How much time do you designate to self buffs in pvp?

ToxicOutrage · August 2020

So I had a new build for pvp, and I realized the selfbuffing is taking so much time it might not be worth it having all these buffs in the first place.

Say I as a warden have 4 selfbuffs to use, Betty (25 sec) Frozen Armor (24 sec) Lotus (20 sec) Quick Cloack (14 seconds). Since it is 4 buffs, it takes 4 seconds to cast them, add to that 0.5 seconds for swapping back to main bar, which makes the downtime 4.5 seconds. Now the uptime where the buffs are active are now 13.5 seconds (shortest buff Cloack minus 0.5 sec barswap)

Uptime of 13.5 seconds + Downtime 4.5 seconds make the total rotation last 18 seconds. So now simple maths 4.5 divide by 18.5 equals 24.3% downtime or time use to simply self buffing in combat. I realize this is too much and I will probably tweak my build later in the future. After having played WW for months in PVP it is such a pain to dedicate almost a quater of your time to buffing

So now I am curious what % of your rotation time do you self buffs take

WoppaBoem · August 2020

Remove lotus replace it with vines or artic blast, still buff but more situational. What you are discovering is that there is no perfect build template for all. Trust your gut feeling and make the build that feels perfect for you and you will excel. Good luck.

pauld1_ESO · August 2020

Yea one thing I loathe about this game-play is having to reapply buffs every few seconds.

buzzclops · August 2020

Mighty chudan/camouflaged hunter/inner light/ new pvp potions gives both buffs. There are ways to open up ability slots

Firstmep · August 2020

Buff management is a vital part of pvp, even it takes a long time, you should always strive to keep your buffs up as much as possible.
Worst thing to happen is you get bursted just to realize that your armor buff is down, and now you have choose between healing or reapplying a buff you should've kept up anyway.
4-5 buffs is what I usually go for at most, any more and you'll spend too little time on offense.
Ofc your build will determine how many buffs you want/need.
On warden you defo don't wanna run spell/wpd pots or chudan for armor, both Betty netch and frozen armor have important secondary effects you can't easily get anywhere else.

buzzclops · August 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

On warden you defo don't wanna run spell/wpd pots or chudan for armor, both Betty netch and frozen armor have important secondary effects you can't easily get anywhere else.

Absolutely! I was just stating that the possibility is there if you need to dumb down buff rotation. You can get minor protection from temporal guard also.

raasdal · August 2020

It is alot about personal preference and playstyle.

I like to have 2 - 3 max selfbuffs (prefight) and 1 - 2 max opponent debuffs. More than that and i end up spending too much time and resources on keeping up my own buffs and i loose the burst windows because i need to debuff first.

My favorite builds are with 2 selfbuffs (such as hurrican + momentum) and no GCD required opponent debuffs. Always ready to go full offense that way.

But again - some builds just require more than others.

ToxicOutrage · August 2020

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

Yea one thing I loathe about this game-play is having to reapply buffs every few seconds.

My previous MMO was Lineage 2, where usually buffs would last 20 minutes, and the short buffs were for 2 minutes hehe

FriedEggSandwich · August 2020

My sorc did have 2 buffs; crit surge and boundless storm, but I replaced crit surge with degeneration (cause I don't crit), and now I just have boundless. So liberating

LeifErickson · August 2020

On my stamden I'm keeping up green lotus, ice fortress, and betty and in combat I'm casting vigor, arctic blast, and shimmering about every 4 seconds. If you are fighting outnumbered you spend 95% of the time with buffs and defensive skills on stamden.

EtTuBrutus · August 2020

Warden only needs 4 seconds to kill something with a good combo though. [snip] Especially considering 2 you can get rid of easily by using a potion.

[edited for baiting]

fred4 · August 2020

This is a really interesting question. Warden is often touted as having access to every buff under the sun and therefore some people have historically argued it's OP. Those people don't usually talk about opportunity cost in the same argument nor the basic problem of fitting buffs into a build with the limited-size skill bars we have. The even bigger problem for me personally is that I find warden (I play a magden) boring to play, due to being buff heavy.

The best builds to me are ones that use zero buffs. This is why I love my magblade and why I play her without Merciless and even without Shadow Image. I do not consider Shadowy Disguise and Race Against Time buffs - at least they don't feel that way to me - because they are simply part of movement. Siphoning Attacks is my only true buff, but it's something I don't need to track, because it's cheap. I constantly cast it in cloak. Everything else is situational. I do not pre-cast shields on that class, I use them reactively.

Situational skills, ones that depend on what your opponents are doing, are fun to me. Being ready to react to your surroundings from second to second, not being bogged down in a buff cycle, is fun. So is positional play, e.g. getting an edge by outmaneuvering enemies. Housekeeping, which includes buffs and resource management, is boring to me. It's about as much fun as being stuck at a traffic light. Burst combos are somewhere inbetween. I'd sooner watch my opponent's health and select my skills accordingly than rattle off a predetermined burst combo, but with the speed and healing in this game, I accept that burst combos are part of it. You wouldn't want to slow down combat.

Magblade is extreme in allowing you to play with practically no buffs. Templar is quite good as well. If you're not filling your bars with buffs you're looking for reactive skills in categories such as burst heals, CCs, cleanses, executes and gap closers, all of which I find fun. This leaves magden, in particular, quite screwed in the fun department for me. No execute (other than the malfunctioning bear), no gap closer and a blunt weapon that just fires a broadside every 3 seconds. I find the class serene, rather than exciting, which is fine if you're into that, I suppose.

In general I agree with raasdal. No more than 2 to 3 self-buffs and no more than 2 DOTs / enemy debuffs. I've somehow gotten used to my stam DK with 4 self-buffs (Rally, Cauterize, Volatile Armor, Shuffle) or 5, if you count Vigor. Stam DK compensates by having a fantastic, opportunistic ultimate in Take Flight. On warden - magden in particular - you're kind of screwed.

[EDIT] To clarify: Screwed in the sense of what I personally consider fun to play, not in regards to what is effective. Certainly stamden is an effective class and works around some shortcomings, such as lack of a class execute, by being stamina. Madgen is arguably weak, at least in the solo / small-scale / duelling / open world niche I'm familiar with, precisely because it lacks situational skills, such as a reliable execute and CC.

coletas · August 2020

ToxicOutrage wrote: »

So I had a new build for pvp, and I realized the selfbuffing is taking so much time it might not be worth it having all these buffs in the first place.

Say I as a warden have 4 selfbuffs to use, Betty (25 sec) Frozen Armor (24 sec) Lotus (20 sec) Quick Cloack (14 seconds). Since it is 4 buffs, it takes 4 seconds to cast them, add to that 0.5 seconds for swapping back to main bar, which makes the downtime 4.5 seconds. Now the uptime where the buffs are active are now 13.5 seconds (shortest buff Cloack minus 0.5 sec barswap)

Uptime of 13.5 seconds + Downtime 4.5 seconds make the total rotation last 18 seconds. So now simple maths 4.5 divide by 18.5 equals 24.3% downtime or time use to simply self buffing in combat. I realize this is too much and I will probably tweak my build later in the future. After having played WW for months in PVP it is such a pain to dedicate almost a quater of your time to buffing

So now I am curious what % of your rotation time do you self buffs take

is not only time... in your case is resources too. I dont really do any rotation since even when playing 1vs1, i dont like with lag and i dont like to be very predictable. And in 1vsX... rotation? (kill the snippers and go for the more damage dealer lol)

on stamden i only use fortress and Betty. quick cloak is expensive and i dont really need It (i play with pariah 2h+infused wd jewelry)... i prefer to use those nearly 4k stam when needed. Lotus, for me, is a waste too. I like to play under 50% health and when needed about 30% spores+vigor (with that Major mending) i use camo Hunter instead for free 3% damage and major savagery.

but returning to your view... yes... i dont like the idea of buffing and buffing for something that may never land with this laggy PvP lol so I try to just Buff Betty always with a bar swap... and fortress...i like the animation lol One preemptive debuff i sometimes use is corrupting polen, but dont usually slot It unless playing much against templars or necros that night lol

on magplar, the same... just rune and if needed living dark or extended ritual, but never use it preemptive.

so answering... basically 2+ seconds every 24 seconds

taugrim · August 2020

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Remove lotus replace it with vines or artic blast, still buff but more situational. What you are discovering is that there is no perfect build template for all. Trust your gut feeling and make the build that feels perfect for you and you will excel. Good luck.

I've been trying to find a good 2nd heal on Stamden to pair with Resolving Vigor so that I can proc the Major Mending passive in GB, but so far the answer is there is none.

In GB, the only options I see are Soothing Spores and Vines.

Soothing Spores has high cost, low heal.

The lifesteal of Leeching Vines is halved in PVP. Bummer.

Arctic Blast scales with Health and is a sizable burst heal and sizable HoT. It doesn't proc Mending, but it's so worth a GCD to use.

Mobius0 · August 2020

Probably my biggest complaint about eso combat is the horrific buff durations. Even in PvE, let alone PvP, I find keeping buffs up to absolutely wreck my enjoyment and turns it into pure tedium for me.

Like fred4, I have been trying to tweak my build to have as few actively applied buffs/debuffs as possible.

I have played games where I actively use 40+ abilities and managed just fine, but in ESO the buffs just don't gel with my style. Unfortunately some of them are just so dang good...

Alienoutlaw · August 2020

general rule of thumb
Buff before Combat
Buff During Combat
Buff whilst standing around
Buff while moving around

combat can come at anytime