Major protection decrease to 10%

Lab3360 · September 2020

There is nothing major about major protection at 10%.
You have rendered your Mad God set absolutely worthless. Its a joke to have a chance to proc 3 very weak buffs together simultaneously considering all the of the nerfs to major and minor buffs.

Canned_Apples · September 2020

Because we needed more malacath proc gameplay and less skill based ones.

It really is a great move. I have less incentive to play or subscribe, .

Spartabunny08 · September 2020

Lab3360 wrote: »

There is nothing major about major protection at 10%.
You have renedered your Mad God set absolutely worthless. Its a joke to have a chance to proc 3 very weak buffs together simultaneously considering all the of the nerfs to major and minor buffs.

This game has lost it's mind... I'm so out of here. Fun is gone tanks are now dead healers dead proc set fights... what is wrong with these people thinking this is a good idea?

Definitely time to move on now lol casuals only game... trash.

NeillMcAttack · September 2020

Builds rocking major vitality pots with 80% uptime, damage reduction at 40%, resists at cap, around 25k stam or 30-35 mag, and still around 3500 WD or 2500-3000SD, are gonna struggle more.....

Aren’t these the nonsense builds everyone has been complaining about? Isn’t this what players wanted?

Lab3360 · September 2020

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Builds rocking major vitality pots with 80% uptime, damage reduction at 40%, resists at cap, around 25k stam or 30-35 mag, and still around 3500 WD or 2500-3000SD, are gonna struggle more.....

Aren’t these the nonsense builds everyone has been complaining about? Isn’t this what players wanted?

Those nonesense builds someone had to figure out by learning the game. If zos is going to kill builds everytime a veteran player figures something out, whats the point in building at all?

NeillMcAttack · September 2020

They had to figure out be learning or by googling!!

These builds are not that hard to play, I used to play them myself until I became insanely bored and ultimately took a long break from the game.
I played them on magblade and DK for a long time until all too often you would just get into fight after fight of stalemates. Only able to defeat complete noobs who weren’t taking advantage of these major/minor uptimes. Sometimes you didn’t even need to really, as your CP alone and good stats, could carry you to immortality.

This is one of the strongest moves ZOS has made towards PvP balance, and greatest push to build around group play over just building for tankiness on every spec.

Procs are a bit strong though tbf, I’m not arguing that.

Grandchamp1989 · September 2020

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Builds rocking major vitality pots with 80% uptime, damage reduction at 40%, resists at cap, around 25k stam or 30-35 mag, and still around 3500 WD or 2500-3000SD, are gonna struggle more.....

Aren’t these the nonsense builds everyone has been complaining about? Isn’t this what players wanted?

Damage mitigation is not a flat 40% bonus with maim+protection.
Mitigation is multiplicative stacking your mitigation bonuses which gives a highly diminished return, the more mitigation factor's there's already applied on your Tank.

For a Tank with high base mitigation to begin with (from armor, CP, Passives etc.) Major Protection can give you as little as 2-3% extra mitigation when you block. In some instances it is enough to barely survive being hit on your head.

Most Trial set ups don't even bother with helping the Tank with his mitigation - quite the opposite they're quite happy putting him in medium armor and have him use War Horn. They're 100% focused on maximizing damage output. You'll rarely see any major protection unless in very specific situations as it conlict with damage.

When things like protection and maim becomes interesting is for new Tanks in Vet DLC dungeons when the amount of buffs/debuffs is severely limited - because you're 4 people istead of 12. It's also interesting for achieveing certain hardmodes or just to give your Healer a chance to react if you get server delay on your block.
Also some Tanks rather focus on helping buffing the team at the expense of their own mitigation (selfish sets) in those instances it's also very nice to have protection and vitaliy being worth something.

I'm no expert but I think major tank buffs will be largely ignored if this goes through as it's barely worth it.

Edit for clarity: This is how PVE is impacted I've no idea how it affect PVP. But the way I see it PVP and PVE should be balanced seperately.

olsborg · September 2020

The only thing that makes pvp in this game dead boring is how ZOS keeps empowering the proccmeta, with malacath, and then nerf crits, and then make more and better proccsets with each DLC.

Thats whats keeping me from logging in.

Naftal · September 2020

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Because we needed more malacath proc gameplay and less skill based ones.

It really is a great move. I have less incentive to play or subscribe, .

Yeah that major prot surely takes a lot of skill to use.

ZOS_ConnorG · September 2020

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

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EmEm_Oh · September 2020

Lab3360 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Builds rocking major vitality pots with 80% uptime, damage reduction at 40%, resists at cap, around 25k stam or 30-35 mag, and still around 3500 WD or 2500-3000SD, are gonna struggle more.....

Aren’t these the nonsense builds everyone has been complaining about? Isn’t this what players wanted?

Those nonesense builds someone had to figure out by learning the game. If zos is going to kill builds everytime a veteran player figures something out, whats the point in building at all?

That's where CP should stay and benefit longtime players. There has to be an incentive for longtime players, as well as newcomers to want to aspire to higher levels...rather than just simply putting on a set and magically becoming OP.

Skander · September 2020

Have you bought Greymoor yet? We got artifacts!

trackdemon5512 · September 2020

Who uses major protection? Real question because besides wardens blasting permafrost I seldom see it used.

Lab3360 · September 2020

Naftal wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Because we needed more malacath proc gameplay and less skill based ones.

It really is a great move. I have less incentive to play or subscribe, .

Yeah that major prot surely takes a lot of skill to use.

If we are going with that type of thinking, the same goes with botton pushing.

relentless_turnip · September 2020

I think these changes are great, but as someone that has always played high damage fast builds this doesn't effect me much at all. I was just given more sustain, which i will in turn turn into damage. I play most classes as well, I have never enjoyed turtling up and giving out passive damage. I know a lot of people liked to play warden this way and I am genuinely sorry your style of gameplay was effected. I do believe long term this is a healthy change to the game.

Zeromaz · September 2020

Lab3360 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Builds rocking major vitality pots with 80% uptime, damage reduction at 40%, resists at cap, around 25k stam or 30-35 mag, and still around 3500 WD or 2500-3000SD, are gonna struggle more.....

Aren’t these the nonsense builds everyone has been complaining about? Isn’t this what players wanted?

Those nonesense builds someone had to figure out by learning the game. If zos is going to kill builds everytime a veteran player figures something out, whats the point in building at all?

You mean 90% of the population had to go to youtube or watch a stream. Hardly anyone thinks for themselves in this community

Sergykid · September 2020

@Grandchamp1989 do you mean blocking counts toward damage reduction together with Protection buffs? if true, does it apply to sets? how about defense from resistances?
meaning block is 60% defense, out of 10k damage incoming, i will get 4k damage while blocking. If i have a set like buffer of the swift in pvp, while blocking, out of the 10k damage hit, instead of getting 60% + 10% = 3k on hit, i will get instead 60% = 4k with 10% = 3.6k on hit damage?

i know defenses are multiplicative, normal and logical, but those multiply themselves from different sources? blocking stacks multiplicatively with sets and resistances too?

meaning that it's better to invest less in a big defense, than invest much in bigger defense?

ImSoPro · September 2020

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Who uses major protection? Real question because besides wardens blasting permafrost I seldom see it used.

The deaden pain skill on Necro grants major protection. Really useful and with constant corpses being created you can get pretty high uptime on it. I love it because it gives a small HOT and grants ultimate as well. Super clutch in a pinch.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · September 2020

We'll see when it comes out. But it seems like a headache for group compositions once again.
We just want to play the game ^^

MrTrenbolone · September 2020

Found the carrymancer abuser.

Vevvev · September 2020

Feel like this is going to hurt the Psijic Order skill line a bit. Losing 20% damage reduction while channeling abilities makes it even more risky to use them.

Grandchamp1989 · September 2020

Sergykid wrote: »

@Grandchamp1989 do you mean blocking counts toward damage reduction together with Protection buffs? if true, does it apply to sets? how about defense from resistances?
meaning block is 60% defense, out of 10k damage incoming, i will get 4k damage while blocking. If i have a set like buffer of the swift in pvp, while blocking, out of the 10k damage hit, instead of getting 60% + 10% = 3k on hit, i will get instead 60% = 4k with 10% = 3.6k on hit damage?

i know defenses are multiplicative, normal and logical, but those multiply themselves from different sources? blocking stacks multiplicatively with sets and resistances too?

meaning that it's better to invest less in a big defense, than invest much in bigger defense?

If you block it absolutely count towards your total mitigation and thus you'll get reduced return on your protection.
If you go with lower armor tank build for whatever reason you'll get much more return from a current "major protection" ability than if you're stacked to the brim with armor and CP mitigation.

What helps your mitigations is:
Hardy + elemtental defender (CP)
ironclad (CP)
Heavy armor focus/Spell Shield (for extra resistances counts towards your 33k cap) (CP)
Your regular armor (Armor adds both spell and physical resistance)
Block count towards your mitigation
Your sword n shield/Frost stave passives when blocking
Dragonknight passive
Protection and maim (minor and major)
Probably a few other's I may have forgotten.

Protection+maim is extremely useful if you're holding several one-shot adds in vet DLC, and want to be able to surive a hit if you miss a block.
It's also highly useful for tanks with lowish armor rating as it sort of makes up for it when active.

A 2/3rd nerf to protection, maim and Vitality is an extremely hard hit to NB, Warden, Necro and Templar who all got access to major versions of them in one form or another through their skill lines. Probably end up being trivial morphs/abilities if this goes through.

Daffen · September 2020

Sergykid wrote: »

@Grandchamp1989 do you mean blocking counts toward damage reduction together with Protection buffs? if true, does it apply to sets? how about defense from resistances?
meaning block is 60% defense, out of 10k damage incoming, i will get 4k damage while blocking. If i have a set like buffer of the swift in pvp, while blocking, out of the 10k damage hit, instead of getting 60% + 10% = 3k on hit, i will get instead 60% = 4k with 10% = 3.6k on hit damage?

i know defenses are multiplicative, normal and logical, but those multiply themselves from different sources? blocking stacks multiplicatively with sets and resistances too?

meaning that it's better to invest less in a big defense, than invest much in bigger defense?

All types of damage mitigation works like this 1-(1-first mitigation)*(1-second mitigation). So if you have major protection and are using buffer of swift it will look like this 1-(1-0.30)*(1-0.08)=0.356=35.6% damage mitigation. Adding block mitigation works the same way.

However, the block mitigation gets calculated differently. You have a default 50% block mitigation, equipping a shield increases block mitigation by 20%. This 20% gets added like this 0.5+(0.5*0.2)=0.6=60% block mitigation. Notice how having a source of 20% more block mitigation and 10% block mitigation is not 80%, but 65% because 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)=0.65=65%.

And your last statement is interesting as the total damage decreased by additional mitigation might seem lower, while it is at the fixed % less damage. Its easier to stack block mitigation to get damage reduction than normal damage reduction. Best example is heavy armor skill that has potential to buff block mitigation by 35% meaning you can get a total off 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)+(0.5*0.35)=0.825=82.5% block mitigation.

Thats the main reason why permablock tanks take almost no damage.

Aznarb · September 2020

Yeah this change will made all ult who give this buff useless cuz way to costly for a so little buff..

Sergykid · September 2020

Daffen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

@Grandchamp1989 do you mean blocking counts toward damage reduction together with Protection buffs? if true, does it apply to sets? how about defense from resistances?
meaning block is 60% defense, out of 10k damage incoming, i will get 4k damage while blocking. If i have a set like buffer of the swift in pvp, while blocking, out of the 10k damage hit, instead of getting 60% + 10% = 3k on hit, i will get instead 60% = 4k with 10% = 3.6k on hit damage?

i know defenses are multiplicative, normal and logical, but those multiply themselves from different sources? blocking stacks multiplicatively with sets and resistances too?

meaning that it's better to invest less in a big defense, than invest much in bigger defense?

All types of damage mitigation works like this 1-(1-first mitigation)*(1-second mitigation). So if you have major protection and are using buffer of swift it will look like this 1-(1-0.30)*(1-0.08)=0.356=35.6% damage mitigation. Adding block mitigation works the same way.

However, the block mitigation gets calculated differently. You have a default 50% block mitigation, equipping a shield increases block mitigation by 20%. This 20% gets added like this 0.5+(0.5*0.2)=0.6=60% block mitigation. Notice how having a source of 20% more block mitigation and 10% block mitigation is not 80%, but 65% because 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)=0.65=65%.

And your last statement is interesting as the total damage decreased by additional mitigation might seem lower, while it is at the fixed % less damage. Its easier to stack block mitigation to get damage reduction than normal damage reduction. Best example is heavy armor skill that has potential to buff block mitigation by 35% meaning you can get a total off 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)+(0.5*0.35)=0.825=82.5% block mitigation.

Thats the main reason why permablock tanks take almost no damage.

yeah this is getting over me ... i don't really understand it. If i want to build a tank, instead of going full into defensives, i rather use a single defense as the others following will be reduced. So having both major protection and minor protection is worse than having major protection and something else instead of minor protection, like minor main since it's not affected by diminishing returns. For templar for example, as i have minor protection always up, a set like Buffer of the Swift is worse than for example Pariah, since the base resistances are better because the Buffer of the Swift will get diminishing returns from the minor protection buff.

this is the part where good people are good because they know how to build correctly, which i don't like because it's not equal chances for every player. I want to build effectively, but i don't know and can't find all those details that matter when building a character as optimal as it can be. I often meet players that completely smash any understanding of me on how can they be so much defensive while having so much damage while also having infinite sustain.

Lab3360 · September 2020

Daffen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

@Grandchamp1989 do you mean blocking counts toward damage reduction together with Protection buffs? if true, does it apply to sets? how about defense from resistances?
meaning block is 60% defense, out of 10k damage incoming, i will get 4k damage while blocking. If i have a set like buffer of the swift in pvp, while blocking, out of the 10k damage hit, instead of getting 60% + 10% = 3k on hit, i will get instead 60% = 4k with 10% = 3.6k on hit damage?

i know defenses are multiplicative, normal and logical, but those multiply themselves from different sources? blocking stacks multiplicatively with sets and resistances too?

meaning that it's better to invest less in a big defense, than invest much in bigger defense?

All types of damage mitigation works like this 1-(1-first mitigation)*(1-second mitigation). So if you have major protection and are using buffer of swift it will look like this 1-(1-0.30)*(1-0.08)=0.356=35.6% damage mitigation. Adding block mitigation works the same way.

However, the block mitigation gets calculated differently. You have a default 50% block mitigation, equipping a shield increases block mitigation by 20%. This 20% gets added like this 0.5+(0.5*0.2)=0.6=60% block mitigation. Notice how having a source of 20% more block mitigation and 10% block mitigation is not 80%, but 65% because 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)=0.65=65%.

And your last statement is interesting as the total damage decreased by additional mitigation might seem lower, while it is at the fixed % less damage. Its easier to stack block mitigation to get damage reduction than normal damage reduction. Best example is heavy armor skill that has potential to buff block mitigation by 35% meaning you can get a total off 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)+(0.5*0.35)=0.825=82.5% block mitigation.

Thats the main reason why permablock tanks take almost no damage.

The Heavy Armour skill you speak of does not work. The 35% mitigation from the skill currently will not add to block mitigation

Daffen · September 2020

Sergykid wrote: »

Daffen wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

@Grandchamp1989 do you mean blocking counts toward damage reduction together with Protection buffs? if true, does it apply to sets? how about defense from resistances?
meaning block is 60% defense, out of 10k damage incoming, i will get 4k damage while blocking. If i have a set like buffer of the swift in pvp, while blocking, out of the 10k damage hit, instead of getting 60% + 10% = 3k on hit, i will get instead 60% = 4k with 10% = 3.6k on hit damage?

i know defenses are multiplicative, normal and logical, but those multiply themselves from different sources? blocking stacks multiplicatively with sets and resistances too?

meaning that it's better to invest less in a big defense, than invest much in bigger defense?

All types of damage mitigation works like this 1-(1-first mitigation)*(1-second mitigation). So if you have major protection and are using buffer of swift it will look like this 1-(1-0.30)*(1-0.08)=0.356=35.6% damage mitigation. Adding block mitigation works the same way.

However, the block mitigation gets calculated differently. You have a default 50% block mitigation, equipping a shield increases block mitigation by 20%. This 20% gets added like this 0.5+(0.5*0.2)=0.6=60% block mitigation. Notice how having a source of 20% more block mitigation and 10% block mitigation is not 80%, but 65% because 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)=0.65=65%.

And your last statement is interesting as the total damage decreased by additional mitigation might seem lower, while it is at the fixed % less damage. Its easier to stack block mitigation to get damage reduction than normal damage reduction. Best example is heavy armor skill that has potential to buff block mitigation by 35% meaning you can get a total off 0.5+(0.5*0.2)+(0.5*0.1)+(0.5*0.35)=0.825=82.5% block mitigation.

Thats the main reason why permablock tanks take almost no damage.

yeah this is getting over me ... i don't really understand it. If i want to build a tank, instead of going full into defensives, i rather use a single defense as the others following will be reduced. So having both major protection and minor protection is worse than having major protection and something else instead of minor protection, like minor main since it's not affected by diminishing returns. For templar for example, as i have minor protection always up, a set like Buffer of the Swift is worse than for example Pariah, since the base resistances are better because the Buffer of the Swift will get diminishing returns from the minor protection buff.

this is the part where good people are good because they know how to build correctly, which i don't like because it's not equal chances for every player. I want to build effectively, but i don't know and can't find all those details that matter when building a character as optimal as it can be. I often meet players that completely smash any understanding of me on how can they be so much defensive while having so much damage while also having infinite sustain.

The way veteran players create their builds is using the build editor: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

Adding all the buffs you can see your mitigation and values you will have on live server. I tend to aim for around 80% mitigation in pvp and a decent spammable tooltip, minimum 11k on instant cast abilities. Then i will test the build on pts if there are players there or straight to live server if its easy to make the build. After playing with it i will figure out what i need more, either more damage, healing, mobility or mitigation. In live server i will always test it in 1vx situations as you need alot of mobility, tankiness, healing and burst damage to be able to do it correctly.