Theory on Apple Silicon + ESO

demerdecanswrath · October 2020

Next month on November 17th, an Apple Silicon Mac event will likely take place (leaked by a very reliable source). As Apple does each and every time they have significant processor improvements, they bring on stage AAA studios and/or accomplished indie devs to showcase the chip's capabilities.

Would it be possible for ZoS to have collaborated with Apple to bring an overhauled version of ESO on Apple Silicon Macs?

Reasons & credible assumptions which support this theory:

ZeniMax is now acquired by Microsoft, blessing them with business process immunity and good reputation. (that's a joke, but also kinda true)
Apple always brings big names, and they've already done it with Bethesda Game Studios. ZoS/ZeniMax would be no exception.
As rumours were spreading of an Apple Silicon Mac back in 2017-2018, ZoS made a hasty move away from OpenGL (as it was mathematically exact that it would be deprecated) and onto the Metal API, sure to represent the future of whatever Apple does with their hardware stack.
ZoS and ZeniMax in general are known to support all big and relatively novel platforms, audibly so - look at Stadia (and the Mac itself back in 2014!) for ESO, and even Amazon's Alexa for Skyrim. An Apple Silicon Mac fits almost exactly those criteria.
There have been absolutely no new hires and zero announcements for almost two years by ZoS. This either means Mac is almost out the door (unlikely, given Microsoft and good overall prospects), OR they have had no need of new engineers since the existing ones have access to specialised Apple resources.
Apple has been creating a very good foundation for gaming - excellent controller support, constant upgrades to Apple Silicon GPUs.
Apple has recently had a falling out with Epic Games, who used Fortnite and other games as their go-to for gaming showcases on Apple Devices.
ESO is a big name game. Especially on the Mac catalogue, it's right up there with WoW.
The kind of silent treatment we receive from ZoS regarding the Mac client's development and future screams NDA.

More (but less credible) reasons such a thing would make sense:

Apple Silicon means power over Intel, but also 5G support. If there is a 5G enabled Mac somewhere in that event next month, the perfect application to showcase power & connectivity would be with an MMORPG like ESO. They already did exactly that with League of Legends on the iPhone 12 showcase and Apple is not one to repeat game showcases (like a LoL one on ASi Mac).
This event is a bigger deal than most imagine. The end of Jobs' era literally, with the biggest changes in 20 years inside & out. I wouldn't think small about what's coming.

What do you think? Does that sound completely insane, or did I just catch a glimpse through an Elder Scroll?

All in good fun, if none of that happens we would be laughing with ESO on the Mac anyways.

TheBunny · October 2020

LOL

BTW the League of Legends: Wild Rift... is a new game and is written on top of the Unity Game engine.
Basically xplatform with a push of a button if done correctly.

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

A few comments:

On the other hand MS for sure builds their portfolio around MS delivered solutions (Xbox, Windows). It is true that MS delivers some apps for other systems (like they deliver Office for Mac, Visual Studio or .Net) but then all those apps are about enterprise customers with home users getting this by the way as not as targeted audience. It is interesting to see what will happen with TESO. Perhaps Mac client will not be affected but I predict something at some point will surface about PS client.
They also drive away some big names. See recent events related to Epic Games as a reference which I believe nevertheless shows that if Apple can earn anything at cost of driving someone away they may take their chances.
Decision was not hasty really. ZoS done it not prior but after OpenGL libs delivered by Apple were deprecated. In fact all major developers started to deliver their Metal based solutions at that time. See biggest ZoS competitor as example. Then there is Unity 3D and also Epic.
True however on the other hand TESO is first product related in any way to The Elder Scrolls franchise supporting Macs. Can't really judge much here.
If there was some extra cooperation between ZoS and Apple outside of an ordinary support provided by Apple to 3rd party companies then either party would probably tell that a long time ago. In fact I could expect ZoS being at least some little part of any Mac related Apple's event. There is however a 3rd option that you are missing but is used widely by software companies - you hire for one platform with actual expectation that your new employee will be able over time join support for another platform. Some companies consider this to be the cheapest (due to expected developer flexibility) approach while posted jobs say nothing about such requirement as officially it is considered a bonus why to pick candidate A over B.
That is only partly true. For iOS mostly - still question why Metal is not supporting Vulkan. MS did it with DX so why not Apple? That would surely make porting game engines easier due to similarities in API's. As for Macs? Do not take me wrong here Apple has lots of things to prove still. In fact some could argue that over last 10 years on Macs Apple made a few steps backwards in this area. Also hard to compare those A14's to even a few years old Vega 64 really but judging from A13's there is just a little chance it will match anything even decent for desktops. Mobile gaming has different set of demands that desktop and GPU is not really one of them for real.
Which shows exactly why it may not work. Especially that on Windows or TESO distributed via Steam payments are handled by ZoS and note Valve/MS.
It is true. But then guess what. The only company that for real confirmed porting anything to new Macs was MS confirming Office. And it is already a few months after announcement AND MS has been reported to work on this subject for some time already prior June's announcement which then may mean Apple already released that information to companies it considers as strategic partners. Truth? So far it can go either way really. Only time will tell.

As for this argument about 5G. Coverage will not be there in both USA as well most European countries for another few years. Also current 5G as it is becoming available is for real a match for WiFi 5 gen while we have already 6th generation with actual bandwidth available exceeding current state of 5G, sorry. Also the reality is that TESO requires dedicated GPU with some decent power. A14 used in Macs will unlikely deliver it leaving still the need to either desktop Mac or MacBook with external GPU (so always playing from same set of locations). In either case 5G gives exactly nothing but some trendy PR.

SirAndy · October 2020

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

What do you think?

demerdecanswrath · October 2020

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

A few comments

This is great, and actually very insightful. Lots could be said about most games surrounding this event, this is just wishful thinking.

ZoS lacking Mac support so hard I'm hallucinating.

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

A few comments

This is great, and actually very insightful. Lots could be said about most games surrounding this event, this is just wishful thinking.

ZoS lacking Mac support so hard I'm hallucinating.

Actually sorry if I did sound too harsh about it. Truth is we have no idea for real what to expect from those ARM based Macs. It can be step to right direction but then it may be at the same time cause of mass exodus and switch to PC. For all I can say it may happen that 2 years from now none of us will want to have anything to do with Macs really. Time will tell what happens.

One thing is for sure that I would expect some communication from ZoS related to new Macs even if not by the end of this year then perhaps some time early next year once company learns what can they do with it really.

demerdecanswrath · October 2020

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Actually sorry if I did sound too harsh about it. Truth is we have no idea for real what to expect from those ARM based Macs.

You didn't sound harsh at all! I completely agree with your thinking.

I just literally still cannot fathom how such a massive franchise's active branch is so embarrassingly underdeveloped. I'm thinking it must involve an NDA, because Apple is notorious for them and they suck corporate resources like black holes. I refuse to believe this is simply administrative oversight on ZoS' end. Anyone in there with some dignity those 2-3 years would stop treating the Mac client like the distant car crash that it is.

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Actually sorry if I did sound too harsh about it. Truth is we have no idea for real what to expect from those ARM based Macs.

You didn't sound harsh at all! I completely agree with your thinking.

I just literally still cannot fathom how such a massive franchise's active branch is so embarrassingly underdeveloped. I'm thinking it must involve an NDA, because Apple is notorious for them and they suck corporate resources like black holes. I refuse to believe this is simply administrative oversight on ZoS' end. Anyone in there with some dignity those 2-3 years would stop treating the Mac client like the distant car crash that it is.

not oversight nor NDA but rather everyone is rather waiting to see where does it go with those CPU's. Truth being told is that in general developer community is at this point uncertain of many things still and that is not just limited to TESO and ZoS.

Calm_Fury · October 2020

This is good, wishful thinking, but I don't see it happen.

I have a Mac and play on a Windows Boot Camp partition because the Mac version is just horrible.

What will end up happening is that, if ESO is playable in any for in an ARM Mac, it will likely be through the emulation software Apple provides, which will result in an even bigger performance hit. I doubt ZOS will offer a lot of support for such a small player base.

Also, Microsoft strategy is to have everyone playing on THEIR platform. PC + Xbox + xCloud. I don't see any chance that they want to re-enforce Mac as a gaming platform.

Lastly, ESO is not really that big in the general gaming community. Outside of MMO players, most people don't even know ESO exists.

I'm pretty sure that the only way to play ESO on ARM Macs will be via Stadia or if Microsoft releases a good ARM Windows and Apple supports it via Bootcamp.

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

For consoles their politics are clear however in case on PC it is evolving. Truth being told about MS that company for most of the time (and for a good reason btw) saw threat in Linux systems however they at the same time (and same management) always supported this way or another Macs really. Also even MS politics regarding Linux is heavily evolving currently with Microsoft itself porting their apps to it step by step as such need arises.

When it comes to porting current Mac client to ARM based Mac this may not be as challenging as it may seem. API does not change and the biggest challenge would probably be ensuring performance is same or better than client for x64 based Macs.

TheBunny · October 2020

I love these threads!
Keep going!

Calm_Fury · October 2020

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

For consoles their politics are clear however in case on PC it is evolving. Truth being told about MS that company for most of the time (and for a good reason btw) saw threat in Linux systems however they at the same time (and same management) always supported this way or another Macs really. Also even MS politics regarding Linux is heavily evolving currently with Microsoft itself porting their apps to it step by step as such need arises.

When it comes to porting current Mac client to ARM based Mac this may not be as challenging as it may seem. API does not change and the biggest challenge would probably be ensuring performance is same or better than client for x64 based Macs.

As a developer, I can say that the 2020 Microsoft is totally different of the Microsoft most people think of from 10 years and more ago.

I don't think this acquisition will mean better Mac support for ESO at all. MS strategy with games is very clear: it wants a platform, not a game console. MS endgame is PC + Xbox + xCloud (on mobile).

I truly hope MS will see that ESO can be a major cash cow with some server investments and double down on the game, which will mean a better ESO for all of us (I always rememeber how Alcast says the Combat Team at Zenimax is like 5 to 10 people only - which is very small for a game with this scope).

I don't think it will mean a better ESO on Mac, though. I don't expect ESO on Macs to be a thing in the long run, but I expect a ARM Windows on Bootcamp + Apple ARM + ESO to be very viable in a couple of years.

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

Calm_Fury wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

For consoles their politics are clear however in case on PC it is evolving. Truth being told about MS that company for most of the time (and for a good reason btw) saw threat in Linux systems however they at the same time (and same management) always supported this way or another Macs really. Also even MS politics regarding Linux is heavily evolving currently with Microsoft itself porting their apps to it step by step as such need arises.

When it comes to porting current Mac client to ARM based Mac this may not be as challenging as it may seem. API does not change and the biggest challenge would probably be ensuring performance is same or better than client for x64 based Macs.

I don't think it will mean a better ESO on Mac, though. I don't expect ESO on Macs to be a thing in the long run, but I expect a ARM Windows on Bootcamp + Apple ARM + ESO to be very viable in a couple of years.

Well this part actually is already official. Bootcamp is not to be supported and MS is not right now planning Windows for Apple CPU's. The only possibility to run Windows on Mac is going to be through some virtualization software such as VirtualBox or Parallels Desktop. And even that may require Rosetta 2 (see history of Rosetta in MacOS X to see why this may not be a solution at all in the end).

As for MS strategy for gaming this is why I made this reference to Linux. A few years ago MS strategy towards it was also very clear and now we have SQL Server for Linux, .Net for Linux, Office web apps are working with Linux as well as with other systems, VS supporting also Linux development. And on top of that there is WSL (so actual Linux incorporated in Windows). Even if company politics is right now the way it is it does not mean that it will be same even year from now. Especially towards Macs - platform that MS never saw as real competition to Windows in any aspect.

Calm_Fury · October 2020

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

For consoles their politics are clear however in case on PC it is evolving. Truth being told about MS that company for most of the time (and for a good reason btw) saw threat in Linux systems however they at the same time (and same management) always supported this way or another Macs really. Also even MS politics regarding Linux is heavily evolving currently with Microsoft itself porting their apps to it step by step as such need arises.

When it comes to porting current Mac client to ARM based Mac this may not be as challenging as it may seem. API does not change and the biggest challenge would probably be ensuring performance is same or better than client for x64 based Macs.

I don't think it will mean a better ESO on Mac, though. I don't expect ESO on Macs to be a thing in the long run, but I expect a ARM Windows on Bootcamp + Apple ARM + ESO to be very viable in a couple of years.

Well this part actually is already official. Bootcamp is not to be supported and MS is not right now planning Windows for Apple CPU's. The only possibility to run Windows on Mac is going to be through some virtualization software such as VirtualBox or Parallels Desktop. And even that may require Rosetta 2 (see history of Rosetta in MacOS X to see why this may not be a solution at all in the end).

As for MS strategy for gaming this is why I made this reference to Linux. A few years ago MS strategy towards it was also very clear and now we have SQL Server for Linux, .Net for Linux, Office web apps are working with Linux as well as with other systems, VS supporting also Linux development. And on top of that there is WSL (so actual Linux incorporated in Windows). Even if company politics is right now the way it is it does not mean that it will be same even year from now. Especially towards Macs - platform that MS never saw as real competition to Windows in any aspect.

Is official for now. But there is already a ARM Windows. It was made for tablets and probably not what we need here, but maybe that is the push MS needed to double down on ARM Windows, then Apple would make another version of Bootcamp.

I don't think Apple will just forget about Windows on the new ARM chips. There are still many use cases where Windows is needed in companies. It might take a few years but it will happen.

I play on Mac, with Bootcamp, and I wouldn't buy an ARM Mac if I wanted to keep playing ESO here, though. I don't think it will be doable for a long time. Better keep with Intel Macs or straight up buy a PC for ESO.

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

Well then here is that thing. MS has little reason to release Windows dedicated for Macs and Apple's politics on this matter are also clear - then only supported system is macOS and no other system is going to be supported. Bootcamp is being removed with Macs introduced probably later this year or some time Q1 2021. So for that reason if you want to play with Windows then according to both MS and Apple you should buy PC instead.

About forgetting - Apple also forgot about all people still relying on PPC apps when they removed Rosetta relatively shortly after introducing Intel Macs - company sadly has a long history of forgetting such things and this year's announcement about Bootcamp going to be removed completely from new Macs seem to be sound with Apple's history sadly.

As for TESO on ARM Macs this Is still to be seen I guess. As I already said pretty much no company (with an exception of MS) has so far announced any plans for it which ofc does not mean they are not evaluating it. It is just that nobody really knows what to expect from this move sadly.

And one more thing. Even if there is a Bootcamp on ARM Macs then keep in mind that those Windows apps will not run most likely anyway. MS would have to provide translation layer between x64 and ARM which they don't btw - Rosetta 2 as far as we know is fully software based solution and therefore will work only with Mac apps. Also for ARM based Windows they have so far solution fat binary or dedicated set of binaries instead which means it is up to every particular developer if they want to really support it.

Calm_Fury · October 2020

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Well then here is that thing. MS has little reason to release Windows dedicated for Macs and Apple's politics on this matter are also clear - then only supported system is macOS and no other system is going to be supported. Bootcamp is being removed with Macs introduced probably later this year or some time Q1 2021. So for that reason if you want to play with Windows then according to both MS and Apple you should buy PC instead.

About forgetting - Apple also forgot about all people still relying on PPC apps when they removed Rosetta relatively shortly after introducing Intel Macs - company sadly has a long history of forgetting such things and this year's announcement about Bootcamp going to be removed completely from new Macs seem to be sound with Apple's history sadly.

As for TESO on ARM Macs this Is still to be seen I guess. As I already said pretty much no company (with an exception of MS) has so far announced any plans for it which ofc does not mean they are not evaluating it. It is just that nobody really knows what to expect from this move sadly.

And one more thing. Even if there is a Bootcamp on ARM Macs then keep in mind that those Windows apps will not run most likely anyway. MS would have to provide translation layer between x64 and ARM which they don't btw - Rosetta 2 as far as we know is fully software based solution and therefore will work only with Mac apps. Also for ARM based Windows they have so far solution fat binary or dedicated set of binaries instead which means it is up to every particular developer if they want to really support it.

Yes, I agree with everything you said.

My main point is, Apple doesn't plan to support Bootcamp on ARM Macs NOW. Microsoft has no plan to make a translation layer to run x64 apps on ARM Windows NOW.

What I was trying to say is that once ARM Macs hit the shelves and start to gain a lot of market share, most of those things might change. It will definitely be a multi-year thing. Right now it is not worth it for both companies to invest in this, but it might be soon.

My hope is that Apple will launch a revolutionary Macbook Air or something with a battery that lasts 2 or more days. Then it will sell like crazy and ARM programs and x64 to ARM translation efforts will start being financially viable.

If you have been a Mac user for a long time you probably know show awful Office products were on macOS. MS simply didn't care. Then Macs became a very important market, MS changed strategies and now Office on macOS is actually pretty good, to the point where you don't really need Bootcamp to do serious work like we did in 2010 or so.

I'll keep an eye on it, though. ESO has been running incredibly well for me on my 2014 Macbook Pro (only with Bootcamp/Windows, the Mac version itself runs horribly). I was planing to switch Macs but I want to keep playing ESO as well, so I probably will skip ARM Macs for the first wave (or, if they are really that much better, I'll just invest in a very cheap PC just for ESO once I switch).

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

Actually that is on a side note a good point about MacBook Air. 2 days (48 hours of constant work) might be a tough thing to achieve but getting rid of x64 may actually increase its battery life for a few hours.

Gattopardo · October 2020

Calm_Fury wrote: »

What I was trying to say is that once ARM Macs hit the shelves and start to gain a lot of market share, most of those things might change. It will definitely be a multi-year thing. Right now it is not worth it for both companies to invest in this, but it might be soon.

I mean sure that could happen, but that is probably years into the future, and considering how ESO is going ("cashcow") I don't really see them investing more money into it than now in the foreseeable future especially for the low percentage of players that are on mac, they rather stop supporting the mac client and tell us to go to Stadia if that is still around

alterfenixeb17_ESO · October 2020

Gattopardo wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

What I was trying to say is that once ARM Macs hit the shelves and start to gain a lot of market share, most of those things might change. It will definitely be a multi-year thing. Right now it is not worth it for both companies to invest in this, but it might be soon.

I mean sure that could happen, but that is probably years into the future, and considering how ESO is going ("cashcow") I don't really see them investing more money into it than now in the foreseeable future especially for the low percentage of players that are on mac, they rather stop supporting the mac client and tell us to go to Stadia if that is still around

Within next (I believe) 2 years every new Mac is supposed to be ARM. That means this is ofc still years ahead but probably less than 5 really. Also about this investment it depends a lot on how much changes will be required and second things is it may be that most stuff will be about MoltenVK (which already runs with those ARM devices controlled by Darwin). For all we can tell at this point (considering not many people really worked with those Macs as of yet) it may not be that big investment after all.