ealdwin wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Is this was to become a thing diversity would die in 2 seconds if not less.... I see healers bring brought up a lot in this thread and I can ready see the same healing builfs being used over and over....there are only 4 skill lines that will truly be used and out of those 4 it is easy to see what the meta 3 will be..... It will be deadric summoning for the twilight(free passive damage as a healer plus burst heal) restoring light wich is an obvious choice(purge burst heals heal over times etc) and then it is either living death or green balance and out of thise 2 I think Green balance will reign supreme for having better passives and insane ult and just all around good hots and buffs etc.... Granted living death might be chosen sometimes for the res ult on a healer but if a group is going for no death green balance would be better..... That is how you kill class divesity.....

Daedric Summoning + Restoring Light + Green Balance = PVE Healer meta
Daedric Summoning + Restoring Light + Living Death = PVP Healer meta
fun

Actually I wouldn't take that "meta" build. In my opinion that would be worse than a regular necro healer.
I'd probably choose Siphoning, Bone Tyrant and Grave Lord for my pve healing.

Also I don't think that stacking a lot of healing skills would be an issue. In my experience, most healing isn't done with class skills anyway. When I lok at the logs when healing vet trial hms, my top healing skill is illustrious healing and my top 5 healing skills usually only include one class skill.
However being able to stack things like sustain management, ulti generation as well as passives to increase damage done or reduce damage taken will be a much bigger issue.

In general I guess it would be fun for theory crafting at first, but it would noticably increase the gap between new players and experienced ones. Additionally it would become much harder for zos to balance things as they would have to keep every possible class combination in mind, when adjusting class skills.

So we can drop necros from raid groups and run 8 nightblades with 3 running necro ults? A healer and tank could cover all the sorc, Templar and warden group buffs. The other dds pick whatever racial skill line gives the strongest passives.

Maybe that wouldn’t be the meta, but it’s the kind of thing that would happen if we could combine skill lines from different classes. You’d pick the strongest two class skill lines for damage skills and passives. Support builds would combine class skill lines to cover all group buffs. We’d have many combinations available but a few would be much stronger than others. At the least, it would need a lot of work from the devs to balance.

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

Prove it?

Sure, I'll add my explanation to that of everyone else pointing out how this would go down. The meta is the most efficient tactic available. At the end game, this meta is driven by math and your group's requirements, not roleplay or personal playstyle. There's no reason not to cherrypick the best skill lines for your role.

We already tend to see this at the end game with picking the best classes for each role. Remember Elsweyr patch when teams were running eight necromancers? Players will absolutely run the same builds if that's most effective.

Also, ZOS enforces diversity through distinct classes. The best example is probably the Warden. They were pretty well designed to slide into the tank and healer role previously dominated by Dragonknights and Templars, but ZOS knew full well they'd be ignored if they weren't effective. So ZOS gave Warden some unique buffs to reward groups who used them...and nerfed Templars hard so that Wardens could compete.

That all means that once players get to cherry pick three class skill lines for their role, for end game content they'll pick the most effective skills for their roles. Quickly, they'll end up picking the same three skill lines that are most effective.


So healers: currently, Templars and Wardens have slightly different healing styles and buffs, specifically so they each have their niche, right? Once I can pick skill lines, I'm going to pick the best of both. No more niche, no more diversity.

Tanks: probably the best of Dragonknights, Wardens, and then, again, the third pick is whatever is most effective. Maybe we'll see tanks pick up the job of providing necro class buffs or templar/warden class heals on top on their job.

Damage Dealers: this would be a little more diverse, maybe? We'd probably end up with a "best stam," and a "best mag" build, with a little variation to cover buffs the group needed. Or we'd wind up with souped-up versions of the classes we already have as they cover their weaknesses with other class skill lines. If that happened, you can bet we see ZOS come in with the nerfs to deal with power creep.

Which brings up the problem of Balance. How do you balance a skill when you have to consider how it's used in conjunction with every other class skill in the game? That's be a nightmare.

And I won't touch on PVP beyond noting that fights would be very difficult when you can't tell what skills your opponent has access to.



This is not a particularly new idea on the forums. It would probably create more diversity amongst players who want to roleplay or who don't care about fulfilling their role in the most effective way. But for end game content, it would absolutely destroy build diversity as players formed a new meta. Finally, it's very difficult for ZOS to balance, and thus even more unlikely to happen.

The reason class creativity works in single-player games like Skyrim is because you aren't competing and there is no meta. So there is no reason to perform better or worse either than if you want to.

Make it a MMO, and now people are trying to find the best abilities and combo's, the best classes for each role.

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

Prove it?

Sure, I'll add my explanation to that of everyone else pointing out how this would go down. The meta is the most efficient tactic available. At the end game, this meta is driven by math and your group's requirements, not roleplay or personal playstyle. There's no reason not to cherrypick the best skill lines for your role.

We already tend to see this at the end game with picking the best classes for each role. Remember Elsweyr patch when teams were running eight necromancers? Players will absolutely run the same builds if that's most effective.

Also, ZOS enforces diversity through distinct classes. The best example is probably the Warden. They were pretty well designed to slide into the tank and healer role previously dominated by Dragonknights and Templars, but ZOS knew full well they'd be ignored if they weren't effective. So ZOS gave Warden some unique buffs to reward groups who used them...and nerfed Templars hard so that Wardens could compete.

That all means that once players get to cherry pick three class skill lines for their role, for end game content they'll pick the most effective skills for their roles. Quickly, they'll end up picking the same three skill lines that are most effective.


So healers: currently, Templars and Wardens have slightly different healing styles and buffs, specifically so they each have their niche, right? Once I can pick skill lines, I'm going to pick the best of both. No more niche, no more diversity.

Tanks: probably the best of Dragonknights, Wardens, and then, again, the third pick is whatever is most effective. Maybe we'll see tanks pick up the job of providing necro class buffs or templar/warden class heals on top on their job.

Damage Dealers: this would be a little more diverse, maybe? We'd probably end up with a "best stam," and a "best mag" build, with a little variation to cover buffs the group needed. Or we'd wind up with souped-up versions of the classes we already have as they cover their weaknesses with other class skill lines. If that happened, you can bet we see ZOS come in with the nerfs to deal with power creep.

Which brings up the problem of Balance. How do you balance a skill when you have to consider how it's used in conjunction with every other class skill in the game? That's be a nightmare.

And I won't touch on PVP beyond noting that fights would be very difficult when you can't tell what skills your opponent has access to.



This is not a particularly new idea on the forums. It would probably create more diversity amongst players who want to roleplay or who don't care about fulfilling their role in the most effective way. But for end game content, it would absolutely destroy build diversity as players formed a new meta. Finally, it's very difficult for ZOS to balance, and thus even more unlikely to happen.

And you only touch on skills and class.

On top of that, the meta includes race and gear.

How many gear sets are in this game? How many gear sets are considered meta? The answer is only a few compared to the ones available.

If there were any "proof" that the OPs suggestion was a bad idea, the gear meta is it. Other than that "proving" something that we literally cannot test is not possible. It's a ridiculous challenge to pose because there is no way to test it. But, we have perfect in game occurrences right now that prove that players will chose the best options to get the most DPS.

So yes, this would do nothing for build diversity. And that i only PVE.

I agree, PVP would be an absolute nightmare. Cloaking Sorcs would be invincible.

Yeah, you're right that the gear meta is excellent proof that you can give players tons of options and only a few will ever see use in the endgame.

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

I came from an MMO that actually allowed any skills any "class" and the results at end game were

1 tank build
1 cc build
1 dps build
1 healer build

with everything else being shunned due to not being as effective

despite there being 15 ways to tank, 7 ways to cc, 35 ways to dps and 11 ways to make a healer...

while the idea on paper is nice, it opens the flood gates to allow players to do what players alwasy do..even if they themselves are unaware of it.

to optimize gameplay to the point where it's not even fun

An argument stating it will destroy diversity, is an argument there is imbalance in the skill lines.

I would much rather ESO held a more of a traditional Elder Scrolls approach, where your class was defined by your skill lines than the other way round.

For example, Maybe take 2NB skill lines and one DK, your class is now a ‘bloodknight’