Caluurion's Legacy on a stamblade

BangX · September 2020

Would it be effective on a stamblade gank build?
Trying to theory craft new builds for my bow heavy attack + surprise attack build and was wondering if the 5 piece was good for stamina builds.

I'd use red mountain but it's not instant burst like caluurion. I was using torag's pact but it doesn't work with the shadowstrike cp passive.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · September 2020

I have seen some stam blades doing it, but I really do not see the point. Why not just go magblade? I have seen magblades melee gank far better then the stam blades I seen using calurions and as a bonus they can also bomb. Stick to the strengths of being a stam blade. The damage just isn't there with that setup, I have had these guys fail to gank me while I am standing still at a flag(I am a gankblade as well so it should be an easy kill). Any ganker that fails to kill a glass cannon needs to go back the the drawing board with their build. The guys that used it on me even followed it up with an incap, its not good and way more risky then just sticking to snipe.

fred4 · September 2020

I run a Caluurion magblade. I believe stamblade gankers do just fine with stat-based builds. Even an old build, such as Spriggan / Bone Pirate / Balorgh, will match or exceed a Caluurion magblade's burst potential. I know, because I duelled one. I'm not exactly sure why this is. One overlooked factor, though by no means the only one, is the Riposte CP passive. I've been hit for 6K with that during bursts and it's physical damage.

For what it's worth, the most effective burst from Caluurion I've yet found comes from Elemental Weapon -> Soul Harvest -> Fear (Caluurion). Note Caluurion has a 1 second proc delay and people's natural reaction to being incapped - if they're any good - is to roll dodge or block. That's why Fear tends to work best as a CC (going through block). I also like it because Fear is AOE, debilitating players and NPCs around the target for a second.

You shouldn't kid yourself into thinking that magblades have it better than stamblades or that stamblades need procs. When Major Fracture was removed from Surprise Attack, a few patches back, I felt stamblades attacking me were blunted. This did not last. By now people have figured it out or things have changed again. Many stamblades hit super hard and, while things like Sheer Venom builds are possible, they don't have to use procs as far as I can tell nor do they all run Titanborn. I think Balorgh and Blood Frenzy are probably big factors.

Run Caluurion on a stamblade and you give away two lines of mag crit and 1x spell damage. It's also a mag-proc 3x out of 4, which benefits from spell pen, e.g. light armor. It won't work as well on a stamblade.

fred4 · September 2020

For the sake of the argument, I've put together the bog-standard build I imagine my duelling friend was running. Not sure whether the mag sustain is sufficient, but you could run Eternal Vigor instead of Bone Pirate. I've enabled temporary buffs in UESP to show the maximum gank potential of this build, but a lot of this is achievable and a consequence of stamblade burst rotation:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=277545

This is actually kind of eye-opening to me as a magblade. There is a natural tendency of magicka builds to stack into magicka, whereas stamina builds tend to stack into weapon damage. It's crazy what happens when you push the latter to the extreme. Look at that stam regen, though, and I'm not even using the Serpent mundus. There should be nothing wrong with the viability of this build.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO · September 2020

fred4 wrote: »

Run Caluurion on a stamblade and you give away two lines of mag crit and 1x spell damage. It's also a mag-proc 3x out of 4, which benefits from spell pen, e.g. light armor. It won't work as well on a stamblade.

Next patch those two lines of Spell Critical become generic Critical as well as all sources of Penetration. Caluurion could be used on stam more easily... just wasting the Spell Damage.

BangX · September 2020

Yep, I figured the 5 piece wouldn't work well for my stamblade, ty guys for your answers. At least now I don't have to grind another dungeon and that build looks pretty interesting Fred, will try it out later.

fred4 · September 2020

BangX wrote: »

Yep, I figured the 5 piece wouldn't work well for my stamblade, ty guys for your answers. At least now I don't have to grind another dungeon and that build looks pretty interesting Fred, will try it out later.

A key thing is that, as far as I know, Blood Frienzy operates outside the GCD. You can just turn it on and off inbetween other skills without losing a second every time. The idea is not to run down your health, unlike in Titanborn builds. You might actually use the other morph.

ScruffyWhiskers · September 2020

fred4 wrote: »

For the sake of the argument, I've put together the bog-standard build I imagine my duelling friend was running. Not sure whether the mag sustain is sufficient, but you could run Eternal Vigor instead of Bone Pirate. I've enabled temporary buffs in UESP to show the maximum gank potential of this build, but a lot of this is achievable and a consequence of stamblade burst rotation:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=277545

This is actually kind of eye-opening to me as a magblade.

No kidding. A 17k surprise attack. 28k incap. If only I could get that as a magblade. It's unfair I tell you. unfair.

JinxxND · September 2020

Is caluurions viable on a stamblade for a gank setup yes is it's prolly the best thing due to the penetration values and poor stats no.

Ezorus · September 2020

Not everyone os an encyclopedia of ESO it would help to explain what a set does or link it 🤔

ImSoPro · September 2020

Ezorus wrote: »

Not everyone os an encyclopedia of ESO it would help to explain what a set does or link it 🤔

It’s a proc set. Procs a fire ice lightning or disease on crit damage. Adds spell crit and spell damage as well.

ExistingRug61 · September 2020

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

For the sake of the argument, I've put together the bog-standard build I imagine my duelling friend was running. Not sure whether the mag sustain is sufficient, but you could run Eternal Vigor instead of Bone Pirate. I've enabled temporary buffs in UESP to show the maximum gank potential of this build, but a lot of this is achievable and a consequence of stamblade burst rotation:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=277545

This is actually kind of eye-opening to me as a magblade.

No kidding. A 17k surprise attack. 28k incap. If only I could get that as a magblade. It's unfair I tell you. unfair.

@ScruffyWhiskers
Here's the thing though - that setup @fred4 has can simply be flipped for equivalent magicka variants, so one would think you could get those values on a magblade.
ie: Wood Elf -> Breton, Spriggans -> Spinners, Bone Pirate -> Bright Throat, Lava Foot -> Ghastly, Physical CP -> Magical CP
These are either identical or very close, with Ghastly being slightly worse than Lava Foot, and the sustain is a bit different on Wood Elf vs Breton.
Only thing I can't really think of an equivalent for is the Masters Bow.

But what happens if you do this?
Skills are harder to make work, as you either lose minor berserk or keep an otherwise useless skill. Probably need pots for sorcery so can't use tri-pots. To fully optimise tooltip you still need inner light AND a siphoning skill for the mag boost. And even if you do so, which probably compromises the build, the tooltip is still not quite as good. (16.4k concealed, 26.4k Soul Harvest)

From what I can tell, the difference is due to not having an equivalent of the 15% bonus weapon damage from armour passive and lower base damage from the weapon, although the destro passive that adds 8% single target abilities somewhat makes up for it.
Instead Light armour gets penetration. However, above ~25k resistance on your target, you simply get that much penetration from using a maul.
Basically, in the case of trying to make an equivalent build, it simply works better to stack damage for stamina than magicka in this example.

And then if you look at the rest of it, regen is worse on the magicka version (arguably Breton's cost reduction could be worth this difference, I am not sure), resistance is on average the same (less physical but higher spell due to being a Breton so we'll call that even), but crucially, unlike the stam version, as stamina regen is low you can't roll or break free much at all, so chances of staying alive in melee combat are significantly lower. Instead the only real viable defense is cloak, and if that gets countered you have no chance, whereas at least the stamblade can fall back on roll dodge and block.

Now obviously this is why we don't build magblades this way, but this was just to illustrate a point.
Really reminds me while my dream of melee magblade that doesn't use proc sets is probably just that (outside of specialised gank builds).

For reference, here were the two I was comparing
Magicka: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=278544
Stamina: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=278545
Note: These were copies of fred4's build but I made a couple of adjustments. I turned off the Soul Harvest/Incap 20% bonus buff as that doesn't seem to be working in builder for Soul Harvest but it is for Incap so it was distorting the EWP/ESP values. I also changed the defenders base mitigation to 25k otherwise the magicka version was overpenetrating so it would have been an unfair comparison. I also didn't really put much thought into the back bar, was more just looking at the damage comparison.

fred4 · September 2020

@ExistingRug61: Good points and a very nice exercise to do. Gets us closer to where the actual pain points for magicka are.

Pain point #1: You rightly put Inner Light, Camou Hunter and Siphoning Attacks on the front bar to get passives, e.g. spell crit, Minor Berserk and +magicka. This left no room for Simmering Frenzy. There was a very good reason I put that on the front bar in the stamina build, though: It operates outside the GCD (please correct me if I'm wrong). On the stam build you can turn this on momentarily during Incap / Suprise Attack / Execute spam and turn it off without missing a beat, if your health gets too low. On the magblade you have to bar swap. That's a big difference.

Pain point #2: The stam build has Rally, the mag build has no burst heal. Also huge. The mag replacement on that bar, Siphoning Attacks, only works while you are able to stay on attack. It's of no use, if you are pushed into defense. In my experience staying on attack with Siphoning Attacks, Funnel Health (which this build doesn't even have) and an Infused Restore Health enchant only works against weak / low CP players these days.

Pain point #3: The stam build has a source of Major Brutality, the mag build lacks a source of Major Sorcery. This leaves the stam build much more flexible with potions.

Pain point #4: Stamina sustain. I've played my magblade without a shield for a long time. I even used Eternal Hunt at one point. In my experience you want at least 1K stamina regen as a melee magblade in that case, preferably 1.2K. Survivability improves considerably, if you slot Dampen. Dampen outperforms stamina regen, though you IMO need to retain 1x stamina regen enchant whatever you do (or wear Meridia's Blessed Armor). This gets you into a new set of considerations, such as finding bar space and the fact that you should build for magicka to make the most of Dampen.

Pain point #5: The stam build had room for a DOT / execute (Poison Injection), the mag build did not.

Pain point #6: Speed. Fitting Concealed Weapon and Shadowy Disguise onto the same bar while retaining the damage is not possible. Magblade has to cast RAT for Major Expedition. That is a GCD that I often don't have. I typically have to cast Healing Ward first and only have time to cast RAT when I'm already cloaked, e.g. I have to chance cloaking straight off Healing Ward into dodge roll. Compare that to a woodelf stamblade. One dodge roll on the bow bar gives you Major Expedition + woodelf passive and you have time to Vigor or cast Shuffle in the same GCD.

Thanks for correcting the lack of Vigor in my original build, by the way.

fred4 · September 2020

By the way, the stamblade can switch to Hissmir Fisheye Rye and retain tooltips similar to the mag build. This gives it 1.5K mag regen - also mag regen that works out of combat - for much better Cloak / Shadow Image sustain. I had already theory-crafted that version of the build, which is the one I would actually run. Those tooltips are also with Balorgh merely at 120 and it's still a 16K Surprise Attack:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=278498

fred4 · September 2020

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

From what I can tell, the difference is due to not having an equivalent of the 15% bonus weapon damage from armour passive and lower base damage from the weapon, although the destro passive that adds 8% single target abilities somewhat makes up for it.

To elaborate:

Magicka build has:
The destro passive
Light armor pen passive

Stamina build has:
Higher weapon damage stat of a 2H weapon (1807 vs 1535 Nirnhoned staff)
2H passive that gives 20% pen for mauls
+15% medium armor weapon damage passive

Take a target with 25K resistances, the maul penetration matches the light armor penetration and the crit roughly matches as well. That leaves the destro staff passive having to make up for the higher weapon stat plus the +15% weapon damage indeed.

fred4 · September 2020

Summary: You can't get away from the quality of skills. With skill bars limited to 5 skills each, you're depending on each skill having multiple functions and synergising with other skills. Magblade has some bad synergy issues:

Issue #1: The speed buff from Concealed requires you to slot Cloak and Concealed on the same bar. Try as you may, this just doesn't play well. Cloak more naturally belongs on your defensive back bar, whereas your spammable belongs on your offensive front bar. Slotting these skills on the same bar doesn't work well in terms of balancing the health bonus from shadow skills either.

Issue #2: Sap Essence being the source of Major Sorcery on magblade is nonsense. At the very least it doesn't fit with a ganking playstyle. You want this buff before your opener, which is not going to be Sap Essence nor is that a skill you would slot at all. By contrast, Momentum gives you Major Brutality, can be pre-cast in stealth without uncloaking you, gives you either a highly valuable burst heal or equally valuable root / snare immunity and is also a sustain skill. Those are three important functions wrapped up in one skill. This saves on bar space. There isn't a magicka equivalent. If Siphoning Attacks gave you Major Sorcery and could be recast for a small burst heal, not the same strength as Rally but like Living Trellis and scaling off magicka / spell damage, maybe then we'd be getting somewhere close to parity.

Issue #3: Camouflaged Hunter overperforms versus Inner Light. It gives you +3% weapon damage and Minor Berserk, vs. 7% magicka from Inner Light. You could argue this isn't true in the grand scheme of things, because of the crit damage and flanking requirement. Inner Light can also improve your shield strength. However all of these points are negated due to how the class plays. Slotting the shield on your front bar, while possible, leaves you constrained for damage dealing or damage enhancing skills on that bar. I find that I typically slot shields on the back bar in my builds or that I don't have room for both Inner Light and Dampen on the front bar. There certainly is no room for Concealed and Cloak and Inner Light and Dampen, such a mixture of offensive and defensive skills, on the front bar. Then, in terms of activating Minor Berserk, attacking with a guaranteed crit from the flank really is no problem for a nightblade. Yet again we have a case where the stamina skill synergises with real life builds, but the magicka skill does not. Viewed purely as a burst-enhancing skill, I would say Camouflaged Hunter is also just plain stronger.

ExistingRug61 · September 2020

@fred4
Yeah I knew when I was making the equivalent builds that it was just an exercise in seeing what the comparable damage was. I could tell just by looking at the mag version that it was in no way viable in terms of actual play and survivability, due to all the issues you have mentioned.
I just wanted to see if it could at least match tooltips.

In the context of the original question of this thread, I think it illustrates why Stamblade is effective at building for stats and this is probably the best choice for it as opposed to using Caluurion. This doesn't really work for Magblade, and hence leaves it resorting to a proc set like Caluurion instead.

Side note: And I have kept track your magblade builds with some interest for quite a while as well as I like to play similarly, albeit not as well. I did like the thinking out of the box Eternal Hunt as well, but didn't try it myself. For reference I am currently using Caluurions + Amberplasm. Not quite ideal as out of combat mag regen is low, but it was otherwise the most efficient way I could get the regen (both mag and stam) I felt comfortable with. I'm also thinking that I should try it without vampire, as I am not benefitting from the health regen from Amberplasm (or Sugar Skulls) as much as I could be, which may help survivability. Whether or not health regen actually is enough to make a difference is the question, but would obviously give up Strike from the Shadows.

fred4 · September 2020

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

@fred4
Yeah I knew when I was making the equivalent builds that it was just an exercise in seeing what the comparable damage was.

It was a very useful exercise. It came close to the stamblade build, but:

I could tell just by looking at the mag version that it was in no way viable in terms of actual play and survivability, due to all the issues you have mentioned.

Exactly. You showed me what the actual issues are, which I expanded upon a little.

Side note: And I have kept track your magblade builds with some interest for quite a while as well as I like to play similarly, albeit not as well. I did like the thinking out of the box Eternal Hunt as well, but didn't try it myself.

Flattered

.

For reference I am currently using Caluurions + Amberplasm.

My philosophy has always been Bright-Throat over Amber Plasm on magblade, but combine it with a drink such as Hissmir Fisheye Rye for the better Idle mag regen. Even more true since the Atro mundus stopped providing idle regen. For what it's worth, my current build is:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=269881

Stats are low as usual, but Meridia's allows for some crazy escapes. It's also perfect gank protection while turning a flag. Could go with Balorgh or 1x Skoria. I decided to go merely for stats on the monster side.