How is DPS this low on CP 500+ toons?

ForeverJenn · October 2020

So I levelled a tank over the weekend. Several times, while doing my random normal dungeons, I'd get groups of 3 500+CP. These groups were pulling 5-8k dps as a group, with me doing about 40% as a tank. How is this even possible? I am asking because I only tank and heal and am 810+ and my friends range from 18k to 60k per person. How are ppl this high doing less dps then my lowbie tank? I just wonder how this is possible, as I'm not dps, but even if I do try, I can at least pull 18k without knowing what I'm doing. Bots maybe?

dazee · October 2020

maybe? or maybe they just don't have a clue how the game works, and cant read, at least not english.

ForeverJenn · October 2020

It just baffles me. I understand one person not understanding. But all three?

Mindcr0w · October 2020

If you are a relatively competent player who mainly plays with other relatively competent players then you may find your expectations of the abilities of the average player to be highly skewed.

The fact is that it has become so quick and easy to reach level 50, and then moderately high cp, that it is entirely possible, and even likely, that a significant percentage of the playerbase will achieve a respectable amount of cp while having no freaking clue what they are doing. Likely they don't even know they are bad as Dunning Kruger will be in full effect.

The number one complaint I hear from my guildies who main tanks is that when they pug from outside the guild their dungeons take forever. A skilled dps can brute force their way through a lot of dungeon content even if they are grouped with utter potatoes. A similarly skilled tank will struggle to do the same as while they may be nigh unkillable they also struggle to kill.

mairwen85 · October 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

If you are a relatively competent player who mainly plays with other relatively competent players then you may find your expectations of the abilities of the average player to be highly skewed.

The fact is that it has become so quick and easy to reach level 50, and then moderately high cp, that it is entirely possible, and even likely, that a significant percentage of the playerbase will achieve a respectable amount of cp while having no freaking clue what they are doing. Likely they don't even know they are bad as Dunning Kruger will be in full effect.

The number one complaint I hear from my guildies who main tanks is that when they pug from outside the guild their dungeons take forever. A skilled dps can brute force their way through a lot of dungeon content even if they are grouped with utter potatoes. A similarly skilled tank will struggle to do the same as while they may be nigh unkillable they also struggle to kill.

This.

ForeverJenn · October 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

If you are a relatively competent player who mainly plays with other relatively competent players then you may find your expectations of the abilities of the average player to be highly skewed.

The fact is that it has become so quick and easy to reach level 50, and then moderately high cp, that it is entirely possible, and even likely, that a significant percentage of the playerbase will achieve a respectable amount of cp while having no freaking clue what they are doing. Likely they don't even know they are bad as Dunning Kruger will be in full effect.

The number one complaint I hear from my guildies who main tanks is that when they pug from outside the guild their dungeons take forever. A skilled dps can brute force their way through a lot of dungeon content even if they are grouped with utter potatoes. A similarly skilled tank will struggle to do the same as while they may be nigh unkillable they also struggle to kill.

Thank you for that. I know I could fake tank and get us through a lot quicker, but I decided to go as legit tank. These were the results I got and I just couldn't understand how ppl at CP 500 to 750 even got to that point. But you bring up a good point. Easy levelling and no clue on how to spend skill points or champ points. Maybe never getting off their starter gear. Thanks.

NoSoup · October 2020

You're doing random normals, what do you expect?

Iselin · October 2020

It really doesn't take that long to have 500 CP. Players at that level might only have been playing the game for a month or two, may be playing it "their own way" with mismatched sets in green or blue quality, the wrong food or drink, etc.

When I heal PUGs I often get players with CP that high or even 810 standing behind me pew pewing light attacks from distance and not getting any of the ground targeted heals or buffs.

Don't assume anything in PUGs based on CP.

zvavi · October 2020

You will be surprised but a lot of max CP are not better. The real issue is no proper in-game tutorials... For all roles. The "play how you want" mantra brings a lot of people that feel entitled to be carried while they don't pull their weight. I mean, when the outcome is either your group can't pull through or carries you, what are you doing in group content?

Edit: sry a bit salty for the bow light attack spammer I encountered in castlethorn

caperb · October 2020

You can come quite far without even doing group content in this game.

My first two characters I just played through the game with and l was probably cp 400 when I completed that, only sporadically did group content before that. Though I don't think stuff like xp scrolls existed then.

Back when I started everyone put half their attribute points in health on their stamblade, because you did the same in previous elder scrolls series. Only to later discover the group couldn't pass the bloodspawn DPS test. My sorc had a resto backbar because I thought I could slot the destro skills on front bar anyway, but I didn't even use them because I thought they were weak, only used pulsar. And why slot a shield when you have a healing staff backbar?

A lot of things about the game are not so easily learned in the game if you just follow the story like you did in other TES games. People can be cp 500, or maybe higher with all the xp buffs we got today, but still need to learn to play. And they're not to blame, they probably didn't had to till then. But you can blame them when they don't try!

Kiralyn2000 · October 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

The fact is that it has become so quick and easy to reach level 50, and then moderately high cp, that it is entirely possible, and even likely, that a significant percentage of the playerbase will achieve a respectable amount of cp while having no freaking clue what they are doing. Likely they don't even know they are bad as Dunning Kruger will be in full effect.

Even if you take two years to make it to Lv50/CP500, you can still not know "how the game works" if you haven't done any group content in those two years.

Even if you've got a reasonable build, and know to eat food, and have good traits... if you don't know weaving & rotations, it doesn't matter. And the game doesn't teach that at any level.

(heck, there's a lot of people who've never done any testing on a target dummy. I know I haven't. But I also know my DPS would suck, and I have no interest in doing group content, so it doesn't matter. I quest, and explore, and craft, and house, and holiday. I don't dungeon/trial/PvP. The idea of standing at a target dummy and pressing the same buttons over and over for however many million damage, and then doing it again and again and again to try for better numbers... sounds unbelievably mind-numbing to me. But I've never enjoyed "Big Boss Fight" in any game - which I why I also don't play *Souls, or Boss Fight:The Game Monster Hunter, or anything like that. Boss fights are annoying roadblocks in otherwise fun story-based RPGs and adventure games.)

Kurat · October 2020

NoSoup wrote: »

You're doing random normals, what do you expect?

Lol. I tanked vDoM the other day and we had cp 600ish dps in group wearing ebon and s&b. I asked if he queued for wrong role by accident or something but no, he said survivability matters to him lol. Group dps was barely 20k but we managed to clear it after 2 hours. Dont ask why I stayed coz I dont know lol.

kargen27 · October 2020

Go to Alik'r desert or Craglorn and you will have your answer. Players quickly level their characters not taking the time to learn anything other than maybe one skill and a heavy attack. It amazes me sometimes when I see a player with high CP standing somewhere way behind me (I usually heal) lobbing arrows at the boss. Gets really entertaining when they get an ad or two on them and run around like their hair is on fire.

Mik195 · October 2020

CP just reflects time played, not skill. I was close to 900 before ever setting foot in a group dungeon (with the exception of literally setting foot to start undaunted). I've now soloed (well, bear does the hard stuff) up to Crypt of Hearts, but am no way near good enough to subject a group to my play. So if I ever pugged, it would be with high CP and no knowledge.

AndrewQ84 · October 2020

I've said this before many many times. High CP means NOTHING! Skill in a class is not determined by cp, it's the player. Never assume that just because you have high cp toons in your party that it will go smoothly. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Rexy18 · October 2020

This is one of the things I always found fascinating about randoms, how is it physically possible to reach numbers that low. You get 15k on a non-raid dummy from LAs (just LAs, no skills, pots, ultis or buffs). Doing <10k DPS seems harder to achieve than 90k+.

CaffeinatedMayhem · October 2020

Iselin wrote: »

It really doesn't take that long to have 500 CP. Players at that level might only have been playing the game for a month or two, may be playing it "their own way" with mismatched sets in green or blue quality, the wrong food or drink, etc.

When I heal PUGs I often get players with CP that high or even 810 standing behind me pew pewing light attacks from distance and not getting any of the ground targeted heals or buffs.

Don't assume anything in PUGs based on CP.

Pew-pewing light attacks means they at least know LAs do more damage. Often when I'm at dragons now a warden with bear runs up, send the bear in, then just HA's, and only HAs outside of bear. I'm not sure what they need all that restore for, but it would be better if they used some skills or even LAs.

Contaminate · October 2020

CP is easy to accrue via questing and overload content, neither of which require more than a couple brain cells to be successful in.

These players literally have no idea that their performance is bad until someone tells them and holds them accountable for it.

ArchMikem · October 2020

ForeverJenn wrote: »

It just baffles me. I understand one person not understanding. But all three?

There are MANY who blast through levels and CP without actually learning mechanics. I didn't even start learning about rotations and gear sets until I was Vet 3 or 5 back before CP was a thing. I quested through the game wearing mismatching dropped armor and casting magic skills while dual wielding swords.

The game doesn't do a good job teaching us, so it's up to us to help enlighten. Yknow. If they listen.

Milli_Rabbit · October 2020

I refuse to believe people don't know they are bad. I call them out on it nicely. They just don't care to improve. Today I had a guy fake tank. Dude was a werewolf, had no taunt, CP 560 or so, and did like 5-8k dps. A werewolf?! You have 5 abilities you could literally light attack and do more damage...

Sylvermynx · October 2020

As @Kiralyn2000 says - I don't do group content (for me, it's that my ping on satellite is so high, I'm not willing to drag down a group). I have three friends who will help me with the dungeon you have to do to finish the Lunar Hall.

And do any of you know if one can have help with Yahgrondu? No way I can get by him alone, my dps isn't good enough due to high ping, and I can't reliably (eh, can't at all really) bar swap or roll dodge or even just move out of red. *sigh* Really like that costume.... but whatshername is fair useless when what I NEED is a healer damn it!

volkeswagon · October 2020

The combat mechanics are too complex in this game for some. Many want to do dungeons and trials for the achievements and leads and couldn't care about trying to get high dps. Rotations can be hard to master. I've tried following rotations from websites but I can still only get 12 dps and I always run out of stamina. I'm not a combat fan in any game and don't wanna take too much time in the game trying to raise it when I can be doing the stuff I enjoy.

renne · October 2020

CP literally only means they've been playing and earning XP.

It tells you absolutely nothing about skill level whatsoever.

CireNesnomis · October 2020

Mik195 wrote: »

CP just reflects time played, not skill. I was close to 900 before ever setting foot in a group dungeon (with the exception of literally setting foot to start undaunted). I've now soloed (well, bear does the hard stuff) up to Crypt of Hearts, but am no way near good enough to subject a group to my play. So if I ever pugged, it would be with high CP and no knowledge.

Sadly, I'll admit the exact same (COH). Been ESO+ for yrs and love PVE content. I'm CP970 and a nervous about PUG as ppl will expect that I can hit 40K+ DPS. I'm not great at weaving and hover 25-35K DPS. I know I should dedicate time to target dummy practice and would like to farm better sets, but there is so much good PVE content I never get around to it.

kargen27 · October 2020

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

I refuse to believe people don't know they are bad. I call them out on it nicely. They just don't care to improve. Today I had a guy fake tank. Dude was a werewolf, had no taunt, CP 560 or so, and did like 5-8k dps. A werewolf?! You have 5 abilities you could literally light attack and do more damage...

Did he die a lot? I was healing a dungeon and our "tank" was a werewolf that if he had a taunt never used it. He basically ran through the ads to the next boss where he would die because the rest of the team was dealing with all the stuff he ignored.

zaria · October 2020

kargen27 wrote: »

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

I refuse to believe people don't know they are bad. I call them out on it nicely. They just don't care to improve. Today I had a guy fake tank. Dude was a werewolf, had no taunt, CP 560 or so, and did like 5-8k dps. A werewolf?! You have 5 abilities you could literally light attack and do more damage...

Did he die a lot? I was healing a dungeon and our "tank" was a werewolf that if he had a taunt never used it. He basically ran through the ads to the next boss where he would die because the rest of the team was dealing with all the stuff he ignored.

Hint, if tank is pushing trough trash, follow him as he is probably running up to an point close to the next boss there you can burn all the trash in AoE, this is an very fast way to clear dungeons if group has decent AoE and can survive the fight.

But this require some communication and a knowledge that group is capable of it but fun then it works.

gongxizhirwb17_ESO · October 2020

i can beat 35k~40k dps in vet dungeon,not trash or mobs.
how much can i done in trial in general?

ForeverJenn · October 2020

I'm glad to see it's not just me witnessing this, then. Maybe it's more noticable on the tank. I usually play healer and that's about 8k average...enough to make up for a gap. But 3 ppl not doing more than 5kdps as a group seems to just be an unfortunate circumstance. Now I wonder how many DDs were carrying the other all this time...

Raideen · October 2020

I don't weave, I hate the playstyle and because of that I can't seem to get my DPS much above 20k. I have read tutorials out the wazzoo, copied builds from popular players/streamers/you tubers, golded entire sets (sans rings/neck), placed CP points according to tuts and I have a low ping and I still can't get much above 20k, not on my sorc, not on my templar, not on anything.

Casdha · October 2020

6+ years and I've never done, or even attempted, a PUG and I play most of the game with one character.

Honestly I do most of the normal dungeons solo with my all around main character who is also my grand master crafter/ farmer. He is built for solo play, I can't call it a tank because I don't have a taunt and I can't call it dps because I only hit anywhere from 30 to 60k on trash but single bosses it drops down to about 10 or 12 (same with large hp target dummy) as I use heavy attacks to recharge. I also don't use fancy gear just crafted and overland sets with matching stuff like damage, stamina and crit. Of the ones that can be soloed on Normal, I've never died in one since I started doing them solo. I've even soloed a couple in Vet. He is also not to bad in BGs but not that great in Cyrodiil although it has been years since I took him there.

My main skill is brawler (2h) which gives me aoe damage and shields. I can stand toe to toe with most things in the game as long as I can keep close enough to keep my shields active and not get hit by a one shot. If I max out target hits my shields are almost as full as my health basically doubling the hit I can take. As far as rotation goes it is basically just a one bar easy rotation, if you'd want to call it that with one added buff on the back bar that stays up almost 50 seconds (rest of back bar is bow for ranged attacks).

5 k does seem low for 3 people though, with no buffs active and no food active I get almost 4k weapon damage alone with 40% crit and that is with running my wild hunt ring.. I could swap the ring out and get a little better but I don't as I like the speed which is nearly maxed out without sprint (like I said crafter/farmer). For most overland stuff I don't even use buffs.

TLDR:
I'm not a good player but I'd guess they were in a hurry to level fast and didn't take the time to learn how to play.

Ysbriel · October 2020

@Raideen have you used the constellations addon? is the best addon to pair with combat metrics that will tell you where to put the CP based on your own performance.