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Sotha Sill

kinguardian
kinguardian
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From the 3 Sotha Sill seems the one that is the least arrogant.
He does seem to care about people because he did put a few back together with machine parts. But then there is a whole group of people that are poor and ill and have nothing to eat.
Why does Sotha Sill not help these people?

I do not know the lore of the elder scrolls well enough but it bothers me that he have this going in his city.

Who has answers for me?
  • Aigym_Hlervu
    Aigym_Hlervu
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    If Sotha Sil helps them, that will ruin the entire society he created, the entire social system of the Clockwork City. If that happens, the City dies. In order to understand why, you have to understand the nature of it's dominant socio-economic formation and the environment those people live in. Read this article of my Guide to Socio-Economic Formations of Tamriel to understand why those people became poor, Tarnished, and then you will understand why do the Apostles do nothing to help them.

    After it you will see that to ask Sotha Sil or the Apostles to help them is the same thing as to ask a slavemaster help slaves who do not work, to ask a feudal to give all his lands and everything on it to peasants, to ask a businessman to share his income with those who do not work for him. Clockwork City is an isolated socialistic society living in a very harsh environment. Each member of this society works for the entire society only - from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution. Money, private property do not have any value there - if you are clever, skilled and ready to work for the society as an entity, as the only property holder, you can become an apostle or a crafter, a merchant, etc. Depends on the skills you have. The Tarnished do not have either abilities or don't want to make any contribution necessary to the rest of the society in order to survive in the harsh environment, they work for themselves only. To help them means to distribute social wealth to those who do not create it by their labour - that will lead to capitalism and capitalism being dominant in that particular environment would destroy the majority of the population and thus the entire city, leaving a few of the survived asset holders and hundreds of the factotums working for them as the only survivors. Until only one survives.

    Now on why Sotha Sil does not make a paradise to all there. Since Sil is a god-creator of that clockwork world, the one who's responsible for everything happening there, it's a good question to ask why does he allow Evil to ever exist. We don't know why for sure, but all we can do is to create models and analyze it from our perspective. The devs created ESO, a world with it's inhabitants, problems, lack of justice, wars, violence, etc. What would have happend if we had no such "evil" things like all PvP and PvE content, i.e. everything that brings violence from the in-game perspective? No Three Banners War, no Planemeld, no Battlegrounds, no money to make all the items be given for free? The ESO would be a dull world nobody would ever play and thus, from the in-game perspective, the world would have never been that populated, so it would have died. So, when you create a world, you have to set up and maintain the balance of Good and Evil - if you make one prevail over another, people will not come to your world being either horrified of constant suffers or bored of a paradise-like life in there. This is why, I think he does not help anyone directly there, otherwise he should have reconstructed the city itself to make it more hospitable entirely. This is what I think on that.
  • Xaramasa
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    If you ask him during the end of "The Light of Knowledge" if he's supposed to be a god, this is what he has to say:
    "I am whatever the people need me to be. A guardian. An oppressor. For some, too distant. For others, too meddlesome. I am the canvas upon which they paint their dreams and resentments. A vessel for their hopes and doubts.
    A mirror. Nothing more."

    Sotha Sil created the Clockwork City for one goal: Anuvanna'si - Tamriel Final. Essentially, he's recreating Nirn free of Padoamic concepts. He's recreating the world without the imperfections of the Daedra for:
    Where others see dark crowns numbered ten and six, Sotha Sil sees shadows and nothing more. For the Daedra are the lie that creation tells itself. Like their father, Padomay, they are Nothing. And in the Tamriel Final, Nothing shall hold no sway. Anuvanna'si. Their black mountain called "Oblivion" shall sink into the Furnace of Forgotten Numbers, where all lies burn and brittle multitudes turn to slag.

    Seht does not consider himself a god nor does he cultivate any worship from his followers. Even the Clockwork Apostles, who follow his "teachings", are merely trying to interpret the things he does and what they see as the mystery of his realm.

    If you noticed during the Clockwork City quests, the whole "search for a sponsor" thing and political/religious structure of the city is all run by his Apostles. Proctor Luciana Pullo outright tells you that Sotha Sil doesn't really care for any of the people within his city, and Gascone's actions are actually a result of the resentment he feels for being ignored by Sotha Sil.

    The Clockwork City is Sotha Sil's personal laboratory and testing ground where he's attempting to replicate the mechanisms of the world in order to bring about a new one. He is willing to let people live in his realm, but he's ultimately not responsible for their personal affairs.

    Understand that Sotha Sil's ambivalence or indifference isn't because he's heartless. He lets people live in the Clockwork City after all which, relative to what's happening on Nirn at the moment, is a safer haven than most.

    Sotha Sil is simply too busy with the work he's set himself to do. By the end of the 2nd Era, he'll retreat from the world to work on the Mechanical Heart to serve as both a power source for his fellow tribunes and the Clockwork City as at that point, he has lost one of Kagrenac's Tools to Dagoth Ur's forces.

    True, there are less fortunate people within his realm and some are starving, but that's the point. His realm replicates the mechanics of the world (Nirn), suffering included. Without all these little details, his great experiment will fail. He created Fabricants for that purpose; it just so happened that there were people willing to follow him to his city which, as mentioned already, is a harsh environment.

    A question for you: If Sotha Sil catered to the whims of every one of his inhabitants, do you think the Bosmer Chef Brengolin would be able to come up with food that actually tastes like food for his friends in the Slag Town Outlaws Refuge? Food that he plans to eventually share with everyone in the Clockwork City to replace the tasteless paste that everyone begrudgingly has to eat?


  • kinguardian
    kinguardian
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    @Xaramasa

    Yes he would have still come up with different recipes because it is his passion and he wants to share it with everyone because he enjoys seeing people enjoying his food.

    The difference is that he would make quicker progress because he would have better access to what he needs.
  • vestahls
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    Clockwork City was made as a replica of Nirn, like a prototype for Nirn Final. As a copy, it has to copy all the things that make Nirn work, and that includes hierarchies in a society. Everyone has a role, even if that role is being at the bottom of the pyramid.
    “He is even worse than a n'wah. He is - may Vivec forgive me for uttering this word - a Hlaalu.”
    luv Abnur
    luv Rigurt
    luv Stibbons

    'ate Ayrenn
    'ate Razum-dar
    'ate Khamira

    simple as
  • Xaramasa
    Xaramasa
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    @Xaramasa

    Yes he would have still come up with different recipes because it is his passion and he wants to share it with everyone because he enjoys seeing people enjoying his food.

    The difference is that he would make quicker progress because he would have better access to what he needs.

    He already has access to all that he needs to create those dishes. The materials are readily available throughout the realm.; the "special items" he asks you to get are stuff that other people brought with them to the Clockwork City.

    He just needed that drive to whip them up. The lack of palatable food is what drove him to create those dishes - all because Sotha Sil did not provide food or actual animals to hunt in his realm.

  • Dovakhan
    Dovakhan
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    ...now I so want to rush thou Cadwell's Gold just to start the daedric wars quests....damn self-imposed quest order xD
  • Ratzkifal
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    The way I see it Sotha Sil has completely lost his empathy after millenia of being a god and having a deeper understanding of reality than any other person alive (probably even including Vivec and Almalexia).
    Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't force anyone to live in his Clockwork City. His most devout worshippers probably begged him to take them to his Clockwork City so they could see the miracles with their own eyes. Sotha Sil granted their wish and got back to his work, leaving them to their own devices. And because it was never meant to be inhabited by anyone other than the living god himself and his creations, it's not a good place to be living in, so the people there have to make the most of it or perish. And they cannot leave either because it would reveal the secret of the Clockwork City's whereabouts.

    On a sidenote, ESO has kind of broken the continuity there by implying that everyone outside now suddenly knows about where Clockwork City is and can get stuff from there, like the Skeevatons seen in Frostvault. It also makes you think why the Daedra, now that they know, don't come back for round two and invade Clockwork City again. Perhaps it's pointless without the Skeleton Key? Or it has something to do with Sotha Sil's leverage that made the Daedra agree to the Coldharbour Compact?
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Xaramasa
    Xaramasa
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    The way I see it Sotha Sil has completely lost his empathy after millenia of being a god and having a deeper understanding of reality than any other person alive (probably even including Vivec and Almalexia).
    Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't force anyone to live in his Clockwork City. His most devout worshippers probably begged him to take them to his Clockwork City so they could see the miracles with their own eyes. Sotha Sil granted their wish and got back to his work, leaving them to their own devices. And because it was never meant to be inhabited by anyone other than the living god himself and his creations, it's not a good place to be living in, so the people there have to make the most of it or perish. And they cannot leave either because it would reveal the secret of the Clockwork City's whereabouts.

    On a sidenote, ESO has kind of broken the continuity there by implying that everyone outside now suddenly knows about where Clockwork City is and can get stuff from there, like the Skeevatons seen in Frostvault. It also makes you think why the Daedra, now that they know, don't come back for round two and invade Clockwork City again. Perhaps it's pointless without the Skeleton Key? Or it has something to do with Sotha Sil's leverage that made the Daedra agree to the Coldharbour Compact?

    The Skeevaton Tharayya uses in Frostvault was smuggled from the Clockwork City, although I doubt Sotha Sil minds stuff getting taken from his realm. He certainly didn't mind Barilzar creating his Mazed Band, which was ultimately what killed him when Almalexia used it in the Late Third Era. The Skeevatons seem to be just fabricant versions of Skeevers/Mice until the Apostles started tinkering with them to use as spying devices.

    As for the Daedra Lords not invading the Clockwork City again, I think it's not the what's in the city itself that was important to Nocturnal but Sotha Sil's knowledge.
    Then hear my words. Nocturnal stole a secret I thought well hidden. I developed a technique for utilizing life energy as a source of power. I suspect she will use that technique to amplify the Crystal Tower."

    She used the Skeleton Key to lock the Clockwork God in place in the Throne Aligned, which I think implies that even if a Daedric Prince managed to take over the City itself, it would be of no use to them without Sotha Sil willingly revealing its secrets.

    Knowing Nocturnal, the invasion of the city could have just been posturing so that Mephala and Clavicus Vile wouldn't notice that what she was actually after Sotha Sil's technique.
  • JD2013
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    I think your analysis is good, though slightly incorrect.

    Sotha Sil is the most benevolent of him, Vivec and Almalexia. He is also the most morose and crushed by the pressure of absolute certainty and duty.

    Vivec enjoys Godhood. Almalexia relishes it. Sotha Sil does not seem to share this. He does not do things out of kindness, and prefers to be quite hands off with his Apostles, due to the fact that some could see it as being overbearing. Some see it as not being hands on enough.

    He does things because he feels he is compelled to, and therefore must. He reveals quite a bit to The Vestige about who he really is after the main quest of Clockwork City, and that whole long conversation was deeply fascinating and wholly satisfying as a lover of the lore.

    Don't mistake duty for kindness. If Sotha Sil did not feel compelled to do what he does, it would end up like areas of the Clockwork City that he just disregards and leaves incomplete or changes. He even brokered a deal with Daedric Princes. Again, because he feels it his duty to do so. But he has a heck of a lot more heart than the other two false Gods.
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  • kinguardian
    kinguardian
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    JD2013 wrote: »
    I think your analysis is good, though slightly incorrect.

    Sotha Sil is the most benevolent of him, Vivec and Almalexia. He is also the most morose and crushed by the pressure of absolute certainty and duty.

    Vivec enjoys Godhood. Almalexia relishes it. Sotha Sil does not seem to share this. He does not do things out of kindness, and prefers to be quite hands off with his Apostles, due to the fact that some could see it as being overbearing. Some see it as not being hands on enough.

    He does things because he feels he is compelled to, and therefore must. He reveals quite a bit to The Vestige about who he really is after the main quest of Clockwork City, and that whole long conversation was deeply fascinating and wholly satisfying as a lover of the lore.

    Don't mistake duty for kindness. If Sotha Sil did not feel compelled to do what he does, it would end up like areas of the Clockwork City that he just disregards and leaves incomplete or changes. He even brokered a deal with Daedric Princes. Again, because he feels it his duty to do so. But he has a heck of a lot more heart than the other two false Gods.

    This made a lot of sense to me.
  • kinguardian
    kinguardian
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    Dovakhan wrote: »
    ...now I so want to rush thou Cadwell's Gold just to start the daedric wars quests....damn self-imposed quest order xD

    I get what you mean :D I do that. I want to follow a certain order what in my eyes makes the most sense.

    I would do clockwork city before summer set though because that makes more sense.
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