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Question to ZOS - Incentive for veteran players
Lab3360
✭✭✭✭✭
Let me ask a specific question.
"What is the incentive for veteran players if your going to penalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curve?
What is the incentive? I feel this a legitimate question.
Edited by Lab3360 on September 22, 2020 4:25PM "What is the incentive for veteran players if your going to penalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curve?
What is the incentive? I feel this a legitimate question.
7
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redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Players that learn the game and are on the top end of the learning curve are in a very small minority.
What's the incentive of appealing to a small minority when you can appeal to a large majority?
Not saying I agree with the changes, just that I see the logic behind it.5 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Same thing as always: new content, new achievements, new shiny rewards for completing said content, and bragging rights for completing the content on the hardest difficulty.
And you can re-experience the thrill of completing old content with different gear, skills, and group compositions!
Oh, wait, you wanted to get off the meta merry-go-round? Haha, haha, no. We have horizontal progression to maintain. Nerfs are always easier to implement than buffs.Edited by VaranisArano on September 22, 2020 4:33PM2 -
Spartabunny08✭✭✭✭The real question is why continuing playing this game as you have stated?
They do not care about vet players as redspecter said the minority so what's the point? Can't do both majority and minority you know a really wild concept to keep the players you have.
I honestly think they want vet players to leave cause we're the only ones with enough experience to know whats going on and complain about it.3 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***12 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
Your not a veteran player at 2 months.
Im not addressing issues for casuals.Edited by Lab3360 on September 22, 2020 8:04PM3 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If all they do is come on the threads and complain, then I hope nothing is done for this specific species of "veteran player". They are probably at the root of all the upheaval changes all the time anyway.
People who are not playing like them are happily playing ESO and never needed all these flip flop changes.
2 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
Your not a veteran player at 2 months.
And you are right. I dont speak for casuals.
precisely. and yet the mentality matches yours. meanwhile, I may have taken a break from a game for about a year or so, but I still started at launch and have been played for years now. I'm a "veteran" and yet my mentality is direct opposite of yours.
ergo. stop speaking of "Veterans" as if they all agree with you and think like you. you are speaking for hardcore players.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Same thing as always: new content, new achievements, new shiny rewards for completing said content, and bragging rights for completing the content on the hardest difficulty.
And you can re-experience the thrill of completing old content with different gear, skills, and group compositions!
Oh, wait, you wanted to get off the meta merry-go-round? Haha, haha, no. We have horizontal progression to maintain. Nerfs are always easier to implement than buffs.
Well, if its a player that play trials they get one thing a year and this years trial can be clear on vet blind.-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
Your not a veteran player at 2 months.
And you are right. I dont speak for casuals.
precisely. and yet the mentality matches yours. meanwhile, I may have taken a break from a game for about a year or so, but I still started at launch and have been played for years now. I'm a "veteran" and yet my mentality is direct opposite of yours.
ergo. stop speaking of "Veterans" as if they all agree with you and think like you. you are speaking for hardcore players.
Im not speaking of casuals0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
Agreed, having played since PC launch I consider myself a veteran player but I am not remotely affected by the sort of issue the OP raises. "Veteran" and "Min-Max" are two totally separate things, and shouldn't be confused.3 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »If all they do is come on the threads and complain, then I hope nothing is done for this specific species of "veteran player". They are probably at the root of all the upheaval changes all the time anyway.
People who are not playing like them are happily playing ESO and never needed all these flip flop changes.
Probably because they play the game like its Skyrm and only do overland and some questing and never tough a vet dungeon or vet dlc dungeon or trial or vet trial.
No reason any group should need to suffer for another. My point is it goes both ways.Edited by Lab3360 on September 22, 2020 8:13PM4 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
Your not a veteran player at 2 months.
And you are right. I dont speak for casuals.
precisely. and yet the mentality matches yours. meanwhile, I may have taken a break from a game for about a year or so, but I still started at launch and have been played for years now. I'm a "veteran" and yet my mentality is direct opposite of yours.
ergo. stop speaking of "Veterans" as if they all agree with you and think like you. you are speaking for hardcore players.
Im not speaking of casuals
no. and as such you are not speaking for veterans. you are speaking for specific subset of players, hardcores. regardless of how long they have been playing, given your description of and I quote directlypenalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curvedirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
Your not a veteran player at 2 months.
And you are right. I dont speak for casuals.
precisely. and yet the mentality matches yours. meanwhile, I may have taken a break from a game for about a year or so, but I still started at launch and have been played for years now. I'm a "veteran" and yet my mentality is direct opposite of yours.
ergo. stop speaking of "Veterans" as if they all agree with you and think like you. you are speaking for hardcore players.
Im not speaking of casuals
no. and as such you are not speaking for veterans. you are speaking for specific subset of players, hardcores. regardless of how long they have been playing, given your description of and I quote directlypenalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curve
Those would be veteran players2 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭You do not need to be a hardcore player to theorycraft, put together your own builds, or run vet anything.
Hardcore falls in the category of hard mode veteran trials, speed runs, skin runs and score runs.
The fact that you dont know that tells me your likely a casual player
Thats not a bad thing. It is what it is.Edited by Lab3360 on September 22, 2020 8:33PM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You do not need to be a hardcore player to theorycraft, put together your own builds, or run vet anything.
Hardcore falls in the category of hard mode veteran trials, speed runs, skin runs and score runs.
The fact that you dont know that tells me your likely a casual player
Thats not a bad thing. It is what it is.
sigh, I am a casualy player. that doesn't change the fact that I know players who have been in game for a few months and do theory-crafting, putting together builds, etc.
it also doesn't make me any. less. VETERAN.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭You do not need to be a hardcore player to theorycraft, put together your own builds, or run vet anything.
Hardcore falls in the category of hard mode veteran trials, speed runs, skin runs and score runs.
The fact that you dont know that tells me your likely a casual player
Thats not a bad thing. It is what it is.
sigh, I am a casualy player. that doesn't change the fact that I know players who have been in game for a few months and do theory-crafting, putting together builds, etc.
it also doesn't make me any. less. VETERAN.
Ok you can be vetran player. But, it doesnt change the fact that these types of changes that are becoming a normal pattern every 3 months from zos are hurting veteran players and long time loyalist. Its also going to hurt new people who would like to learn how to tank. The game already has a shortage of tanks. These mitigation changes will already exasperate the tank shortage in the game.
No one asked for these changes.
And around the corner after this proposed wave of nerfs is an incoming nerf or elimination of the CP System.
I dont see how any of this incentive
Edited by Lab3360 on September 22, 2020 8:52PM2 -
wishlist14✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
Well said ❤2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You do not need to be a hardcore player to theorycraft, put together your own builds, or run vet anything.
Hardcore falls in the category of hard mode veteran trials, speed runs, skin runs and score runs.
The fact that you dont know that tells me your likely a casual player
Thats not a bad thing. It is what it is.
sigh, I am a casualy player. that doesn't change the fact that I know players who have been in game for a few months and do theory-crafting, putting together builds, etc.
it also doesn't make me any. less. VETERAN.
Ok you can be vetran player. But, it doesnt change the fact that these types of changes that are becoming a normal pattern every 3 months from zos are hurting veteran players and long time loyalist. Its also going to hurt new people who would like to learn how to tank. The game already has a shortage of tanks. These mitigation changes will already exasperate the tank shortage in the game.
No one asked for these changes.
And around the corner after this proposed wave of nerfs is an incoming nerf or elimination of the CP System.
I dont see how any of this incentive
Changes every 3 months have been a feature, not a bug, ever since ZOS switched to horizontal progression with One Tamriel.
Its a necessity.
Constant change, though eventually wearying to players, is better than the death sentence of stagnation which leads to boredom.
Power Creep has to exist to keep players excited, but not too much because old content has to stay relevant.
I mean, what's the alternative? The same classes always getting picked for trials? The same builds always being ideal for PVP?
ZOS changes the meta, usually with nerfs, because it keeps the game from stagnating and old content from becoming obsolete (and new content from being so challenging no one but the elite can hope to do it).
And there isn't going to be "a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down" specially for the type of players who just lost the meta game of "who's king of the mountain." There never has been. You either quit, learn to play without chasing the meta, or you suck it up and adapt to the new meta with a different build.
What's the incentive for meta-chasing players?
There isn't one.
Unless you've seen an incentive any of the other times ZOS changed stuff and players whined about how ZOS just isn't respecting people with all that time and effort invested in their Blazeplar, saptank, tava's favor tank, insert nerfed meta build here.
You either chase the new meta because you want to be on top or you don't.3 -
Phaedryn✭✭✭Let me ask a specific question.
"What is the incentive for veteran players if your going to penalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curve?
How are you being penalized for "learning the game and creating builds"? (hint, you aren't)
[snip] You can take truly "good" players, players that understand the mechanics, took the time to perfect their rotations, players that have mechanic timings down pat and put them in training gear and they are still going to perform.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on September 23, 2020 1:31PM2 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭Let me ask a specific question.
"What is the incentive for veteran players if your going to penalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curve?
How are you being penalized for "learning the game and creating builds"? (hint, you aren't)
[snip] You can take truly "good" players, players that understand the mechanics, took the time to perfect their rotations, players that have mechanic timings down pat and put them in training gear and they are still going to perform.
[snip]
Thats just flat out false on ot face. Go ahead and tank vmol hard mode in rubedite gear. This game is gear driven without a doubt. Yes there is a large degree of potency within rotation. No question.
Sorry, your not competing without gear.
As far as top tier...a top tier player has the top gear to compete because its the only way to compete. A top tier player would know you need such gear to do vet trial hard mode, score runs and skin runs.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]
Edited by ZOS_Lunar on September 23, 2020 1:31PM2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let me ask a specific question.
"What is the incentive for veteran players if your going to penalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curve?
What is the incentive? I feel this a legitimate question.
I like playing the game. That is incentive enough. I've been in high end PvP and trial guilds where every piece of equipment and every skill was dictated by what helps the group most. It was fun for a while. I am now in a guild that is just beginning to progress through vet trials. They made it through their first vet trial (as a group) two weeks ago and went crazy with joy. Was fun to be a part of that again.
I've started a 2nd account and am taking a character through all the quests and content in the same order I took my very first character way back. Other than some gold to max inventory I'm not giving that character any help from my main account. I'm having a lot of fun with that character. Some of the quests I haven't done going back to the first few months of the game being released.
When the game changes I see how the changes affect me and I adjust if I feel it will make the game more fun. Within just a couple of days I've adjusted and am on my merry way.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Forgot to say I have a couple of friends in game that are extreme min/max types. They do all the number crunching, spend hours on rotations sometimes with a metronome to get the timing exact. Is interesting to listen to them in discord. One will be on a practice dummy and another will be watching and telling them late/early on each skill. They also learn all the mechanics of new content and when best to do what tactics. They thrive on the changes because they like figuring out the absolute maximum they can get. That kind of play would probably drive me mad but it is what they enjoy doing.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭Forgot to say I have a couple of friends in game that are extreme min/max types. They do all the number crunching, spend hours on rotations sometimes with a metronome to get the timing exact. Is interesting to listen to them in discord. One will be on a practice dummy and another will be watching and telling them late/early on each skill. They also learn all the mechanics of new content and when best to do what tactics. They thrive on the changes because they like figuring out the absolute maximum they can get. That kind of play would probably drive me mad but it is what they enjoy doing.
Thats how I have generally stayed interested in this game. But, these changes across the board changes is a little much.
A lot of veteran players I know within my veteran trial guild and other vet trials guilds are furious and feel slighted. Will figure it out as usual. But its definitely a shot.
Edited by Lab3360 on September 23, 2020 12:11AM0 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭Let me ask a specific question.
"What is the incentive for veteran players if your going to penalize them for learning the game and creating builds based on learning curve?
What is the incentive? I feel this a legitimate question.
I like playing the game. That is incentive enough. I've been in high end PvP and trial guilds where every piece of equipment and every skill was dictated by what helps the group most. It was fun for a while. I am now in a guild that is just beginning to progress through vet trials. They made it through their first vet trial (as a group) two weeks ago and went crazy with joy. Was fun to be a part of that again.
I've started a 2nd account and am taking a character through all the quests and content in the same order I took my very first character way back. Other than some gold to max inventory I'm not giving that character any help from my main account. I'm having a lot of fun with that character. Some of the quests I haven't done going back to the first few months of the game being released.
When the game changes I see how the changes affect me and I adjust if I feel it will make the game more fun. Within just a couple of days I've adjusted and am on my merry way.
Hey bud congrats to you and your guild.
I too am on an alt account starting over. My other 2 accounts will need complete retool also after these changes.
Thats pretty cool of you to help out progression guild.0 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm a 6 years veteran player and I'm really happy with what ZOS provides as vet content, from trials to dungeons and arenas, going through hard modes, trifectas (both for dungeons and trials), a lot of different difficult achievements and so.
And I know a lot more stuff will be coming year after year.
I'm honestly very, very satisfied.
Edited by Dragonnord on September 23, 2020 12:34AM0 -
Lab3360✭✭✭✭✭Spartabunny08 wrote: »The real question is why continuing playing this game as you have stated?
They do not care about vet players as redspecter said the minority so what's the point? Can't do both majority and minority you know a really wild concept to keep the players you have.
I honestly think they want vet players to leave cause we're the only ones with enough experience to know whats going on and complain about it.
It definitely kinda feels that way.
I understand zos wants to bring its newer players to the ceiling, but they should do it in a way without land blasting its veteran community. And I also feel that these changes are greatly due to pvp issue. Once again pve has to suffer for problems which are pvp related.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Same thing as always: new content, new achievements, new shiny rewards for completing said content, and bragging rights for completing the content on the hardest difficulty.
And you can re-experience the thrill of completing old content with different gear, skills, and group compositions!
Oh, wait, you wanted to get off the meta merry-go-round? Haha, haha, no. We have horizontal progression to maintain. Nerfs are always easier to implement than buffs.
Shiny rewards. More shiny rewards.1 -
x48rph✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »You do not need to be a hardcore player to theorycraft, put together your own builds, or run vet anything.
Hardcore falls in the category of hard mode veteran trials, speed runs, skin runs and score runs.
The fact that you dont know that tells me your likely a casual player
Thats not a bad thing. It is what it is.
sigh, I am a casualy player. that doesn't change the fact that I know players who have been in game for a few months and do theory-crafting, putting together builds, etc.
it also doesn't make me any. less. VETERAN.
Ok you can be vetran player. But, it doesnt change the fact that these types of changes that are becoming a normal pattern every 3 months from zos are hurting veteran players and long time loyalist. Its also going to hurt new people who would like to learn how to tank. The game already has a shortage of tanks. These mitigation changes will already exasperate the tank shortage in the game.
No one asked for these changes.
And around the corner after this proposed wave of nerfs is an incoming nerf or elimination of the CP System.
I dont see how any of this incentive
Changes every 3 months have been a feature, not a bug, ever since ZOS switched to horizontal progression with One Tamriel.
Its a necessity.
Constant change, though eventually wearying to players, is better than the death sentence of stagnation which leads to boredom.
Power Creep has to exist to keep players excited, but not too much because old content has to stay relevant.
I mean, what's the alternative? The same classes always getting picked for trials? The same builds always being ideal for PVP?
ZOS changes the meta, usually with nerfs, because it keeps the game from stagnating and old content from becoming obsolete (and new content from being so challenging no one but the elite can hope to do it).
And there isn't going to be "a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down" specially for the type of players who just lost the meta game of "who's king of the mountain." There never has been. You either quit, learn to play without chasing the meta, or you suck it up and adapt to the new meta with a different build.
What's the incentive for meta-chasing players?
There isn't one.
Unless you've seen an incentive any of the other times ZOS changed stuff and players whined about how ZOS just isn't respecting people with all that time and effort invested in their Blazeplar, saptank, tava's favor tank, insert nerfed meta build here.
You either chase the new meta because you want to be on top or you don't.
Some change is good, too much is not good, the constant never ending steam of changes to core parts of the combat is the worst. I dare say they've more than ventured into the territory of the last one. Heck they even change things and a month or two later change the same things which speaks to them having no goal or direction. They don't even wait to see the effects of the changes before they move to new ones. It's like they are determined to keep everyone hopping back and forth on one foot and somehow don't realize or don't care how wearying it is.3 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I wish people would stop equating veteran with hardcore minmaxers. they are NOT interchangeable. you could have been playing for less then two months and be far more invested into "learning and excelling" at the game then someone who has been playing for years.
because as a veteran player my primary motivation is and always has been casual content. and so you certainly do not speak for someone like me.
I agree, a lot depends on what is meant by "vet" players.
I have played since a month after PC launch. By "time in" I'm pretty vet.
Content wise? That's another story.
I have participated in 1 (one) trial. It took me two years to get a character "Vet" level (back when there actually were "vet" levels).
My favorite part of the game currently is housing, exploring and playing with friends.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0
