wouldn't be against the idea. However in the cases of magicka-infused werewolves, while there's quite a few bosses that are - the truth is they're probably just as rare as vampire lords, if not rarer given the hard condition described in the Totems of Hircine book. That being said, making werewolf at least scale off of the highest stats with LA's/HA's helped, but like starkerealm mentioned - Mighty is something that one would miss in them.

Muttsmutt wrote: »

we might get another situation like the old vamps- where if you wanted to be fully optimized, you had to be vamp for passives.

While this is a slightly different topic, we're already in a similar situation since most stamina gank builds players I've talked to use it for Dark Stalker. Like the previous iteration, yes, they definitely benefited from both Supernatural Recovery (Stage 2) and Dark Stalker (Stage 4), they couldn't feed in order to keep those passives. In it's current iteration, Dark Stalker is much of a freebee. Everyone benefits from it simply by just becoming a vampire. Most stamina based players that I've talked to who kept their vampirism hover mostly around Stages 1-2, depending on their playstyle. The invisibility run at Stage 4 is the nuance of the line, giving more Magicka characters a bit more flexibility when it comes to stealth gameplay. Capture the Relic can get pretty annoying if someone knows how to benefit from that passive, but I digress. The reason why most I've talked to (we won't know the norm until everything settles down for a year or two) stay at Stage 1 to a max of 2 is because of the resource costs for non-vampire abilities.

There's a magicka WW in the Blessed Crucible as one of the Boss members in "The Pack"

So its not lorebreaking.

Would be cool if there was some scaling to highest stat goings on or something

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I am against homogenizing the game. Just like some weapons are stam based and other are magicka based the WW is stam and the vamp is magicka. If players want to run sub-optimal builds that is fine. Enjoy what you want. But the game should not be changed to suit everyone's whim.

I already said that I don't mind preferences like that, i just think a very small thing for magicka would help a lot. Also vampire can be fully used by stam except for eviscerate.

If you play a stam vampire you're literally gimping yourself and there's no reason to.

No the entire thing can't be used. Except for Blood Frenzy and Mist Form (even then has short uptime).

Exactly. As someone who has a Stamina Vampire to dive into the mechanics of the line and see how it differs, I can say for sure without a doubt that there's only a few niche uses. Most of them are PvP-centric.

Eviscerate>Blood for Blood/Arterial Burst benefits the most from Max Magicka, Spell Damage, and Nirnhoned which leads to tooltips upwards of 10-11k without potions/group buffs/Blood Scion, potentially higher with the right gear and CP loadouts as well as what I omitted. Stamina, I was lucky to get to 9k. Arguably, I was better off with a weapon line spammable/class spammable than I was with vampires. So that counts this ability out. Werewolf vs. Vampire in terms of Stamina usage, Werewolf wins here.

So let's look at the Drain. Stamina has an option to use Drain Vigor, however this does require Magicka to cast and has a duration of three seconds, returns 23% of your missing Health and 5% of your missing Stamina and it's interruptible. In my tests, it was better to use Mortal Coil on my Stamcro, Leeching Strikes from Nightblade, and other abilities similar for other classes. The uptimes are arguably longer, easier to maintain and use, not to mention more uniform to class passives as a whole to get the best bang for your buck. So the only Stamina toons I could really see using the drain would be tanks and they have an option for either morph. Not for DPS. Werewolf, again, wins here. Especially considering that both Hircine's Rage and Hircine's Fortitude are more useful than the drain itself no matter how we put a spin on it as a Stamina based character.

Blood Frenzy and it's morphs are the most controversial. You can't get healed by allies with this ability and it's uptime is rather complicated on Stamina. Doable in short intervals, however in something a little more difficult like raid HMs in execute phases of some of those final bosses you're just better off just slotting an actual execute if your class has one. The incremental ramp up of Health cost gets pretty steep to keep up and since healers can't heal you, you're going to have some difficulties staying alive. Werewolves on the other hand has a more rounded toolkit to heal in their forms along with as long as they do damage, their timer increases by 4 seconds per 5 with that passive and even more per transformed werewolf with Call of the Pack (and dire wolves even boost this). With that instance, I'd choose werewolves over a Stamina vampire in my group.

Mesmerize and it's morphs have a very hard requirement, that being that your target has to be looking STRAIGHT at you. If they're not looking directly at you, they're not affected by this no matter how hard you spam it. Given that Stamina vampires don't benefit from anything past Stage 3 due to the Class/Weapon/Anything that isn't Vampire-based skill cost increase (the stealth run isn't that beneficial in PvE or PvP unless, again, you're running something exceptionally niche), werewolf has one that does better than what that ability and it's morphs can pull off in a coordinated group in PvP, especially BGs. Both morphs of Roar are pretty viable in comparison, especially when you add Piercing Howl and it's morphs. There's no group synergy when it comes to vampirism, yet werewolves have them built into their passives and if someone slotted Howl of Despair. Which again, makes Werewolf more superior to take as a Stamina toon than Vampirism.

Mist Form is arguably the only skill (omitting the ultimate) that I could find a legitimate use for in both PvP and PvE and that's to soak up damage in Blood Mist. Elusive Mist is no longer as fast as it used to be given that it no longer provides an Expedition Buff, and then the heal just helps you recover just a tad. But werewolf again shines here in terms of what's already in their toolkit versus a Stamina vampire.

Even the ultimate, you're going to have longer uptimes with Werewolf than you're likely to have with Blood Scion because you don't gain ultimate in the transformation. So while yes, abilities can be USED as a Stamina vampire, are they efficient? More than likely not, unless you're running a super niche build, a gank, a tank that LoSes with Mist Form, or something along those lines. In comparison, why would anyone be a Stamina vampire if they intend to engage in either challenging, endgame, or otherwise competitive content? The only reason I haven't cured my Stamina vampire yet is because I use it to gauge whether or not something can be universally used as a vampire ability wise. The only real passives they benefit from are Dark Stalker (which you don't have to feed anymore to use) and Strike from the Shadows for the spell/weapon damage buff which, again, mostly compliments a gank playstyle more than a universal one unless you're pretty darn good at weaving Mist Form in your rotation to keep it at least above 75% up time.

It's already arguably more feasible that Magicka based toons have more of a benefit of Werewolf than Stamina toons have of Vampirism currently.

Sephyr wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I am against homogenizing the game. Just like some weapons are stam based and other are magicka based the WW is stam and the vamp is magicka. If players want to run sub-optimal builds that is fine. Enjoy what you want. But the game should not be changed to suit everyone's whim.

I already said that I don't mind preferences like that, i just think a very small thing for magicka would help a lot. Also vampire can be fully used by stam except for eviscerate.

If you play a stam vampire you're literally gimping yourself and there's no reason to.

No the entire thing can't be used. Except for Blood Frenzy and Mist Form (even then has short uptime).

Exactly. As someone who has a Stamina Vampire to dive into the mechanics of the line and see how it differs, I can say for sure without a doubt that there's only a few niche uses. Most of them are PvP-centric.

Eviscerate>Blood for Blood/Arterial Burst benefits the most from Max Magicka, Spell Damage, and Nirnhoned which leads to tooltips upwards of 10-11k without potions/group buffs/Blood Scion, potentially higher with the right gear and CP loadouts as well as what I omitted. Stamina, I was lucky to get to 9k. Arguably, I was better off with a weapon line spammable/class spammable than I was with vampires. So that counts this ability out. Werewolf vs. Vampire in terms of Stamina usage, Werewolf wins here.

So let's look at the Drain. Stamina has an option to use Drain Vigor, however this does require Magicka to cast and has a duration of three seconds, returns 23% of your missing Health and 5% of your missing Stamina and it's interruptible. In my tests, it was better to use Mortal Coil on my Stamcro, Leeching Strikes from Nightblade, and other abilities similar for other classes. The uptimes are arguably longer, easier to maintain and use, not to mention more uniform to class passives as a whole to get the best bang for your buck. So the only Stamina toons I could really see using the drain would be tanks and they have an option for either morph. Not for DPS. Werewolf, again, wins here. Especially considering that both Hircine's Rage and Hircine's Fortitude are more useful than the drain itself no matter how we put a spin on it as a Stamina based character.

Blood Frenzy and it's morphs are the most controversial. You can't get healed by allies with this ability and it's uptime is rather complicated on Stamina. Doable in short intervals, however in something a little more difficult like raid HMs in execute phases of some of those final bosses you're just better off just slotting an actual execute if your class has one. The incremental ramp up of Health cost gets pretty steep to keep up and since healers can't heal you, you're going to have some difficulties staying alive. Werewolves on the other hand has a more rounded toolkit to heal in their forms along with as long as they do damage, their timer increases by 4 seconds per 5 with that passive and even more per transformed werewolf with Call of the Pack (and dire wolves even boost this). With that instance, I'd choose werewolves over a Stamina vampire in my group.

Mesmerize and it's morphs have a very hard requirement, that being that your target has to be looking STRAIGHT at you. If they're not looking directly at you, they're not affected by this no matter how hard you spam it. Given that Stamina vampires don't benefit from anything past Stage 3 due to the Class/Weapon/Anything that isn't Vampire-based skill cost increase (the stealth run isn't that beneficial in PvE or PvP unless, again, you're running something exceptionally niche), werewolf has one that does better than what that ability and it's morphs can pull off in a coordinated group in PvP, especially BGs. Both morphs of Roar are pretty viable in comparison, especially when you add Piercing Howl and it's morphs. There's no group synergy when it comes to vampirism, yet werewolves have them built into their passives and if someone slotted Howl of Despair. Which again, makes Werewolf more superior to take as a Stamina toon than Vampirism.

Mist Form is arguably the only skill (omitting the ultimate) that I could find a legitimate use for in both PvP and PvE and that's to soak up damage in Blood Mist. Elusive Mist is no longer as fast as it used to be given that it no longer provides an Expedition Buff, and then the heal just helps you recover just a tad. But werewolf again shines here in terms of what's already in their toolkit versus a Stamina vampire.

Even the ultimate, you're going to have longer uptimes with Werewolf than you're likely to have with Blood Scion because you don't gain ultimate in the transformation. So while yes, abilities can be USED as a Stamina vampire, are they efficient? More than likely not, unless you're running a super niche build, a gank, a tank that LoSes with Mist Form, or something along those lines. In comparison, why would anyone be a Stamina vampire if they intend to engage in either challenging, endgame, or otherwise competitive content? The only reason I haven't cured my Stamina vampire yet is because I use it to gauge whether or not something can be universally used as a vampire ability wise. The only real passives they benefit from are Dark Stalker (which you don't have to feed anymore to use) and Strike from the Shadows for the spell/weapon damage buff which, again, mostly compliments a gank playstyle more than a universal one unless you're pretty darn good at weaving Mist Form in your rotation to keep it at least above 75% up time.

It's already arguably more feasible that Magicka based toons have more of a benefit of Werewolf than Stamina toons have of Vampirism currently.

You know I said usable and not the best in class right? It's sub optimal but still usable for stam. That's what I'm asking for magicka werewolf.

I might have to test if the LA changes are good.

It would be nice if mag werewolf could:

-restore mag on heavy attacks (instead of stam), or if a staff is equipped.
-heal other werewolves only (one of the Hircine's Bounty morphs).
-maybe trade some stam regen for mag regen (maybe added to one of the Hircine's Bounty morphs also).

The problem is that there is only one mag skill, so there should be some other skills with mag morphs.

Lore went out the window ages ago, I wouldn't stand by that anymore. Poor bosmeri. :'(

How does the Frost Staff factor into this? You don't get the weapon's properties or Destruction Staff abilities when in Werewolf Form. You'd probably get better damage running Dual Wield Swords.

I do kind of like the build challenge of trying to make a Magicka Werewolf work though, it would be a fun problem to work on!