Is there a challenging solo experience anywhere in this game?

gnostici · April 2014

To perform well in PvP and group PvE content, one must know one's character. It's not a matter of only the text on the abilities, but knowing which abilities execute quickly and which hang, which tend to be buggy, what combos are best for various effects, etc. To a large extent, one can only know one's character by engaging in challenging solo content.

The fight with Molag Bal is the only thing I've seen so far that qualifies. That's it. At VR2, I went to Eastmarch expecting VR5 content to be challenging. I found level 36 dungeons and the mobs were so easy in the VR5 overworld that I actually learned how to single pull without getting agro from more than one in a cluster -- something many regard as impossible in this game. Really? I went looking for a challenge!

Most content is the same. You clear trash mobs working your way toward some boss, when a group steamrolls you from behind and breaths on the boss to kill it because they're overpowered for the content while working together. The decision I face most often in this game is whether I should just sit there doing nothing while waiting for something to respawn, knowing that there's a risk that another AoE group will just steamroll it again.

Some quests offer a challenge. I remember Sadal's Final Defeat involving a lot of fire, so as a vamp, I figured that maybe Sadal would challenge me. It's broken. Right before you'd face Sadal, the last ward can't be lowered. Great.

And so it goes. I have spent 9 days, 7 hours, 6 minutes, and 22 seconds on my character -- most of it searching for something challenging that can be done solo. Nothing. I can find nothing.

Has anybody out there found something that I haven't? It seems that even solo dungeons aren't, thanks to these AoE groups.

edit: As I put it to my guild earlier, this is how Skyrim would be if you just bought it and invited people over so you could watch them beat it for you.

bean19 · April 2014

Yeah. Though you might just call it bad design. The tower fight in the Nest of Crows against a group boss at level 6 is impossible at that level even with great gear, potions, and knowing your skill build. In fact, the whole Ebonheart Pact seems to have had its own junior design team working on it as there are a ton of areas that lack polish like that one.

As for disliking how every zone and almost every instance has a million other players bumping up against you, I agree. It's annoying.

It's also annoying that there isn't a trade chat channel and that there isn't an automatic filter to bump people who would spam zone chat with trade chat into the trade chat channel.

It's also super annoying that the dungeon group finder tool is so poorly designed and seems tailored specifically to allow griefing.

As for solo PvE content being a punishing challenge, that just seems to be a silly goal post to me. This is the most basic form of the game and while it may be only slightly challenging at times to MMO veterans who understand all of the game's systems and have built strong characters, it is probably very tough for MMO noobies. . . and where else are they expected to learn other than solo PvE content?

Plus, you can adjust your challenge. If you want to be challenged, go fight higher level quests and mobs. I have a friend who rushes to have a level gap of 5-6 levels between him and the content. He dies a lot, but that's how he likes to play.

If your goal is for other players to be good, then make some friends and teach them. They don't learn from harder content. They learn because at some point, someone told them the things we now take for granted. If you remember back to your first MMO or maybe even your second or third, you either learned from other players telling you things or from researching them online. Tough content didn't teach it to you.

gnostici · April 2014

@‌bean19

You make a great point about MMO noobs. Still, one would expect that intentionally moving into higher level areas that are supposed to be too difficult would yield content that is too difficult. Maybe I should have started doing that sooner, as it seems that there's little difference between VR1 and VR5 (at least where mobs are concerned).

I'll check out Crow's Nest again. Last time I was there, it had people circling spawns, AoE owning them. But camping a boss for a challenge kind of defeats the point too.

Maybe I should start a training guild in another faction for alts from my main guild, so we can meet up to do training battles with a little intentionally slower pace to allow more experimentation. It just seems a shame that helping people to learn their characters well may take such a cheap strategy, as it would barely be distinguishable from kill trading.

My goal is just to know my character, mostly so I can find groups for vet dungeons without having a bad experience.

I play a nightblade. I can heal when necessary, tank when necessary, and DPS when necessary. But so far, nobody seems to understand what a hybrid is. If I say I can heal, they expect templar quality. If I say I can tank, they expect a DK with fighter's guild maxed. If I say I can DPS, they expect an AoE sorc with mage's guild maxed.

The way I figure it, if I can find the outright most challenging content and practice all three to perfection then maybe I can then figure out how to explain myself to groups so I won't get kicked out for being a hybrid, by people who don't know what a hybrid is.

edit: I should add that teaching isn't possible in today's MMO climate. It seems that for most who aren't already guilded by pros, they think everybody but them is a noob. You can't tell or teach them anything.

Musou · April 2014

Make a gimped character, enjoy the harder fights?

Granted I'm only VR4 atm, but as a light armor wearing toon, almost all stats in magica I find solo quite challenging, but only from the pure dmg perspective. I have 1,5k HP and some mobs hit 700 on regular attacks, with specials in 1,1-1,4k department or more (I have been 1 shotted a few times). About the only thing enabling my survival is the perma CC...if not for that, no amount of heals would prevent my demise since they eat my resto shield (cast on low life) in 1 hit.

All in all, pack with 3 or more hard hitting mobs (it's kinda random, some mobs hit like [snip], didn't rly figure it out so far), 1 mistake is death. I guess it is kinda more fun than just facerolling them, but clunky weapon switching and bugs with some of my skills (character does animation, but no dmg output heh) prevents me from enjoying it.

Although, if I wanted a stronger solo PVE toon I'd not go sorc, but I need it for Cryo+I'm not that rich to respec every day. Played NB in beta with magic/stam and it was faceroll...could spam so many skills at the same time and everything would melt.

Anyway, how do you optimise gameplay? For the best players? Best specs? Best players with best specs

? What do you do with the rest of the player base then? Tell them to use the FOTM spec and group up or they can gtfo? Challenge in MMOs is almost never in solo PVE but in group content and PVP imo.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Pelerin2014 · April 2014

Sounds like you're just too pro for this game, lol.

gnostici · April 2014

@Musou‌

The best way to optimize is by recognizing that you don't have to. ESO has an enormous gameworld and can offer content for each and every of the groups you mentioned. The entire game doesn't need to be optimized to provide a challenging solo experience, but why can't there be one or two actual solo dungeons in the game?

ESO actually has solo dungeons, which are also open and always overrun by player groups. Why not lock those down to individual instances? It is done for the main quest, so the technical hurdles are already overcome. There's no reason that can't happen.

@Pelerin2014‌

Certain bosses in vet dungeons aside, ESO's PvE is laughably easy. I'm also too pro for Elmo's A-to-Z, so what's your point? Until Dark Talons is fixed, PvP is just about pointless outside of huge battles where Purge can be constantly spammed too, so every DK in the game is too pro for PvP. What's left?

edit: The first @ didn't work right on first post.

Pelerin2014 · April 2014

I don't know what to tell you, I'm not sure there's much that can be done if you find the PvE too easy - perhaps wait for the new Adventure Zone and see if that provides some challenge for you?

SuperScrubby · April 2014

They can start by not nerfing content to make it easier. They can also make sure that the actual MMO vet's are taken care of since those are usually the ones that stick through games. If the difficulty doesn't ramp up then it get's pretty boring.

While I understand some people's point of challenging yourself by doing content way above your level that's a bit silly that you would even have to resort to that. I like completing content and being forced to skip it just to get a challenge isn't what I'm looking for. I could also play this game with no armor and a lvl 5 weapon to get a "challenge" doesn't mean it's actually a good idea or would make the game anymore fun. A challenging game instills a feeling of achievement which this game currently lacks in all aspects.

LonePirate · April 2014

There are some problems with the claims in the original post. First off, if you are an AD member, Eastmarch is VR4, not VR5 and you should only see level 36 dungeons there if EP is your home faction. You won't see that level of content if you belong to AD or unless your game is bugged.

Also, if you find the game too easy, why don't you take some initiative to make it more difficult for yourself? Or don't play with a full set of armor or play with extremely inferior, lower level armor and weapons. Or stop using your class skills. Or stop using ranged weapons. Or tackle a group dungeon at level with only two players or even by yourself if you wish.

There is plenty of difficult content in this game. You simply choose not to make it difficult by playing it in the easiest way possible.

gnostici · April 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

There is plenty of difficult content in this game. You simply choose not to make it difficult by playing it in the easiest way possible.

Your arguments hold very well for single player Elder Scrolls games, where you can make the game what you want it to be. That doesn't work for MMOs where social play means that other people depend upon your playing well. Why should I have to gimp my character to get a decent challenge?

Difficult content is only actually difficult if while playing at your best, it is still challenging. By your reasoning, I could play tic-tac-toe using only my nostrils to hold the pencil and that qualifies as a well-designed challenge.

...

Actually... You may have a point there. But you're missing the point as well.

Also, yes, Eastmarch is VR4. Excuse me. And yes, seeing level 36 dungeons was a bug. I was there last night without that problem. I'll /bug it if I see it happen again.

Laura · April 2014

pretty much anything past vr4 is going to rock your socks

FoleyX90 · April 2014

Dark Souls 2 comes out this Friday.

LonePirate · April 2014

gnostici wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

There is plenty of difficult content in this game. You simply choose not to make it difficult by playing it in the easiest way possible.

Your arguments hold very well for single player Elder Scrolls games, where you can make the game what you want it to be. That doesn't work for MMOs where social play means that other people depend upon your playing well. Why should I have to gimp my character to get a decent challenge?

Did you read the thread title? The author is seeking a challenging SOLO experience. The social play and MMO aspects you reference are irrelevant in the context of the original question.

For this game to succeed, it needs to track its difficulty towards average players. If it caters the content exclusively to people who want nothing but hardcore, if not impossible challenges, then these players will quit paying the monthly fee if they can never progress. These average players are the vast majority of players by far. There is plenty of challenging content in this game for at least 95% or more of the player base. For the other 5% who claim everything in this game is too easy, the game offers you many choices for making it more challenging, even if you refuse to do so.

gnostici · April 2014

@LonePirate‌

I am the original author, so yes, I read the post and title. You write as if to suggest that those who engage in solo play *only* play solo and those who engage in social play *only* play that way. That's simply not true. In fact, learning to do one well can be helpful while doing the other.

I don't buy this average player jive that keeps getting repeated. It's too thoughtless; too easy an argument. That argument can be made regarding anything with equal validity because we don't know what the mean, median, or mode is for play preferences. This is further compounded by the fact that preferences change.

The truth is, the only way to cater to the average player with certainty is to cater to all playstyles as best as possible and then zero in first on what's missing and then what the players like best. That's exactly what ZOS has done.

@Laura‌

Awesome! I'm not charging through *all* VR4 stuff without having to at least pause and think about my attack first (unlike most past content), so maybe I'm starting to see that transition. If I'd held out just a *bit* longer then this thread might not exist (lol).