raasdal wrote: »

Uh, thanks for the tip. Last time i tested it, several years ago now, it only worked on the main heavy, as it should. Not on the offhand.

Guess i gotta give it a try now

FYI - your math is off and the damage is actually higher. The modifiers stack multiplicatively. So it is in fact 1.25 X 1.5 x 1.7 = 3.18

So 4514 x 3.18 = 14.354

No cooldown. GG.

It does however require some setup to get the off balance and this is for StamDK only. And adding Malacath in the math is a bit unfair as all procsets get that buff nowadays. So thats like status quo.

My old build used vMSA Destro for an additional base 2500 HA dw dmg. I guess a lightning version would be great for that off balance vomvo

Thank you for the input. If what you said is true, its no wonder this set is 1-2 shotting people in battlegrounds. The instant burst damage is off the charts.

i think i ran into someone using this with knight slayer the other day, he sliced off what seemed like half my hp with one dw heavy.

Qbiken wrote: »

Aren´t you the same person who defended "proc-sets" a few weeks ago in another thread? And now you complain about Seargent´s, one set that isn´t even remotely as unbalanced as many other things out there (smite, sheer venom etc...)

It´s so obvious that this thread was created due to some personal issue with the set, most likely being victim to it. So ye, can´t take threads like this serious

Exactly, sabre plays bgs and is a bow using stamcro who uses brp bow (with draining shot), sheer venom and hunters venom, and holds onto goliath ult for when hes about to die. Combined with stamcro dot passives and BB major defile, this is one of the most annoying cheesiest setups you could come across. He also uses triple swift himself.

Exactly what decimus said. Proc sets should be balanced around conditions. The highest tooltip proc sets atm are basically no brainers with 100% proc chance.

You can block, roll and even interrupt or sidestep heavy attacks. Its super easy to outplay them so they should have an equivalent tooltip. Doylemish is one of the hardest proc sets to trigger, since people can roll or break free almost instantly so it should always be highest tooltip.

The same thing should also go for skills. Natures grasp for example has the same tooltip as other heal over times, despite having one of the hardest conditions to cast this skill. The gapcloser doesent work most times, if it fails it consumes 4k magicka and you cant use it solo without bear.

@sabresandiego_ESO you must include the heavy attack wind up as a cool down. Sure its seconds, but its there.

With a base damage of 2257 (even at x2) the amount of dedication required to build around... Makes it no less OP than most everything in the Meta.

Like, do we compare Zaan with Elfbane and the band? Nope... But the damage would be staggering mathematically

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Aren´t you the same person who defended "proc-sets" a few weeks ago in another thread? And now you complain about Seargent´s, one set that isn´t even remotely as unbalanced as many other things out there (smite, sheer venom etc...)

It´s so obvious that this thread was created due to some personal issue with the set, most likely being victim to it. So ye, can´t take threads like this serious

Proc sets that are balanced are fun. Burst proc sets like Seargent's that are grossly over performing due to developer oversight/bug/exploit aren't remotely balanced. Gina Bruno's comment I linked at the bottom of my original post supports the notion that the double proc from Seargent's on dual wield heavies is either bugged or a developer oversight.

Burst proc sets like Sergeant (or Infiltrator) require you to land an easily dodgeable heavy attack while your target is off balance - I'd say this is healthy design as far as procs sets go as it takes a few steps to apply and can be avoided.

If you're looking for actual broken proc sets... well, you don't have to look far: plenty out there that require absolutely no player skill to utilize (proc conditions being for example: land a Poison Injection) and wind up being more damage than players' actual abilities.





Sergeant & Infiltrator as they stand are perfectly balanced (in fact, both of those sets provide less burst than Doylemish which is another heavy attack set that has even more proc conditions) and seeing them ruined similar to how Sunderflame was (literally no one uses this set anymore) would be a shame, especially while much worse proc sets dominate the meta.

Seargent's is not balanced, the math and the developer comments from 2017

I'm gonna stop you right there and highlight what's wrong with your argument.

Did Sheer Venom exist in its current form in 2017? How about Venomous Smite? Was Syvarra's buffed back then or was it just 5k damage over 6s? Did we have Unleashed Terror?

2017 was a very different environment, both for proc sets and max stat sets. Over the years we've seen "power creep" across different procs and yes, also max stat sets.

What might seem strong compared to something out of 2017 really isn't that strong in 2020 compared to other 2020 things out there.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

indicate that the set is not functioning as intended when it is literally twice as powerful on dual wield as it is on any other weapon. Adding 11000-15000 burst damage on top of every heavy 900ms apart is not balanced. To pull those numbers off some skill is definitely required, but there are plenty of skilled players in this game. Just because its not a completely brain dead build doesn't mean that burst that can 1-2 shot people in battlegrounds is justified.

Fun fact: I would trade Sergeant/Infiltrator for Caluurion (or Winterborn) in a heartbeat if stamina versions existed (no, Red Mountain isn't comparable as it is considerably slower than Caluurion projectile and thus easier to dodge).

Caluurion tooltip? 14 200 base

Also 11 000-15 000 is an exaggeration, the full heavy attack with Sergeant and Infiltrator hits for 17k damage in noCP with Corrosive up. The benefit from each individual set is much less than that when you account for initial heavy attack tooltip.

Other "avoidable procs" like Selene, Velidreth etc also feature 11-14k tooltips.

Most of the unavoidable procs feature atleast 10k tooltip with shorter cooldowns than the burst oriented ones.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Saying heavy attacks are easily avoidable is also an ignorant statement. In the hands of a good player who is in heavy armor and stacking speed -> you're going to be hit or run out of stamina blocking/rolling trying to evade heavies which take half your HP and land every 900ms. A DK will petrify you when you roll the heavy. The build is harder to use correctly than most proc builds, but when its done correctly is absolutely broken. Old Viper was 8400 every 4 seconds and this is 11000-14000 every 1 second if you set it up correctly and have the skill to execute it. This isn't a build for total noobs, but its grossly overperforming in the right hands.

Heavy Attack builds are strong yes, but they can be countered. For instance you won't have to worry too much about them when you're off balance immune and that's usually the time to pressure them instead.

I do play a heavy attack DK so I know exactly what they're capable of, but I wouldn't say they're overperforming compared to other broken setups out there (draugrkin stam sorc, malacath ring triple proc bowcro, winterborn magden, caluurion rangedplar are just a couple of other builds I play).


Just from pure gameplay perspective though I'd say these heavy attack sets and other more complicated procs are much healthier for the game as they can't be abused by literally anyone to perform above their skill level in PvP and cause frustrating situations in game for players who actually put in the time and effort to excel at the game.

As an example I'd raise two bow builds who haven't even figured out how to animation cancel light attacks applying poison injection on you with Sheer Venom & Venomous Smite slotted. If you play a cleanseless class, you're pretty much dead there with zero counterplay to two players who should've never been able to kill you.

This set as well as undaunted infiltrator are potentially bugged or a balance oversight. The fact that the set is twice as good on dual wield as it is on any other weapon is a clear indication of that. Zenimax clearly stating that Seargent's was never intended to buff the offhand dual wield heavy attack damage back in a post from 2017 is further evidence of this. What likely happened is that when the Seargent set was buffed several patches ago, the programmer made a mistake which allowed it to "double buff" dual wield heavies. And that's why these 1-2 shot builds are possible.

precambria wrote: »

At least it's confined to the type of weirdo who will play a heavy attack build and not 6 people all running bombard with venomous smite in any given 12 man bg or getting chain procs for 15 seconds because venom sheer venom and selestrix all got injected on to you

Heavy attack builds are stronger in NOCP battlegrounds

You can build 5-7 heavy, 25-30k health, max speed from 3 swift and steed and a source of major expedition, then stack stamina/weapon damage while ignoring sustain due to heavies returning resources and meditate. I stayed quiet about this build for a very long time because I considered the build "creative". But now that these heavy attack builds are 1-2 shotting people due to a potentially bugged set (Seargent's Mail), it was time to raise awareness.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

At least it's confined to the type of weirdo who will play a heavy attack build and not 6 people all running bombard with venomous smite in any given 12 man bg or getting chain procs for 15 seconds because venom sheer venom and selestrix all got injected on to you

Heavy attack builds are stronger in NOCP battlegrounds

You can build 5-7 heavy, 25-30k health, max speed from 3 swift and steed and a source of major expedition, then stack stamina/weapon damage while ignoring sustain due to heavies returning resources and meditate. I stayed quiet about this build for a very long time because I considered the build "creative". But now that these heavy attack builds are 1-2 shotting people due to a potentially bugged set (Seargent's Mail), it was time to raise awareness.

Seargent's Mail:
2257 dmg added to heavies
x2 because of Dual Wield Zenimax Oversight: 4514
25% boost from malacath
50% boost from molten armament
70% boost from off balance
145% total boost -> 4514 x 2.45 = 11059.3

I dont understand how this is 1-2 shotting people.

First I dont see battlespirit being applied - so I'm looking at 5500 ish damage? Even getting hit twice is only bringing a normal non 30k+ health build to half health. (No I havent included the heavy attack damage, but with this set up i cant imagine it being huge)

You're relying on off balance, which I do not believe will allow you to buff more than one heavy attack - I do not find this to be reliably consistent enough to be an issue

Molten armament is DK only and heavy attacks 1 shotting people from a stealthed DK is nothing new, and IMO based on the build dedication is fine (like a snipe NB gank build)

You cant just throw the set on and just start 1 shotting people.

I just feel like either I'm missing something, or you're overreacting based on a lack of comparison to other builds.

Great Post Azramel. I have never had an issue with heavy attack builds and they have been extremely strong in battlegrounds in the right players hands for several years. I always considered them unique and creative despite being exceptionally powerful and somewhat cheesy since they not only cost no resources, but return them (allowing you to min max with little consideration for sustain). They are also burst damage the same way procs like Viper were. This is one of the reasons they turned sunderflame into a DOT.

It's not until the Seargent's Mail bug where the damage went from ridiculous but manageable -> to absurd 1-2 shotting people that I feel I have to raise awareness of this potential exploit.

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it takes 4 secs+ to kill an opponent its not fair to compare to the old viper proc build. Which literally was 1 GCD (viper, red mountain, velidreth) 8 + 13 + 11 (30k tooltip from proc sets alone)

Edit: and proc sets could crit then oh how much fun...

I'm not really sure what you mean by this or why your quoting me. I'm also not sure how something that was changed years ago is relevant to the current patch and standards. Can you clarify how your post is relevant to what I said?

Two dual wield heavies plus one skill all land in the same instant. This is called burst damage. The amount of burst damage that lands when you factor in all the modifiers of Seargents + malacath + molten armaments + offbalance + whirlwind will 1 shot most people in battlegrounds that are in the 60-80% health range, and 2 shot (meaning two heavy combos) most other players who are at full health. And its all pure burst damage that being in heavy armor and building for maximum movement speed allows you to land. This type of build was already overpowered back when sunderflame was a burst proc set, but now that Seargent's is bugged on dual wield and double dipping, its borderline exploiting. If you don't believe the amount of damage being done, I suggest you try it yourself in a battleground.

Waffennacht wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Two dual wield heavies plus one skill all land in the same instant. This is called burst damage. The amount of burst damage that lands when you factor in all the modifiers of Seargents + malacath + molten armaments + offbalance + whirlwind will 1 shot most people in battlegrounds that are in the 60-80% health range, and 2 shot (meaning two heavy combos) most other players who are at full health. And its all pure burst damage that being in heavy armor and building for maximum movement speed allows you to land. This type of build was already overpowered back when sunderflame was a burst proc set, but now that Seargent's is bugged on dual wield and double dipping, its borderline exploiting. If you don't believe the amount of damage being done, I suggest you try it yourself in a battleground.

I would, however I do not believe I can just jump on my DK and change everything and still perform well. If what you say is true then I'll get the wrong impression because I probably wont do it justice.

I do think I'm missing something, because it's not 11k damage after battlespirit correct?

Also, if its a bug and not supposed to work that way, even if it isnt OP then it should be changed.

However I'm still not convinced that it's any more powerful than other setups

I play the build (albeit Infiltrator Lightning Staff instead of 2H off bar), the heavies are consistent 16-17k damage in noCP when you have Corrosive up (crits being taken out of equation with Malacath Band).

This is with the entire build being dedicated towards hitting hard with the heavy attack (two 5p sets) and after triggering Off Balance on your target for that additional 70% damage on heavies.


The funny thing about this post is that there's about a dozen other builds that deal more damage than heavy attack stam DK with less pre conditions required. Dark Flare->Meteor+Javelin with Caluurion proc is brutal for instance and nukes even double shield stacked blocking mag sorcs.

The powerful thing about heavy attack stam DK I'd say is the consistency and relatively good tankiness you can obtain, but damage wise there are more broken things.


Easy counter for OP: pay attention to when you're off balanced and don't stand close to a heavy attack stam DK when you are.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

precambria wrote: »

At least it's confined to the type of weirdo who will play a heavy attack build and not 6 people all running bombard with venomous smite in any given 12 man bg or getting chain procs for 15 seconds because venom sheer venom and selestrix all got injected on to you

Heavy attack builds are stronger in NOCP battlegrounds

You can build 5-7 heavy, 25-30k health, max speed from 3 swift and steed and a source of major expedition, then stack stamina/weapon damage while ignoring sustain due to heavies returning resources and meditate. I stayed quiet about this build for a very long time because I considered the build "creative". But now that these heavy attack builds are 1-2 shotting people due to a potentially bugged set (Seargent's Mail), it was time to raise awareness.

I dunno. It is a LOT of effort to land about the same damage that I could do with zero effort with other sets, and keeping all the same benefits...speed, health, and ignoring sustain. I love the idea of Doylemish, for example, but in practice it is a giant hassle.

That said, that is what proc sets should be...I have to land a difficult, easy to counter attack, on a target with limited condition like a stun or off balance in order to get a Big Payoff. Not "do damage".