many players are unhappy with change to rapids then why are these changes making it through the pts

FinrodMacBeorn · August 2020

After the last two pts rounds, I wonder why we should participate at all in the AoE tests. It will be no fun, the loss of AP due to hampered AoE skills will outweigh the double-AP-event, and our feedback will likely be ignored ... Also, we can spend our limited game time in a better way by joining battlegrounds to get our rapids back.

As some people said: it's their game and their decisions. But if they want our help or at least our dedication to the game, then they should try harder to communicate with us and not fob us off with half-baked, easily refutable explanations (rapids/vigor, FG nerf, ...).

SydneyGrey · August 2020

thegreat_one wrote: »

Seriously if you can't find a zerg to ride with and make the AP to get Rapids. Well thats not Zos's fault.

Getting that far along the skill line takes an hour tops.

Get the 20% AP bonus from killing a Delve boss and join a zerg.
Repair Keep walls for AP as they upgrade over time and will need to be repaired.
Do kill players quests, YOU DONT HAVE TO GET THE KILL! your zerg's kill counts towards that,

Greyhost has zergs all the time regardless of your faction.

If that's true, then why not leave Vigor at Assault level 5? After all, it only "takes an hour, tops."

esotoon · August 2020

SydneyGrey wrote: »

If that's true, then why not leave Vigor at Assault level 5? After all, it only "takes an hour, tops."

Less than an hour tops, because you would have rapids, which would make riding anywhere 30% faster.

Noisivid · August 2020

redspecter23 wrote: »

Did you know there is a new mount coming to the store that allows for a passenger. That's really nice when someone doesn't have a fast mount themselves. You can also visit the store to buy skill lines and riding lessons.

Convenient timing.

It's quite clear that this change had very little to do with helping players and more to do with creating an inconvenience that you can bypass using the crown store. As much as they say that it was to help players get vigor, they could have done that without taking away rapids at the same time (if that indeed was their actual goal).

turn your speakers up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXE_n2q08Yw

(with the awesome Anthony Jackson on bass, written by Gamble, Huff and Jackson)

etchedpixels · August 2020

It took me less than four hours of silly battleground sessions to get from 3 (from the tutorial in cryodiil) to 5.

So you can do it that way (and it doesn't matter if you lose every single time). It's still a dire a change but there is a grind for it that's not as bad as cyrodiil and doesn't require a bunch of people. All I did was queue, start crafting on the alt, mid crafting get the BG is ready, do BG, requeue, go back to crafting so I wasn't wasting queue time.

Smile2342 · August 2020

Obsidian3 wrote: »

thegreat_one wrote: »

Seriously if you can't find a zerg to ride with and make the AP to get Rapids. Well thats not Zos's fault.

Getting that far along the skill line takes an hour tops.

Get the 20% AP bonus from killing a Delve boss and join a zerg.
Repair Keep walls for AP as they upgrade over time and will need to be repaired.
Do kill players quests, YOU DONT HAVE TO GET THE KILL! your zerg's kill counts towards that,

Greyhost has zergs all the time regardless of your faction.

I wish you PVPers would stop posting these lies...It takes more like 4 hours to go from 2 to 5. Maybe if you're lucky enough to get into a Blue Blob group that has their noses firmly up Fengrush's ass in prime time, you can shave it down to 2 1/2.

Stop lying to defend the change just because you crybabies are the whole reason this change happened.

Its a PvP Assault Skill. It's only in the game because of PvP and that is the reason it even exists.

Should have leveled during Midyear Mayhem and gotten all the bonuses.

"Bring glory to your Alliance, your guild, or yourself during the Midyear Mayhem PvP event and you’ll earn double Alliance Points, XP, and unique rewards."

Finedaible · August 2020

redspecter23 wrote: »

Did you know there is a new mount coming to the store that allows for a passenger. That's really nice when someone doesn't have a fast mount themselves. You can also visit the store to buy skill lines and riding lessons.

Convenient timing.

It's quite clear that this change had very little to do with helping players and more to do with creating an inconvenience that you can bypass using the crown store. As much as they say that it was to help players get vigor, they could have done that without taking away rapids at the same time (if that indeed was their actual goal).

^this. They created a problem simply so they could sell new players a solution under the guise that they were improving the new player experience when it was actually making it worse. They are just becoming a lot more brazen about it. This trend is not only limited to ESO, but it has been becoming more glaringly obvious in other Zo$ titles over this last year or so. This is why they made the vampire rework the way they did so that they could sell overpriced furniture crap and then pull the rug out from under them later, the classic bait-and-switch.

Nestor · August 2020

Smile2342 wrote: »

"Bring glory to your Alliance, your guild, or yourself during the Midyear Mayhem PvP event and you’ll earn double Alliance Points, XP, and unique rewards."

Yes, because Cyrodiil during an event with an increased population is such a good place to be.

WoodenHeart · August 2020

etchedpixels wrote: »

It took me less than four hours of silly battleground sessions to get from 3 (from the tutorial in cryodiil) to 5.

So you can do it that way (and it doesn't matter if you lose every single time). It's still a dire a change but there is a grind for it that's not as bad as cyrodiil and doesn't require a bunch of people. All I did was queue, start crafting on the alt, mid crafting get the BG is ready, do BG, requeue, go back to crafting so I wasn't wasting queue time.

So how much time am I supposed to spend on 60+ characters trying to get back a skill I've had on ALL of them for years?!?

I despise pvp and do not want to waste that enormous amount of time reacquiring the ONLY skill I consider mandatory on every one of my characters. As such, I've decided to move on to a new game where I'm not faced with having skills I depend on randomly removed for no apparent real reason. I play games to have fun, and having my favorite skill taken away is decidedly NOT fun.

ZaroktheImmortal · August 2020

WoodenHeart wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

It took me less than four hours of silly battleground sessions to get from 3 (from the tutorial in cryodiil) to 5.

So you can do it that way (and it doesn't matter if you lose every single time). It's still a dire a change but there is a grind for it that's not as bad as cyrodiil and doesn't require a bunch of people. All I did was queue, start crafting on the alt, mid crafting get the BG is ready, do BG, requeue, go back to crafting so I wasn't wasting queue time.

So how much time am I supposed to spend on 60+ characters trying to get back a skill I've had on ALL of them for years?!?

I despise pvp and do not want to waste that enormous amount of time reacquiring the ONLY skill I consider mandatory on every one of my characters. As such, I've decided to move on to a new game where I'm not faced with having skills I depend on randomly removed for no apparent real reason. I play games to have fun, and having my favorite skill taken away is decidedly NOT fun.

Even for pvpers this move is bad. Anyone new trying to get into pvp or anyone making a new toon will have to try to get around cyrodil really slowly.

PizzaCat82 · August 2020

Player input on the change itself was never being considered.

Only that the changed worked as intended.

what_the · August 2020

Guyle wrote: »

Cuz ZOS figured they can monetize the skill line more if they make rapids harder to get. Also, ppl are more likely to buy the mount upgrade tokens from the crown store if they want to avoid pvping or buying the entire skill line. Just another step in the long line of extortionist level tactics they've employed the last few years.

or...you could just play PvP for a cpl hrs and get the PvP skill for free....

SweepsAllClowns · August 2020

redspecter23 wrote: »

Did you know there is a new mount coming to the store that allows for a passenger. That's really nice when someone doesn't have a fast mount themselves. You can also visit the store to buy skill lines and riding lessons.

Convenient timing.

I'm completely confident this is totally accidental coincidence (sarcasm).

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

Just because people are happy with something doesn't mean it's a good move. Like light attack weaving and animation cancelling.
Because sometimes their reasons for being happy with something have ulterior motives.

If they made decisions based on what made people happy they'd just give everything in the game for free as your first time login reward.

zvavi · August 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Just because people are happy with something doesn't mean it's a good move. Like light attack weaving and animation cancelling.
Because sometimes their reasons for being happy with something have ulterior motives.

If they made decisions based on what made people happy they'd just give everything in the game for free as your first time login reward.

Ye but it doesn't make it a good decision either... Strongest argument against this is that cyrodil is huge, it would be perfectly logical for people to have speeding skill after completing the intro to jump right into action...

Noisivid · August 2020

ThePedge wrote: »

IT TAKES A COUPLE OF HOURS, JUST DO IT.

Do you know how long I had to farm Fang Lair for a Caluurions inferno staff? Do you know how long I had to farm vDSA for an Inferno Staff, Bow, and I still don't have Duel Weild.

99% of this game is PvE. Everyone who enjoys PvP has to spend more time doing stuff they don't enjoy, than you will have to for Rapids.

For the days you spend arguing on the forum you could have it on all of your characters by now.

ah, the old "i had to do a horrible grind on this stuff so you should have to do a horrible grind on that other stuff" argument. I'd just like to point out that both things can be bad. I personally think that pretty much everything in the game should be Bind on Equip and tradeable... that would mostly sort out the grind issue and then people could run the content they enjoy in the game because, well, they enjoy it... wild idea I know

also, and please don't take this personally, it's just that your post caused the thought to pop into my head.
to flip the "it's just a convenience, not a necessity" trope around I'll point out that having a specific weapon from a specific set is not an absolute necessity either. Players can make a more than viable build out of crafted sets and stuff we can buy from the guild stores. There are alot of easily available and viable options. A specific piece of gear is only "needed" if some absolutely has to eke out that last 1.5% of DPS on an absolute end-game build. It's not needed to play and complete any content in the game. Maybe for a Vet Hard Mode Speed run somewhere, but that's an optional choice that's up to the player,

players having to grind out content they despise just to get to the content they do is in my opinion just a poor game design given that there are so many aspects to the game.

also, as has been noted, there is alot more to the game than combat

Mappy2kx · August 2020

Gg

Gythral · August 2020

It is all about $$$
grab it off players getting a lost skill back
and show shareholders that PvP is worth the time & effort spent on its development, as the player numbers are up

Or am I being over-cynical ?

Noisivid · August 2020

Gythral wrote: »

It is all about $$$
grab it off players getting a lost skill back
and show shareholders that PvP is worth the time & effort spent on its development, as the player numbers are up

Or am I being over-cynical ?

nope, it's a for-profit corporation. Pretty much the only consideration at the upper levels of the org is "maximizing shareholder value." The devs who actually work on the game seem to care about making the game great but they have to work within the constraints they are given by corporate and only have access to the resources they are given.

TineaCruris · August 2020

It's an effort to promote crown store sales of mount training and Alliance war skill lines.

They are not likely to change it back for this reason.

TineaCruris · August 2020

Finedaible wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Did you know there is a new mount coming to the store that allows for a passenger. That's really nice when someone doesn't have a fast mount themselves. You can also visit the store to buy skill lines and riding lessons.

Convenient timing.

It's quite clear that this change had very little to do with helping players and more to do with creating an inconvenience that you can bypass using the crown store. As much as they say that it was to help players get vigor, they could have done that without taking away rapids at the same time (if that indeed was their actual goal).

^this. They created a problem simply so they could sell new players a solution under the guise that they were improving the new player experience when it was actually making it worse. They are just becoming a lot more brazen about it. This trend is not only limited to ESO, but it has been becoming more glaringly obvious in other Zo$ titles over this last year or so. This is why they made the vampire rework the way they did so that they could sell overpriced furniture crap and then pull the rug out from under them later, the classic bait-and-switch.

Yep. Too much and never enough.

kaisernick · August 2020

redspecter23 wrote: »

Did you know there is a new mount coming to the store that allows for a passenger. That's really nice when someone doesn't have a fast mount themselves. You can also visit the store to buy skill lines and riding lessons.

Convenient timing.

It's quite clear that this change had very little to do with helping players and more to do with creating an inconvenience that you can bypass using the crown store. As much as they say that it was to help players get vigor, they could have done that without taking away rapids at the same time (if that indeed was their actual goal).

This is exactly why it was done, even if they hadnt had the forsight to to move one to support or have both a lvl 1 skill it was braught up by god knows how many players myself included and they did NOTHING.

DarcyMardin · August 2020

Despite so many people thinking this is just a money grab by the folks who design the crown stores items, I tend to believe it was a genuine attempt to provide the stamina heal earlier to new characters (And I’ve seen a ton of new players ever since the pandemic started).

I’d also like to think that whoever made the decision didn’t realize how controversial it would be and how much pain it would cause. Thus, I continue to hope that maybe they will reconsider and revert the change, or, preferably, come up with an alternative, less drastic solution.

Tandor · August 2020

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

It's almost as if the people arguing that the changes are good are all reading from the same script 'oh it only takes this time. Oh you can earn so many points so quickly' yeah....try getting around cyrodil the main place for levelling it on a new toon with no rapids hell any toon without rapids even with rapids it's a lot to travel around.

You mean the people arguing that the changes are bad aren't all reading from the same script too?

Tandor · August 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Just because people are happy with something doesn't mean it's a good move. Like light attack weaving and animation cancelling.
Because sometimes their reasons for being happy with something have ulterior motives.

If they made decisions based on what made people happy they'd just give everything in the game for free as your first time login reward.

Absolutely, just as the fact that people are unhappy with something doesn't mean it's a bad move.

I'm just happy that the developers are writing the game, rather than a small minority of the playerbase whose only qualification is that they are vocal on the forum.

RemanCyrodiil_I · August 2020

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Nicole94 · August 2020

ThePedge wrote: »

IT TAKES A COUPLE OF HOURS, JUST DO IT.

Do you know how long I had to farm Fang Lair for a Caluurions inferno staff? Do you know how long I had to farm vDSA for an Inferno Staff, Bow, and I still don't have Duel Weild.

99% of this game is PvE. Everyone who enjoys PvP has to spend more time doing stuff they don't enjoy, than you will have to for Rapids.

For the days you spend arguing on the forum you could have it on all of your characters by now.

Again, if it was so easy, why did they move Vigor? It takes me about 30 seconds to respond to a comment in the forum, not sure how I can level the Alliance War tree in that amount of time. Thanks for your input though!

Nestor · August 2020

Tandor wrote: »

You mean the people arguing that the changes are bad aren't all reading from the same shared experinces too?

Fixed that for you.

Shared experiences that suck for everyone is not a script.

Nestor · August 2020

RemanCyrodiil_I wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I’d also like to think that whoever made the decision didn’t realize how controversial it would be and how much pain it would cause. Thus, I continue to hope that maybe they will reconsider and revert the change, or, preferably, come up with an alternative, less drastic solution.

Rich explained in today's streamed Q&A that the decision was made since Vigor is the only stam heal available to players. They believe that the benefits of making Vigor more easily available outweigh the negatives of swapping it with Rapids for this reason.

Do not remember any hue or cry about making Vigor easier to get.

OldManJim · August 2020

RemanCyrodiil_I wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I’d also like to think that whoever made the decision didn’t realize how controversial it would be and how much pain it would cause. Thus, I continue to hope that maybe they will reconsider and revert the change, or, preferably, come up with an alternative, less drastic solution.

Rich explained in today's streamed Q&A that the decision was made since Vigor is the only stam heal available to players. They believe that the benefits of making Vigor more easily available outweigh the negatives of swapping it with Rapids for this reason.

Do you have a link to this?