How did Cyrodiil get this bad?

Machete · October 2020

How'd this escape the Cyrodiil forums!? You get back in there with the rest of us salty bois!

No legit, the AoE testing is miserable and killed my drive to PvP in ESO. Surprisingly not because of the tests, but because the tests themselves haven't fixed anything or even made it slightly more playable. Instead, it's made it more laggy with less people. Ravenwatch, a place that rarely had lag, is near unplayable with the tests up. (And that's not because of the DC fanboy zergs either) It's stressful, and shows that it isn't coding. It's the servers lack of on ability to keep up.

Vevvev · October 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can personally attest as a PvPer I spend way more money than I have in any other game in my 66 years on this planet.

Same! I can't even fathom how many hundreds I've poured into ESO over the 5 or so years I've played, and I've met other PVPers like you and myself that have invested a lot into this game. To say we don't generate wealth for zenimax is rediculous because we do have ESO+, buy the expansions, and acquire cosmetics.

If we didn't buy the expansions and do the dungeons we wouldn't have our top grade PVP gear now would we?

casparian · October 2020

ZOS' entire model of monetization and player retention is based around in-game events. It's something they've borrowed from other games where it works pretty well, and from I can tell most ESO players really enjoy the events and their cosmetic rewards.

This means that the way most of us in this thread think of Cyrodiil -- a place where we can go and enjoy PVP when we want to -- is just not the way ZOS thinks of it. Cyrodiil, like most of the rest of the game, is a base on which to build an event a few times a year. They need it to function during the times when Cyrodiil-based events are active, but to ZOS it's just not worth significant resources make it work at other times. After all, you should be playing other events when there isn't a Cyrodiil event going on! That's what most players are doing, anyway.

The point is that if you think this is a game where the devs care about you being able to play PVP regularly, you're bound to be disappointed. That may have been part of the original design of the game, but at this point it just isn't in their plans.

MincVinyl · October 2020

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

This is no other way to vocalize my disappointment with Cyrodiil's performance/latency state besides saying:

How is this acceptable? Who, or why was it allowed to degrade this much? During the events I personally notice higher stability/performance in Cyro or the Imperial city than I do otherwise.

For the entirety of the Imperial City Event, I played without a crash, usually with 60-120 ping depending on group sizes that rolled through. A smooth and enjoyable experience. This also applies with midyear mayhem in cyrodiil.

Now? If I go into Grey Host, I sit with 300-400 ping, can't even 1v1. To the point where multiple times I've had extended (5-10 minute) stretches of abilities failing to go off to the point where both parties stopped fighting, and starting to debate whats wrong with these servers in /whisper

IMO; there are two pieces of the puzzle that need to be taken care of to extinguish a lot of the lag

1. Remove all the wanton-ly placed cast timers. Seriously, this disrupts a smooth combat system, and adds more calculations to your already "Overloaded" server.

2. Seriously, invest in more servers/do whatever it is that gives pvp performance priority during events.

The state of Cyrodiil right now is downright despicable.

What is sad is how the ping shown isn't entirely truthful as to the actual ping.

During events there are newer pvp players that are not as taxing on the server. Imagine that the normal pvp server is a glass of apple juice. During the event some of the apple juice has been drained to other servers and is now filled back up with water. So during the event the apple juice isn't as strong == during the event the lag isn't as strong.

As players we are only able to suggest/agree upon ingame changes that could happen either to how mechanics work or ingame dynamics.

Things we can't really change much, but people will point at and *** about anyways instead of being productive:

Old servers
Anticheat
Coding

Mechanical changes, some of which were in the game previously, and tbh i don't think most of the eso community even gives a second thought into how these could be benefit the game by working differently:

How effects stack from multiple sources dots/hots/procs/buffs
Aoe's
Smart healing, player interactions
Ground abilities, includes gap closers, aoe, cones, etc
cp system
Stat system, soft caps
Skill/morph diversity

Game dynamics, lot of which were designed around what is essentially a completely different game at this point.

How keep sieging works, resources, FCs, seige meta, spawning, etc
Group vs Group combat, ball vs spread out
scoreboard system
Destroyable bridges/gates
Hammer
Keep transit lines
Grouping dynamics, numbers game instead of skill+coordination 90% of the time.....the usual argument never gets anywhere here typically, zerg = win = lag. People who take part in the zerg complain about lag, but will take every chance possible to contribute to it. Mainly due to the above list of issues/dynamics that are enabling this dynamic.

TLDR: The lag experienced has many causes and issues that all play a part in themselves and then also interact with each other. If you want to be one of those people that points their finger at one topic feel free. Obviously there will be some of these issues that show more lag than some of the others like the anticheat or Groups, but typically these are bigger issues due to the fact that they interact/connect with and get worse from other issues.

dinokstrunz · October 2020

Weesacs wrote: »

Why are you guys even playing Cyrodill when it's so bad?

Honestly, you all know how bad it is but keep going in?

It's like putting your hand in a fire then complaining how hot it is.

Maybe if people stopped going in there and it became dead then they would do something about it?

Where else can we play with our friends?

Imperial City is a ghost town without events

You can't do group Battlegrounds with friends (Although this is returning in Markarth)
It should've never been removed in the first place.

xshatox · October 2020

In general performance worsened after calculation migrates from client side to server side. Back then some player modify their processing side so they have insane amount advantage.
So some of us are partially to blame.

Reverb · October 2020

Weesacs wrote: »

Why are you guys even playing Cyrodill when it's so bad?

Honestly, you all know how bad it is but keep going in?

It's like putting your hand in a fire then complaining how hot it is.

Maybe if people stopped going in there and it became dead then they would do something about it?

Because when it’s good, it’s the best pvp game I’ve ever played. So much potential squandered by the devs.

gatekeeper13 · October 2020

PVP in Cyro is pure comedy right now. I was getting killed yesterday with no other players around, only to see in my death recap that I was attacked by 3-4 different people who were 50 meters away and suddenly spawned next to me (desync). My health was literally dropping from 100% to 0% in the blink of an eye, like 1-shots in vet DLC dungeon mechanics. I remember hitting a guy with poison injection and 1 second later he used cloak, with the injection actually NEVER landing on him at all although he was hit enough time before he used cloak (he didn't dodge it either).

Lag ofc did not affect only me. Last night at Sej outpost, reds were trying to capture it and I killed at least 10 of them while they were standing like sitting ducks, doing nothing because lag wouldnt let them react to my attacks at all. I was hitting them and they were staying still like statues.

Except lag, there are also a lot of disconnections.

Why are all these taking place? Because the current server is too weak. Upgrading server/rending more capacity probably costs a lot of money and ZOS is not willing to spent 1 more penny on Cyro. They simply DON'T CARE. All these "performance improvement plans/tests" are a joke and aint gonna work. Ever.

Jaraal · October 2020

Weesacs wrote: »

Maybe if people stopped going in there and it became dead then they would do something about it?

I took an alt to Icereach last night, and it literally took me 15 minutes to find another player. Not a word was spoken in my faction chat the entire time, nor did I see anyone from my faction at any of the bases or keeps. I finally found a group of enemies that were taking resources, fought with them for a bit, and just logged off.

How can the performance be so bad, when it's usually the deadest zone around?

SmukkeHeks · October 2020

Yesterday my skill delay was so bad I’ve pressed buttons that still are on wait. I got killed by invisible, not even a black shadow, but a not there enemy. Several enemies just stood there, taking the blows from my two handed sword. The desyncs are becoming progressively worse as the intensity of fighting picks up.

It was so bad all three cats left the room, even the demon spawn of a queen. [snip]

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · October 2020

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

...
Honestly, you all know how bad it is but keep going in?
...

Where else can we play with our friends?
..

You mean, "where else can we play ESO PvP with our friends". Most of the PvE part of ESO was specifically designed to be played with friends, and there are tons of other PvP games to choose from where grouping for small scale, fast-paced skirmishes is still a thing and not in any danger of being entirely removed because "premade groups have an unfair advantage". Not trying to insult you here, just saying that you might want to get a broader perspective.

At this point, I think players clinging to PvP should at least consider that maybe that great PvP game the developers envisioned at launch is now just a fantasy. To me, the alluring short glimpses of what the PvP game mode could have been when it chooses not to act up completely are really just a painful reminder of what it isn't.

Here, I could make comparisons to abusive relationships, or drug addictions, but it would be a bit like invoking Godwin's law, so I won't. I will just say that the psychology is similar, although very, very different in terms of severity and impact, and any comparison to that kind of real world problems would be grossly inappropriate and unfair to those who suffer from them.

WaywardArgonian · October 2020

I've been a frequent visitor of Cyrodiil for about a year now, and I can indeed see the performance dwindling over time. It's a shame, because in potential it's one of the best parts of the entire game.

Someone earlier in the thread asked why we keep going to Cyrodiil if it's in such a bad state, and it's because we know how good it can be and sometimes still is on off-hours, and there is simply nothing in the game that could replace it.

I also don't buy the argument that PVP isn't profitable. Players rarely stick to just one part of the game. As a PVP'er I also like to invest in housing, create outfits, play the latest story content and roleplay. But if you were to hypothetically delete PVP from the game, I'd have a lot less incentive to play the game as much as I do. PVP'ers are a minority but we are normal players who put time and often money into the game just as much as others do.

Adding to the point above, with the poor performance, PVP not being profitable also becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy when there's fewer PVP'ers in the game as time goes on. From experience I know that there is a LOT of interest in Cyrodiil from casual players, who want to tag along when they catch a glimpse of the stuff I do in there. However, with the current state that Cyrodiil is in, few, if any stick around, and they instead return to either roleplay or other MMOs. I'm convinced that a well-functioning Cyrodiil has the potential to attract and retain new and old players.

BretonicBlondie · October 2020

There are lots of discussions about 'the servers', but it seems to me that the servers are maybe not the only culprits of lag and other defects... there are certainly also CDN and anti DDoS playing a role here. We do not know if and when ZOS servers are under any DDoS attack, or hacking attempts, or any other disruptive action. Maybe, just maybe, sometimes they spend a bit (big bit?) more in anti-DDoS throughput during events, just to go back through the normal cost afterwards. Cyrodiil is one unique instance by campaign, then maybe resides on one unique server (and unique IP-address).This must be more difficult to protect in my humble opinion. The architecture of the network between player home and ZOS mega-servers is maybe the place where progress must be made. (I hope that MS can help here... with $$ or clout). A lot of 'maybe' here, just thinking.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · October 2020

Ackwalan wrote: »

PvP and PTS share server resources. Whenever PTS is going, PvP is worse then normal.

Really?
Did not know this. I thought PTS was separate from live?

xTAKISx · October 2020

The only way to save Cyro is to hope MS dumps money into it and/or let's ZoS use their server tech. If not it will be the same dumpster fire every...single...day.

hakan · October 2020

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

(This post is PC-centric. I have no experience with any of the console versions.)

I really don't think Cyrodiil is earning them any profit, however you might want to calculate that. Throwing more resources at it obviously works, because the event ran reasonably smooth even with lots of extra players who usually don't touch PvP. It seems like it is too expensive for them to rent enough server and bandwidth capacity to fix it like that in the long run.

We have never had any hard numbers on the amount of active players in ESO. The Steam statistics is only a part of it, and it does not show whether people are playing PvE or PvP. From my in-game experiences in ESO guilds of many kinds, I can confidently say that the PvP players are a minority. I don't know exactly how small that minority is, but doing some obvious math on what we can see, the number of campaigns is in the low single digits, with a low population cap of around a few hundred players. It used to be a few hundred players per faction, perhaps even as much as 1,000 per faction back in 2014 while most calculations were still performed client-side, but the cap has been reduced several times since then, in their attempts to maintain a reasonable level of performance. I would guess that a "full" campaign now has at most 1,000 players in it. It's still just a guess, but I would think I'm not that far off.

Thus, even if all campaigns were population capped, which they usually aren't, the number of concurrent PvP players in Cyrodiil would be a few thousand souls who prefer that game mode with all its problems.

We are not getting any actual numbers on the amount of PvE players, but we can make educated guesses. Steam currently shows around 30k concurrent ESO players during peak hours, and there are many players who don't access the game through Steam. 40-50k concurrent players in total is a reasonably conservative estimate, and that would be more than 10 times the amount of players in a reasonably well populated Cyrodiil.

I honestly think PvP is now a calculated loss, maintained mostly for marketing reasons. Pride could be part of it as well, and maybe even a stubborn die-hard refusal to admit failure and abandon it. Perhaps they even still hold a faint hope that they will be able to fix it. However, their unwillingness to fix it in the obvious way, i.e. by throwing more server resources at it like during the event, tells me that they have no budget for that, and that their money is made elsewhere.

PvP is a big problem for them. They never really delivered on their bold promise from 2014 of massive siege warfare battles with hundreds of players. It could be a wise move to just get rid of it. I'm not saying it is, because I don't have nearly enough information to tell, but it could be. At a certain point, walking away and admitting defeat becomes the least bad option.

pve is also a small minority. then why would they make vet dungeons and trials every year? pvp people spend as much as pve if not more, your logic is flawed imo.

Ratinira · October 2020

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · October 2020

The point might have been that people who do exclusively PvE are also a minority, and that most players split their time between both. While that may be the case, even though my personal experience says otherwise, my fundamental point still stands: the number of players who are doing PvP at any one time is dwarfed by the much larger number of people doing PvE stuff (or role playing, or just standing idle in a city while chatting). This indicates that if there are lots of people who split their time between the two game modes, they are still doing a lot more PvE than PvP. This would make PvP a relatively unprofitable part of the game.

To be honest, my experience is that PvP players tend to do almost nothing but PvP, and most PvE players barely touch the PvP part of the game, except to get (or get back) the Rapid Maneuvers skill, and maybe to grind for a reward of Transmute stones once a month. However, this is my personal experience, and I do not have any hard numbers on it. The developers have the numbers, though, and they are not spending a huge load of cash on improving Cyrodiil. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

zaria · October 2020

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

PvP and PTS share server resources. Whenever PTS is going, PvP is worse then normal.

Really?
Did not know this. I thought PTS was separate from live?

PTS is separate and is only in US for pc. It run on separate servers, probably few and an separate database.
Not sure how the DB of eso works but it should not affect cyrodil.
PTS is also always up, not only during testing of new dlc, its nice for testing out gear and builds.

relentless_turnip · October 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Banana · October 2020

I can't wait to hear their conclusions at the end of these tests.

Ratinira · October 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

relentless_turnip · October 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

Technically PVE... delve, dungeon and over world grinding. I can't remember which developer ....so don't push me for a quote

But apparently 70% of the ESO population doesn't even use Buff food. By casual I mean not bothered by end game, which generally divides this game into PVP or PVE. I mean players that want to jump in, pick some flowers and log off.

PrimusNephilim · October 2020

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

How did Cyrodiil get this bad?

Because they keep adding homes with 700 and 600 furniture slots

Ratinira · October 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

Technically PVE... delve, dungeon and over world grinding. I can't remember which developer ....so don't push me for a quote
But apparently 70% of the ESO population doesn't even use Buff food. By casual I mean not bothered by end game, which generally divides this game into PVP or PVE. I mean players that want to jump in, pick some flowers and log off.

PvE (Player versus environment) is when you are fighting against computer (mobs)
PvP (Player versus player) is when you fight against other players.

PvE is not about using or not using food or going or not going into trial. It is about whom you are playing against. Dungeons, trials, WB, trash mobs, dolmens.... They are all PvE content.

relentless_turnip · October 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

Technically PVE... delve, dungeon and over world grinding. I can't remember which developer ....so don't push me for a quote
But apparently 70% of the ESO population doesn't even use Buff food. By casual I mean not bothered by end game, which generally divides this game into PVP or PVE. I mean players that want to jump in, pick some flowers and log off.

PvE (Player versus environment) is when you are fighting against computer (mobs)
PvP (Player versus player) is when you fight against other players.

PvE is not about using or not using food or going or not going into trial. It is about whom you are playing against. Dungeons, trials, WB, trash mobs, dolmens.... They are all PvE content.

Right... I am aware, you asked who the casual players are and who made up the majority.

Those guys ^^^

Ratinira · October 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

Technically PVE... delve, dungeon and over world grinding. I can't remember which developer ....so don't push me for a quote
But apparently 70% of the ESO population doesn't even use Buff food. By casual I mean not bothered by end game, which generally divides this game into PVP or PVE. I mean players that want to jump in, pick some flowers and log off.

PvE (Player versus environment) is when you are fighting against computer (mobs)
PvP (Player versus player) is when you fight against other players.

PvE is not about using or not using food or going or not going into trial. It is about whom you are playing against. Dungeons, trials, WB, trash mobs, dolmens.... They are all PvE content.

Right... I am aware, you asked who the casual players are and who made up the majority.

Those guys ^^^

No, I asked who are casual players who are neither PvP nor PvE players and form third majority

relentless_turnip · October 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

Technically PVE... delve, dungeon and over world grinding. I can't remember which developer ....so don't push me for a quote
But apparently 70% of the ESO population doesn't even use Buff food. By casual I mean not bothered by end game, which generally divides this game into PVP or PVE. I mean players that want to jump in, pick some flowers and log off.

PvE (Player versus environment) is when you are fighting against computer (mobs)
PvP (Player versus player) is when you fight against other players.

PvE is not about using or not using food or going or not going into trial. It is about whom you are playing against. Dungeons, trials, WB, trash mobs, dolmens.... They are all PvE content.

Right... I am aware, you asked who the casual players are and who made up the majority.

Those guys ^^^

No, I asked who are casual players who are neither PvP nor PvE players and form third majority

No one suggested they were neither PVE or PVP, so isn't the line of questioning a tad redundant? or are you just being hilariously pedantic?

Ratinira · October 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

Technically PVE... delve, dungeon and over world grinding. I can't remember which developer ....so don't push me for a quote
But apparently 70% of the ESO population doesn't even use Buff food. By casual I mean not bothered by end game, which generally divides this game into PVP or PVE. I mean players that want to jump in, pick some flowers and log off.

PvE (Player versus environment) is when you are fighting against computer (mobs)
PvP (Player versus player) is when you fight against other players.

PvE is not about using or not using food or going or not going into trial. It is about whom you are playing against. Dungeons, trials, WB, trash mobs, dolmens.... They are all PvE content.

Right... I am aware, you asked who the casual players are and who made up the majority.

Those guys ^^^

No, I asked who are casual players who are neither PvP nor PvE players and form third majority

No one suggested they were neither PVE or PVP, so isn't the line of questioning a tad redundant? or are you just being hilariously pedantic?

Please, re-read my first comment and what it is quoting🙂

relentless_turnip · October 2020

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

pve is also a small minority.

Then who are majority? 🤔
You cannot have two small minorities without something else then

Casual players

Who are they and what are they doing in game if the are not fighting with anyone/anything at all? If they are majority, which, probably, means more then half of players?

Technically PVE... delve, dungeon and over world grinding. I can't remember which developer ....so don't push me for a quote
But apparently 70% of the ESO population doesn't even use Buff food. By casual I mean not bothered by end game, which generally divides this game into PVP or PVE. I mean players that want to jump in, pick some flowers and log off.

PvE (Player versus environment) is when you are fighting against computer (mobs)
PvP (Player versus player) is when you fight against other players.

PvE is not about using or not using food or going or not going into trial. It is about whom you are playing against. Dungeons, trials, WB, trash mobs, dolmens.... They are all PvE content.

Right... I am aware, you asked who the casual players are and who made up the majority.

Those guys ^^^

No, I asked who are casual players who are neither PvP nor PvE players and form third majority

No one suggested they were neither PVE or PVP, so isn't the line of questioning a tad redundant? or are you just being hilariously pedantic?

Please, re-read my first comment and what it is quoting🙂

I did, they were referencing the endgame PVE crowd(trials etc...) this is indicated by the context of their comment and is regularly written short hand like this.