HOW TO: PvP Ranking System
Amunari
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This thread is about discussion on the the ranking system and how it should work.
Ranking is build on Match making value (MMV), Match making Rating (MMR) and Current Rating (CR) Temp Rating (TR) is the CR + MMV Inflation.
To simplify this, this i will explain the above in details before we look at some math.
A player plays games to gain rating.
After 3 consecutive wins, their mmr (win / loss ratio + Inflation Value)
For each consecutive win, the win/loss ratio is increased by 50%. So if a player has 50% Win loss ratio, the next win will grant him +25% of its current rating, equaling 75% (50% being the true mmv, but 25% being a type of "bonus"). This will continue to scale to 350% of their true mmv (win/loss) value.
Current rating is only a way to reflect where a person is on an individual level on a ladder board.
Match making rating (Or the average of the groups MMV With inflation) is the mechanic used to pair groups against each other via the queue system.
Next, We come to the acquisition of rating.
The gain/loss of points players will be matched and vetted against two variables the points they gain or lose, and if they are plus or minus a range variable.
For example, if a group is more than 200 points over or under the current rival group they will not gain or lose points. If however, they are extremely close they will gain or lose the max variable value (lets say no more then 25 points).
To make a display
<---- -200 Points
0 Point variance
greater than 200 points
>
<---- -0 points lost
25 points gained or lost
0 points gained ---->
From here we should also look at two additional mechanics i'd personally like to tack on as i have seen this work well in guild wars 2.
3 Consecutive wins grants +10 bonus points (so max of 25+10), and two consecutive losses grants +10 points and sets a player as if they were on a win streak for the next game.
This is vital for fighting toxicity and helping better players claim faster and help the sting of a loss cause less toxicity in the game while helping make up for players poor performance.
Edited by Amunari on August 14, 2020 11:59PM Ranking is build on Match making value (MMV), Match making Rating (MMR) and Current Rating (CR) Temp Rating (TR) is the CR + MMV Inflation.
To simplify this, this i will explain the above in details before we look at some math.
A player plays games to gain rating.
After 3 consecutive wins, their mmr (win / loss ratio + Inflation Value)
For each consecutive win, the win/loss ratio is increased by 50%. So if a player has 50% Win loss ratio, the next win will grant him +25% of its current rating, equaling 75% (50% being the true mmv, but 25% being a type of "bonus"). This will continue to scale to 350% of their true mmv (win/loss) value.
Current rating is only a way to reflect where a person is on an individual level on a ladder board.
Match making rating (Or the average of the groups MMV With inflation) is the mechanic used to pair groups against each other via the queue system.
Next, We come to the acquisition of rating.
The gain/loss of points players will be matched and vetted against two variables the points they gain or lose, and if they are plus or minus a range variable.
For example, if a group is more than 200 points over or under the current rival group they will not gain or lose points. If however, they are extremely close they will gain or lose the max variable value (lets say no more then 25 points).
To make a display
<---- -200 Points
0 Point variance
greater than 200 points
>
<---- -0 points lost
25 points gained or lost
0 points gained ---->
From here we should also look at two additional mechanics i'd personally like to tack on as i have seen this work well in guild wars 2.
3 Consecutive wins grants +10 bonus points (so max of 25+10), and two consecutive losses grants +10 points and sets a player as if they were on a win streak for the next game.
This is vital for fighting toxicity and helping better players claim faster and help the sting of a loss cause less toxicity in the game while helping make up for players poor performance.
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BisDasBlutGefriert✭✭✭✭✭I appreciate you spending the time to write all this down! I don't PvP enough to understand the unabridged version of the mmr system. So, thank you @Amunari !!!~There’s a positive in every negative. Sometimes the positive is harder to find than other times, but there is ALWAYS one there~0 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That seems incredibly well thought out. ZOS may want to look into that. Meanwhile, the current MMR system works like this.
1) Um, you played a match? Sure, have some points added to your MMR
2) Queued for another? Just take between 9 and 11 people and put them in a BG together. Sorry, our grouping generator only goes up to 11. We may upgrade it to 12 in a future update. If your MMR is high, wait 10+X minutes before we ignore your MMR and put you in a BG anyway.2 -
Amunari✭✭✭In wow there is a scaling system in place. Prior to three minutes in queue it will try to match the closest rating and expand out from there. After 3 minutes, the max range at which it will pick a close group (lets say with in 200 rating) will start to expand each second by X points.
This is a good way to deal with the queue and long waits. we could improve this system in eso by simply making it so that if you play against a group significantly higher (+300-400 mmr) you will never lose rating and if you win you gain twice the normal rating.1 -
Ectheliontnacil✭✭✭✭✭
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Maybe it's because I'm tired...but a couple things don't make sense to me.For each consecutive win, the win/loss ratio is increased by 50%. So if a player has 50% Win loss ratio, the next win will grant him +25% of its current rating, equaling 75% (50% being the true mmv, but 25% being a type of "bonus"). This will continue to scale to 350% of their true mmv (win/loss) value.
So you're saying that for each consecutive win, the win/loss ratio is increased by 25%? That's not true, it depends on how many matches you've played before and what your ratio was. If after 2 matches I have a 1/1 ratio and i win the next one that becomes 2/1, so a 100% increase.The gain/loss of points players will be matched and vetted against two variables the points they gain or lose, and if they are plus or minus a range variable.
For example, if a group is more than 200 points over or under the current rival group they will not gain or lose points. If however, they are extremely close they will gain or lose the max variable value (lets say no more then 25 points).
To make a display
<---- -200 Points
0 Point variance
greater than 200 points
>
<---- -0 points lost
25 points gained or lost
0 points gained ---->
I don't think I understand the above either. What variance are you talking about exactly, are you talking about it in the statistical sense?
And do suggest players who are 200 above or below the mmr rating of the others in the bg won't have their rating affected by the outcome of a match?
And what does gaining 25 points mean exactly? Like what's the max number of points you can get? Just saying 25 doesn't tell me much.0 -
Amunari✭✭✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Maybe it's because I'm tired...but a couple things don't make sense to me.For each consecutive win, the win/loss ratio is increased by 50%. So if a player has 50% Win loss ratio, the next win will grant him +25% of its current rating, equaling 75% (50% being the true mmv, but 25% being a type of "bonus"). This will continue to scale to 350% of their true mmv (win/loss) value.
So you're saying that for each consecutive win, the win/loss ratio is increased by 25%? That's not true, it depends on how many matches you've played before and what your ratio was. If after 2 matches I have a 1/1 ratio and i win the next one that becomes 2/1, so a 100% increase.The gain/loss of points players will be matched and vetted against two variables the points they gain or lose, and if they are plus or minus a range variable.
For example, if a group is more than 200 points over or under the current rival group they will not gain or lose points. If however, they are extremely close they will gain or lose the max variable value (lets say no more then 25 points).
To make a display
<---- -200 Points
0 Point variance
greater than 200 points
>
<---- -0 points lost
25 points gained or lost
0 points gained ---->
I don't think I understand the above either. What variance are you talking about exactly, are you talking about it in the statistical sense?
And do suggest players who are 200 above or below the mmr rating of the others in the bg won't have their rating affected by the outcome of a match?
And what does gaining 25 points mean exactly? Like what's the max number of points you can get? Just saying 25 doesn't tell me much.
Btw, if you missed it this is a suggestion on how to make the rating system work in eso, not how it works. This is the best system i have seen in any game and it is unmatched far excelling over others. Btw, with the exception of bonus winstreak points and comeback points (which came from guild wars 2) The rest of the system (give or take some slight value changes for example max points gained in are 32) is from world of warcraft and is a modified version of how rating is done in chess events.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In wow there is a scaling system in place. Prior to three minutes in queue it will try to match the closest rating and expand out from there. After 3 minutes, the max range at which it will pick a close group (lets say with in 200 rating) will start to expand each second by X points.
This is a good way to deal with the queue and long waits. we could improve this system in eso by simply making it so that if you play against a group significantly higher (+300-400 mmr) you will never lose rating and if you win you gain twice the normal rating.
That system already works in ESO. Game starts from searching for players with similar MMR to Yours and then expands area of searching after certain interval of time passes.
I don't think that second idea would work in practice.Edited by Juhasow on August 15, 2020 10:56AM0 -
Amunari✭✭✭In wow there is a scaling system in place. Prior to three minutes in queue it will try to match the closest rating and expand out from there. After 3 minutes, the max range at which it will pick a close group (lets say with in 200 rating) will start to expand each second by X points.
This is a good way to deal with the queue and long waits. we could improve this system in eso by simply making it so that if you play against a group significantly higher (+300-400 mmr) you will never lose rating and if you win you gain twice the normal rating.
That system already works in ESO. Game starts from searching for players with similar MMR to Yours and then expands area of searching after certain interval of time passes.
I don't think that second idea would work in practice.
The entire way the rating system works in this post is about 99% To what wow does. The only difference in what i posted and what wow does is that the cap the highest lost of points etc at 32 points.
The entire consecutive win/loss system is exactly like guild wars 2 is currently doing their rating system.
So Yes, they both work well in practice.0 -
Amunari✭✭✭SamanthaCarter wrote: »WoW is the best example to follow
When it comes to match making system, blizzard is by far on top of other games, and of all their games wow is far superior then the rest with match making systems.
Eso's current system really only had a ladder for the top few slots, the rest is just grind rank and ascend / aka play a lot. This does not breed competition and cooperation in the game which serves to further digress the validation of pvp-eccentric guilds.
In a trading sort of comparison there is competition for trader slots and the competition is carried out by who's team (aka guild) can farm the most to acquire and maintain a slot. What would the game be like with out that? The competition is good in trading, and it should be good in ladders, not just the actual matches because at the end of the day the ladder is the major driving force for excelling in rank, something akin to trophies or Olympic medals.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In wow there is a scaling system in place. Prior to three minutes in queue it will try to match the closest rating and expand out from there. After 3 minutes, the max range at which it will pick a close group (lets say with in 200 rating) will start to expand each second by X points.
This is a good way to deal with the queue and long waits. we could improve this system in eso by simply making it so that if you play against a group significantly higher (+300-400 mmr) you will never lose rating and if you win you gain twice the normal rating.
That system already works in ESO. Game starts from searching for players with similar MMR to Yours and then expands area of searching after certain interval of time passes.
I don't think that second idea would work in practice.
The entire way the rating system works in this post is about 99% To what wow does. The only difference in what i posted and what wow does is that the cap the highest lost of points etc at 32 points.
The entire consecutive win/loss system is exactly like guild wars 2 is currently doing their rating system.
So Yes, they both work well in practice.
Comparing ESO to WoW and trying to copy-paste blizzard solutions is pointless. You sound like matchmakling in blizzard games work because ingenuity of Blizzard but reality is that their solutions works in their games partially because of PvP population there , population that is much higher then in ESO. Things that work in WoW or even GW2 will not necceseraly work in ESO. best example is SWTOR which had basicallyt WoW quening system yet for ranked matches You still had to wait in sometimes hours long queues. And long queues were one of the reasons group quening was removed from BG's. Avoiding long queues seems to be number one priority for ZoS when it comes to BG's and since BG population is not high enough they cannot use every solution that works in different games while keeping queue times fast enough and matches balanced enough.Edited by Juhasow on August 15, 2020 8:20PM0 -
Amunari✭✭✭In wow there is a scaling system in place. Prior to three minutes in queue it will try to match the closest rating and expand out from there. After 3 minutes, the max range at which it will pick a close group (lets say with in 200 rating) will start to expand each second by X points.
This is a good way to deal with the queue and long waits. we could improve this system in eso by simply making it so that if you play against a group significantly higher (+300-400 mmr) you will never lose rating and if you win you gain twice the normal rating.
That system already works in ESO. Game starts from searching for players with similar MMR to Yours and then expands area of searching after certain interval of time passes.
I don't think that second idea would work in practice.
The entire way the rating system works in this post is about 99% To what wow does. The only difference in what i posted and what wow does is that the cap the highest lost of points etc at 32 points.
The entire consecutive win/loss system is exactly like guild wars 2 is currently doing their rating system.
So Yes, they both work well in practice.
Comparing ESO to WoW and trying to copy-paste blizzard solutions is pointless. You sound like matchmakling in blizzard games work because ingenuity of Blizzard but reality is that their solutions works in their games partially because of PvP population there , population that is much higher then in ESO. Things that work in WoW or even GW2 will not necceseraly work in ESO. best example is SWTOR which had basicallyt WoW quening system yet for ranked matches You still had to wait in sometimes hours long queues. And long queues were one of the reasons group quening was removed from BG's. Avoiding long queues seems to be number one priority for ZoS when it comes to BG's and since BG population is not high enough they cannot use every solution that works in different games while keeping queue times fast enough and matches balanced enough.
No one copy pasted anything. In regards to the population rates of wow, your mistaken eso actually has more pvpers at the moment because of their choice to force people to pve to be able to be competitive at pvp. That choice caused a large population drop that are pvp-eccentric.
In regards to queue times that is a problem of bad design choices. Queue times are not an argument to stop group ques. Its the same amount of people going in and does not matter. If anything guilds quing together will incentive's people to pvp, and result in higher rating of queuing into pvp.
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In wow there is a scaling system in place. Prior to three minutes in queue it will try to match the closest rating and expand out from there. After 3 minutes, the max range at which it will pick a close group (lets say with in 200 rating) will start to expand each second by X points.
This is a good way to deal with the queue and long waits. we could improve this system in eso by simply making it so that if you play against a group significantly higher (+300-400 mmr) you will never lose rating and if you win you gain twice the normal rating.
That system already works in ESO. Game starts from searching for players with similar MMR to Yours and then expands area of searching after certain interval of time passes.
I don't think that second idea would work in practice.
The entire way the rating system works in this post is about 99% To what wow does. The only difference in what i posted and what wow does is that the cap the highest lost of points etc at 32 points.
The entire consecutive win/loss system is exactly like guild wars 2 is currently doing their rating system.
So Yes, they both work well in practice.
Comparing ESO to WoW and trying to copy-paste blizzard solutions is pointless. You sound like matchmakling in blizzard games work because ingenuity of Blizzard but reality is that their solutions works in their games partially because of PvP population there , population that is much higher then in ESO. Things that work in WoW or even GW2 will not necceseraly work in ESO. best example is SWTOR which had basicallyt WoW quening system yet for ranked matches You still had to wait in sometimes hours long queues. And long queues were one of the reasons group quening was removed from BG's. Avoiding long queues seems to be number one priority for ZoS when it comes to BG's and since BG population is not high enough they cannot use every solution that works in different games while keeping queue times fast enough and matches balanced enough.
No one copy pasted anything. In regards to the population rates of wow, your mistaken eso actually has more pvpers at the moment because of their choice to force people to pve to be able to be competitive at pvp. That choice caused a large population drop that are pvp-eccentric.
In regards to queue times that is a problem of bad design choices. Queue times are not an argument to stop group ques. Its the same amount of people going in and does not matter. If anything guilds quing together will incentive's people to pvp, and result in higher rating of queuing into pvp.
Even if WoW PvP population would drop 10 , 20 , 50 times still it would be possibly higher then BG population in ESO. ESO BG population was always very low. WoW may force people to play PvE but in ESO PvE is preferable playstyle for overwhelming majority of playerbase. You can just see sites that track achievements for consoles and You'll see how low Pv P population in ESO is percentage wise. Based on those websites only around 10-15% players in ESO gained more then 14k AP and these are stats measured since 2015. You can do the math what does it mean. So no ESO PvP population is not higher then in WoW.
You're not the one to decide what is and what isn't good argument to make certain decision in game development. Developers are. They've decided they want faster queues as one of their top priorities. And it worked well for them because ever since they removed group queue , quening times are faster and there is visibly more people playing BG's. They're not dedicated players and most of them just joins to get dailies done but still now they want to play more then they wanted before and amount of those people is higher then amount of people touched with group queue removal. It sucks for many players that they're no longer able to queue with friends but from developer point of view it was good decision because it brought benefits they wanted which are faster queues and more people playing BG's.Edited by Juhasow on August 16, 2020 10:20AM0
