ESO needs far and away better tutorials (example, lots of player dont used food / drink)

Wing · August 2020

thats true btw, ZOS has internal data that shows alot of people dont even run food or drink buffs, seriously.

i was scoffing at another game for having super basic tutorials (on tanking, healing, etc.) to the effect of "make sure you grab agro of things attacking your group" etc.

until one of my friends was talking praises about the tutorial and explaining about how it was teaching them to be a good dps and what to do

. . .

to the point that it made them better in eso (i was shocked, i figured everyone knew everything at that point)

and i have known from trying to help people in this game that people running say a stamina build, will still use magicka skills (and im talking dps skills here) because they just dont seem to know better.

the fact that ESO has a wonky skill / morph system were things can be magicka, stamina, health based, and swap what they do or what build needs them on a morph does not help the issue. nor does the "anyone can do anything" class system design philosophy.

(i personally feel this is why we have been getting such good hybrid sets recently, as they will indirectly help mitigate this issue)

while i and many others enjoy the open ended build design possibilities (i personally came from DDO back in the day and loved creating builds) i do think ESO needs a more robust and optional tutorial system to help explain: dungeon roles, skills, morphs, food, potions, sets, etc.

explaining basic healer skills, putting them in a tutorial that required them to heal NPC's, giving examples of the kinds of gear they should look for, giving them some food and requiring them to use it, etc.

these kinds of things for all rolls would go a long way.

all we have right now is Alcast telling you what to wear and what skills to use at end game. and i promise that enlightening your players from the get go to the fundamentals of ESO rather then just handing them a build at end game will go much further.

Strider__Roshin · August 2020

They're not hiding anything from you. There's descriptions on the food and drinks. If players aren't using it then that's on them.

Shadowspawn42 · August 2020

As a new player, I completely agree. This is also my first MMO in general, and I’m pretty much in a constant state of confusion. Some tutorials would be greatly appreciated. They could make them optional for people who prefer to figure stuff out on their own.

the1andonlyskwex · August 2020

I'm not confident tutorials are the problem when it comes to food and drink. I was aware of them for a long time, but never actually used them until I got yelled at when I started doing vet dungeons. My perspective was always, "why waste money on a consumable I don't need?".

I'm not one of the people who goes around asking for harder overland content, but I do think the relative ease of most non-endgame content results in a lot of people never really learning how to play the game well.

eKsDee · August 2020

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

They're not hiding anything from you. There's descriptions on the food and drinks. If players aren't using it then that's on them.

In order to be able to read the descriptions on foods and drinks, you need to know of them in the first place, which is the problem. Players are only ever exposed to super basic "increase health by 1-2k" or "increase magicka/stamina recovery by 100" foods, they aren't exposed to better foods and drinks. Having a tutorial that guides players towards progressing their available foods and drinks would help by exposing players to better foods and drinks.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm not confident tutorials are the problem when it comes to food and drink. I was aware of them for a long time, but never actually used them until I got yelled at when I started doing vet dungeons. My perspective was always, "why waste money on a consumable I don't need?".

I'm not one of the people who goes around asking for harder overland content, but I do think the relative ease of most non-endgame content results in a lot of people never really learning how to play the game well.

Not being aware of their power is a problem that a tutorial would address, for the reason I outlined above.

the1andonlyskwex · August 2020

eKsDee wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

They're not hiding anything from you. There's descriptions on the food and drinks. If players aren't using it then that's on them.

In order to be able to read the descriptions on foods and drinks, you need to know of them in the first place, which is the problem. Players are only ever exposed to super basic "increase health by 1-2k" or "increase magicka/stamina recovery by 100" foods, they aren't exposed to better foods and drinks. Having a tutorial that guides players towards progressing their available foods and drinks would help by exposing players to better foods and drinks.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm not confident tutorials are the problem when it comes to food and drink. I was aware of them for a long time, but never actually used them until I got yelled at when I started doing vet dungeons. My perspective was always, "why waste money on a consumable I don't need?".

I'm not one of the people who goes around asking for harder overland content, but I do think the relative ease of most non-endgame content results in a lot of people never really learning how to play the game well.

Not being aware of their power is a problem that a tutorial would address, for the reason I outlined above.

The problem wasn't that I was unaware of their power. The problem was that I had never encountered content where that power mattered.

newtinmpls · August 2020

So how many folks, on seeing (for example) someone with 13k dying a lot in a non-vet undaunted, would chat or game-mail them encouraging food?

trackdemon5512 · August 2020

@Wing

- ZOS should have the player select a food given to them by an NPC and consume it during the introduction tutorial quest next chapter. Easy fix for that.

- ZOS should create a solo instance dungeon with 4 NPCs. The player rotates into one of those 4 roles based up on their selection in the group finder. The very easy dungeon has a 5th companion NPC which shouts what to do constantly (like Divayth Fyr yelling at you in HOF). Dungeon tutorial done.

SeaGtGruff · August 2020

Actually, I think there's a pretty good description of how food and drink works in one of those books that are always found by crafting stations-- I'm guessing the basic provisioning guide, but I'm not on right now to check. I almost never read those, just click and close, but while my newest PC NA character was making his way through Bleakrock Isle I decided to read every word of every book, and most of them are actually very helpful or very entertaining.

Athan1 · August 2020

My experience with ESO: I complete the tutorial, arrive to Vvanderfell and get killed by the guards within 5sec for accidentally attacking a civilian. I realise that something is wrong with this game so I start googling things. I learnt everything about the game through google, youtube, the forums, and the wikis. The game didn't teach me anything about itself.

jircris11 · August 2020

Issue I have noticed is the fact new players rush. No reading, no exploring rush through it all.

Daemons_Bane · August 2020

I think ESO caters to a more adult crowd.. And as such, I would think that people could figure out most stuff themselves.. And there are books lying around the craft stations to guide you.. If you won't read them, it's on you

Syldras · August 2020

There are books at the crafting stations, there's is a quest to become a certified provisioner (which you need for the crafting daily), every meal and drink has its effects written in its description, and if you use a cooking station, you also have effect descriptions for each type of meal. I'm wondering how people can miss all this? It's not that ESO is a game for children who need to be taken by their hand all the time.

goldCoaster · August 2020

People would then complain about the tutorials.

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

Athan1 wrote: »

My experience with ESO: I complete the tutorial, arrive to Vvanderfell and get killed by the guards within 5sec for accidentally attacking a civilian. I realise that something is wrong with this game

You committed a serious, violent, crime, and guards attacked you. How is that wrong?

*

As for food, and buffs -- people need to Learn To Read.

Every time an event comes along, you get tons of clueless people asking in chat what's going on, how to get tickets, blah blah blah when the information has been posted days ahead and is also in-game.
Stop skipping window popups and tooltips.

Wing · August 2020

Athan1 wrote: »

My experience with ESO: I complete the tutorial, arrive to Vvanderfell and get killed by the guards within 5sec for accidentally attacking a civilian. I realise that something is wrong with this game so I start googling things. I learnt everything about the game through google, youtube, the forums, and the wikis. The game didn't teach me anything about itself.

honestly that sounds like me trying TES morrowind back in the day, so its consistent i guess.

Danikat · August 2020

This data ZOS has on people not using food or drink buffs - is this in areas where they're actually necessary like veteran dungeons or PvP, or across the entire game?

I often don't use food or drink, or use fairly useless low level ones I must have looted at some point because it feels like a waste to throw them away. It's not because I don't know how the buffs work or how to get better ones, it's because I spend the majority of my time in open-world PvE doing quests and there's just no need to use decent food or drinks there. I'm already running without CP and using crafted gear I know isn't the best I could get because otherwise things are too easy which makes it boring, I'm not going to waste ingredients making useful food for a buff I don't need.

The game already makes it virtually impossible to avoid picking up a wide variety of food and drinks. Even though I have a max level crafter I rarely make stuff for myself and still end up with loads of consumables in my inventory from enemies, chests, login rewards and other places. You can't miss it and the descriptions are fairly self-explainatory. If players aren't using it I find it hard to believe a one-off tutorial segment is going to change that.

Klueless · August 2020

Also doesn't help that as a newish player, the descriptions on even the highest level foods look "meh" at best compared to your total stats. 4xx stat and stat recovery, compared to overall what you have already just doesn't look like it matters much at all. I know (now) that it's all stacking and all the bits add up and whatnot, but when just looking at it trying to decide if it's worth keeping or selling.. it sure doesn't look worth much.

Also, as added several posts above.. the general world and even normal dungeons (that are all you get into as a newish and/or casual player) dont even require following mechanics, much less require optimizing food buffs and such... so you just get used to never needing or thinking about them. They become vendor fodder for gold.

Cadbury · August 2020

If anything, I feel ZOS throws new players too much in the beginning with bloated info and text dump.

The only "tutorials" possibly needed is a better introduction to Undaunted, basic dungeon roles/mechanics, and maybe a bit about light weaving.

Wing · August 2020

Klueless wrote: »

Also doesn't help that as a newish player, the descriptions on even the highest level foods look "meh" at best compared to your total stats. 4xx stat and stat recovery, compared to overall what you have already just doesn't look like it matters much at all. I know (now) that it's all stacking and all the bits add up and whatnot, but when just looking at it trying to decide if it's worth keeping or selling.. it sure doesn't look worth much.

Also, as added several posts above.. the general world and even normal dungeons (that are all you get into as a newish and/or casual player) dont even require following mechanics, much less require optimizing food buffs and such... so you just get used to never needing or thinking about them. They become vendor fodder for gold.

you bring up a good point about the inflated base stats low level characters get, makes stat bonuses on gear and items look not very good when you have inflated base stats.

idk · August 2020

Athan1 wrote: »

My experience with ESO: I complete the tutorial, arrive to Vvanderfell and get killed by the guards within 5sec for accidentally attacking a civilian. I realise that something is wrong with this game so I start googling things. I learnt everything about the game through google, youtube, the forums, and the wikis. The game didn't teach me anything about itself.

The internet and guilds is the way I have learned how to play in every MMORPG I have played. While I would like to see some basic tutorials for performing specific actions like healing and tanking in the style of FF14 I have seen enough to know that with the most basic actions one can lead a horse to water but cannot make them remember to drink the water regularly.

Case in point, I have seen a high-level CP stam melee player actually say they did not have an interrupt. They had a tutorial that I have not seen in six years yet I remember it thought us to block yet others do not remember it a mere few months afterward.

lozq · August 2020

I agree in general with all this, more deliberate tutorials would be beneficial.

I didn't use food and drink buffs when I started because they seemed too rare and expensive to use all the time. For some reason I got it into my head that bread was the ultimate buff food - I'd steal it whenever I could and ration it out to use before delve bosses and other 'hard' battles.

Also I don't think I really understood WHY buffing my stamina/magicka would be that important. When you're not doing a proper rotation it's quite rare to run out of resources, so I never felt like it was an issue.

Maybe integrate into the tutorial some stuff about food, set boni and mundus stones.

'What a bit of luck, they've left all this food behind at their camp!'
POPUP: Use food and drinks before entering combat to increase your stats and survivability.

'Here, I found this armour for you - it looks like it's part of a set, look in those chests and see if you can find the other pieces!
POPUP: Some armour and weapons are part of a set - wearing multiple pieces of the same set will grant you powerful boni, with an extra powerful bonus for wearing the entire set.

That kind of thing. Although tbh anyone who plays long enough will and up figuring it all out, either by trial and error or by the power of Google.

Kalik_Gold · August 2020

Guess I’m the only one that noticed good food on the Battleground merchant. That was my go to food/potions until I maxed a crafter now I create different food/drinks and potion combinations for my crew.

RebornV3x · August 2020

This game really hides a lot from the player without youtube 99 percent of players wouldn't know what to do sadly.

Syldras · August 2020

RebornV3x wrote: »

This game really hides a lot from the player without youtube 99 percent of players wouldn't know what to do sadly.

Having to look, read and think of your own to figure some things out isn't "hiding".

Sarannah · August 2020

Foods and drinks are just something players need to figure out themselves. And the current tutorials have some issues, but they should not add healing/tanking/DPS tutorials to it. For those new to the game, the tutorial can already be too overwhelming.

ZOS should make three new separate tutorials available at level 10, in which we can practice tanking, healing and DPS on NPC's.

Wing · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

This game really hides a lot from the player without youtube 99 percent of players wouldn't know what to do sadly.

Having to look, read and think of your own to figure some things out isn't "hiding".

where is animation canceling and weaving mechanics explained in game?

Syldras · August 2020

Wing wrote: »

where is animation canceling and weaving mechanics explained in game?

I said "think of your own". I had never read about it before realizing myself after few hours of playing that animations can be canceled and still have an effect. Of course you can read about it online, but you also can find out yourself. Playing, testing, trial and error. The way it was before you could just look up everything on the internet. I started with gaming in the 90's, so I might have a different perspective on this. Yep, those wacky times where you had to find things out yourself instead of watching youtube for tutorials of everything and googling pre-made builds.

Also: Why would they put it in a tutorial if it was never an intended feature?

Chelo · August 2020

Wing wrote: »

thats true btw, ZOS has internal data that shows alot of people dont even run food or drink buffs, seriously.

i was scoffing at another game for having super basic tutorials (on tanking, healing, etc.) to the effect of "make sure you grab agro of things attacking your group" etc.

until one of my friends was talking praises about the tutorial and explaining about how it was teaching them to be a good dps and what to do

. . .

to the point that it made them better in eso (i was shocked, i figured everyone knew everything at that point)

and i have known from trying to help people in this game that people running say a stamina build, will still use magicka skills (and im talking dps skills here) because they just dont seem to know better.

the fact that ESO has a wonky skill / morph system were things can be magicka, stamina, health based, and swap what they do or what build needs them on a morph does not help the issue. nor does the "anyone can do anything" class system design philosophy.

(i personally feel this is why we have been getting such good hybrid sets recently, as they will indirectly help mitigate this issue)

while i and many others enjoy the open ended build design possibilities (i personally came from DDO back in the day and loved creating builds) i do think ESO needs a more robust and optional tutorial system to help explain: dungeon roles, skills, morphs, food, potions, sets, etc.

explaining basic healer skills, putting them in a tutorial that required them to heal NPC's, giving examples of the kinds of gear they should look for, giving them some food and requiring them to use it, etc.

these kinds of things for all rolls would go a long way.

all we have right now is Alcast telling you what to wear and what skills to use at end game. and i promise that enlightening your players from the get go to the fundamentals of ESO rather then just handing them a build at end game will go much further.

If you ever play any other MMO before this one, you will understand this, the moment you log in...

If this is your first MMO, well you will have to learn all the fundamentals of the genre from zero, but it will be the same with any other genre.

For example, if you NEVER play a shooter before in your life, you will have a hard time the first couple of hours/days/months. But if you are a veteran shooter player, you can log to any shooter out there, and you will know exactly what to do.

The thing here is that most of the player base came from Skyrim, a single player RPG. Devs can't teach you what is an MMO, you have to learn by yourself...

Concepts like Agro, Healing, DPS, buffs, debuffs, etc, are the same in any other MMO, they are basic to the genre.

Chelo · August 2020

RebornV3x wrote: »

This game really hides a lot from the player without youtube 99 percent of players wouldn't know what to do sadly.

You can figure it out, the same way YouTubers did...

There was a time in a gaming history when we actually have to figure out things by ourselves, without guides, tutorials and YouTube didn't even exist...

RebornV3x · August 2020

Syldras wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

This game really hides a lot from the player without youtube 99 percent of players wouldn't know what to do sadly.

Having to look, read and think of your own to figure some things out isn't "hiding".

Having played other MMOs and growing up in the 90s myself I was able to figure things out pretty quickly other than a few things I had no problems. Another thing the base game UI is just abysmal without add-ons or Youtube most players here would struggle just to beat Vet Fungal Grotto 1 much less beat other Vet dungeons.

Even with Youtube and build guides you know just how many players I run into that don't know how to heal or tank? How many 810s that don't even know they have a 2nd bar? It's so bad and happens so often I can't tell if people are legit trolling me like it's some new Tiktok fad just to get a reaction out of vet players or if there that damn clueless. It almost drives me crazy.

We need more in depth tutorials on how to tank and heal etc. would go along way. Having ZOS add some of the most popular add-ons as a main feature to the base game if only as an excuse to help console players out too would help tremendously.