Werewolves are not mortals?

Ryuvain · October 2020

Apparently while learning as much as I could about my favorite blessed monsters I remembered two things that made me question their mortality.

One is the question of the werewolf afterlife. We know you go to his hunting grounds but apparently you aren't a ghost there? That was during a hunt though but some enemies seem to hint that they live in the hunting grounds instead. Like that werebear.

The other major one and even more important oddity is that during your conversation with Exarch Ulfra while playing Verandis you bring up caring about mortals. Makes sense when a vampire says it but she responds by saying that she's glad she's no longer mortal and that Hircine is the one who empowered her. What? I don't think it's a typo because of the many sentences she says.

Does this mean werewolves live forever until killed? That would be amazingly cool to add to their lore, but before I cite it as canon I wanted to ask lore pros first.

Since ESO came after other elder scrolls games I guess this is what's canon for now? They did state that hearsay and actually seeing something are completely different. Ulfra is as legit as you can get to be honest. I don't think other games delved into werewolf as much. But I could be wrong.

So what's fact? I'd love for this to be canon but I'm not going to assume it until confirmed.

Kind of makes sense if you think about it like soul shriven and vampires. You die and return to the daedric lords realm. But you aren't truly dead? More like you can't escape.

Benzux · October 2020

Lycanthropes are not regular mortals, at the very least, but they are still mortal, in that they can die via natural causes (except diseases, as their beast blood makes them immune to those). The Daedric curse of Lycanthropy makes them more powerful than mortals, but they are not in the same category as Vampires in terms of immortality, as evidenced by Kodlak White-Mane, the Harbinger of the Companions in TESV: Skyrim. He has evidently grown old, and wishes to cure his lycanthropy before his time ends so he can go to Sovngarde, instead of being "condemned" to the Hunting Grounds. In that way, I suppose one could view Lycanthropes as "immortal", as their hunt continues even after death for all eternity in the Hunting Grounds. But if we take the afterlife into consideration regarding what is and isn't "immortal" in the Elder Scrolls universe, most mortals could be considered "immortal", as pretty much every mortal race has some belief about an Afterlife (which, this being a fantasy world, we can safely say those beliefs are true).

I also found the interaction between Verandis and Ulfgra during the Markarth prologue interesting. I'd suspect that what Verandis meant by saying "you were once mortal" was essentially him telling her that she was once as weak as the ones who she now hunts - not necessarily referring to her possibly being ageless. But, there is also the matter of her lycanthropy. She's not just a Werewolf, but a werewolf behemoth. We don't know much about the nature of behemoths, but judging by what we do know, we can assume they are "specially" blessed by Hircine. Lycanthropy already affects mortals even when they are not transformed, so perhaps this "special" strain of lycanthropy affects the lifespan as well.

Ryuvain · October 2020

Benzux wrote: »

Lycanthropes are not regular mortals, at the very least, but they are still mortal, in that they can die via natural causes (except diseases, as their beast blood makes them immune to those). The Daedric curse of Lycanthropy makes them more powerful than mortals, but they are not in the same category as Vampires in terms of immortality, as evidenced by Kodlak White-Mane, the Harbinger of the Companions in TESV: Skyrim. He has evidently grown old, and wishes to cure his lycanthropy before his time ends so he can go to Sovngarde, instead of being "condemned" to the Hunting Grounds. In that way, I suppose one could view Lycanthropes as "immortal", as their hunt continues even after death for all eternity in the Hunting Grounds. But if we take the afterlife into consideration regarding what is and isn't "immortal" in the Elder Scrolls universe, most mortals could be considered "immortal", as pretty much every mortal race has some belief about an Afterlife (which, this being a fantasy world, we can safely say those beliefs are true).

I also found the interaction between Verandis and Ulfgra during the Markarth prologue interesting. I'd suspect that what Verandis meant by saying "you were once mortal" was essentially him telling her that she was once as weak as the ones who she now hunts - not necessarily referring to her possibly being ageless. But, there is also the matter of her lycanthropy. She's not just a Werewolf, but a werewolf behemoth. We don't know much about the nature of behemoths, but judging by what we do know, we can assume they are "specially" blessed by Hircine. Lycanthropy already affects mortals even when they are not transformed, so perhaps this "special" strain of lycanthropy affects the lifespan as well.

True about behemoth, we still know next to nothing on it. How she speaks of mortals just seems so off, like shes completely unrelated to them. There's also normal werewolves around her so she doesn't seem to be speaking mainly about only behemoth being non-mortal.

Also on the souls bit, most die and basically never return in any form unless undead. Werewolves in Hircines realm don't appear to be ghostly or undead at all. In that sense they don't truly die like soul shriven. They might also be constantly reborn in Hircines realm like Coldharbour.

Also about Skyrim: later games can freely overwrite lore easily. Kodlak could've simply been talking about being killed in combat, no true confirmation about the aging part. At least imo.

Aigym_Hlervu · October 2020

Hello, Ryuvain! Could you explain these two parts a bit better, cause I can't make a link between them:

Ryuvain wrote: »

The other major one and even more important oddity is that during your conversation with Exarch Ulfra while playing Verandis you bring up caring about mortals. Makes sense when a vampire says it but she responds by saying that she's glad she's no longer mortal and that Hircine is the one who empowered her. What? I don't think it's a typo because of the many sentences she says. Does this mean werewolves live forever until killed?

I can't see the logic, because to me it was very clear: Ulfra said to Verandis when he mentioned her mortality - "Lord Hircine made me one of his most powerful hunters because he knew mortality restricted me. I could not reach my full potential until he rescued me from that fate".
To me this means that Hircine made her immortal. Her personally, because there's not a word regarding anyone other. It's not the first time Hircine does this though, you just remember our friend Tharsten Heart-Fang from the Third Era - "For generations, I have led the Skaal, the Ring of Hircine on my finger, granting me eternal life".
Another example is Vykosa, who was "one of the first to receive the curse of lycanthropy from Hircine" as the legend says it - "Vykosa never wanted this curse. Hircine forced it upon her. Forced this never ending life of anger. Of pain".
They all are outstantding, extraordinary werewolves who were granted immortality personally. And they all tell it directly. What made you think of Hircine granting that gift to all the werewolves?

dazee · October 2020

Some mortals literally slay werewolves and vampires for a living and are quite good at it, I wouldn't say vampires and werewolves are automatically more powerful. On average perhaps but a well trained and strong mortal can absolutely be a terror for them. especially when they know all the weak points.

Ryuvain · October 2020

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Hello, Ryuvain! Could you explain these two parts a bit better, cause I can't make a link between them:

Ryuvain wrote: »

The other major one and even more important oddity is that during your conversation with Exarch Ulfra while playing Verandis you bring up caring about mortals. Makes sense when a vampire says it but she responds by saying that she's glad she's no longer mortal and that Hircine is the one who empowered her. What? I don't think it's a typo because of the many sentences she says. Does this mean werewolves live forever until killed?

I can't see the logic, because to me it was very clear: Ulfra said to Verandis when he mentioned her mortality - "Lord Hircine made me one of his most powerful hunters because he knew mortality restricted me. I could not reach my full potential until he rescued me from that fate".
To me this means that Hircine made her immortal. Her personally, because there's not a word regarding anyone other. It's not the first time Hircine does this though, you just remember our friend Tharsten Heart-Fang from the Third Era - "For generations, I have led the Skaal, the Ring of Hircine on my finger, granting me eternal life".
Another example is Vykosa, who was "one of the first to receive the curse of lycanthropy from Hircine" as the legend says it - "Vykosa never wanted this curse. Hircine forced it upon her. Forced this never ending life of anger. Of pain".
They all are outstantding, extraordinary werewolves who were granted immortality personally. And they all tell it directly. What made you think of Hircine granting that gift to all the werewolves?

They don't exactly say that she's specially immortal compared to all werewolves, but the phrasing there seems to imply its not only her?

From conversation:

You were mortal once.

"As were you, until Molag Bal made you into something more. Something worthy.
Lord Hircine made me one of his most powerful hunters because he knew mortality restricted me. I could not reach my full potential until he rescued me from that fate."

All I suggest is that we live in peace with mortals. They outnumber us, after all.

Verandis seems to be talking about mortals as if there are none even remotely around them when Ulfra has her entire pack there for the meeting. It could go either way, but I dont think the Grey Host would be hating mortals that hard if a part of their entire alliance was mortal. Would honestly defeat the purpose of calling all mortals your enemy.

Also Tharsten wasnt mentioning that werewolves were normally mortal either. He just stating that he was immortal. They could've also retconned that part as well.

He does prove that immortality for werewolves does have a base though. Same with Vykosa.

ArcaneScientius · October 2020

Fortunately Elder Scrolls provides for both cases to be true. It is purposefully non-specific and often contradictory with no resolution in sight, nor probably ever. Just the way we like it.

Tl;dr: Ulfra not normal werewolf.
Firstly, Ulfra is no normal werewolf. She might have been a werewolf before she was chosen by Hircine and gifted with might far beyond "normal" werewolves. She is a behemoth, but more than that she is a daedra's chosen. This may swing things into the biologically immortal does not age realm.

However, Gwendis' dialogue in the greymoor prologue quest does seem to indicate that both vampires and werewolves are not "mortal", though we have no definition for what that means; changed by a daedra? actually unageing? Only unageing as long as they keep hunting, eating and winning? Do they get to come back?

The werewolf raised from the dead in the DC arc does not gives us insight either way. Makes you wonder why Verandis had to make those glowing pot-things. He could just have asked his local necromancer. Maybe it has something with pulling their whole might/power/memories+skills back from the Hunting Grounds or Coldharbour, but does this still mean they hold the favour of their deity/daemonic patron? IDK.

But, there is some credence to the angle that they would be functionally immortal, as in do not age. Daedra are not mortal. They can "die" and leave physical corpses, but get to come back after an indeterminate amount of time growing a new form in the grey maybe and/or their patron's realm.

Maybe the Greymoor process is to rapidly get the chaotic accretion thing going so that they can be summoned with their full might and still with the same favour of their patron they died with. IDK.

Further, while vampires are gifted with powers and unending life, we have many precedents that they do not age normally. Most of the power of an ancient vampire is because they can take as much time as they like honing their skills and gathering skyshards/armour sets.

Tl;dr: werewolves may have a different method for staying young/not ageing.
This is not the same for a werewolf. They must typically hunt and kill (in the first games it had to be an innocent (good luck finding one of those in the average city)), and as they feed they gain powers. Maybe this is the same as earning the favour of Hircine. IDK. Maybe Kodlak just did not want to eat sentients while in werewolf form, and that is why he aged. IDK.

So, if you want your werewolf toon to be immortal, just say you are massively favoured by Hircine (or some other angle), or you can say that you can feel age creep up on you as a werewolf and you dream of entering the Hunting Grounds after your death to hunt for all eternity with your pack.

Ryuvain · October 2020

ArcaneScientius wrote: »

Fortunately Elder Scrolls provides for both cases to be true. It is purposefully non-specific and often contradictory with no resolution in sight, nor probably ever. Just the way we like it.

Tl;dr: Ulfra not normal werewolf.
Firstly, Ulfra is no normal werewolf. She might have been a werewolf before she was chosen by Hircine and gifted with might far beyond "normal" werewolves. She is a behemoth, but more than that she is a daedra's chosen. This may swing things into the biologically immortal does not age realm.

However, Gwendis' dialogue in the greymoor prologue quest does seem to indicate that both vampires and werewolves are not "mortal", though we have no definition for what that means; changed by a daedra? actually unageing? Only unageing as long as they keep hunting, eating and winning? Do they get to come back?

The werewolf raised from the dead in the DC arc does not gives us insight either way. Makes you wonder why Verandis had to make those glowing pot-things. He could just have asked his local necromancer. Maybe it has something with pulling their whole might/power/memories+skills back from the Hunting Grounds or Coldharbour, but does this still mean they hold the favour of their deity/daemonic patron? IDK.

But, there is some credence to the angle that they would be functionally immortal, as in do not age. Daedra are not mortal. They can "die" and leave physical corpses, but get to come back after an indeterminate amount of time growing a new form in the grey maybe and/or their patron's realm.

Maybe the Greymoor process is to rapidly get the chaotic accretion thing going so that they can be summoned with their full might and still with the same favour of their patron they died with. IDK.

Further, while vampires are gifted with powers and unending life, we have many precedents that they do not age normally. Most of the power of an ancient vampire is because they can take as much time as they like honing their skills and gathering skyshards/armour sets.

Tl;dr: werewolves may have a different method for staying young/not ageing.
This is not the same for a werewolf. They must typically hunt and kill (in the first games it had to be an innocent (good luck finding one of those in the average city)), and as they feed they gain powers. Maybe this is the same as earning the favour of Hircine. IDK. Maybe Kodlak just did not want to eat sentients while in werewolf form, and that is why he aged. IDK.

So, if you want your werewolf toon to be immortal, just say you are massively favoured by Hircine (or some other angle), or you can say that you can feel age creep up on you as a werewolf and you dream of entering the Hunting Grounds after your death to hunt for all eternity with your pack.

Yeah, there's pretty much not enough proof to go either way with it. It's proven that some are immortal but they keep generalizing most werewolves as such by their use of mortal. Could be incidental or coincidence. Who knows, but you brought up a lot of great points.