Rapid Maneuver update from ZOS_JensR

JoeCapricorn · September 2020

So I was over at the German language section of the forums and I noticed another ZOS employee commented on the issue of Rapid Maneuver. This was going to be posted as a reply a few days ago, however something came up yesterday that prevented it. I am hopeful that this counts as a completely new discussion topic, however, as it includes information not previously presented to the English language forum.

Jens posted this:

ZOS_JensR wrote: »

Hallo,

wir können eure Frustration mit den zusammenhängenden Änderungen sehr gut verstehen und helfen auch, wo wir können. Kai und so auch die englischen Kollegen haben das Problem im Visier und auch das Entwicklerstudio ist sich eures Unmuts bewusst und schaut sich die Sachlage noch einmal an, wie Kai euch auch schon mitgeteilt hat.

Mit dem vorausgesetzt würden wir euch darum Bitten dennoch einmal ein Blick auf die Community-Regeln zu werfen, sonst müssen wir den Beitrag bald schließen, da er nun mehr und mehr droht zu entgleisen.

Denn die fast wichtigste Regel bei solchen Beiträgen ist: Bitte bleibt beim Thema.

Verschwörungstheorien über etwaige Tricks zu Reitstunden, welche von Kai mit Quellen widerlegt wurden, und Beleidigungen (Bashing) andere Spieler und dem Entwicklerteam selbst sind Verstöße gegen die Community-Regeln.

Gerne lassen wir das Thema weiter offen, doch hier zeigt sich, wie große Beiträge zu entgleisen drohen, indem das Grundthema an sich argumentationstechnisch schon ausgeschöpft ist und immer wieder neues Öl ins Feuer geschüttet wird und Nebendiskussionen entstehen. Was eben unter Umständen gegen die Regeln verstößt.

Denn auch wenn es mittlerweile 28 Seiten sind, dass originale Thema wurde beantwortet: Das Combat-Team untersucht derzeit die Änderung mit dem Skill „Hastiges Manöver“ und schaut sich verfügbare Optionen an.

Wir möchten euch die Freiheiten lassen eure Meinung zu diesem offensichtlich sehr wichtigen Thema kundzutun, und wir teilen und unterstützen eure Wünsche, doch bitte habt Geduld während diesem Vorgang und bitte, bitte vermeidet Beleidigungen gegen eure Mitspieler und auch uns, und bleibt beim Thema.

Danke für eure Liebe und eure Leidenschaft für ESO, sonst gäbe es solch lange, wichtige Beiträge und Diskussionen nicht, und auch für euer Verständnis, während wir daran arbeiten.

Liebe Grüße,
Jens

Here is the translation courtesy of Google:

ZOS_JensR wrote: »

Hello,

we can very well understand your frustration with the related changes and also help where we can. Kai and so also the English colleagues have the problem in their sights and the development studio is also aware of your displeasure and takes another look at the situation, as Kai has already told you.

Assuming that we would still ask you to take a look at the community rules, otherwise we will have to close the post soon, as it threatens to derail more and more.

Because almost the most important rule with such contributions is: Please stay with the topic.

Conspiracy theories about possible tricks for riding lessons, which Kai refuted with sources, and insults (bashing) other players and the development team itself are violations of the community rules.

We are happy to leave the topic open, but this shows how large contributions threaten to derail, as the basic topic itself has already been exhausted in terms of argumentation and new fuel is poured into the fire again and again and secondary discussions arise. Which may be against the rules.

Because even if there are now 28 pages, the original topic has been answered: The combat team is currently investigating the change with the “Hasty maneuver” skill and is looking at available options.

We would like to give you the freedom to express your opinion on this obviously very important topic, and we share and support your wishes, but please be patient during this process and please, please avoid insulting your fellow players and us, and stay on the topic.

Thank you for your love and passion for ESO, otherwise there would not be such long, important contributions and discussions, and also for your understanding while we are working on it.

Best regards,
Jens

tl:dr version: Zenimax Online Studios is aware of our displeasure with the change to Rapid Maneuver. The Combat team is investigating the change with Rapid Maneuver and is looking at available options. Jens asks us to "please be patient during this process and please, please avoid insulting your fellow players and us"! (emphasis mine) He also makes the point that the basic topic has already been exhausted (and on both German and English threads the discussion seemed to be stagnating in a circular manner) and secondary discussion derails the thread. That certainly happened with my thread (lots of derailments and conspiracy theories).

While it would be nice to have an English language version of the above explanation presented directly by a ZOS employee, having a German language post/comment that I can translate using Google is the next best thing. So, I felt it was up to me to present it, and to the best of my ability I tried to stay within the community guidelines.

Let me say something about conspiracy theories - those never help. In a pessimistic mindset I might start to believe them but that doesn't mean they are true, it just means my view of the company had been stained by another user's speculation which is unfair to ZOS. I also find myself guilty of being impatient, and I apologize for that. Essentially this is a waiting game, but it would be nice for a little bit of crumb of continued engagement.

I love ESO, it gives me a much needed respite from the real world. It is currently my fantasy world break from a world with Covid-19 and a world recently bereft of my beloved mother. I need ESO more than ever, and I feel just as strongly about the Rapid Maneuver issue now as I did back in August. Please respect each other!

volkeswagon · September 2020

put rapid maneuvers into a pve skill line such as the fighters guild or undaunted. I do like having access to vigor but also miss rapids.

volkeswagon · September 2020

Especially since the rapids change coincided with a change to mount stamina drain i think it's obvious it is all a scheme to get people to buy stamina upgrades from the crown store.

Firstmep · September 2020

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

So I was over at the German language section of the forums and I noticed another ZOS employee commented on the issue of Rapid Maneuver. This was going to be posted as a reply a few days ago, however something came up yesterday that prevented it. I am hopeful that this counts as a completely new discussion topic, however, as it includes information not previously presented to the English language forum.

Jens posted this:

ZOS_JensR wrote: »

Hallo,

wir können eure Frustration mit den zusammenhängenden Änderungen sehr gut verstehen und helfen auch, wo wir können. Kai und so auch die englischen Kollegen haben das Problem im Visier und auch das Entwicklerstudio ist sich eures Unmuts bewusst und schaut sich die Sachlage noch einmal an, wie Kai euch auch schon mitgeteilt hat.

Mit dem vorausgesetzt würden wir euch darum Bitten dennoch einmal ein Blick auf die Community-Regeln zu werfen, sonst müssen wir den Beitrag bald schließen, da er nun mehr und mehr droht zu entgleisen.

Denn die fast wichtigste Regel bei solchen Beiträgen ist: Bitte bleibt beim Thema.

Verschwörungstheorien über etwaige Tricks zu Reitstunden, welche von Kai mit Quellen widerlegt wurden, und Beleidigungen (Bashing) andere Spieler und dem Entwicklerteam selbst sind Verstöße gegen die Community-Regeln.

Gerne lassen wir das Thema weiter offen, doch hier zeigt sich, wie große Beiträge zu entgleisen drohen, indem das Grundthema an sich argumentationstechnisch schon ausgeschöpft ist und immer wieder neues Öl ins Feuer geschüttet wird und Nebendiskussionen entstehen. Was eben unter Umständen gegen die Regeln verstößt.

Denn auch wenn es mittlerweile 28 Seiten sind, dass originale Thema wurde beantwortet: Das Combat-Team untersucht derzeit die Änderung mit dem Skill „Hastiges Manöver“ und schaut sich verfügbare Optionen an.

Wir möchten euch die Freiheiten lassen eure Meinung zu diesem offensichtlich sehr wichtigen Thema kundzutun, und wir teilen und unterstützen eure Wünsche, doch bitte habt Geduld während diesem Vorgang und bitte, bitte vermeidet Beleidigungen gegen eure Mitspieler und auch uns, und bleibt beim Thema.

Danke für eure Liebe und eure Leidenschaft für ESO, sonst gäbe es solch lange, wichtige Beiträge und Diskussionen nicht, und auch für euer Verständnis, während wir daran arbeiten.

Liebe Grüße,
Jens

Here is the translation courtesy of Google:

ZOS_JensR wrote: »

Hello,

we can very well understand your frustration with the related changes and also help where we can. Kai and so also the English colleagues have the problem in their sights and the development studio is also aware of your displeasure and takes another look at the situation, as Kai has already told you.

Assuming that we would still ask you to take a look at the community rules, otherwise we will have to close the post soon, as it threatens to derail more and more.

Because almost the most important rule with such contributions is: Please stay with the topic.

Conspiracy theories about possible tricks for riding lessons, which Kai refuted with sources, and insults (bashing) other players and the development team itself are violations of the community rules.

We are happy to leave the topic open, but this shows how large contributions threaten to derail, as the basic topic itself has already been exhausted in terms of argumentation and new fuel is poured into the fire again and again and secondary discussions arise. Which may be against the rules.

Because even if there are now 28 pages, the original topic has been answered: The combat team is currently investigating the change with the “Hasty maneuver” skill and is looking at available options.

We would like to give you the freedom to express your opinion on this obviously very important topic, and we share and support your wishes, but please be patient during this process and please, please avoid insulting your fellow players and us, and stay on the topic.

Thank you for your love and passion for ESO, otherwise there would not be such long, important contributions and discussions, and also for your understanding while we are working on it.

Best regards,
Jens

tl:dr version: Zenimax Online Studios is aware of our displeasure with the change to Rapid Maneuver. The Combat team is investigating the change with Rapid Maneuver and is looking at available options. Jens asks us to "please be patient during this process and please, please avoid insulting your fellow players and us"! (emphasis mine) He also makes the point that the basic topic has already been exhausted (and on both German and English threads the discussion seemed to be stagnating in a circular manner) and secondary discussion derails the thread. That certainly happened with my thread (lots of derailments and conspiracy theories).

While it would be nice to have an English language version of the above explanation presented directly by a ZOS employee, having a German language post/comment that I can translate using Google is the next best thing. So, I felt it was up to me to present it, and to the best of my ability I tried to stay within the community guidelines.

Let me say something about conspiracy theories - those never help. In a pessimistic mindset I might start to believe them but that doesn't mean they are true, it just means my view of the company had been stained by another user's speculation which is unfair to ZOS. I also find myself guilty of being impatient, and I apologize for that. Essentially this is a waiting game, but it would be nice for a little bit of crumb of continued engagement.

I love ESO, it gives me a much needed respite from the real world. It is currently my fantasy world break from a world with Covid-19 and a world recently bereft of my beloved mother. I need ESO more than ever, and I feel just as strongly about the Rapid Maneuver issue now as I did back in August. Please respect each other!

I wish the English CMs were as communicative as the German ones.

geonsocal · September 2020

my condolences for your mom...really puts everything else in perspective...sounds like she'll always be with you...

SydneyGrey · September 2020

volkeswagon wrote: »

put rapid maneuvers into a pve skill line such as the fighters guild or undaunted. I do like having access to vigor but also miss rapids.

YES
This, please. Rapids as the first unlock in the Soul Magic line would work nicely, too.

DarcyMardin · September 2020

Great post, Joe. Thanks for giving us the German info. I don't think we've heard directly from the English language ZOS community spokespersons, so I appreciate the confirmation that the devs are looking into this. Wholeheartedly agree that debates and conspiracy theories aren't useful, but I'm glad they understand the frustration a lot of us have been feeling.

Hang in there. Losing one's mom is very hard (I've lost both my parents, so I've been thru it). If you're as fortunate as I've been, the memory of those we lose stays with us always.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2020

ZOS_JensR wrote: »

The original topic has been answered: The combat team is currently investigating the change with the “Hasty maneuver” skill and is looking at available options.

Come on.
The issues are simple and the available options even more simple. Sometimes we don't get the whole picture of the developers' job, and think things are simple when they're not, but in this case, things are truly simple. If the devs wanted to revert their decision about rapids, they already would have done so. They are not investigating anything because there is nothing to investigate. They're not looking at options because the options are obvious.

This is not a communication post. It's a moderation post. It says nothing more than what we already knew.

It's no "conspiracy spreading" to simply think about the reasons why they changed rapids and, as someone already said, to add 2 and 2.

hakan · September 2020

naaah even though i give them *** for game performance and class balance, i dont think this was for crown sales. more like lazy problem solving since playing a stam char is horrible without vigor.

so many battles without vigor. .ugh.

JoKi · September 2020

hakan wrote: »

naaah even though i give them *** for game performance and class balance, i dont think this was for crown sales. more like lazy problem solving since playing a stam char is horrible without vigor.

so many battles without vigor. .ugh.

So make Vigor the starting skill in one war skill line and Rapid Maneuver in the other - problem solved

hakan · September 2020

JoKi wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

naaah even though i give them *** for game performance and class balance, i dont think this was for crown sales. more like lazy problem solving since playing a stam char is horrible without vigor.

so many battles without vigor. .ugh.

So make Vigor the starting skill in one war skill line and Rapid Maneuver in the other - problem solved

yeah that could easily solve it. but as i said, typical lazy solution imo. there are better ways to sell crowns for sure so this theories come up funny to me.

WoodenHeart · September 2020

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

tl:dr version: Zenimax Online Studios is aware of our displeasure with the change to Rapid Maneuver. The Combat team is investigating the change with Rapid Maneuver and is looking at available options.

Thank you for the update; it's good to know that they're still looking into this. Hopefully they will make things right and not force everyone who lost rapids to regrind it on multiple characters. There were so many alternative options and they chose one that lost them a lot of respect and probably a lot of users. I fall into the first category and nearly the second.

Also, I'm sorry to hear about your mother. Please accept my condolences.

agegarton · September 2020

Hey they said they were looking at it, ok......?

In the meantime, have you seen our selection of mount upgrades available for modest sums in the Crown Store? No? Were you aware that we're about to provide AP boost scrolls for an equally modest sum in the Crown Store......?

You see, they just wanna help.

So transparent it's painful.

Donny_Vito · September 2020

Similar to when all the Sorcs were upset about the 1-second shield casting time, and then ZoS reverted changes (though that was in PTS). If you have enough people constantly complain on the forums, eventually you will be heard. Grats on the persistence.

Sgrug · September 2020

Zen never gave a good reason why Rapids had to go to level 5 especially when so many provided VERY REASONABLE AND UNOBJECTIONABLE alternatives that would have avoided this issue.

In fact Zen actually avoided discussing this in the English forums after the change and all the outrage.

Yet now we are told to stop with conspiracy theories about monetizing the changes.

Anyone else see the irony here?

relentless_turnip · September 2020

Thanks for this OP ^^

I would like them to make it the first passive you unlock in alliance war skill tree and activate it with synergy or something...
Getting it stuck on your bar due to being in combat is infuriating especially when you are not in combat

Sgrug · September 2020

Too add in my previous post, nice way to kill the last thread that was open for the issue. Nice post op but honestly my read on it is they are double talking us and intend to wait it out while quelling anymore discussion on this topic.

I may be wrong and if I am great but this just reads like a non answer answer with a BS justification for ending any further real forum discussions

Moloch1514 · September 2020

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Similar to when all the Sorcs were upset about the 1-second shield casting time, and then ZoS reverted changes (though that was in PTS). If you have enough people constantly complain on the forums, eventually you will be heard. Grats on the persistence.

Reverted.....with a huge % health cap of 40-50%.

redspecter23 · September 2020

A good way to put conspiracy theories to rest is to actually explain, with logic and reasoning, why a change was implemented. Conspiracy theories exist due to a lack of information or a lack of trust, both of which are in abundance with this particular topic.

Any change should have a reason. Some reasons are obvious or can be inferred easily enough. Making Vigor easier to get makes sense. It's a benefit to players so that can be justified and we move on. The change to make rapids harder to get never got an explanation so players have to make one up. If ZOS wants to put conspiracies to rest, all they have to do is explain why this nerf was required for game balance reasons, because without those reasons, players will fall back on the only logical reason they can possibly have (yet not openly talk about).

OmniDo · September 2020

[snip edited by ZOS for the following reason outlined], there are just two words: Perception Management.
That's all this is, that's all this will ever be.

Once upon a time, Games were created because they were fun and meant for pure entertainment.
But within the last generation or so (30'ish years), they along with everything else, have become subject to the consumption-model of capitalism.

Sure, the artists, musicians, composers, storytellers, and the overall creative forces behind them are still as brilliant, inspiring, and entertaining (for the most part) as they have always been. But sadly, the end-game of any product is its consumption, and in the case of end-stage capitalism, its repeated consumption, for profit only.

None of this is conspiratorial, it's just academic.
Welcome to the world the last two generations of human beings have both participated in creating and continue to maintain.
If the current generation is unhappy with the end result, then they should take steps to change it.

Just remember, all change is wrought with resistance and is typically expensive, and those expenses aren't always measured in fiat currency.

[Edited to remove Discussing Mod Action for perception management]
Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on September 29, 2020 9:39AM

ZOS_ConnorG · September 2020

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Discussing Disciplinary Actions. Our rules do not permit users to discuss on the forums when any post or thread is removed, edited, or locked.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

eKsDee · September 2020

ZOS_ConnorG wrote: »

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Discussing Disciplinary Actions. Our rules do not permit users to discuss on the forums when any post or thread is removed, edited, or locked.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Then explain why the Vigor/Rapids swap happened the way it did, so people aren't forced to draw their own conclusions, and potentially set themselves up to have their post be deleted. Because we all have a point, here. Things happened the way they did, little to no information was given on why it happened the way it did, and we all drew the logical conclusion from that, and yet somehow that's considered to be spreading a conspiracy or misinformation, when there's no information to misinterpret to begin with.

All this does is drive people towards second guessing when they go to hit that Post Reply button, out of fear that their post, which shouldn't even be breaking the terms to begin with (again, because there's no information to misinterpret to begin with), is going to get deleted, and their forum account slapped with a warning. Come out and say something officially, so that people aren't forced to draw their own conclusions.

Double Edit: Screw it, sticking with my gut here. For the record, I originally edited my post to remove it, just in case it got deleted. If it does, you've just proved my point right. This shouldn't be the way that a game forum, that the developers supposedly use to gather feedback, should be run. People shouldn't have to second guess when they hit that Post Reply button, asking themselves "is this open to interpretation so much that it might get removed?"

Jaraal · September 2020

There is an Alliance War skill XP scroll you can purchase in the Crown Store to help you get back the Rapids that was taken away from you faster.

ZOS will profit from the misfortune of others.

Only facts.

VaranisArano · September 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

There is an Alliance War skill XP scroll you can purchase in the Crown Store to help you get back the Rapids that was taken away from you faster.

ZOS will profit from the misfortune of others.

Only facts.

Um, don't the War Tortes do the same thing, in game? It'll be a bit of a grind for the recipes, but once players start making them, you should be able to buy them in game for about the same result.

I mean, I won't deny that ZOS is the master of "create a problem, sell the solution," but at least try to include all the facts.

DigitalHype · September 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JensR wrote: »

The original topic has been answered: The combat team is currently investigating the change with the “Hasty maneuver” skill and is looking at available options.

Come on.
The issues are simple and the available options even more simple. Sometimes we don't get the whole picture of the developers' job, and think things are simple when they're not, but in this case, things are truly simple. If the devs wanted to revert their decision about rapids, they already would have done so. They are not investigating anything because there is nothing to investigate. They're not looking at options because the options are obvious.

This is not a communication post. It's a moderation post. It says nothing more than what we already knew.

It's no "conspiracy spreading" to simply think about the reasons why they changed rapids and, as someone already said, to add 2 and 2.

Agreed 100% and liked.

Also the post states"Conspiracy theories about possible tricks for riding lessons, which Kai refuted with sources".

This isn't about riding lessons. those are for suckers. The real money they made from the change wasn't from riding lesson sales. It was from the Assault Skill Lines which sell at 3k crowns each. As a result of this change, they sold more of these. There is no way they can truthfully dispute it. There were many people in my guilds who bought this for multiple alts so they didn't have to pvp grind to obtain the use of rapids on those characters again. Did Kai also refute that with sources? If so, can we see that evidence in the English forums too?

Tandor · September 2020

According to the translation, Kai has previously refuted the conspiracy theories "with sources". Perhaps @ZOS_GinaBruno could give us an English account of those sources please so that the conspiracy theories can finally be laid to rest.

Interesting original post, thanks OP - and heartfelt commiserations over your loss.

Jaraal · September 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

There is an Alliance War skill XP scroll you can purchase in the Crown Store to help you get back the Rapids that was taken away from you faster.

ZOS will profit from the misfortune of others.

Only facts.

Um, don't the War Tortes do the same thing, in game? It'll be a bit of a grind for the recipes, but once players start making them, you should be able to buy them in game for about the same result.

I mean, I won't deny that ZOS is the master of "create a problem, sell the solution," but at least try to include all the facts.

Yes, that's the caveat, so they can say you can get these scrolls without paying for them.

However, to make these recipes, you must pay with tel var (500,000) that can only be earned in a PvP zone. You get at least 12 tel var for killing a monster, for perspective.

You also need to complete town quests in a PvP zone for components, and you will be killed by players while doing so.

You also need to find components in the wild, that are as rare as Aetherial Ciphers, while avoiding being killed by players.

Bottom line is, you will get Alliance Rank 5 much faster by just PvPing. Or..... you can pay for scrolls in the Crown Store.

VaranisArano · September 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

There is an Alliance War skill XP scroll you can purchase in the Crown Store to help you get back the Rapids that was taken away from you faster.

ZOS will profit from the misfortune of others.

Only facts.

Um, don't the War Tortes do the same thing, in game? It'll be a bit of a grind for the recipes, but once players start making them, you should be able to buy them in game for about the same result.

I mean, I won't deny that ZOS is the master of "create a problem, sell the solution," but at least try to include all the facts.

Yes, that's the caveat, so they can say you can get these scrolls without paying for them.

However, to make these recipes, you must pay with tel var (500,000) that can only be earned in a PvP zone. You get at least 12 tel var for killing a monster, for perspective.

You also need to complete town quests in a PvP zone for components, and you will be killed by players while doing so.

You also need to find components in the wild, that are as rare as Aetherial Ciphers, while avoiding being killed by players.

Bottom line is, you will get Alliance Rank 5 much faster by just PvPing. Or..... you can pay for scrolls in the Crown Store.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the war tortes can be sold by players who know the recipes, right?

It seems set up to give PVPers who earm the recipes something to sell to PVEers who just want the War Tortes to earn the skill lines faster.

And at that point, we're looking at the equivalent of research scrolls or exp potions: not as good as the crown store ones, but definitely available in game.

Nestor · September 2020

I would like to start playing this game again, having Rapids back will make that happen.

Until then, I am playing other games in my library.

idk · September 2020

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Similar to when all the Sorcs were upset about the 1-second shield casting time, and then ZoS reverted changes (though that was in PTS). If you have enough people constantly complain on the forums, eventually you will be heard. Grats on the persistence.

@Donny_Vito That is not correct. The change affected pretty much all magicka players, not just Sorcs, since it was a change to all magicka based shields. Please do not make it out to be only sorcs complained because that is not accurate.

Further, while some may have just complained about that change as they have with the rapid change, many of us gave logical reasoning as to why a cast time on shields was bad for gameplay in ESO. That speaks louder than just complaining because we do not like the change.

zaria · September 2020

idk wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Similar to when all the Sorcs were upset about the 1-second shield casting time, and then ZoS reverted changes (though that was in PTS). If you have enough people constantly complain on the forums, eventually you will be heard. Grats on the persistence.

@Donny_Vito That is not correct. The change affected pretty much all magicka players, not just Sorcs, since it was a change to all magicka based shields. Please do not make it out to be only sorcs complained because that is not accurate.

Further, while some may have just complained about that change as they have with the rapid change, many of us gave logical reasoning as to why a cast time on shields was bad for gameplay in ESO. That speaks louder than just complaining because we do not like the change.

This and shields ended up getting nerfed hard anyway as in they are now just 50-60% of your health.
Pretty much like if they moved rapid to undaunted and required 8 in undaunted to unlock

Now that would be fun for new players.