How is the AOE test being evaluated? Cyrodiil is a ghost town

Dovakhan · September 2020

I liked going to Cyrodiil as a healer. It was difficult to be an efficient one in any group due to the penalties that healers already carry, and mine being kinda a makeshift one, with only Restoration staff skills, but I still managed to be a decent one.

Now, with the new AoE rules, my char is mostly useless, plan and simple. Even with Blessed at 100 and equipment boosts, there's just no way to keep up with the damage done.

So, bye bye to PvP for me. They wanted to remove lag? They're gonna succeed indeed, but only because tons of players are gonna stop PvPing. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

driosketch · September 2020

Are they going to run bots from different locations around the world on different ISPs? You aren't going to replicate the live servers better than the actual live servers. Testing conditions will change behaviors, this is true. But even if players use less AoE on their bar, that's also good, since this test is about throttling AoE use. I don't think they were looking for exactly 2/3 less actions from players playing exactly the same otherwise. Just that less AoE would be used. Whether you swap to single target or even if you stay away, you are helping to test "less AoE". If you are concerned this test would become a solution, you should be in there trying to create lag to disprove the hypothesis.

I wish I had saved that cartoon of the dog with ball saying "fix lag", "no test, only fix."

pauld1_ESO · September 2020

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

On test servers you can only have much less people. If you think that now we have no useful data, than on test servers it can be only worse, so what's you point?

I think my point is clear. Did you not get it?

If you disagree with my point I can handle that, but don't ask me what my point is when I clearly stated it.

pauld1_ESO · September 2020

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Just don't make ZOS a fools They know how many people are there, they can compare perfomance with similiar population numbers in past. Do you really think that they won't take into account obvious parameters of tests? Also just wait for weekend - there will be full campaigns with no problem - only difference will be with shorter queues

I see what this is now.

Jaimeh · September 2020

Cheezits94 wrote: »

As a Magplar Healer main, i am staying the hell away from cyrodiil this week, and i enjoy the action in IC instead.
My build is not viable with that cooldown, literally ALL my skills are AoE (as I said, magplar HEALER) and I am not willing to completely respec my char into a DD.

Yup, I went in with my templar healer just to see how bad it would be and it is indeed completely inviable. On main campaign, DC/AD were on zero bars, EP on one bar, and they had gotten all emp keeps. It seems people are steering clear this week.

Hurbster · September 2020

Is there any point in magplars and magcros turning up for the first 4 weeks?

karekiz · September 2020

Hey guys nobody is in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil doesn't Lag. Abilities are reason. Limit them forever now.

Gorreck · September 2020

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

On test servers you can only have much less people. If you think that now we have no useful data, than on test servers it can be only worse, so what's you point?

Mak

idk wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

....and those that are in cyrodiil have all changed their builds and bars to not use any aoe's.

I'm pretty sure thats the idea behind the tests. They are saying they think it is the AOEs doing calculations to determine who it hit in an area and by how much so they want to see if less AOEs are used, if performance gets better. I don't think they care much about how well it works on abilities as they have said they would have to review abilities once they coclude which tests work at reducing the lag.

The unfortunate thing is; this really came to a head at Update 25 with degrading performance leading up to that and for whatever reason; they can't seem to go back. That also was the patch where they took out a huge chunk of client file size

Correct. However, Zos is saying that it is that we can lay down AoE at a faster pace than intended and we used to do. Our sustain has improved over time. I guess Zos has grown tired of crimping our sustain. In the end, Zos is really just collecting information here. They are not testing to see what design will work best going forward as much as they are working to collect information and then they will devise a solution.

Templar jabs (magic and stamina) is worse sustainwise and slightly slower that it EVER was and it is still on the AOE cd (which basically breaks the class in Cyrodill).

Dojohoda · September 2020

My game time is mostly occupied by the IC event and farming Western Skyrim housing recipes. I've managed to squeeze in a little time for Cyrodiil, but not much.

techyeshic · September 2020

Hurbster wrote: »

Is there any point in magplars and magcros turning up for the first 4 weeks?

Next week; when it is just a CD for the specific ability, maybe. Its really difficult for mag characters IMO where your heals are considered AOE because of smart targetting.

Gorreck · September 2020

Kosef wrote: »

All this lag and stuff would be fixed if they just allowed pvp all over with a flag system. Then it wouldn't be centralized to cyrodiil.

OR MY FAVORITE IDEA:

a SEPERATE server for cyrodiil only. Where the entire point of logging into that server is for realm pvp. You would be able to copy a character from live servers over, and interchange them on a weekly basis if you wish. Once that character is selected, it's locked to cyrodiil for that week.

As we saw in mid-year mayhem this year they could just boost the PvP shards as well.

Jaraal · September 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Damnationie wrote: »

Can we just put this "we have to do this on live" nonsense to bed.

Outside the gaming industry, in the more general IT world, if you are doing performance investigations, live is the last place you go to do performance testing. I've over two decades in programming, a lot of spent as a troubleshooter of misbehaving systems and this idea you can't find performance problems on the test system is a warning sign I've come across a number of times. What it normally translates too is
We don't want to spend money on a proper test system that is a proper scaled down replica of our live system.

We don't know enough about how the system works to set up a proper test system.

Proper testing automation and load testing tools have not been purchased for use by the developers.

Trying to get people without the experience / expertise in trouble shooting to investigate complex issues because they won't spend for specialist help.

None of what ZOS is doing makes logical sense if they actually want to solve their issues. For a performance test to be any good you need to have control over the inputs and be able to repeat the exact same activity every time you adjust the code.

If the conditions are not identical than you cannot properly gauge the impact of a change. For example, currently there is a global GCD cool down in Cyrodiil. As a result a lot of people seem to be just removing those skills off their skill bars, maybe leaving just one. So the test is not actually seeing the impact of the changes to performance, rather the impact of people using different skills altogether. As they try the different scenarios they have suggested people will again alter their characters to suit. So each test will not be comparable to each other. Any conclusions they draw will be flawed, and no, you can't compensate for that. Been there, watched as a lot of people made bad decisions with confidence resulting in a major disaster.

What they should be doing is going and getting a load of bot scripts (If they don't have test automation tooling they'd work just as fine for this) and running them on their internal test system to replicate standard player activity. With monitoring you can see the impact each bot has and the impact of each of the skills. You can enable debug level tracing of the code and properly determine where the code bottlenecks are. Debug level logging enabled on most production applications would crash them. Its why you don't do this type of testing in live.

You can start with one simulated player and just ramp up the numbers each run watching performance. As you add simulated players you'd start to see the pain points and bottlenecks in the code. They may not get as dramatic as what is happening on live but it should be detectable. And from that you can figure where to look and once you make changes you can get a reliable read on whether they had any impact or not. What they are currently doing is hoping they can find a solution.

What they are currently doing falls into the less then professional end of the IT world.

I suspect the combat team is considering transitioning into a cool down based system (instead of the current APM system) in order to narrow the skill gap they want to fix. So I think that's the real reason behind this test. They want to judge how their player base reacts to longer cool downs on their abilities and have cleverly disguised the ploy as an experiment to reduce lag.

I agree with this.

I believe it's a done deal, but they want the players involved so they can say, well, you guys did this (the test) and this happened, so we're doing this. Let the players share the responsibility (blame) so that it doesn't become something they just drop on us out of the blue and we say OMG you never asked us about this or if we wanted it. They'll be able to say something like, well, you guys did this and that during the test and it made x difference and we want you to have a smoother playing experience like you had during the test, etc.

Major_Lag · September 2020

AoE cooldowns = omegalul, so many classes and builds are just completely nonviable now.

Add to that the major sweeping changes common to every major update, and the general brokenness of this particular patch (ie. the mount stamina issues, to name but one thing), and I feel pretty comfortable about putting away my sword staff and instead taking up a hammer and a saw.
Housing development never seemed more attractive than it does now...

And considering that on PC-NA I was seeing unusually low population values in Cyrodiil since the tests hit, it looks like I'm far from being alone in my assessment of the situation.

zaria · September 2020

BigBragg wrote: »

I just want to know who thought running a Cyrodiil test overlapping an Imperial City even was the right call.

This one want to know

That they are smoking.

Seriously.

rrimöykk · September 2020

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Just don't make ZOS a fools They know how many people are there, they can compare perfomance with similiar population numbers in past. Do you really think that they won't take into account obvious parameters of tests? Also just wait for weekend - there will be full campaigns with no problem - only difference will be with shorter queues

Well, they took into account that NO ONE ever wanted perfected weapons for vMA yet they decided to do so as "popular" request. So yes, they will do whatever they want and ignoring almost everything the community says.

Canned_Apples · September 2020

I tried it for a minute, but I called it when rapid regeneration healed a random instead of me...and then it went on cd for three seconds. No thanks.

Major_Lag · September 2020

Everything is clearly working as intended:

Premise: AoE spam causes lag in PvP
Test setup: put cooldowns on AoEs, making most of them outright unusable or nonviable to use
Test result: a lot less lag in Cyrodiil due to low player population and almost no AoE use
Conclusion: AoEs are evil

Do note that the underlying "logic" would have been no less (in)valid if the conclusion is replaced by any other arbitrarily chosen statement, for example "GOTO considered harmful".

The whole premise of the "tests" is fatally flawed to begin with, since instead of testing "what happens when players use less AoEs" what is actually being tested is "how Cyrodiil performs with a lot less players in it"... which is a foregone conclusion.

Kagukan · September 2020

PCNA Cyrodiil is dead even in prime time. No way you can do a reasonable test right now. I am sure IC event has a lot to do with it but another reason is because of the horrible population imbalance. When I log on and see EP at 3 bars to pop lock and AD and DC at 1 or 2 bars, I log off. Its unfortunate my sub just renewed

karekiz · September 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

The whole premise of the "tests" is fatally flawed to begin with, since instead of testing "what happens when players use less AoEs" what is actually being tested is "how Cyrodiil performs with a lot less players in it"... which is a foregone conclusion.

Yup its a flawed test. Lower pop = less lag. Tossing an event on top basically is counter.

For example high end PvP streamers are generally ironically not in Cyro etc.

zaria · September 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

Everything is clearly working as intended:

Premise: AoE spam causes lag in PvP
Test setup: put cooldowns on AoEs, making most of them outright unusable or nonviable to use
Test result: a lot less lag in Cyrodiil due to low player population and almost no AoE use
Conclusion: AoEs are evil

Do note that the underlying "logic" would have been no less (in)valid if the conclusion is replaced by any other arbitrarily chosen statement, for example "GOTO considered harmful".

The whole premise of the "tests" is fatally flawed to begin with, since instead of testing "what happens when players use less AoEs" what is actually being tested is "how Cyrodiil performs with a lot less players in it"... which is a foregone conclusion.

Now you could just reduce AP earned in Cyrodil to 1/2 as in current double ap event and you get less people so less problems.
Also secondary graphic settings. in my view its 70% is an client issue

Lapin_Logic · September 2020

Cheezits94 wrote: »

As a Magplar Healer main, i am staying the hell away from cyrodiil this week, and i enjoy the action in IC instead.
My build is not viable with that cooldown, literally ALL my skills are AoE (as I said, magplar HEALER) and I am not willing to completely respec my char into a DD.

If you are not willing to test then you can never complain about performance in the future, they need you in there using your ingenuity to find ways around the limits or expose the massive flaws in the limits, they cant do that is they have no data from "magplar healers" using skills to test how strong they are.

FWIW your AOE heals should be placed when the fight is settled in an area, it makes little sense to spam ritual or springs while everyone is sprinting and spamming BOL isn't super effective on its own even with no CD, Just make sure you have regen on folks and apply your buffs and debuffs till it is suitable to drop your AOE's

SirAxen · September 2020

PVP players: Cyrodiil is broke and needs performance improvements!
ZOS: *literally starts doing drastic things like live tests to help them out*
PVP players: "How dare they?!? We are shutting down until the tests are over."
ESO: *Doesn't get data it needs to improve the pvp experience*

Sanctum74 · September 2020

It’s funny to see people telling others to just go in and test when they have no basic understanding of classes like templar and warden who the majority of their skills are aoe. If they are a healer then they are even more screwed because all their skills are aoe. Using 1 skill every 3 seconds is not a proper test and just results in people logging off since they are unable to play their character or roll.

If you’ve been here long enough you’d know that people have been spamming aoes for years when the population was much higher and the performance was much better.

All the performance issues were introduced from bad coding in patches that they ignored for years and now they are trying to butcher the game rather than invest the millions they've made to actually fix it, but yeah let’s blame the players.

Moloch1514 · September 2020

Not that they are asking for any feedback during these tests, but I just took my Templar healer into Cyrodiil and it was completely non-viable. All 10 of my skills had the cooldown, so I obviously was unable to play as the game/Battlespirit/siege damage intended (high APM healing from a block-cast).

trackdemon5512 · September 2020

I mean if you protest by optioning to not participate for data they absolutely need then don’t [snip] and whine when changes you don’t like are made. ZOS is asking for a huge amount of feedback well beyond the Test Server and with the needs of large population of Live Players. They’re being open and forthright about it AND the various ways they’re trying to test/accommodate in order to accomplish the constantly maligned large-scale PVP.

The entire last year was ZOS attempting to make performance enhancements to prevent any of this happening and the developers have said that the improvements thus far haven’t been close to enough. So this is what we get.

All I know is that the Q1 update next year when these changes are likely to go into effect will be interesting and I’ll have a ton of popcorn for reading the forum complaints.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

oregonrob · September 2020

I have been grinding one of my magplars to get to Assault 5 in order to get rapids back again. I got into a fight that I should have won but because of the (put your own descriptive adjective here) universal cool downs I could not keep up my sustains and my adversary took me down. Even if you are a stamplar, I would think twice about going to Cyrodiil until the test is over.

Jaraal · September 2020

Cheezits94 wrote: »

As a Magplar Healer main, i am staying the hell away from cyrodiil this week, and i enjoy the action in IC instead.
My build is not viable with that cooldown, literally ALL my skills are AoE (as I said, magplar HEALER) and I am not willing to completely respec my char into a DD.

Pretty bad for squishy Nightblades who want to fight more than one person at a time, too. Charge them with a Lotus Fan (wait three seconds), hit Whirling Blades (wait three seconds), proc Sheer Venom (wait thr..... never mind, they killed me already).

Log out, go see what new MMORPGs are coming out soon.....

You think the tank meta is bad now, just wait until it takes five minutes to kill anybody.... if you can kill them at all. If you can't stack effects, you're asking for perpetual stalemates, especially when each target can still spam and/or stack their single target self heals.

idk · September 2020

Gorreck wrote: »

idk wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

....and those that are in cyrodiil have all changed their builds and bars to not use any aoe's.

I'm pretty sure thats the idea behind the tests. They are saying they think it is the AOEs doing calculations to determine who it hit in an area and by how much so they want to see if less AOEs are used, if performance gets better. I don't think they care much about how well it works on abilities as they have said they would have to review abilities once they coclude which tests work at reducing the lag.

The unfortunate thing is; this really came to a head at Update 25 with degrading performance leading up to that and for whatever reason; they can't seem to go back. That also was the patch where they took out a huge chunk of client file size

Correct. However, Zos is saying that it is that we can lay down AoE at a faster pace than intended and we used to do. Our sustain has improved over time. I guess Zos has grown tired of crimping our sustain. In the end, Zos is really just collecting information here. They are not testing to see what design will work best going forward as much as they are working to collect information and then they will devise a solution.

Templar jabs (magic and stamina) is worse sustainwise and slightly slower that it EVER was and it is still on the AOE cd (which basically breaks the class in Cyrodill).

I would suggest this is not about one skill. That can be altered easily.

Also, Zos could take a different path than what people think is obvious right now. The best we can do is provide well thought and constructive feedback from actual testing. I say that because much of the posts and threads have been complaining for the sake of complaining and pretty sure Zos can see right through that.

Major_Lag · September 2020

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

FWIW your AOE heals should be placed when the fight is settled in an area, it makes little sense to spam ritual or springs while everyone is sprinting and spamming BOL isn't super effective on its own even with no CD, Just make sure you have regen on folks and apply your buffs and debuffs till it is suitable to drop your AOE's

Although your reasoning is sound from a "common sense" perspective, it stands at odds with both the "dynamic" (ie. very spammy) nature of ESO combat system, as well as with the highly mobile nature of PvP in general.

ESO is not like pretty much any other MMO in existence, where the average AoE HoT might have a duration of roughly 20-45 seconds and a cooldown of 1-5 minutes.
Here the average AoE HoT has a duration of 10-15 seconds and a (global) cooldown of 1 second. Same for AoE instant heals, which also share the 1 second global cooldown.

This, coupled with the unpredictable, highly mobile nature of group PvP in general, means that it's not really possible to "set up the battlefield" in ESO in the way you describe. Which is why AoE HoTs frequently end up being recast long before their timer expires, as your group has already moved far out of their range after 2-4 seconds.

SirAxen wrote: »

PVP players: Cyrodiil is broke and needs performance improvements!
ZOS: *literally starts doing drastic things like live tests to help them out*
PVP players: "How dare they?!? We are shutting down until the tests are over."
ESO: *Doesn't get data it needs to improve the pvp experience*

PvP players: ZOS, PvP is a lagfest and our abilities frequiently fail to fire, please do something about it!
ZOS: *makes abilities not firing a "feature", in the process driving many players out of PvP and reducing lag as a side effect* There, have fun now.

Sometimes ZOS is like an evil genie, taking our wishes and twisting them in the worst possible way. This is one of those times.
As a player, I find it highly insulting how they purport to seek for a "solution" by deliberately amplifying the underlying problem, and then try to pass it off as "testing" which is obviously fatally flawed right from the very start.

Tammany · September 2020

Non-CP EU is fully pop locked and alive, the test goes well, plenty of people
So it's ur not populated server issue. don't blame zos for NA players being passive

PCNA Cyrodiil is dead even in prime time. No way you can do a reasonable test right now.

Devs should stop babysitting NA and focus on EU servers since its Cyro test is more representative due to population