DW Vs 2H for pvp - Stam

Sunderling · October 2020

Hello.

I've been brushing up a lot on pve stuff. Looking now at pvp. Wondering, is DW viable over 2H? I have a stamblade I'd like to play as DW, very quick burst and abusing guise a lot mid-fight if possible to lose target/flank as much as I can... but I had questions about 2h as well:

I find skills like Killer's Blade to be replaced in 2H with Executioner... and yet I don't see a lot of Dizzy in guides for 2H NB, where they still use Surprise Attack. What's the reason for this? Sometimes it feels like it's less about classes and more about what weapon is meta to use.

I'd really like to go DW Stamblade for pvp, pve, everything and I know that's a little unreasonable... I really do intend to do the hardest content I can and I want to be a very good nightblade in pvp.. it just seems like what I want to do/am used to doing isn't as viable as orientating myself around a 2H build the same as I did on my DK... it feels like playing the same character despite the class skills.

Any advice to part A and insight to part B?

Jman100582 · October 2020

PVP perspective

The reason most stamblades opt for 2h over dw is that it is easier to animation cancel surprise attack. And bow light attacks are by far the easiest to land out of all the stam weapons, allowing you to get mericless stacks more easily.

dw is used frontbar for s2w, bombing, and some stamplars run it too since it's easy to animation cancel jabs with dw. Is it viable for stamblade? Probably. The only point would be for the ruffian passives that u can get, and maybe bloodcraze. But that skill really isn't the best anymore, it's just ok. Either way it's worth a try

Sunderling · October 2020

Thank you I appreciate that. I know how to weave light attacks but I don't think I knew I could ani cancel surprise attack. How does one do that?

That being said, this basically answers my questions. Thanks

cheesefome · October 2020

Ive done a TON of DW and 2h PvP and from my experience the biggest reason is rally ánd the fact that you'll burn through stamina quicker as DW. Also, its cheaper to gold 1 2H weapon than 2 single handed weapons. Rally is simply too good of a skill to overlook. It has 3 abilities in 1 and 1 of those is a game changing heal burst.

From my understanding, once upon a time dw was more viable than 2h but that is no longer the case. In every aspect 2H is better than DW, trust me, ive done countless and countless and countlessssss vigours tests. I pray one day dw will be just as viable as ive alwsays been an assassin character type and despite above fact i will play dw from time to time BUT honestly if you are playing against actual good players, they will eat you alive without rally.

Bloodcraze isnt even remotely enough, its not even a close equal to rally. They really need to rework dw.

Tigerboy78 · October 2020

Is Rally that much better than Forward Momentum? I would think the heal wouldn't be as needed as the snare removal.

UntilValhalla13 · October 2020

Tigerboy78 wrote: »

Is Rally that much better than Forward Momentum? I would think the heal wouldn't be as needed as the snare removal.

I've seen quite a few pvp stam builds run Race Against Time now over Forward Momentum.

hakan · October 2020

Tigerboy78 wrote: »

Is Rally that much better than Forward Momentum? I would think the heal wouldn't be as needed as the snare removal.

for snare removal try Shuffle. its also great against blastbones, jabs, leap, dawnbreaker.

Rally's heal is huge. its burst heal and definitely needed. vigor isnt enough on its own.

MentalxHammer · October 2020

Jman100582 wrote: »

PVP perspective

The reason most stamblades opt for 2h over dw is that it is easier to animation cancel surprise attack. And bow light attacks are by far the easiest to land out of all the stam weapons, allowing you to get mericless stacks more easily.

dw is used frontbar for s2w, bombing, and some stamplars run it too since it's easy to animation cancel jabs with dw. Is it viable for stamblade? Probably. The only point would be for the ruffian passives that u can get, and maybe bloodcraze. But that skill really isn't the best anymore, it's just ok. Either way it's worth a try

Sunderling wrote: »

Thank you I appreciate that. I know how to weave light attacks but I don't think I knew I could ani cancel surprise attack. How does one do that?

That being said, this basically answers my questions. Thanks

The weapon type you are using has nothing to do with how fast/slow you are able to animation cancel a skill. This is misinformation. Regarding how to ani cancel skills @Sunderling, a dodge roll, bash, or weapon swap will instantly ani cancel a skill, and force the damage check of damage skills. It is possible to block cancel skills, but you must use timing to block towards the end of the animation, this got nerfed a while ago and is now a little less applicable.

The main reason to run 2H over DW in PvP is rally, and dizzying swing if you need a spammable. 5/6 classes dont have access to an instant cast burst heal, which is necessary in pvp, rally fills this hole. Additionally, rally provides a source of major brutality, which is an essential buff.

Swomp23 · October 2020

I just watched a YT video comparing rending slashes with master dw and surprise attack. Conclusion was that rending slashes was dealing slightly more dmg than surprise attack, without the advantage without the resistance debuff. Conclusion was that rending slashes (with master dw) was a very viable spammable for anyone tired of dizzy. So, any class without a class spammable (everyone but nb and temp) could run this.
2 drawbacks : 1st, you have to run master dw frontbar, so you need a set that you can backbar only, or you need to drop your monster set. 2nd, like everyone else said, you lose rally, maybe the best pvp skill in game. Sorc has crit surge, dk has armaments, warden has netch, but none of those are as good as rally.

Wandering_Immigrant · October 2020

DW works great for stamblade.

The reason you don't see NBs running dizzy is because surprise attack hits hard, it's instant and it can stun and off-balance. The only thing dizzy has over SA is a bit of range.

The reason you do see them run Executioner is because it's bonus damage starts at 50% and scales up the lower your target's health is, while Killer's Blade your target has to be bellow 25% for it to kick in at all. KB is great in PVE boss fights with millions of health, but against someone with 25k health you'd have to get them to about 6k to get the bonus damage, most people aren't going to sit that low without healing so you're better off just throwing another SA at them, or executioner if you're 2h.

The main thing you lose going DW is the rally heal, but you'll have cloak and the best self healing ultimate in the game.

Tigerboy78 · October 2020

Question. If you recast Rally while the buff is still up does the skill still heal you? Or do you have to wait for it to end?

master_vanargand · October 2020

Dual Wield's passive abilities are junk compared to Two-Handed.
Please change Dual Wield's Ruffian to WHILE DUAL WIELDING.

MentalxHammer · October 2020

Tigerboy78 wrote: »

Question. If you recast Rally while the buff is still up does the skill still heal you? Or do you have to wait for it to end?

Yes it does. The healing received scales up with the time the buff has elapsed.

hakan · October 2020

Tigerboy78 wrote: »

Question. If you recast Rally while the buff is still up does the skill still heal you? Or do you have to wait for it to end?

of course it does! thats one the reasons why its great. after like 10-12 seconds you can cast it again to get a worthwhile heal. recasting too early like 5 seconds isnt good but still a 3-4k burst heal at worst.

Mystikkal · October 2020

As someone who plays top MMR BGs, I can tell you that 2H is generally worse than DW.

It is very hard to land dizzy swings in a BG full of good players.

Cheers,
Mystikkal

Tigerboy78 · October 2020

So now I want to try DW instead of 2H. My main question would be should I use rending slashes or flurry? Whirling blades will be my execute ability. I'm not sure if I should use a quick cloak or deadly cloak though. This is for PVP

Dunning_Kruger · October 2020

Mystikkal wrote: »

As someone who plays top MMR BGs, I can tell you that 2H is generally worse than DW.

It is very hard to land dizzy swings in a BG full of good players.

Cheers,
Mystikkal

Well unless you are NB then you prolly use 2h for passives and rally and executioner.

But *** is dizzy dog *** for high mmr bgs.

fred4 · October 2020

cheesefome wrote: »

Ive done a TON of DW and 2h PvP and from my experience the biggest reason is rally ánd the fact that you'll burn through stamina quicker as DW. Rally is simply too good of a skill to overlook. It has 3 abilities in 1 and 1 of those is a game changing heal burst.

This. End of story. I would say DW is viable on stamsorc. That's about it.

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

I've seen quite a few pvp stam builds run Race Against Time now over Forward Momentum.

I'd use Shuffle into a dodge roll on the bow bar. I suppose RAT has the Minor Force going for it, but it's a mag skill. Not an expensive one, but still. I'd prioritise mag for Shadow Image and Cloak unless I was specifically using RAT in a high crit damage build, stacking with the Shadow mundus and other crit buffs.

fred4 · October 2020

Swomp23 wrote: »

I just watched a YT video comparing rending slashes with master dw and surprise attack. Conclusion was that rending slashes was dealing slightly more dmg than surprise attack, without the advantage without the resistance debuff. Conclusion was that rending slashes (with master dw) was a very viable spammable for anyone tired of dizzy. So, any class without a class spammable (everyone but nb and temp) could run this.

I wonder how old that video was, since Master weapons have had changes. Using that as a spammable is IMO part of a DOT strategy and for lack of bar space. Aside from the flanking buff, you forgot about the stun and off balance from Surprise Attack as well as the Shadow passive which keeps you major resistance buff up.

2 drawbacks : 1st, you have to run master dw frontbar, so you need a set that you can backbar only, or you need to drop your monster set.

More to the point, you drop your mythic. If you want to use a mythic - speed is highly effective on NB - you're already down to a front bar / back bar strategy in order to keep a monster set.

2nd, like everyone else said, you lose rally, maybe the best pvp skill in game. Sorc has crit surge

This is the one class where I find DW viable for a number of additional reasons. Flurry is 5 strikes, thus 5 chances to crit and activate Crit Surge. Bound Armaments is a tough passive skill to pass up, yielding +20% stam regen, compared to Rally's 10%, and yielding 20% health regen, making a health-regen strategy viable (with atro on back bar) along with Eternal Vigor, which supports Streak and Dark Deal. Yet Rally is still a good contender.

dk has armaments

Yikes. Maybe in a group, but solo or small scale that skill just does too little.

warden has netch, but none of those are as good as rally.

Yeah. I'd run the netch AND Rally on warden. Netch is sustain while blocking or sprinting and it's a purge. You still need an additional heal to Vigor. Soothing Spores is expensive and doesn't do anything else. Rally gives you more sustain.

fred4 · October 2020

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

The main thing you lose going DW is the rally heal, but you'll have cloak and the best self healing ultimate in the game.

This is not good reasoning in my book. Defensive ultimates are only for emergencies and nightblade burst is particularly closely linked to their offensive ultimate: Incap Strike. I know the nightblades who don't have Rally all too well. They're the ones who die. OK, that's hyperbole, but I fear the stamblade who coolly casts a Rally and gets right back on attack more.

fred4 · October 2020

Tigerboy78 wrote: »

Question. If you recast Rally while the buff is still up does the skill still heal you? Or do you have to wait for it to end?

It heals you. The amount is proportional to how long Rally was active, however recasting Rally early, but not immediately, is the normal way to use it.

rogenep360 · October 2020

I play as a dw/bow stamdk but have always played 2h, I can tell u 2h is a lot better at least for this class, rally is just too good and desync swing hits stupdly hard,snares, stuns and desyncs ur health, dw can be pretty fun but its way behind 2h for pvp thats why everyone and their mothers use it

fred4 · October 2020

rogenep360 wrote: »

I play as a dw/bow stamdk but have always played 2h, I can tell u 2h is a lot better at least for this class, rally is just too good and desync swing hits stupdly hard,snares, stuns and desyncs ur health, dw can be pretty fun but its way behind 2h for pvp thats why everyone and their mothers use it

I actually used to play DW with a 2H back bar years ago, which I gravitated towards on my stam DK before I knew what the word "meta" meant. I had Crit Rush on the back bar, then I'd Fossilize people and start spamming Bloodthirst and Viper procs. I still like Fossilize as a skill, but find it exceedingly hard to integrate into a competitive build. I also used Reflective Scales at the time. Even when that was a powerful reflect, it took so much magicka sustain on a stam DK, you just couldn't become truly competitive. Just Fossilize alone isn't truly viable without some magicka sustain above base, but as stam DK is fairly rounded already without that skill, you're kind of gimping yourself by using it. These days I think you can't really beat a 2H front bar with a 1H + Shield back bar on that class. The latter to mesh with DKs blocking passive, although there is that Potatohunter 2.0 build, which apparently works. Now stamsorc is an entirely different proposition...

hakan · October 2020

i guess next patch it will be snb and 2h since pierce armor getting both major/minor pen. combine that with either dsa snb or new vate arena snb and backbar is vate 2h.

rogenep360 · October 2020

fred4 wrote: »

rogenep360 wrote: »

I play as a dw/bow stamdk but have always played 2h, I can tell u 2h is a lot better at least for this class, rally is just too good and desync swing hits stupdly hard,snares, stuns and desyncs ur health, dw can be pretty fun but its way behind 2h for pvp thats why everyone and their mothers use it

I actually used to play DW with a 2H back bar years ago, which I gravitated towards on my stam DK before I knew what the word "meta" meant. I had Crit Rush on the back bar, then I'd Fossilize people and start spamming Bloodthirst and Viper procs. I still like Fossilize as a skill, but find it exceedingly hard to integrate into a competitive build. I also used Reflective Scales at the time. Even when that was a powerful reflect, it took so much magicka sustain on a stam DK, you just couldn't become truly competitive. Just Fossilize alone isn't truly viable without some magicka sustain above base, but as stam DK is fairly rounded already without that skill, you're kind of gimping yourself by using it. These days I think you can't really beat a 2H front bar with a 1H + Shield back bar on that class. The latter to mesh with DKs blocking passive, although there is that Potatohunter 2.0 build, which apparently works. Now stamsorc is an entirely different proposition...

I do use fossilize as a stun, also use green dragon blood, spike armor and molten armaments and can sustain magicka pretty well with eternal vigor and tri stat food, I know dw/bow is far from meta in pvp but just trying to have fun, got bored of the typical 2h/snb desync swing meta XD

Bucky_13 · October 2020

Tigerboy78 wrote: »

Is Rally that much better than Forward Momentum? I would think the heal wouldn't be as needed as the snare removal.

It is that good, pop vigor, cloak, then rally and I'm back to full health while being attacked when I'm solo. As other have said, Race Against Time works very well for snare removal, with the additional bonus of giving extra crit damage and a movement speed bonus. Rally is the reason I prefer 2h over DW as nothing DW has to offer can compete with it.