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PvP is catered to DPS only
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Who runs strictly as a DPS in PvP, other than those that may run with zergs. PvP, true PvP, requires builds and skill that are as much defense (including heals) as they are offense unless one is going pure tank then it is mostly defense with some proc set offense (LOL).
Player skill is still most important in the end as it is required for avoiding/mitigating damage as needed and being able to outplay one's opponent. Granted, ESO PvP is open to a lot of cheese but this still holds true.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
There are already single-target heals in the game, which require aiming specifically at the target you want to heal.Issue with healing is that the game has "smart" healing that essentially took away the skill aspect from being a healer. Why aim and select who you want to heal when the game does it for you in an efficient automatic method? if healing was mechanically harder and more efficient when a player is mentally focused on doing heals, we wouldnt see things like every single mag player in PvP just running and stacking rapid regen automatically on the lowest health target. If a dps player can aim at a low health enemy running around to hit them, a healer could manage aiming at a low health ally to heal them.
For example, Symbiosis and morphs, or the Warden vine.
Now, if you go into PvP, you will notice that noone ever uses these abilities, or that they are very occasionally used but only for their other effects (not for healing).
This is the case because these abilities suck - they are much less powerful than comparable multi-target heals - and that targeting the right ally to heal is an exercise in futility because the game always highlights the wrong targets at all time. (similar to how in PvE, single target ultimates tend to usually hit random rats, spiders and other critters with 1 HP for some reason)
I know, and there is half the issue there, there is no incentive to run an ability that requires aiming over an ability that automatically does it for you. Just poor game design Imo
Because aiming is not that reliable. Oh, and the factor that the heal that can be targeted will pull the healer to a location they probably do not want to go.
It is not poor game design, just different than WoW and FF. Mostly due to the fact the game is not design so one can click the screen to do everything.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is not a "I loss and now complaining" thread. Nor do I want to bash on Dps or demean those who play the role. This is just my outlook on the current state of PvP and personal opinion.
When I say catered to Dps the evidence is overwhelming. Dps has zero restrictions in Pvp and all the benefits. It makes it completely pointless to play a Tank or healer role and infact punishes you for doing so. For example
The Tank. The Tank has to sacrifice so much to get to resistance cap, and to be able to even compete with dps penetration (which can reach numbers of 10k+) they have to go over the resistance by at least a min of 15k while at the same time stacking massive amounts of crit resist just to be considered a "Tank".
Even this is not enough because with the pvp heal debuff along with the ease of getting major defile now two dps can drop said "Tank" in seconds.
The Healer. Again has to sacrifice so much defense and raw damage just to be able to heal for a minimal amount with the 90% heal debuff (Battle spirit+Defile). So they rely on shields to keep them alive so they can heal. Yet this again is nerfed by half in pvp leaving them vulnerable to be taken out with ease.
I know people were complaining about healer sheild stackers and near unkillable tanks. And yes I know they can be annoying. But these were Eso players style on how they wanted to play, but because of the complaints it killed the Tank and Healer roles in PvP.
Now Eso seems to cater only to the Dps. Not just in PvP, But PvE. And hardly punishes them as sever as they punish the healers and tanks.
Now I am not calling for nerfs to Dps, Nor am I downing anyone who plays the roles. But I would love to see healer and tanks brought back to their glory era. Back when it took coordinated effort to take a healer out and where a Tank was a TANK and could withstand the onslaught of not just one or two players, but five or six.
Again this is just my opinion and I thank you for taking the time to read it.
Yeah, this game has always catered toward DPS. If you want some proof of that, just observe some of the comments in this very thread where they refer to healers and tanks as "support" roles. They don't even consider healers and tanks as main combat roles - just auxiliary support for... yep... you guessed it... the DPS.
It's ironic too - because back in the early days of MMORPGs it was tanks and healers who were considered the dominant roles. If people had called them "support" to DPS they would have been laughed at. Just goes to show how much things can change.
But when it comes to playing as a tank/defensive character in PvP - all I can tell you is to build around using Mist Form as a defensive tool. It's the only thing I've found that works. Otherwise, they're just going to disable/stun you and burst you down in seconds. Because you're right when you say building raw defenses like armor and resistance is not enough. It isn't. In fact: it will do absolutely ____ to protect you on this game.
When it comes to healers - they are even in a worse spot than tanks since they gutted healing even further. I guess they didn't suck enough because an army of healers were actually keeping people alive against the almighty DPS. We can't have that! So I don't really have much advice for you on playing healer other than to just accept your fate as a so-called "support" role and find other DPS to run around with and support.0 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I like meeting tanks in Cyro to build my ultimate off of. It was nice getting fast ultis to kill their friends with.
Healers I see as even more important now. That is why I usually kill them first.
I never had an issue with either.Edited by Girl_Number8 on August 16, 2020 5:27PM0 -
Mobius0✭✭✭As others brought out, I don't think you can just try to apply PvE roles to PvP in this game.
For example, most DPS in PvE would be considered a "glass canon" in PvP. It can have some measure of success but generally is a very poor PvP build.
Everyone needs some measure of tankiness to perform well in PvP. In fact, I'd argue that tankiness is pretty meta in PvP. Especially with such good proc sets (even sets that proc from blocking!).
The reality is you can do DPS as a tank in PvP, and you can heal. In fact, you can tank, DPS, and heal in PvE as well, honestly.
But with no taunt, you obviously need to bring something else to the table other than just being hard to kill.
So if you want to really focus on a "role" in PvP, there are still tanks/healers/DPS, it's just not as stark of a contrast as in PvE. A "tank" in PvP is a player that sacrifices more DPS and/or healing, than a "DPS" or "healer" does, and vice versa. Does that mean there is less strategy? No, in fact I'd say there is even more strategy, especially when you only have 12 skills to bring to battle, that you must choose carefully. I personally use 10-12 of my skills every single fight (that's not over in 2 seconds), which I definitely can't say about PvE.0 -
UGotBenched91✭✭✭✭✭This is not a "I loss and now complaining" thread. Nor do I want to bash on Dps or demean those who play the role. This is just my outlook on the current state of PvP and personal opinion.
When I say catered to Dps the evidence is overwhelming. Dps has zero restrictions in Pvp and all the benefits. It makes it completely pointless to play a Tank or healer role and infact punishes you for doing so. For example
The Tank. The Tank has to sacrifice so much to get to resistance cap, and to be able to even compete with dps penetration (which can reach numbers of 10k+) they have to go over the resistance by at least a min of 15k while at the same time stacking massive amounts of crit resist just to be considered a "Tank".
Even this is not enough because with the pvp heal debuff along with the ease of getting major defile now two dps can drop said "Tank" in seconds.
The Healer. Again has to sacrifice so much defense and raw damage just to be able to heal for a minimal amount with the 90% heal debuff (Battle spirit+Defile). So they rely on shields to keep them alive so they can heal. Yet this again is nerfed by half in pvp leaving them vulnerable to be taken out with ease.
I know people were complaining about healer sheild stackers and near unkillable tanks. And yes I know they can be annoying. But these were Eso players style on how they wanted to play, but because of the complaints it killed the Tank and Healer roles in PvP.
Now Eso seems to cater only to the Dps. Not just in PvP, But PvE. And hardly punishes them as sever as they punish the healers and tanks.
Now I am not calling for nerfs to Dps, Nor am I downing anyone who plays the roles. But I would love to see healer and tanks brought back to their glory era. Back when it took coordinated effort to take a healer out and where a Tank was a TANK and could withstand the onslaught of not just one or two players, but five or six.
Again this is just my opinion and I thank you for taking the time to read it.
Seems like the whole game is catered to DPS. That and this games extreme lack of diversity( not sure why people think it has so much diversity) is why I jumped ship.0 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is not a "I loss and now complaining" thread. Nor do I want to bash on Dps or demean those who play the role. This is just my outlook on the current state of PvP and personal opinion.
When I say catered to Dps the evidence is overwhelming. Dps has zero restrictions in Pvp and all the benefits. It makes it completely pointless to play a Tank or healer role and infact punishes you for doing so. For example
The Tank. The Tank has to sacrifice so much to get to resistance cap, and to be able to even compete with dps penetration (which can reach numbers of 10k+) they have to go over the resistance by at least a min of 15k while at the same time stacking massive amounts of crit resist just to be considered a "Tank".
Even this is not enough because with the pvp heal debuff along with the ease of getting major defile now two dps can drop said "Tank" in seconds.
The Healer. Again has to sacrifice so much defense and raw damage just to be able to heal for a minimal amount with the 90% heal debuff (Battle spirit+Defile). So they rely on shields to keep them alive so they can heal. Yet this again is nerfed by half in pvp leaving them vulnerable to be taken out with ease.
I know people were complaining about healer sheild stackers and near unkillable tanks. And yes I know they can be annoying. But these were Eso players style on how they wanted to play, but because of the complaints it killed the Tank and Healer roles in PvP.
Now Eso seems to cater only to the Dps. Not just in PvP, But PvE. And hardly punishes them as sever as they punish the healers and tanks.
Now I am not calling for nerfs to Dps, Nor am I downing anyone who plays the roles. But I would love to see healer and tanks brought back to their glory era. Back when it took coordinated effort to take a healer out and where a Tank was a TANK and could withstand the onslaught of not just one or two players, but five or six.
Again this is just my opinion and I thank you for taking the time to read it.
healers are in fact pretty usefull for sure not alone but in a group they can heal a full zerg and get more AP than a dps player
and tanks... they are useless anyway EVERY good player will just ignore them cause even if a dps will afk a tank doesnt have any dmg so he wouldnt ever be able to kill someone so its just useless to play tank
Hehe, actually if I find somone afk when I'm on my tank I just drop a meatbag or fire treb and get the kill. As far as ignoring the tank, go ahead and do that but how do you ignore the major and minor maim I put down reducing your damage done by 45%? How do you ignore me using an unblockable stun to stop your combo every time you use an ult? How do you ignore me leashing five people back to me and taking them off their mounts, splitting up your group as they ride by me?
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Xologamer✭✭✭✭itscompton wrote: »This is not a "I loss and now complaining" thread. Nor do I want to bash on Dps or demean those who play the role. This is just my outlook on the current state of PvP and personal opinion.
When I say catered to Dps the evidence is overwhelming. Dps has zero restrictions in Pvp and all the benefits. It makes it completely pointless to play a Tank or healer role and infact punishes you for doing so. For example
The Tank. The Tank has to sacrifice so much to get to resistance cap, and to be able to even compete with dps penetration (which can reach numbers of 10k+) they have to go over the resistance by at least a min of 15k while at the same time stacking massive amounts of crit resist just to be considered a "Tank".
Even this is not enough because with the pvp heal debuff along with the ease of getting major defile now two dps can drop said "Tank" in seconds.
The Healer. Again has to sacrifice so much defense and raw damage just to be able to heal for a minimal amount with the 90% heal debuff (Battle spirit+Defile). So they rely on shields to keep them alive so they can heal. Yet this again is nerfed by half in pvp leaving them vulnerable to be taken out with ease.
I know people were complaining about healer sheild stackers and near unkillable tanks. And yes I know they can be annoying. But these were Eso players style on how they wanted to play, but because of the complaints it killed the Tank and Healer roles in PvP.
Now Eso seems to cater only to the Dps. Not just in PvP, But PvE. And hardly punishes them as sever as they punish the healers and tanks.
Now I am not calling for nerfs to Dps, Nor am I downing anyone who plays the roles. But I would love to see healer and tanks brought back to their glory era. Back when it took coordinated effort to take a healer out and where a Tank was a TANK and could withstand the onslaught of not just one or two players, but five or six.
Again this is just my opinion and I thank you for taking the time to read it.
healers are in fact pretty usefull for sure not alone but in a group they can heal a full zerg and get more AP than a dps player
and tanks... they are useless anyway EVERY good player will just ignore them cause even if a dps will afk a tank doesnt have any dmg so he wouldnt ever be able to kill someone so its just useless to play tank
Hehe, actually if I find somone afk when I'm on my tank I just drop a meatbag or fire treb and get the kill. As far as ignoring the tank, go ahead and do that but how do you ignore the major and minor maim I put down reducing your damage done by 45%? How do you ignore me using an unblockable stun to stop your combo every time you use an ult? How do you ignore me leashing five people back to me and taking them off their mounts, splitting up your group as they ride by me?
Hehe, actually if I find somone afk when I'm on my tank I just drop a meatbag or fire treb and get the kill
fine ill accept that but MANY player arnt going to do that
As far as ignoring the tank, go ahead and do that but how do you ignore the major and minor maim I put down reducing your damage done by 45%?
if im in a group anyone will have pruge
and if i m alone i likly will slot purge my self(even on stam chars)
ah and u likly wont be able to put this on all maximum will be around 3people
How do you ignore me using an unblockable stun to stop your combo every time you use an ult?
in a good fight everyone will be on stun cooldown anyway (and if i do an important combo i time it with anti stun potions)
How do you ignore me leashing five people back to me and taking them off their mounts, splitting up your group as they ride by me?
ill ignore u and just use (depending on what class im at) for example ill just cloack away
and if u just get 5people from a group the zerg will turn arround and will kill every tank in 2min (atleas if u are not @ extrawelt)
= tank useless0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Now Eso seems to cater only to the Dps. Not just in PvP, But PvE. And hardly punishes them as sever as they punish the healers and tanks.
Because the combat system is designed for all sorts of combinations. But in PvP you need to control the possibilities so you can control the numbers and balance it. ZOS never understood this. Instead, they let people exploit their system and their programming loopholes.
Rich Lambert basically said in the AoE test declaration that players have been putting together combinations out of what was intended -- and they "allowed it". Which is a totally ridiculous move, so it's hard to say if they are just too embarrassed to say they don't know what to do about it.
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Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭I only PvP in BGs. If I brought my big DPS toon in there it would get smoked. I know I’ve tried. But when I bring a solo build to the party things change because it’s built to survive and burst. If my burst isn’t enough I can get wrecked but when I’m judging the pace of battles properly I win more than I lose 1v1 and 1v2. If there are 3 or more though I’m not built for that and I know it.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is not a "I loss and now complaining" thread. Nor do I want to bash on Dps or demean those who play the role. This is just my outlook on the current state of PvP and personal opinion.
When I say catered to Dps the evidence is overwhelming. Dps has zero restrictions in Pvp and all the benefits. It makes it completely pointless to play a Tank or healer role and infact punishes you for doing so. For example
The Tank. The Tank has to sacrifice so much to get to resistance cap, and to be able to even compete with dps penetration (which can reach numbers of 10k+) they have to go over the resistance by at least a min of 15k while at the same time stacking massive amounts of crit resist just to be considered a "Tank".
Even this is not enough because with the pvp heal debuff along with the ease of getting major defile now two dps can drop said "Tank" in seconds.
The Healer. Again has to sacrifice so much defense and raw damage just to be able to heal for a minimal amount with the 90% heal debuff (Battle spirit+Defile). So they rely on shields to keep them alive so they can heal. Yet this again is nerfed by half in pvp leaving them vulnerable to be taken out with ease.
I know people were complaining about healer sheild stackers and near unkillable tanks. And yes I know they can be annoying. But these were Eso players style on how they wanted to play, but because of the complaints it killed the Tank and Healer roles in PvP.
Now Eso seems to cater only to the Dps. Not just in PvP, But PvE. And hardly punishes them as sever as they punish the healers and tanks.
Now I am not calling for nerfs to Dps, Nor am I downing anyone who plays the roles. But I would love to see healer and tanks brought back to their glory era. Back when it took coordinated effort to take a healer out and where a Tank was a TANK and could withstand the onslaught of not just one or two players, but five or six.
Again this is just my opinion and I thank you for taking the time to read it.
Yeah, this game has always catered toward DPS. If you want some proof of that, just observe some of the comments in this very thread where they refer to healers and tanks as "support" roles. They don't even consider healers and tanks as main combat roles - just auxiliary support for... yep... you guessed it... the DPS.It's ironic too - because back in the early days of MMORPGs it was tanks and healers who were considered the dominant roles. If people had called them "support" to DPS they would have been laughed at. Just goes to show how much things can change.
But when it comes to playing as a tank/defensive character in PvP - all I can tell you is to build around using Mist Form as a defensive tool. It's the only thing I've found that works. Otherwise, they're just going to disable/stun you and burst you down in seconds. Because you're right when you say building raw defenses like armor and resistance is not enough. It isn't. In fact: it will do absolutely ____ to protect you on this game.
When it comes to healers - they are even in a worse spot than tanks since they gutted healing even further. I guess they didn't suck enough because an army of healers were actually keeping people alive against the almighty DPS. We can't have that! So I don't really have much advice for you on playing healer other than to just accept your fate as a so-called "support" role and find other DPS to run around with and support.
Not really the case with experienced players. I recall just before the game launched seeing a healer in a stream get attacked, one on one, and did not attack back. It was a very bad player to have 10 skill slots and not one offensive skill, especially for a Templar.
I digress, it is rare to find an experienced player running a pure build in Cyrodiil. Tanky players carry some DPS, often a 2H weapon of some type on their back bar. Even when I am healing for my small guild group I have one or two offensive skills outside of an ultimate because sometimes you have to take care of yourself. Magicka DPS builds since the dawn of this game are the biggest indicator that experienced players do not go with a pure build as Destro/Resto builds have been the go-to since the game launched.
While I do expect there are some players that bring PvE type builds into PvP, the fact is ESO allows great hybrid builds that we have been using in PvP for years now.0 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Self heals high mitigation and damage means good players are actually doing all three roles. Support builds help round out the sets/ultimates/skills that the DDs don’t have space for. Support players are very important for their role in combat do not underestimate good support they often make the difference. PvP tank is a meme.Edited by Fur_like_snow on August 16, 2020 9:55PM1 -
Reaper_00✭✭✭✭
But when it comes to playing as a tank/defensive character in PvP - all I can tell you is to build around using Mist Form as a defensive tool. It's the only thing I've found that works. Otherwise, they're just going to disable/stun you and burst you down in seconds. Because you're right when you say building raw defenses like armor and resistance is not enough. It isn't. In fact: it will do absolutely ____ to protect you on this game.
When it comes to healers - they are even in a worse spot than tanks since they gutted healing even further. I guess they didn't suck enough because an army of healers were actually keeping people alive against the almighty DPS. We can't have that! So I don't really have much advice for you on playing healer other than to just accept your fate as a so-called "support" role and find other DPS to run around with and support.
Although the game does certainly seem to be heading in this direction lately, it isn't quite there yet and tanks and healers are still needed in PVP providing they can provide useful utility to a group.
Your best defence as a tank or healer (if you're not a sorc) these days is to stack health regen while having moderate resists (20k+). Keep your HOTs up and you should be able to survive just fine. If you're still having problems with the stun+burst tactic, try using the reactive set. It has been nerfed recently, but it's still good enough for tanks/healers with decent health regen. I occasionally use this on my healplar and when I'm hit with the stun and burst routine and no one is desperate for a heal/cleanse, i just let them wail on me while i sit (or lie) there regenerating resources!
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MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭
There are already single-target heals in the game, which require aiming specifically at the target you want to heal.Issue with healing is that the game has "smart" healing that essentially took away the skill aspect from being a healer. Why aim and select who you want to heal when the game does it for you in an efficient automatic method? if healing was mechanically harder and more efficient when a player is mentally focused on doing heals, we wouldnt see things like every single mag player in PvP just running and stacking rapid regen automatically on the lowest health target. If a dps player can aim at a low health enemy running around to hit them, a healer could manage aiming at a low health ally to heal them.
For example, Symbiosis and morphs, or the Warden vine.
Now, if you go into PvP, you will notice that noone ever uses these abilities, or that they are very occasionally used but only for their other effects (not for healing).
This is the case because these abilities suck - they are much less powerful than comparable multi-target heals - and that targeting the right ally to heal is an exercise in futility because the game always highlights the wrong targets at all time. (similar to how in PvE, single target ultimates tend to usually hit random rats, spiders and other critters with 1 HP for some reason)
I know, and there is half the issue there, there is no incentive to run an ability that requires aiming over an ability that automatically does it for you. Just poor game design Imo
Because aiming is not that reliable. Oh, and the factor that the heal that can be targeted will pull the healer to a location they probably do not want to go.
It is not poor game design, just different than WoW and FF. Mostly due to the fact the game is not design so one can click the screen to do everything.
Vine was not what we were discussing as an ability, whether it is viable or not. I had brought up that conal/aoe single target burst abilities like breath of life could be made into single target aimed skills.
Aiming is as reliable as the user can aim their mouse, its not hard to point at what you want to be healed. Everyone who does dps aims at the target they want to damage....it is no different. Removing this layer of player skill and having it automated by the server is poor game design Imo, feel free to disagree.Edited by MincVinyl on August 16, 2020 11:44PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
There are already single-target heals in the game, which require aiming specifically at the target you want to heal.Issue with healing is that the game has "smart" healing that essentially took away the skill aspect from being a healer. Why aim and select who you want to heal when the game does it for you in an efficient automatic method? if healing was mechanically harder and more efficient when a player is mentally focused on doing heals, we wouldnt see things like every single mag player in PvP just running and stacking rapid regen automatically on the lowest health target. If a dps player can aim at a low health enemy running around to hit them, a healer could manage aiming at a low health ally to heal them.
For example, Symbiosis and morphs, or the Warden vine.
Now, if you go into PvP, you will notice that noone ever uses these abilities, or that they are very occasionally used but only for their other effects (not for healing).
This is the case because these abilities suck - they are much less powerful than comparable multi-target heals - and that targeting the right ally to heal is an exercise in futility because the game always highlights the wrong targets at all time. (similar to how in PvE, single target ultimates tend to usually hit random rats, spiders and other critters with 1 HP for some reason)
I know, and there is half the issue there, there is no incentive to run an ability that requires aiming over an ability that automatically does it for you. Just poor game design Imo
Because aiming is not that reliable. Oh, and the factor that the heal that can be targeted will pull the healer to a location they probably do not want to go.
It is not poor game design, just different than WoW and FF. Mostly due to the fact the game is not design so one can click the screen to do everything.
Vine was not what we were discussing as an ability, whether it is viable or not. I had brought up that conal/aoe single target burst abilities like breath of life could be made into single target aimed skills.
Aiming is as reliable as the user can aim their mouse, its not hard to point at what you want to be healed. Everyone who does dps aims at the target they want to damage....it is no different. Removing this layer of player skill and having it automated by the server is poor game design Imo, feel free to disagree.
You were replying to Major who mentioned vines which is why I mentioned them.
It would be a very poor design to make BoL an aimed heal, or pretty much have players reply on aimed heals. Besides the fact that a single target BoL that had to be targeted would mean the caster could not be healed by it, there is not a reliable targeting system in ESO and that is by design and works fine.
The fact is, aiming is not as reliable as how the person can aim their mouse because the fact is other players could be in the way making it pretty difficult to heal some targets. You cannot target if you cannot get your reticle on it, even with the soft tab targeting.0 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The Healer. Again has to sacrifice so much defense and raw damage just to be able to heal for a minimal amount with the 90% heal debuff (Battle spirit+Defile). So they rely on shields to keep them alive so they can heal. Yet this again is nerfed by half in pvp leaving them vulnerable to be taken out with ease.
I know people were complaining about healer sheild stackers and near unkillable
FYI:
Battle spirit with major defile = 72% healing debuff. The modifiers are multiplicative.
(1-0.6)×(1-0.3)=0.28 healing modifier -> 72% debuff“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0