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Why aren't AOE cool downs universally game wide for the test?
TineaCruris
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What was the reasoning behind only having AOE cool downs in cyrodiil? If this kind of stupidity goes live, they are going to have to make it universally game wide aren't they?
It seems only fair that everyone should endure the testing, not just those of us that mostly PvP. They aren't going to be able to implement a change like this to only PvP anyway. So may as well get everyones opinions on the test.
It seems only fair that everyone should endure the testing, not just those of us that mostly PvP. They aren't going to be able to implement a change like this to only PvP anyway. So may as well get everyones opinions on the test.
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Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭They aren't going to be able to implement a change like this to only PvP anyway.
Well, they kinda just did so I think it's obvious that they can do it if they want.
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dcam86b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭The reasoning is because Cyro is the place that causes all the issues. There are many more varying scenarios in PvP than in PvE. They need the test to give them the raw data for those specific encounters and that 'human" factor.
This is just a first phase of testing that then will be compiled to improve the game play for both PVE /PVP.
The AOE CD is just a phase of testing the actual implementaion could work differently.7 -
Mainly because the people who complain about nerfs are in Cyrodiil/PvP area's. Why make us PvE'ers suffer? xD We PvE players have to deal with nerfs all the time just from people who complain in PvP. So please don't talk about not making us endure such a test and considering it fair.I have been a member of ESO since April 4th 2014 but didn't get a code until recently when I asked.
My @ name on ESO is the same as on here.20 -
TineaCruris✭✭✭✭✭DarknessShallFall wrote: »Mainly because the people who complain about nerfs are in Cyrodiil/PvP area's. Why make us PvE'ers suffer? xD We PvE players have to deal with nerfs all the time just from people who complain in PvP. So please don't talk about not making us endure such a test and considering it fair.
All changes to the game should be made to everyone everywhere equally, or not made at all.
It's not going to work if they try to implement this test full time only for PvP zones. That will not fly, ever. All changes will have to be made to all portions of the game. Otherwise they are making two different games.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They don't even know if this is the problem yet. They are testing. When you test, you control variables. PVE does not have the same crippling performance issues that PVP does. It is a logical place to start.
This isnt about some twisted concept of fairness in the great war that is PVP/PVE. It is about fixing a broken game.22 -
ganzaeso✭✭✭✭✭TineaCruris wrote: »What was the reasoning behind only having AOE cool downs in cyrodiil? If this kind of stupidity goes live, they are going to have to make it universally game wide aren't they?
It seems only fair that everyone should endure the testing, not just those of us that mostly PvP. They aren't going to be able to implement a change like this to only PvP anyway. So may as well get everyones opinions on the test.
Understand the situation before crying wolf.
I understand you are frustrated and want others to share in that frustration, but ZOS gave us plenty of warning about this change on the forums.
The test plan is set and there will be no deviations.
The changes are temporary for now and most of us have already guessed the results.(Math before coffee, except after 3, is not for me)4 -
Rexy18✭✭✭Why would you need this in PvE though? Do you get 5 FPS and 999 ping in trials/dungeons?14 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭TineaCruris wrote: »DarknessShallFall wrote: »Mainly because the people who complain about nerfs are in Cyrodiil/PvP area's. Why make us PvE'ers suffer? xD We PvE players have to deal with nerfs all the time just from people who complain in PvP. So please don't talk about not making us endure such a test and considering it fair.
All changes to the game should be made to everyone everywhere equally, or not made at all.
It's not going to work if they try to implement this test full time only for PvP zones. That will not fly, ever. All changes will have to be made to all portions of the game. Otherwise they are making two different games.
This makes no sense because pvp is inherently different than pve. We have the Battle Spirit passive in pvp for a reason and it works fine, so the aoe tests being pvp-only is fine as well.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |8 -
Yes that is true. But you're fighting other players, not NPC's, they would otherwise have to make all NPC's have the same mechanic as players if they did it. Besides, PvP and PvE are in a way, two different games, because it has two different mechanics. And many players believe that PvE and PvP needs to be separated. Still, it would be hard to test it in PvE, than it would in PvP, mainly due to the event right now, because everyone is in IC. So what better place to test it, than PvP. Not only that, but would you want to be running dungeons, including vet ones, with the testing going on? At least you're fighting other players who have to suffer too and not vet monsters/bosses.I have been a member of ESO since April 4th 2014 but didn't get a code until recently when I asked.
My @ name on ESO is the same as on here.0 -
Nairinhe✭✭✭✭✭
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Why?TineaCruris wrote: »It's not going to work if they try to implement this test full time only for PvP zones. That will not fly, ever.2 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For years I've advocated balancing PvP and PvE separately.
We already have two different games. I look at a PvP player in heavy armor with full impen trait. I see a long list of things that battle spirit changes. I see that I can taunt my foes in PvE but not PvP. The objectives, gear, skills and tactics are totally different - and often at odds.
Balancing PvP and PvE together. . . how's that worked out after what? Five years? Result? Division and resentment between the two communities as each blame each other for nerfs they don't like instead of considering that the two activities really are quite incompatible and need to be managed separately.Edited by AcadianPaladin on September 8, 2020 5:24PMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo20 -
Gythral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Probably because that would result in zero players...
“Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy3 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
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Why?TineaCruris wrote: »It's not going to work if they try to implement this test full time only for PvP zones. That will not fly, ever.
Because people want to win, and when you can't win you go to the places where your chances are much higher. PVPers will just move to the Imperial City which is currently full of people, Battlegrounds, or go into known dueling spots around the world that are free of the cooldowns. Only those that actually do care for the success of their faction, aim for getting emperor, and enjoy playing in large open world PVP are the ones that'll stay behind. Even then if it becomes too painful for them they might just leave even if the rewards are increased to compensate.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
Eur0ed✭✭TineaCruris wrote: »DarknessShallFall wrote: »Mainly because the people who complain about nerfs are in Cyrodiil/PvP area's. Why make us PvE'ers suffer? xD We PvE players have to deal with nerfs all the time just from people who complain in PvP. So please don't talk about not making us endure such a test and considering it fair.
All changes to the game should be made to everyone everywhere equally, or not made at all.
It's not going to work if they try to implement this test full time only for PvP zones. That will not fly, ever. All changes will have to be made to all portions of the game. Otherwise they are making two different games.
A change like this in PVP applies to both sides of the fight.. (not defending it, I believe it to be a misguided attempt at best) Where as a change like this in PVE would require a re-balancing of every encounter in the game, both from a straight up combat standpoint and a mechanic standpoint. They are not capable of pulling this off in PVE, as proven by the ever growing list of issues we experience with every patch that comes in.
They already know what the tests will show, it's no secret all of these tests will improve performance, because this isn't an issue of "how does xyz skill effect performance". In the server administration world "Lag in Cyro" is about throughput, contention and optimization.. none of which require this type of testing. Their admins know where the system is currently stressed, and excel is the only tool needed to identify the issues here. [snip]
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Edit for Conspiracy Theories.]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 8, 2020 5:54PM3 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭There was a lot more people playing in Cyrodiil and with much higher population cap earlier... spamming just as much of aoe and the game did run much better.
It did run bad at those times too but much much better than nowdays.
How about ZoS give us rundown on their server hardware improvements and tell us whether they have downgraded their server contracts?
They wohnt since will bet that 0 server improvements have been made and they have downgraded their server contracts to maximise profits.
Also had they actually fixed stuff earlier instead of just adding stuff top of broken core the game code might not be such a mess as it definately is.
Anyone expecting anything from these "aoe tests" need have strong reality check.
The funny thing is that even pve runs poor nowdays.
Remember to buy housing items and crown crates. I bet those are functioning smoothly
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Exactly my point AcadianPaladin. A lot of Nerfs happen to each other because one side or the other has complaints. Also, you get buffs in Cyrodiil for having more keeps than the other alliance, you don't get buffs like that in PvE, if you do, it doesn't last longer than an hour and is usually from doing quests or dungeons or something and is extremely rare, and they didn't really start adding buffs like that until recently to vet dungeons.
EDIT: LOL Miswar, if you think PvE is running poorly now, lets pray you never played early ESO if.. I fell through the floor nearly daily and landed on the roof of the Davon's watch mages guild at least once a day, dying on impact. Talk about "good" times. I spent so much gold on soul gems and teleporting to wayshrines from getting stuck.Edited by DarknessShallFall on September 8, 2020 5:36PMI have been a member of ESO since April 4th 2014 but didn't get a code until recently when I asked.
My @ name on ESO is the same as on here.1 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm sorry, but I don't think it would be possible to implement AOE changes into PVE without MONUMENTAL changes to the mobs. For instance, the amount of mobs, adds, and enemies you have to fight in places like Black Rose Prison might be IMPOSSIBLE to do without free access to AOEs. They would have to fundamentally change a lot of how the game works and the amount of mobs in every place to implement an AOE cooldown in PVE JUST to make them playable areas...
Considering this is just a test, I don't think they'd be willing to put in that much effort for something so temporary until they have more data as to what they're actually going to implement....5 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Rater, its lots of people and large group on group fights in Cyrodil. Only thing who kind of come close is some large trial fights I always get lag in the huge fight in MoL, however Cyrodil has to run on one server while you can always put trials on servers with spare capacity.dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »The reasoning is because Cyro is the place that causes all the issues. There are many more varying scenarios in PvP than in PvE. They need the test to give them the raw data for those specific encounters and that 'human" factor.
This is just a first phase of testing that then will be compiled to improve the game play for both PVE /PVP.
The AOE CD is just a phase of testing the actual implementaion could work differently.
My main issue with the test is that it don't differentiate between on ground AoE dots like endless hail and an one time AoE like steel tornado, even an skill like cave is an AoE DoT but it applies DoT on targets hit.
AoE dots should be far more costly to calculate than an one time as you has to add an ground based DoT object and do damage to all inside on each tick.
Now that about proc sets, lots have ground based effects, including sets you don't think on as so as olorime.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭EDIT: LOL Miswar, if you think PvE is running poorly now, lets pray you never played early ESO if.. I fell through the floor nearly daily and landed on the roof of the Davon's watch mages guild at least once a day, dying on impact. Talk about "good" times. I spent so much gold on soul gems and teleporting to wayshrines from getting stuck. [/quote]
I have played ESO 5 years. What you describing are bugs which like I said where neglected. They have ignored so much of these bugs are made rubber fixes to stuff that no wonder everything is a mess.
The overall runs bad nowdays and to say that that these aoe "test" improve things.. well just lol.
...but each of our own ofcourse just prepare to be disappointed.
I would like to have answers to those very simple questions than again silence kinds of tells it.
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EDIT: LOL Miswar, if you think PvE is running poorly now, lets pray you never played early ESO if.. I fell through the floor nearly daily and landed on the roof of the Davon's watch mages guild at least once a day, dying on impact. Talk about "good" times. I spent so much gold on soul gems and teleporting to wayshrines from getting stuck.
I have played ESO 5 years. What you describing are bugs which like I said where neglected. They have ignored so much of these bugs are made rubber fixes to stuff that no wonder everything is a mess.
The overall runs bad nowdays and to say that that these aoe "test" improve things.. well just lol.
...but each of our own ofcourse just prepare to be disappointed.
I would like to have answers to those very simple questions than again silence kinds of tells it.
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Well, what some people don't remember or realize Miswar, is that a lot of coders come and go, and everyone has a unique code, that they have to de-code and sometimes re-make in order to do some bug fixes, so some bugs don't get fixed, or the old codes will break with new codes added in, and they got to fix them. The game is so huge that it is hard to fix some bugs and it is easy for codes to break, and as the game gets bigger and bigger, and we got more players wanting more content over fixes, it will become harder and harder on the coders. Don't get more wrong, it takes them a long time to fix bugs, and sometimes they come back and break again, but thats sort of the natural order of any game, especially one that is constantly growing and gaining and loosing new developers and coders.
That's just my input though and the silence to some questions does make you wonder.
EDIT: Also I got into beta a week before game release but didn't realize it until too late. So I've been playing since April 4th 2014.Edited by DarknessShallFall on September 8, 2020 5:51PMI have been a member of ESO since April 4th 2014 but didn't get a code until recently when I asked.
My @ name on ESO is the same as on here.1 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
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Rater, its lots of people and large group on group fights in Cyrodil. Only thing who kind of come close is some large trial fights I always get lag in the huge fight in MoL, however Cyrodil has to run on one server while you can always put trials on servers with spare capacity.dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »The reasoning is because Cyro is the place that causes all the issues. There are many more varying scenarios in PvP than in PvE. They need the test to give them the raw data for those specific encounters and that 'human" factor.
This is just a first phase of testing that then will be compiled to improve the game play for both PVE /PVP.
The AOE CD is just a phase of testing the actual implementaion could work differently.
My main issue with the test is that it don't differentiate between on ground AoE dots like endless hail and an one time AoE like steel tornado, even an skill like cave is an AoE DoT but it applies DoT on targets hit.
AoE dots should be far more costly to calculate than an one time as you has to add an ground based DoT object and do damage to all inside on each tick.
Now that about proc sets, lots have ground based effects, including sets you don't think on as so as olorime.
I honestly think they should nerf proc sets and leave AOE skills alone completely. I know people get really attached to their proc sets, but I think if they had a choice between the two they would choose to maintain their AOE skills instead. It should have the same effect as improving lag in Cyrodiil...1 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭@DarknessShallFall You have been playing a bit longer than me.
Havent played much recently. I think 2/3 of us just basically quit on PS4 since even trials were lagging, mechanics not functioning etc etc. The pvp have been worse and worse even with less population and lower caps. They telling that people did not spam aoe is rubbish.... and yeah pvp worked a lot better (allthough its was &"&"). Nowdays pvp was just horrific.
As for coding. Yes, not easy and doubt they have many people even working on it. You may have noticed that focused housing kind of stuff and as they say stated just overland content in the future. Why? Because neither will cost much and overland is the cheapest thing to produce. Thats telling too... also their so called "performance" plan what stands out.. no hardware upgrades or such just "coding". Why? Again because it is cheaper.
Its all about maximing profts with barely functioning game... sad but true.
Anyways have a good day.3 -
TineaCruris✭✭✭✭✭There was a lot more people playing in Cyrodiil and with much higher population cap earlier... spamming just as much of aoe and the game did run much better.
How about ZoS give us rundown on their server hardware improvements and tell us whether they have downgraded their server contracts?
They wohnt since will bet that 0 server improvements have been made and they have downgraded their server contracts to maximise profits.
This is a taboo topic for some reason. This is the subject they simply refuse to address....and their silence is deafening.
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This is an client issue, or rather an setting issue. Setting in that ESO run with the same grapic settings overland and in trials / Cyrodil. It would obviously work better with lower graphic settings.@DarknessShallFall You have been playing a bit longer than me.
Havent played much recently. I think 2/3 of us just basically quit on PS4 since even trials were lagging, mechanics not functioning etc etc. The pvp have been worse and worse even with less population and lower caps. They telling that people did not spam aoe is rubbish.... and yeah pvp worked a lot better (allthough its was &"&"). Nowdays pvp was just horrific.
As for coding. Yes, not easy and doubt they have many people even working on it. You may have noticed that focused housing kind of stuff and as they say stated just overland content in the future. Why? Because neither will cost much and overland is the cheapest thing to produce. Thats telling too... also their so called "performance" plan what stands out.. no hardware upgrades or such just "coding". Why? Again because it is cheaper.
Its all about maximing profts with barely functioning game... sad but true.
Anyways have a good day.
Cyrodil is special as it has to run on one server, still I claim the issues is mostly client based.
Problem is probably larger on PC as lots configure their graphic settings to look as good as possible while still run smooth overland out of combat and then have their potato crash then porting to Brenda during midwinter festival.
We got lots of more styles since then, all has to go into memory.
And consoles would be perfect to test this as all has the same OS and hardware with exception of pro's and SSD.
Small changes as in shadow and particle effect quality would help a lot
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
Gorreck✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »They don't even know if this is the problem yet. They are testing. When you test, you control variables. PVE does not have the same crippling performance issues that PVP does. It is a logical place to start.
This isnt about some twisted concept of fairness in the great war that is PVP/PVE. It is about fixing a broken game.
PvP performance has just go worse and worse, the AOE has stayed about the same.
About the only thing that improved performance was when they accidently broke grouping in PvP for a while.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Back at launch most of the calculations was done on client, this made it very easy to cheat.There was a lot more people playing in Cyrodiil and with much higher population cap earlier... spamming just as much of aoe and the game did run much better.
It did run bad at those times too but much much better than nowdays.
How about ZoS give us rundown on their server hardware improvements and tell us whether they have downgraded their server contracts?
They wohnt since will bet that 0 server improvements have been made and they have downgraded their server contracts to maximise profits.
Also had they actually fixed stuff earlier instead of just adding stuff top of broken core the game code might not be such a mess as it definately is.
Anyone expecting anything from these "aoe tests" need have strong reality check.
The funny thing is that even pve runs poor nowdays.
Remember to buy housing items and crown crates. I bet those are functioning smoothly
So it was turned server side.
Note that it was serious lag back then too in huge fights. But ball groups was rare as skill levels was low also AoE was more expensive and less effective, people did not use AoE on single bosses for one.
Now I say they should run Cyrodil on stronger servers you can get some 100 core ones as an hint. 200 cores get expensive.
But as I understand they run on Amazon cloud so you can probably not bring your own servers.
And yes we probably got more anti cheat systems on servers and 5x number of motifs and styles you have to load into graphic memory, its mostly an client issue after all.
And this will not show anything, test is flawed on many levels.Edited by zaria on September 8, 2020 7:40PMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭I started pvp after the client side cheating was "fixed". Thus were not refering that long.
Yes, there was bad lag and other stuff but nearly in the scale the game has "produced" in recent times.
People were spamming aoe skills in much more populated fights and as said population cap was much higher.
You can get good modern servers from any company that provides the service. I'am confident they have downgraded those deals in past +2 years since everything has nose dived into rock bottom.
I play so little nowdays due to all these reasons. Why bother? We moved into pve side of things and like said it was horrific and it went down patch after patch until most of us just had enough. The guild usually had 60-90 people active people and now when rarely logging its down to around 10 to 20 at max. That is because game the simply does not function.
Lets be honest here.. this is their "performance plan" and it has gotten worse every single patch like as per usual.
As for these test... It will only kill intrest of the ones that are left.
If they really want look coding they should focus ie. how the guild rosters work. There is lag pikes when you remove people from the guild no matter where you are... why is that roster updating locations of players in realtime? It makes no sense. These type of things.
If they really convinced that aoe is the reason why do they keep introducing proc sets that are aoe based.
I could go much more but why bother... but one thing for sure it aint these aoe calculations that are killing the game.
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redgreensunset✭✭✭✭✭
✭TineaCruris wrote: »It seems only fair that everyone should endure the testing, not just those of us that mostly PvP.
Considering that this is only happening in Cyrodiil right now and therefore is instance specific, it's pretty obvious that outside of dueling, they wouldn't be able to make these changes pvp only. Like this would only be how things work in Cyrodiil, IC and BGs.
And as it is Cyrodiil that has the performance issues it might be a good thing to not kick pve players in the allegorical n*ts with this change as it's a pvp problem.1 -
EramTheLiar✭✭✭✭Last night I ran into an issue where one of the eyes on our electric stove was on, even when the temperature knob for the eye was off. Nothing we did on the stove managed to get the eye to turn off, and it was getting hotter and hotter. This was a problem, because I am opposed to burning down my house, and stoves that don't turn off when you tell them to tend to increase the chances of a house burning down.
So the first thing I did was go to my circuit breaker and cut the power to the electric stove. Like most houses, our circuit breaker had a dedicated circuit for the stove, so I was able to cut off the stove by killing power to it without interrupting any other part of the house, which as far as we can tell is functioning as designed.
After letting the stove cool down for a bit, the second thing we did was remove the eye -- that way even though, for some reason, current is being sent to it (and only it -- we've verified the other three eyes don't have this problem) it won't get hot by virtue of It Not Being There. This means we can still use the working parts of the stove until we replace either the broken bits or the entire thing (we're going with the entire thing, since the stove probably came with the house, which was built in the 70s).
At no point was the "use the circuit breaker to turn on and off the stove" considered the actual, final solution to our problem (though I admit I did joke about that). Also, at no point was the "remove the defective eye and keep going" considered the actual, final solution to our problem, though if we didn't have the money to either fix or replace the stove I suspect it might be in the running. They were stopgaps intended to isolate the problem from everything else, and they're inconvenient but better than breaking everything or leaving it and burning down the house.
If they ultimately decide based on these tests to screw up AOEs in PvP, you have a legitimate and meaty complaint, but this is is testing. And this is apparently something they can do without adding any permanent code changes, so it makes sense to start there.
And it doesn't make sense to test the part of the game where nobody is having the problem. I mean, I could have thrown the master circuit breaker and turned off the stove just as effectively. I suppose it might have made me feel better, if all I did in the house was use the stove, to know that while I'm not using the stove my daughter also isn't using the Internet and my wife isn't watching TV, but that seems a bit petty when I have the ability to be more selective in my targeting.4 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »They don't even know if this is the problem yet. They are testing. When you test, you control variables. PVE does not have the same crippling performance issues that PVP does. It is a logical place to start.
This isnt about some twisted concept of fairness in the great war that is PVP/PVE. It is about fixing a broken game.
Too bad the dependent variable isn't going to be that valid.
Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.0
