Let anyone have any Class Skill Line.

Snockooz · August 2020

Considering any class can be a Tank, DPS, or Healer. Why no let anyone have access to any Class skill Line?

So, obviously letting everyone have access to every skill line at all times would be overpowered so here's my Idea.

The Character creation is the same. You pick your Race and you pick your class just like you already do. However, once you are in the game you can Change your 3 Class Skill Lines.

You shouldn't just be able to change them in your character menu. So, how I would do it is. Each Skill Line can be acquired at different guilds. DragonKnight and Warden at Fighters Guild. Templar and Sorcerer at Mages Guild. Night Blade and Necromancer at Dark Brotherhood. You could also spread them out by making it so you can only get one the 3 skill lines from each class at different Guilds. Like one of Nightblade's skill lines might be acquired at the Thieves Guild and 1 of Necromancer's might be acquired at the Mages guild. The trainer also dont need to be in guilds, that is just one possible location.

You will still only be allowed to have 3 class skill lines at anytime and just like when you respec it will cost gold. When you find a person who can train you in a class skill line you will pay them then you are able to choose which class you would like to replace with the one you are being trained in. Any skill points that are in the skill line your replacing will be refunded. I also think you should only be able to change all 3 of your class skill line once a week or al least once a day.

This would allow a lot more role playing opportunities. You could make summoner with Animal Companions Skill line, Grave Lord Skill line, and Daedric Summoning skill line.
A Lightning and Fire Mage with a combination of Dragonknight and Sorcerer. This would also help people be healers as the Restoring Light skill line is easily the best class skill line for healers.

This may need some tweaks but I think this is a good idea for the game going forward as it doesn't really effect people that have been playing the game for a while and is just an option. What does everyone think?

VaranisArano · August 2020

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Snockooz · August 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

MashmalloMan · August 2020

They won't ever do this because they like the classes to have a noticable theme present through all their abilities allowing you to react to them instinctively in combat.

This is the exact same methodology used in games like Overwatch. The dev's actively design every hero with a distinct silhouette, art style, sound and character.

By allowing everyone to choose a skill line from any class, you throw true class identity out the window. This game is first and foremost an MMO which is based on providing meaningful ways to build your character, by changing how you make your character, you're enabling a huge chunk of the playerbase to focus too hard on choosing the most optimal damage, tank or healing trees for their given roles.

While it sounds fun.. it would completely destroy the games balance and originality because you could overcome a lot of the current classes downsides with the upsides from other classes.

How do you even balance skills anymore when you know anyone can pick up everything, it would end up costing us unique class skills. I bet you 9/10 players would pick up the Sorc's Stormcalling tree for Crit Surge and Streak with NB's Shadow tree for Invis.

Do we really want to fight players that can Streak, Invis and Jab you to death? No thanks.

BTW, this topic gets brought up like once a month. There is some support for it, but most people seem to agree that this would just be another stone thrown on top of the homogenization pile that is currently destroying aspects of this game.

I'd much rather see a well balanced Spell Crafting system and New Weapons introduced personally.

Gilvoth · August 2020

it would work perfectly if we follow the way it was done in morrowind. it had limits.
we could choose 1 major class skill
and one minor class skill
and one healing
and one dps skill
from a Large pile of all the skills in the game it would be exactly how morrowind classless system works and would be the best thing and so wonderful, there would be the best builds we have ever seen just pouring out with build after build and everyone would enjoy it exactly like we do in morrowinds single player game.
i hope this happens.
and yes i am serious, if you want to see how easy it is just look at morrowinds "make your own class" set up and youll see it how wonderful it really is.

MashmalloMan · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

Because some skill lines are just stronger than others in their class kits or when directly compared to other classes skill lines. Not everything is balanced perfectly the same. They're balanced as a whole cohesive unit.

This is why some classes are allowed to have very strong abilities when considered in a vaccum, because it's balanced against the rest of the class as a whole. As soon as you allow anyone to pick any skill line, identity in the game dies as ZOS spends the next 2-3 years trying to balance skills out until they're no longer what they use to be.

Streak and Shadowy Disguise are the easiest examples I can think of. They work for the classes they're attached to, giving them to other classes is game changing and would result in everyone picking whats strongest instead of picking a class that may have some great upsides and some major downsides that you choose to ignore because the good outweighs the bad. Thats what balance is. Shades of black, white and grey. Good, bad and okay.

Balance in a classless system results in an abundance of GREY which just isn't fun.

idk · August 2020

The premise that any class can perform any role as being the basis of reasoning that we should have access to the skill lines of any class does not make sense.

ESO already provides more choice, and fewer restrictions, than any recent major MMORPG title I can think of. I am sure there is one that does not come to mind, logic is still so very sound. Further, the idea would make balancing a bigger challenge as it adds more variables to the picture.

The idea would also reduce the little bit of class flavor we have in-game and lead to less choice in our builds. It just seems like an idea that is not good for the game in any manner.

Edit: @VaranisArano says it best that this would destroy diversity in the game.

idk · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

First off you have not proved that this idea brings actual worthy value to the game to start with. The fact is that Zos looks at ideas for what they bring to the game, issues they may cause, and the cost/time requried to make it happen when they consider an idea. So the burden is much heavier on you than it is on Varanis.

The proof seems rather obvious and you even allude to it in your reply I quoted noting with how it would homogenize healing as any solid healer would use the restoring light skill line (or the wardens' skill line).

Further, all tank or DPS builds being the same is irrelevant, all it takes is them becoming more alike in a game where there is already very little class flavor or uniqueness. The idea presented would reduce that even more than it is now. Again, you have even acknowledged that this will happen.

Vevvev · August 2020

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking, everyone found out the best combinations and used them to such effect that if you didn't use them you were gimping yourself. To even limit us to just 3 class skill lines is enough to completely destroy balance in this game and further water it down.

If you want another example look at Skyrim and Oblivion. There is a reason the stealth archer meme exists even though there are ways to make other play styles work.

Snockooz · August 2020

idk wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

First off you have not proved that this idea brings actual worthy value to the game to start with. The fact is that Zos looks at ideas for what they bring to the game, issues they may cause, and the cost/time requried to make it happen when they consider an idea. So the burden is much heavier on you than it is on Varanis.

The proof seems rather obvious and you even allude to it in your reply I quoted noting with how it would homogenize healing as any solid healer would use the restoring light skill line (or the wardens' skill line).

Further, all tank or DPS builds being the same is irrelevant, all it takes is them becoming more alike in a game where there is already very little class flavor or uniqueness. The idea presented would reduce that even more than it is now. Again, you have even acknowledged that this will happen.

I have provided why I think this Idea has value. whether you think it is is your opinion. I asked for them to provide proof as all they said is That it would " destroy diversity" this statement provides 0 context as to why that is. I understand that others have provided actual insight as to why but when this was posted there wasn't any.

The reason i said most Healer will use resorting light is because it is a very good healing skill line. However a Healers Job is to heal, Buff and make synergies for Allies. So, here are the are the possible skill lines that would help with that.

Siphoning Skills - Soul Shred (Healing), Malevolent Offering(Healing)

Restoring Light Skills - All the Skills

Storm Calling Skills - Surge(Increaed spell damage increasing Healing),Lightning Splash(Synergy)

Daedric Summoning Skills - Summon Storm Atronach(Synergy/damage buff), Summon Winged Twilight(healing)

Earthen Heart Skills - Magma Shell(Damage Shield buff), Molten Weapons(damage buff), Obsidian Shield(Damage shield buff and healling, Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm(healing)

Living Death Skills - Reanimate(Reanimating Allies), Render Flesh(healing), Life amid Death(healing),Spirit Mender(Healing), Restoring Tether(Healing and Increasing Healing done)

Green Balance Skills - all the skills

Winter's Embrace Skills - Sleet Storm(Reduce Allie damage taken Buff), Frost Cloak(increase Allie resistance buff), Polar Wind morph(Healing), Frozen Retreat Morph(synergy)

Green Balance and Restoring Light are the 2 best but they do a lot of the same things and their passive only effect the skills in their skill line so i don't see people using both of them that much, most Healer would likely have one of them.
So, there are 24 possible combinations for a Healer class or 12 if you assume that most healer will have either have GB or RL in their 3 skill lines. As apposed to now where the only real viable Healer classes are Warden and Templar.

idk · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

First off you have not proved that this idea brings actual worthy value to the game to start with. The fact is that Zos looks at ideas for what they bring to the game, issues they may cause, and the cost/time requried to make it happen when they consider an idea. So the burden is much heavier on you than it is on Varanis.

The proof seems rather obvious and you even allude to it in your reply I quoted noting with how it would homogenize healing as any solid healer would use the restoring light skill line (or the wardens' skill line).

Further, all tank or DPS builds being the same is irrelevant, all it takes is them becoming more alike in a game where there is already very little class flavor or uniqueness. The idea presented would reduce that even more than it is now. Again, you have even acknowledged that this will happen.

I have provided why I think this Idea has value. whether you think it is is your opinion. I asked for them to provide proof as all they said is That it would " destroy diversity" this statement provides 0 context as to why that is. I understand that others have provided actual insight as to why but when this was posted there wasn't any.
The reason i said most Healer will use resorting light is because it is a very good healing skill line. However a Healers Job is to heal, Buff and make synergies for Allies. So, here are the are the possible skill lines that would help with that.

Siphoning Skills - Soul Shred (Healing), Malevolent Offering(Healing)

Restoring Light Skills - All the Skills

Storm Calling Skills - Surge(Increaed spell damage increasing Healing),Lightning Splash(Synergy)

Daedric Summoning Skills - Summon Storm Atronach(Synergy/damage buff), Summon Winged Twilight(healing)

Earthen Heart Skills - Magma Shell(Damage Shield buff), Molten Weapons(damage buff), Obsidian Shield(Damage shield buff and healling, Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm(healing)

Living Death Skills - Reanimate(Reanimating Allies), Render Flesh(healing), Life amid Death(healing),Spirit Mender(Healing), Restoring Tether(Healing and Increasing Healing done)

Green Balance Skills - all the skills

Winter's Embrace Skills - Sleet Storm(Reduce Allie damage taken Buff), Frost Cloak(increase Allie resistance buff), Polar Wind morph(Healing), Frozen Retreat Morph(synergy)

Green Balance and Restoring Light are the 2 best but they do a lot of the same things and their passive only effect the skills in their skill line so i don't see people using both of them that much, most Healer would likely have one of them.
So, there are 24 possible combinations for a Healer class or 12 if you assume that most healer will have either have GB or RL in their 3 skill lines. As apposed to now where the only real viable Healer classes are Warden and Templar.

I provided the context for them, which was pretty obvious. The entire premise of the idea proposed is to eliminate class divisions since it allows all classes to have access to the skills of the other classes. That is the makings of complete homogenization of the game and by definition, it would destroy diversity in the game.

In reality, with the proposed idea a player would not really have a choice in what class skill lines they would gain access to. Just as the meta defines a limited number of sets and specific skills for each class to perform well the proposed idea would reduce the number of skills even further.

This is not an opinion but a fact that is supported by how the end results of theory crafting work. It is supported by the fact that as we have more choices in ESO than other major MMORPG games we have less diversity in our builds. The proposed idea would greatly reduce that diversity by design.

You are entitled to your opinion but I have based mine on facts, as demonstrated, would reduce choice in practice, not increase it. I stand with the clear majority that has replied here, that this would be bad for the game.

the1andonlyskwex · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

First off you have not proved that this idea brings actual worthy value to the game to start with. The fact is that Zos looks at ideas for what they bring to the game, issues they may cause, and the cost/time requried to make it happen when they consider an idea. So the burden is much heavier on you than it is on Varanis.

The proof seems rather obvious and you even allude to it in your reply I quoted noting with how it would homogenize healing as any solid healer would use the restoring light skill line (or the wardens' skill line).

Further, all tank or DPS builds being the same is irrelevant, all it takes is them becoming more alike in a game where there is already very little class flavor or uniqueness. The idea presented would reduce that even more than it is now. Again, you have even acknowledged that this will happen.

I have provided why I think this Idea has value. whether you think it is is your opinion. I asked for them to provide proof as all they said is That it would " destroy diversity" this statement provides 0 context as to why that is. I understand that others have provided actual insight as to why but when this was posted there wasn't any.

The reason i said most Healer will use resorting light is because it is a very good healing skill line. However a Healers Job is to heal, Buff and make synergies for Allies. So, here are the are the possible skill lines that would help with that.

Siphoning Skills - Soul Shred (Healing), Malevolent Offering(Healing)

Restoring Light Skills - All the Skills

Storm Calling Skills - Surge(Increaed spell damage increasing Healing),Lightning Splash(Synergy)

Daedric Summoning Skills - Summon Storm Atronach(Synergy/damage buff), Summon Winged Twilight(healing)

Earthen Heart Skills - Magma Shell(Damage Shield buff), Molten Weapons(damage buff), Obsidian Shield(Damage shield buff and healling, Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm(healing)

Living Death Skills - Reanimate(Reanimating Allies), Render Flesh(healing), Life amid Death(healing),Spirit Mender(Healing), Restoring Tether(Healing and Increasing Healing done)

Green Balance Skills - all the skills

Winter's Embrace Skills - Sleet Storm(Reduce Allie damage taken Buff), Frost Cloak(increase Allie resistance buff), Polar Wind morph(Healing), Frozen Retreat Morph(synergy)

Green Balance and Restoring Light are the 2 best but they do a lot of the same things and their passive only effect the skills in their skill line so i don't see people using both of them that much, most Healer would likely have one of them.
So, there are 24 possible combinations for a Healer class or 12 if you assume that most healer will have either have GB or RL in their 3 skill lines. As apposed to now where the only real viable Healer classes are Warden and Templar.

You're missing the point. Sure, there are a whole bunch of options, but pretty quickly people will figure out that one combination is better than the others. Once that happens, there won't be any reason for any progression or leaderboard-oriented group to take anything else. Then if/when ZOS tries to make balance adjustments, they'll have to account for hundreds of options and interactions instead of just 6 classes (which will just result in a different meta build that everyone uses).

Skullstachio · August 2020

It is a terrible idea and 90% of the community knows it. If anything, choosing one class to have “as a backup” just as any character can have a main-hand and a backup hand via weapon-swap may be more optimal (but with potential diminished effectiveness since it is something outside of that classes field.) A backup class with 25% less Ability/passive effectiveness could be a thing but otherwise too dangerous a gamble.

Snockooz · August 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking, everyone found out the best combinations and used them to such effect that if you didn't use them you were gimping yourself. To even limit us to just 3 class skill lines is enough to completely destroy balance in this game and further water it down.

If you want another example look at Skyrim and Oblivion. There is a reason the stealth archer meme exists even though there are ways to make other play styles work.

Archeage only had 10 skill sets. And didn't have skill trees based on Your weapons and armor, with this there would be 18 class skill line in addition to the 3 Armor, 6 weapon, 3 world, 4 Guild, and 2 Alliance wars skill trees. There would be way more class combinations with this.

Stealth archers are so good in those game because the the AI is stupid when it come to stealth players and you can be come completely invisible forever if your sneak is high enough. These aren't a thing in ESO and what I'm talk about won't make those a thing.

MashmalloMan · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking, everyone found out the best combinations and used them to such effect that if you didn't use them you were gimping yourself. To even limit us to just 3 class skill lines is enough to completely destroy balance in this game and further water it down.

If you want another example look at Skyrim and Oblivion. There is a reason the stealth archer meme exists even though there are ways to make other play styles work.

Archeage only had 10 skill sets. And didn't have skill trees based on Your weapons and armor, with this there would be 18 class skill line in addition to the 3 Armor, 6 weapon, 3 world, 4 Guild, and 2 Alliance wars skill trees. There would be way more class combinations with this.

Stealth archers are so good in those game because the the AI is stupid when it come to stealth players and you can be come completely invisible forever if your sneak is high enough. These aren't a thing in ESO and what I'm talk about won't make those a thing.

Give 1000 combinations and it will still result in the best 3 being chosen

idk · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking, everyone found out the best combinations and used them to such effect that if you didn't use them you were gimping yourself. To even limit us to just 3 class skill lines is enough to completely destroy balance in this game and further water it down.

If you want another example look at Skyrim and Oblivion. There is a reason the stealth archer meme exists even though there are ways to make other play styles work.

Archeage only had 10 skill sets. And didn't have skill trees based on Your weapons and armor, with this there would be 18 class skill line in addition to the 3 Armor, 6 weapon, 3 world, 4 Guild, and 2 Alliance wars skill trees. There would be way more class combinations with this.

Stealth archers are so good in those game because the the AI is stupid when it come to stealth players and you can be come completely invisible forever if your sneak is high enough. These aren't a thing in ESO and what I'm talk about won't make those a thing.

Archeage is a pathetic game compared to ESO. It is a pathetic game period. Anything ESO does differently than Archeage should remain different.

Snockooz · August 2020

idk wrote: »

I provided the context for them, which was pretty obvious. The entire premise of the idea proposed is to eliminate class divisions since it allows all classes to have access to the skills of the other classes. That is the makings of complete homogenization of the game and by definition, it would destroy diversity in the game.

That wouldn't make a Homogenized game. You are assuming this would happen you have provided 0 proof that would. The Game is already fairly Homogenized most Tank are DK's, most DPS are Sorcerers or nightshades, and Most healer are Templar or Wardens, so the game already has low class diversity.

In reality, with the proposed idea a player would not really have a choice in what class skill lines they would gain access to. Just as the meta defines a limited number of sets and specific skills for each class to perform well the proposed idea would reduce the number of skills even further.

No they would have plenty of choice as there are numerous Skill lines that are effective in DPS, Tanking, and Healing. I showed the number of healing possibilities and there are just as many if not more for tanks and DPS.

This is not an opinion but a fact that is supported by how the end results of theory crafting work. It is supported by the fact that as we have more choices in ESO than other major MMORPG games we have less diversity in our builds. The proposed idea would greatly reduce that diversity by design.

We have less diversity in are builds because each class is very clearly tailored to a specific build. This would eliminate that by give players actual options in what they want their class to be.

You are entitled to your opinion but I have based mine on facts, as demonstrated, would reduce choice in practice, not increase it. I stand with the clear majority that has replied here, that this would be bad for the game.

Got to love that "mine is based of fact" while providing 0 facts.

Snockooz · August 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking, everyone found out the best combinations and used them to such effect that if you didn't use them you were gimping yourself. To even limit us to just 3 class skill lines is enough to completely destroy balance in this game and further water it down.

If you want another example look at Skyrim and Oblivion. There is a reason the stealth archer meme exists even though there are ways to make other play styles work.

Archeage only had 10 skill sets. And didn't have skill trees based on Your weapons and armor, with this there would be 18 class skill line in addition to the 3 Armor, 6 weapon, 3 world, 4 Guild, and 2 Alliance wars skill trees. There would be way more class combinations with this.

Stealth archers are so good in those game because the the AI is stupid when it come to stealth players and you can be come completely invisible forever if your sneak is high enough. These aren't a thing in ESO and what I'm talk about won't make those a thing.

Give 1000 combinations and it will still result in the best 3 being chosen

the assumption there is that there would be only 3.

Snockooz · August 2020

idk wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking, everyone found out the best combinations and used them to such effect that if you didn't use them you were gimping yourself. To even limit us to just 3 class skill lines is enough to completely destroy balance in this game and further water it down.

If you want another example look at Skyrim and Oblivion. There is a reason the stealth archer meme exists even though there are ways to make other play styles work.

Archeage only had 10 skill sets. And didn't have skill trees based on Your weapons and armor, with this there would be 18 class skill line in addition to the 3 Armor, 6 weapon, 3 world, 4 Guild, and 2 Alliance wars skill trees. There would be way more class combinations with this.

Stealth archers are so good in those game because the the AI is stupid when it come to stealth players and you can be come completely invisible forever if your sneak is high enough. These aren't a thing in ESO and what I'm talk about won't make those a thing.

Archeage is a pathetic game compared to ESO. It is a pathetic game period. Anything ESO does differently than Archeage should remain different.

That is one hell of an absolute. God forbid a Game have good concept that are implemented badly. You know, like ESO has done with a lot of the things they have implemented.

ealdwin · August 2020

As others have previously pointed out, while this idea may seem appealing, the actual result would be a refining of the meta for each role, resulting in less build diversity overall.

Consider the reasons that magicka DDs tend to run nearly the same gear setup regardless of class. Sure, are there some who run different sets for fun. But, if you look across the board, the current meta is False God's + Mother's Sorrow. Why? It's simply the most effective dps setup.

Now if you throw in all the various skill trees in the game into the mix, there will be 3 skill trees that become the meta. Why? They will be the 3 skill trees that produce the most effective dps setup. A meta will develop regardless of the choices available, because people will just naturally seek out what is the best. What would most likely end up happening is that certain roles would require certain skill lines. Right now there might be 3 classes that do top tier dps numbers, or 2 classes that make excellent healers. This idea would mean that each role would have 1 most effective setup, which in effect would decrease the number of classes to 4, one for each role. Would there be variants? Yes, of course. Not everyone runs the meta. But would there be a meta. Absolutely, and that meta would be more singularly defined than it is now, with less flexibility in it.

SshadowSscale · August 2020

Is this was to become a thing diversity would die in 2 seconds if not less.... I see healers bring brought up a lot in this thread and I can ready see the same healing builfs being used over and over....there are only 4 skill lines that will truly be used and out of those 4 it is easy to see what the meta 3 will be..... It will be deadric summoning for the twilight(free passive damage as a healer plus burst heal) restoring light wich is an obvious choice(purge burst heals heal over times etc) and then it is either living death or green balance and out of thise 2 I think Green balance will reign supreme for having better passives and insane ult and just all around good hots and buffs etc.... Granted living death might be chosen sometimes for the res ult on a healer but if a group is going for no death green balance would be better..... That is how you kill class divesity.....

ManwithBeard9 · August 2020

No.

ealdwin · August 2020

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Is this was to become a thing diversity would die in 2 seconds if not less.... I see healers bring brought up a lot in this thread and I can ready see the same healing builfs being used over and over....there are only 4 skill lines that will truly be used and out of those 4 it is easy to see what the meta 3 will be..... It will be deadric summoning for the twilight(free passive damage as a healer plus burst heal) restoring light wich is an obvious choice(purge burst heals heal over times etc) and then it is either living death or green balance and out of thise 2 I think Green balance will reign supreme for having better passives and insane ult and just all around good hots and buffs etc.... Granted living death might be chosen sometimes for the res ult on a healer but if a group is going for no death green balance would be better..... That is how you kill class divesity.....

Daedric Summoning + Restoring Light + Green Balance = PVE Healer meta
Daedric Summoning + Restoring Light + Living Death = PVP Healer meta

fun

idk · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I provided the context for them, which was pretty obvious. The entire premise of the idea proposed is to eliminate class divisions since it allows all classes to have access to the skills of the other classes. That is the makings of complete homogenization of the game and by definition, it would destroy diversity in the game.

That wouldn't make a Homogenized game. You are assuming this would happen you have provided 0 proof that would. The Game is already fairly Homogenized most Tank are DK's, most DPS are Sorcerers or nightshades, and Most healer are Templar or Wardens, so the game already has low class diversity.

In reality, with the proposed idea a player would not really have a choice in what class skill lines they would gain access to. Just as the meta defines a limited number of sets and specific skills for each class to perform well the proposed idea would reduce the number of skills even further.

No they would have plenty of choice as there are numerous Skill lines that are effective in DPS, Tanking, and Healing. I showed the number of healing possibilities and there are just as many if not more for tanks and DPS.

This is not an opinion but a fact that is supported by how the end results of theory crafting work. It is supported by the fact that as we have more choices in ESO than other major MMORPG games we have less diversity in our builds. The proposed idea would greatly reduce that diversity by design.

We have less diversity in are builds because each class is very clearly tailored to a specific build. This would eliminate that by give players actual options in what they want their class to be.

You are entitled to your opinion but I have based mine on facts, as demonstrated, would reduce choice in practice, not increase it. I stand with the clear majority that has replied here, that this would be bad for the game.

Got to love that "mine is based of fact" while providing 0 facts.

1. It would be because it would put the best skills at the hands of every class. The very fact that so many non-class skills are used by every build, that so much of every build is the same across all classes is indisputable proof of this. It is a fact and why this thread is full of people who say the suggestion is bad for the game.

2. Again, the very fact we have a greater selection of skills for any and every build in ESO yet our builds are so similar proves that having more choice does not lead to greater diversity for those interested in performing at the top of their game. Again, t the suggestion present is by definition suggestion homogenization.

3. To suggest we have less diversity because each class is tailored differently is a contradiction in itself.

I realize this is inconvenient but it is based on facts that the game itself supports. It also seems more people interested in responding to this thread also agree as I only count one in support of the suggestion.

idk · August 2020

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Is this was to become a thing diversity would die in 2 seconds if not less.

ealdwin wrote: »

As others have previously pointed out, while this idea may seem appealing, the actual result would be a refining of the meta for each role, resulting in less build diversity overall.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking, everyone found out the best combinations and used them to such effect that if you didn't use them you were gimping yourself. To even limit us to just 3 class skill lines is enough to completely destroy balance in this game and further water it down.

If you want another example look at Skyrim and Oblivion. There is a reason the stealth archer meme exists even though there are ways to make other play styles work.

Archeage only had 10 skill sets. And didn't have skill trees based on Your weapons and armor, with this there would be 18 class skill line in addition to the 3 Armor, 6 weapon, 3 world, 4 Guild, and 2 Alliance wars skill trees. There would be way more class combinations with this.

Stealth archers are so good in those game because the the AI is stupid when it come to stealth players and you can be come completely invisible forever if your sneak is high enough. These aren't a thing in ESO and what I'm talk about won't make those a thing.

Give 1000 combinations and it will still result in the best 3 being chosen

Skullstachio wrote: »

It is a terrible idea and 90% of the community knows it.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

Do you mind proving that? Other than most Healers likely have Restoring Light i Don't think All Tank or DPS will end up being the same. Even Healers will likely have different skill lines other than Restoring Light.

First off you have not proved that this idea brings actual worthy value to the game to start with. The fact is that Zos looks at ideas for what they bring to the game, issues they may cause, and the cost/time requried to make it happen when they consider an idea. So the burden is much heavier on you than it is on Varanis.

The proof seems rather obvious and you even allude to it in your reply I quoted noting with how it would homogenize healing as any solid healer would use the restoring light skill line (or the wardens' skill line).

Further, all tank or DPS builds being the same is irrelevant, all it takes is them becoming more alike in a game where there is already very little class flavor or uniqueness. The idea presented would reduce that even more than it is now. Again, you have even acknowledged that this will happen.

I have provided why I think this Idea has value. whether you think it is is your opinion. I asked for them to provide proof as all they said is That it would " destroy diversity" this statement provides 0 context as to why that is. I understand that others have provided actual insight as to why but when this was posted there wasn't any.

The reason i said most Healer will use resorting light is because it is a very good healing skill line. However a Healers Job is to heal, Buff and make synergies for Allies. So, here are the are the possible skill lines that would help with that.

Siphoning Skills - Soul Shred (Healing), Malevolent Offering(Healing)

Restoring Light Skills - All the Skills

Storm Calling Skills - Surge(Increaed spell damage increasing Healing),Lightning Splash(Synergy)

Daedric Summoning Skills - Summon Storm Atronach(Synergy/damage buff), Summon Winged Twilight(healing)

Earthen Heart Skills - Magma Shell(Damage Shield buff), Molten Weapons(damage buff), Obsidian Shield(Damage shield buff and healling, Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm(healing)

Living Death Skills - Reanimate(Reanimating Allies), Render Flesh(healing), Life amid Death(healing),Spirit Mender(Healing), Restoring Tether(Healing and Increasing Healing done)

Green Balance Skills - all the skills

Winter's Embrace Skills - Sleet Storm(Reduce Allie damage taken Buff), Frost Cloak(increase Allie resistance buff), Polar Wind morph(Healing), Frozen Retreat Morph(synergy)

Green Balance and Restoring Light are the 2 best but they do a lot of the same things and their passive only effect the skills in their skill line so i don't see people using both of them that much, most Healer would likely have one of them.
So, there are 24 possible combinations for a Healer class or 12 if you assume that most healer will have either have GB or RL in their 3 skill lines. As apposed to now where the only real viable Healer classes are Warden and Templar.

You're missing the point. Sure, there are a whole bunch of options, but pretty quickly people will figure out that one combination is better than the others.

Vevvev wrote: »

This is a terrible idea. I've played gamed like Archeage that tried this and even though you had over 200 class combinations the meta revolved around 3 of those 200+. I'm not joking,

VaranisArano wrote: »

It would destroy diversity in end game content because it would create a single meta for each role made of the best skills cherrypicked from three skill lines.

The majority of those that have responded so far are in harmony with the idea that the suggestion would eliminate build diversity and that this idea would be bad for the game.

I do commend you for bringing your suggestion to the forums as it takes effort and thought to take on such endeavors and open oneself to such critique. Please do not take any of these responses as being personal. We are only responding to the idea presented.

Snockooz · August 2020

idk wrote: »

1. It would be because it would put the best skills at the hands of every class. The very fact that so many non-class skills are used by every build, that so much of every build is the same across all classes is indisputable proof of this. It is a fact and why this thread is full of people who say the suggestion is bad for the game.

2. Again, the very fact we have a greater selection of skills for any and every build in ESO yet our builds are so similar proves that having more choice does not lead to greater diversity for those interested in performing at the top of their game. Again, t the suggestion present is by definition suggestion homogenization.

3. To suggest we have less diversity because each class is tailored differently is a contradiction in itself.

I realize this is inconvenient but it is based on facts that the game itself supports. It also seems more people interested in responding to this thread also agree as I only count one in support of the suggestion.

So i posted this on the ESO subreddite. One of the suggestions for how this could work is by using Major And minor skill line when you do this. Basically if you choose to change one of your class skill lines all of you Class skill line are nerfed by a set Percentage until you pick a one as a Major Skill then your major skill line is the only one that isn't Nerfed. My suggestion was a 20% nerf to all skills and passive in your Minor skill line. However the nerf could be different depending on the skill line.

SshadowSscale · August 2020

ealdwin wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Is this was to become a thing diversity would die in 2 seconds if not less.... I see healers bring brought up a lot in this thread and I can ready see the same healing builfs being used over and over....there are only 4 skill lines that will truly be used and out of those 4 it is easy to see what the meta 3 will be..... It will be deadric summoning for the twilight(free passive damage as a healer plus burst heal) restoring light wich is an obvious choice(purge burst heals heal over times etc) and then it is either living death or green balance and out of thise 2 I think Green balance will reign supreme for having better passives and insane ult and just all around good hots and buffs etc.... Granted living death might be chosen sometimes for the res ult on a healer but if a group is going for no death green balance would be better..... That is how you kill class divesity.....

Daedric Summoning + Restoring Light + Green Balance = PVE Healer meta
Daedric Summoning + Restoring Light + Living Death = PVP Healer meta

fun

Spot on

idk · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

1. It would be because it would put the best skills at the hands of every class. The very fact that so many non-class skills are used by every build, that so much of every build is the same across all classes is indisputable proof of this. It is a fact and why this thread is full of people who say the suggestion is bad for the game.

2. Again, the very fact we have a greater selection of skills for any and every build in ESO yet our builds are so similar proves that having more choice does not lead to greater diversity for those interested in performing at the top of their game. Again, t the suggestion present is by definition suggestion homogenization.

3. To suggest we have less diversity because each class is tailored differently is a contradiction in itself.

I realize this is inconvenient but it is based on facts that the game itself supports. It also seems more people interested in responding to this thread also agree as I only count one in support of the suggestion.

So i posted this on the ESO subreddite. One of the suggestions for how this could work is by using Major And minor skill line when you do this. Basically if you choose to change one of your class skill lines all of you Class skill line are nerfed by a set Percentage until you pick a one as a Major Skill then your major skill line is the only one that isn't Nerfed. My suggestion was a 20% nerf to all skills and passive in your Minor skill line. However the nerf could be different depending on the skill line.

That is not the suggestion you have made here. Also, we do not need to copy what other games in development have done. This is the design that has been presented for Ashes that is in early development, and I am sure another game has done. Especially when we are wanting more diversity in classes, not less.

Ashes current build prospects does not have the smorgasbord skills available to each class as we do in ESO so this idea makes more sense for that game. To be able to dps and heal in the Ashes world requires having access to two classes. That is not required in ESO as we can dps and heal on any class merely with the choice of weapons or other skill lines even before considering class skills.

Then there is the chance Zos would truly consider such an idea. Considering they just finished the bulk a major combat overhaul that they are currently tweaking I am expecting would likely not want to have to revisit that the rework that this would require without a compelling reason which I do not see. Of course, there is the heavy change fatigue the player base has grown tired of due to that major overhaul and we pretty much are not interested in doing it again so soon.

Snockooz · August 2020

idk wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

1. It would be because it would put the best skills at the hands of every class. The very fact that so many non-class skills are used by every build, that so much of every build is the same across all classes is indisputable proof of this. It is a fact and why this thread is full of people who say the suggestion is bad for the game.

2. Again, the very fact we have a greater selection of skills for any and every build in ESO yet our builds are so similar proves that having more choice does not lead to greater diversity for those interested in performing at the top of their game. Again, t the suggestion present is by definition suggestion homogenization.

3. To suggest we have less diversity because each class is tailored differently is a contradiction in itself.

I realize this is inconvenient but it is based on facts that the game itself supports. It also seems more people interested in responding to this thread also agree as I only count one in support of the suggestion.

So i posted this on the ESO subreddite. One of the suggestions for how this could work is by using Major And minor skill line when you do this. Basically if you choose to change one of your class skill lines all of you Class skill line are nerfed by a set Percentage until you pick a one as a Major Skill then your major skill line is the only one that isn't Nerfed. My suggestion was a 20% nerf to all skills and passive in your Minor skill line. However the nerf could be different depending on the skill line.

That is not the suggestion you have made here. Also, we do not need to copy what other games in development have done. This is the design that has been presented for Ashes that is in early development, and I am sure another game has done. Especially when we are wanting more diversity in classes, not less.

Ashes current build prospects does not have the smorgasbord skills available to each class as we do in ESO so this idea makes more sense for that game. To be able to dps and heal in the Ashes world requires having access to two classes. That is not required in ESO as we can dps and heal on any class merely with the choice of weapons or other skill lines even before considering class skills.

Then there is the chance Zos would truly consider such an idea. Considering they just finished the bulk a major combat overhaul that they are currently tweaking I am expecting would likely not want to have to revisit that the rework that this would require without a compelling reason which I do not see. Of course, there is the heavy change fatigue the player base has grown tired of due to that major overhaul and we pretty much are not interested in doing it again so soon.

Thats what i suggested on the subreddit. I've never heard of Ashes of creation.
So how would it break the meta if both minor class skill lines were nerfed?

idk · August 2020

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Snockooz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

1. It would be because it would put the best skills at the hands of every class. The very fact that so many non-class skills are used by every build, that so much of every build is the same across all classes is indisputable proof of this. It is a fact and why this thread is full of people who say the suggestion is bad for the game.

2. Again, the very fact we have a greater selection of skills for any and every build in ESO yet our builds are so similar proves that having more choice does not lead to greater diversity for those interested in performing at the top of their game. Again, t the suggestion present is by definition suggestion homogenization.

3. To suggest we have less diversity because each class is tailored differently is a contradiction in itself.

I realize this is inconvenient but it is based on facts that the game itself supports. It also seems more people interested in responding to this thread also agree as I only count one in support of the suggestion.

So i posted this on the ESO subreddite. One of the suggestions for how this could work is by using Major And minor skill line when you do this. Basically if you choose to change one of your class skill lines all of you Class skill line are nerfed by a set Percentage until you pick a one as a Major Skill then your major skill line is the only one that isn't Nerfed. My suggestion was a 20% nerf to all skills and passive in your Minor skill line. However the nerf could be different depending on the skill line.

That is not the suggestion you have made here. Also, we do not need to copy what other games in development have done. This is the design that has been presented for Ashes that is in early development, and I am sure another game has done. Especially when we are wanting more diversity in classes, not less.

Ashes current build prospects does not have the smorgasbord skills available to each class as we do in ESO so this idea makes more sense for that game. To be able to dps and heal in the Ashes world requires having access to two classes. That is not required in ESO as we can dps and heal on any class merely with the choice of weapons or other skill lines even before considering class skills.

Then there is the chance Zos would truly consider such an idea. Considering they just finished the bulk a major combat overhaul that they are currently tweaking I am expecting would likely not want to have to revisit that the rework that this would require without a compelling reason which I do not see. Of course, there is the heavy change fatigue the player base has grown tired of due to that major overhaul and we pretty much are not interested in doing it again so soon.

Thats what i suggested on the subreddit. I've never heard of Ashes of creation.
So how would it break the meta if both minor class skill lines were nerfed?

I did not say anything about the meta with the one reply to your subreddit post. I did say that Zos is unlikely to give such an idea any thought as it would require a complete rework of the combat design which is something they have mostly just completed. It is also not needed in any way because we already have a large selection of choices in and outside of our class skill lines which is far more than any of today's' major MMORPGs.

It is a fine idea for a game being developed to consider but not a great idea to do a wholesale change to the combat design in an existing game that is doing great with its current combat design. Change for the sake of change is the worst kind of change and that is what this is.

TwinLamps · August 2020

Would be mad, ngl