Tank Buster

Lord_Etrigan · October 2020

Hi Guys,

IRO the above,

Lord_Etrigan · October 2020

Hi Guys,
IRO the above, let me provide some background first.

I have been playing Sniper for a while now and love the thrill of the hunt but with 2x Grand Master Titles under the belt and too many Emp titles to count, found hunting the small fish a bit boring.

Don't get me wrong, I still get that butterfly feeling in the tummy from silently hunting and taking down various enemies and of course who don't enjoy those occasional hate mails of "Your a noob sniper, a one button warrior or my favorite...come face me instead of hiding you ***h*le".

I want a new challenge and I think I found it. Lately I have noticed that there are more tanks or enemies with 50-70k health and your conventional snipe does not always bust that bunker if they are buffed and running around with huge shields.

Now I was running Titan/NewMoon and dropping my health down to " don't look at me or I will die" and hitting insane numbers but this make you very vulnerable and one light attack from a staff or dk leap and you can put on your Tombstone..." Here lies a squishy NB".

So im running as an experiment Newmoon/Sprigg/Masterbow with the aim of getting behind that armor plating and sticking my arrow deep into the soft gut of my prey.

Im looking for some advise or assistance on creating a 'Tankbuster'. and want to know what kind of penetration/ weapon damage is needed to get the job done and how they relate to each other.

Also any any advise on sets or setup will be highly appreciated.

Taleof2Cities · October 2020

How about the Shieldbreaker medium 5-piece, @Lord_Etrigan?

fred4 · October 2020

Number one: There are some people you can't kill as a single person. That GrimHallow (see YouTube) high-health, high-resistance, 6K+ health-regen werewolf is IMO unkillable.

Number two: You don't kill tanks with a burst build. I guess, if you used an armor negating skill, such as Onslaught or Corrosive Armor (DK), then you might have a go at it, but tankiness may also be derived from high healing and active defense, such as blocking. Historically I have found that high-health builds have trouble healing back to full quickly, especially in the hands of an inexperienced player. Such characters are vulnerable to pressure, not burst. In other words, you have to treat them like PvE boss. Your sustained DPS is what kills them.

Number three: I have a friend who specialised in PvP tanking for a while. When an experienced tank piles on health-based heals, such as Arctic Blast and Absorb Magic, perhaps combining them with the flavor-of-the-month overtuned armor set (Crimson Twilight) and they've tested their sustain by solo-tanking the first fight of Hel Ra Citadel, there is nothing you can do to bring them down as a single player.

Things are different, if you're taking about a shielding sorc in which case I think burst is the way to go, but I don't count those characters as tanks. Shielding builds are fundamentally brittle. They depend on the players experience in keeping their shields up and on having the stamina sustain to always break free. If the player is inexperienced or simply runs a borderline build in that regard, you might attack their stamina. True shielding tanks, such as Blazing Shield builds, no longer really exist as far as I know.

Lord_Etrigan · October 2020

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

How about the Shieldbreaker medium 5-piece, @Lord_Etrigan?

Been looking at shield breaker but not yet experimented with it

Lord_Etrigan · October 2020

fred4 wrote: »

Number one: There are some people you can't kill as a single person. That GrimHallow (see YouTube) high-health, high-resistance, 6K+ health-regen werewolf is IMO unkillable.

Number two: You don't kill tanks with a burst build. I guess, if you used an armor negating skill, such as Onslaught or Corrosive Armor (DK), then you might have a go at it, but tankiness may also be derived from high healing and active defense, such as blocking. Historically I have found that high-health builds have trouble healing back to full quickly, especially in the hands of an inexperienced player. Such characters are vulnerable to pressure, not burst. In other words, you have to treat them like PvE boss. Your sustained DPS is what kills them.

Number three: I have a friend who specialised in PvP tanking for a while. When an experienced tank piles on health-based heals, such as Arctic Blast and Absorb Magic, perhaps combining them with the flavor-of-the-month overtuned armor set (Crimson Twilight) and they've tested their sustain by solo-tanking the first fight of Hel Ra Citadel, there is nothing you can do to bring them down as a single player.

Things are different, if you're taking about a shielding sorc in which case I think burst is the way to go, but I don't count those characters as tanks. Shielding builds are fundamentally brittle. They depend on the players experience in keeping their shields up and on having the stamina sustain to always break free. If the player is inexperienced or simply runs a borderline build in that regard, you might attack their stamina. True shielding tanks, such as Blazing Shield builds, no longer really exist as far as I know.

Thanks for the great reply, yes I agree with you on your points and as you rightly say tanks don't generate health fast to full, surely there must be a way to reduce that speed healing, poison, decease and at the same time get past their armor.

I just killed a 70 k tank, it took about 5 snipes, poison injection and a silver shard, if you can stun him long en ought to attack his stam then he should not be able to get out of stun or use stam.

Fawn4287 · November 2020

I really think the only way to bust tanks is with full dots, something like unleashed terror, paired with masters bleeds, entropy, double resource drain poisons, balorgh etc. the only problem is if they have a cleanse which necros, templars and to a lesser extent wardens all do.

rogenep360 · November 2020

Lord_Etrigan wrote: »

Hi Guys,
IRO the above, let me provide some background first.

I have been playing Sniper for a while now and love the thrill of the hunt but with 2x Grand Master Titles under the belt and too many Emp titles to count, found hunting the small fish a bit boring.

Don't get me wrong, I still get that butterfly feeling in the tummy from silently hunting and taking down various enemies and of course who don't enjoy those occasional hate mails of "Your a noob sniper, a one button warrior or my favorite...come face me instead of hiding you ***h*le".

I want a new challenge and I think I found it. Lately I have noticed that there are more tanks or enemies with 50-70k health and your conventional snipe does not always bust that bunker if they are buffed and running around with huge shields.

Now I was running Titan/NewMoon and dropping my health down to " don't look at me or I will die" and hitting insane numbers but this make you very vulnerable and one light attack from a staff or dk leap and you can put on your Tombstone..." Here lies a squishy NB".

So im running as an experiment Newmoon/Sprigg/Masterbow with the aim of getting behind that armor plating and sticking my arrow deep into the soft gut of my prey.

Im looking for some advise or assistance on creating a 'Tankbuster'. and want to know what kind of penetration/ weapon damage is needed to get the job done and how they relate to each other.

Also any any advise on sets or setup will be highly appreciated.

Just snipe and desync them to death

Waffennacht · November 2020

Lord_Etrigan wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Number one: There are some people you can't kill as a single person. That GrimHallow (see YouTube) high-health, high-resistance, 6K+ health-regen werewolf is IMO unkillable.

Number two: You don't kill tanks with a burst build. I guess, if you used an armor negating skill, such as Onslaught or Corrosive Armor (DK), then you might have a go at it, but tankiness may also be derived from high healing and active defense, such as blocking. Historically I have found that high-health builds have trouble healing back to full quickly, especially in the hands of an inexperienced player. Such characters are vulnerable to pressure, not burst. In other words, you have to treat them like PvE boss. Your sustained DPS is what kills them.

Number three: I have a friend who specialised in PvP tanking for a while. When an experienced tank piles on health-based heals, such as Arctic Blast and Absorb Magic, perhaps combining them with the flavor-of-the-month overtuned armor set (Crimson Twilight) and they've tested their sustain by solo-tanking the first fight of Hel Ra Citadel, there is nothing you can do to bring them down as a single player.

Things are different, if you're taking about a shielding sorc in which case I think burst is the way to go, but I don't count those characters as tanks. Shielding builds are fundamentally brittle. They depend on the players experience in keeping their shields up and on having the stamina sustain to always break free. If the player is inexperienced or simply runs a borderline build in that regard, you might attack their stamina. True shielding tanks, such as Blazing Shield builds, no longer really exist as far as I know.

Thanks for the great reply, yes I agree with you on your points and as you rightly say tanks don't generate health fast to full, surely there must be a way to reduce that speed healing, poison, decease and at the same time get past their armor.

I just killed a 70 k tank, it took about 5 snipes, poison injection and a silver shard, if you can stun him long en ought to attack his stam then he should not be able to get out of stun or use stam.

If you didnt desync him; or if you were alone, that's one horrible PvP tank.

They should never run outta resources because everything should be invested into sustain and health.

@fred4 gave the most comprehensive bad @!$ comment there is to give on the subject

Lord_Etrigan · November 2020

Fawn4287 wrote: »

I really think the only way to bust tanks is with full dots, something like unleashed terror, paired with masters bleeds, entropy, double resource drain poisons, balorgh etc. the only problem is if they have a cleanse which necros, templars and to a lesser extent wardens all do.

Yes was thinking in the same direction. I watched a few tanky players last night trying to determin what class, and skills they use during combat. Sometimes just watching a battle can give allot of info.

Lord_Etrigan · November 2020

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lord_Etrigan wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Number one: There are some people you can't kill as a single person. That GrimHallow (see YouTube) high-health, high-resistance, 6K+ health-regen werewolf is IMO unkillable.

Number two: You don't kill tanks with a burst build. I guess, if you used an armor negating skill, such as Onslaught or Corrosive Armor (DK), then you might have a go at it, but tankiness may also be derived from high healing and active defense, such as blocking. Historically I have found that high-health builds have trouble healing back to full quickly, especially in the hands of an inexperienced player. Such characters are vulnerable to pressure, not burst. In other words, you have to treat them like PvE boss. Your sustained DPS is what kills them.

Number three: I have a friend who specialised in PvP tanking for a while. When an experienced tank piles on health-based heals, such as Arctic Blast and Absorb Magic, perhaps combining them with the flavor-of-the-month overtuned armor set (Crimson Twilight) and they've tested their sustain by solo-tanking the first fight of Hel Ra Citadel, there is nothing you can do to bring them down as a single player.

Things are different, if you're taking about a shielding sorc in which case I think burst is the way to go, but I don't count those characters as tanks. Shielding builds are fundamentally brittle. They depend on the players experience in keeping their shields up and on having the stamina sustain to always break free. If the player is inexperienced or simply runs a borderline build in that regard, you might attack their stamina. True shielding tanks, such as Blazing Shield builds, no longer really exist as far as I know.

Thanks for the great reply, yes I agree with you on your points and as you rightly say tanks don't generate health fast to full, surely there must be a way to reduce that speed healing, poison, decease and at the same time get past their armor.

I just killed a 70 k tank, it took about 5 snipes, poison injection and a silver shard, if you can stun him long en ought to attack his stam then he should not be able to get out of stun or use stam.

If you didnt desync him; or if you were alone, that's one horrible PvP tank.

They should never run outta resources because everything should be invested into sustain and health.

@fred4 gave the most comprehensive bad @!$ comment there is to give on the subject

Thanks for the reply, yes I might have caught him unaware but he still managed to get some buffs in.
I honestly think that no build should be unkillable. Somewhere in that build lies a weakness and thats what I want to dissect hence the brainstorming session if you can call it that. If we going to say its a tank, you cant kill it and just leave it at that then how do you progress to become better at trying to kill them. If thats the case then how long before cyro is overrun by unkillable chars.

I think lets start at the basics. what makes a tank a tank, what is penetration vs armour and how do we balance burst damage, penetration and dots to chip away at that said armor. What are the resistance they run at and what is cap, that way you can modify cp, dps, burst, skills to focus on finding that weakness and exploiting that as @Fawn4287 mentioned about the bleeds. the coals is to get behind that defenses.

fred4 · November 2020

Lord_Etrigan wrote: »

If we going to say its a tank, you cant kill it and just leave it at that then how do you progress to become better at trying to kill them. If thats the case then how long before cyro is overrun by unkillable chars.

That won't happen, because Cyro is about killing. Most people want to have some kill potential, like you. It's only the poor noob, setting foot in Cyro for the first time, who is drawn to building a tank so they can survive and learn some basics beyond riding. Noobs, questers and people with arthritis might build one. I personally know one case of the latter. I suggest you leave them alone, because really you're just griefing them. There may be a handful of people who turn tanking into a high art and are looking for hate whispers by doing so, just like you perhaps relish getting whispers for sniping. I don't think that's the majority.

The effectiveness of actual PvP tanking, such as being a honeypot and wearing Durok's Bane, must be at an all time low. An ice warden root + snare build probably comes closest, but overall I think we're in a speed meta. Play melee and you'll notice how hard it is to hit people, because they're so fast.

I know it's been fashionable among elite players to complain about "the" tank meta, but at the same time no one wants to die. ZOS have already turned the dial by decreasing healing. This has affected people's ability to 1vX and some are now complaining about that in personal conversations.

If you're talking about a tanky 1vXer you have to bear in mind that these are experienced players and I wouldn't classify them as tanks. I'm not quite at that level myself, but it's all too easy to tank people on my medium armor DK, just by being awkward. At least for a while. I'm talking about using line-of-sight mostly.

The main antidote to tanks, by the way, is simply numbers. All tanks are doomed to die. While that is true for every player, the tank doesn't get any AP for having held out, say, for a minute against a zerg.

I know you get throngs of players around a single 1vXer sometimes who seem to be utterly ineffective, but the reason they are is (a) the use of LoS by the 1vXer and (b) that zergs are uncoordinated. Point (b) goes both towards a lack of coordination on, say, Discord and towards there being many players who never worked on their burst combos. Some don't even know what the latter two words mean. I've talked to PvPers like that.

I suppose I have left out a category that I know relatively little about. These are the control builds, such as the aforementioned ice warden, but also healers. I don't think of those as tanks, but they may well be unkillable in a 1v1, as perhaps they should be, if they know what they're doing. They're group players and, when you encounter them outside their group, they will typically not tank you in one spot, but they'll fend you off and lead you back to their group, where you'll get killed if you take the bait. To me that's fair enough really.