Redguard's racials need a revamp

WARchief10K · August 2020

I dunno about you guys, but I've never been in a situation where Redguard shined over other races.

It's kinda crappy you know?

They are in this weird situation cause if you really wanted the regen stam on hit still Imperial seems like a cooler choice. Then the raw stam is found on other races...they don't have anything good enough to roll Redguard.

Martial training is alright but still unless you're going strictly weapon skill heavy (which I feel wouldn't be too fun I guess for a tank?)

Thoughts?

LuxLunae · August 2020

I called for changes almost a year ago... nothing changed...

EDIT: Here is one of the many posts I made about it...you may disagree though.. lol

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/514127/why-is-dk-so-fun-to-play/p1

an expert from it

"Redguard is a trash race....DO NOT USE IT....Lest you make the same mistakes i did....COST REDUCTION IS JUST A SHELL NAME TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE ITS COOL... TRUST ME..."

Another post I said this...Stamina wise at least...

"All of what a redguard can do with their reduction with 1700 stamina recov and stamina hit back, can be the equivalent of having 2500 stamina recov on any other race..."

I can't say much on the magica side but, stamina weapon abilities are already cheap....

10% of 1000 is only 100 so you would use 900 stam instead of athousand...

now as a non redguard I just need that 2500 stam recov and that is an afterthought...

That's why I now understand any reduction is a nerf to the class/set/whatever because recov is always better.

WildRaptorX · August 2020

Redguard should be in between sustain and damage, or between sustain and some resistance like poison etc. Currently Redguard doesn’t have great passives unlike other races - orc.

LuxLunae · August 2020

The good news is that anything you make on a redguard stamplar will be far better in pvp...

I had redguard build that stayed at 90% stamina no matter what I did.The problem was that it didn't have that burst damage needed to finish off the person and since it didnt have the strenght for burst...it didnt have the strenght for defense...but that could be combination...

So what I did was give it to my other classes/ races and it just made it so much easier...

So Now I use the redguard templar as the known weakest combination and build far better builds for my other classes/races.

never falling under 90% stamina....worthless all of it...

Oh and in PVE DPS was bad as well... at that point I had like 100% stam..but like i said dps was trash...

I had like 4.3k weapon damage and about 45% crit maybe 50%...but my stam was only 30k... so... I used lord warden to keep my defenses up in the circle with the templar circle...

I'll be honest, I could roll dodge and break free for ages..the problem was the servers...and that's why I scrapped the build...but like i said it didn't even give me pve damage (I might have had a bad rotation who knows)

That build was suppose to be my crowning achevement the F U to zos for giving redguard such a stupid passive... but then The servers always lagged...

100% stam... Smashing Space bar as my break free... and nothing would happen...
Roll dodging and dying and upon death seeing the words Dodge appear next to my corpse....

So I did what everybody else did...never roll or break free in pvp... walk around rocks... use heavy armor and let them stun/ immove me ...

Now I am slowly removing myself from stamina recov dependence...I might have made something just now...a build that was from a throwpack of another.. and it seeps to be ok...but its random..

It's pretty good on stamplar redguard...it might be the ultimate set for my playstyle.. going into U27?

Ratzkifal · August 2020

In PvE Redguards (and Bosmer) are bad because sustain is abundant thanks to group support item sets and synergies, making their main strength redundant. On the other hand an extra 258 weapon damage always results in more dps and as long as you don't have sustain issues it will always pull ahead and be more valuable.

In PvP sustaining is harder and it's easy to run out of stamina which makes Redguards and Bosmer more viable than they are in PvE. I did some math on how they compare in an older thread on the topic and came to the conclusion that Redguard is better than Bosmer in noCP PvP (like Battlegrounds), on a build that's using at least two weapon skills (one being a spammable) or a weapon that isn't a battleaxe/greatsword/maul (because of the stamina recovery boosting passive on kills and minor endurance).

So Redguards are objectively the best stamsorcs and snipe spammers if we only look at sustain.

Since you mentioned them specifically, Imperials are nowhere near having as good of a stamina sustain as Bosmer or Redguard but they are considerably tankier and have the best hybrid sustain.

LuxLunae · August 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

In PvE Redguards (and Bosmer) are bad because sustain is abundant thanks to group support item sets and synergies, making their main strength redundant. On the other hand an extra 258 weapon damage always results in more dps and as long as you don't have sustain issues it will always pull ahead and be more valuable.

In PvP sustaining is harder and it's easy to run out of stamina which makes Redguards and Bosmer more viable than they are in PvE. I did some math on how they compare in an older thread on the topic and came to the conclusion that Redguard is better than Bosmer in noCP PvP (like Battlegrounds), on a build that's using at least two weapon skills (one being a spammable) or a weapon that isn't a battleaxe/greatsword/maul (because of the stamina recovery boosting passive on kills and minor endurance).

So Redguards are objectively the best stamsorcs and snipe spammers if we only look at sustain.

Since you mentioned them specifically, Imperials are nowhere near having as good of a stamina sustain as Bosmer or Redguard but they are considerably tankier and have the best hybrid sustain.

Yes but like i said, redguard sustain with 1700 stam regen can be out done with any class with 2500 stam regen....for me, I notice no difference.

Ratzkifal · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

In PvE Redguards (and Bosmer) are bad because sustain is abundant thanks to group support item sets and synergies, making their main strength redundant. On the other hand an extra 258 weapon damage always results in more dps and as long as you don't have sustain issues it will always pull ahead and be more valuable.

In PvP sustaining is harder and it's easy to run out of stamina which makes Redguards and Bosmer more viable than they are in PvE. I did some math on how they compare in an older thread on the topic and came to the conclusion that Redguard is better than Bosmer in noCP PvP (like Battlegrounds), on a build that's using at least two weapon skills (one being a spammable) or a weapon that isn't a battleaxe/greatsword/maul (because of the stamina recovery boosting passive on kills and minor endurance).

So Redguards are objectively the best stamsorcs and snipe spammers if we only look at sustain.

Since you mentioned them specifically, Imperials are nowhere near having as good of a stamina sustain as Bosmer or Redguard but they are considerably tankier and have the best hybrid sustain.

Yes but like i said, redguard sustain with 1700 stam regen can be out done with any class with 2500 stam regen....for me, I notice no difference.

That's a considerable extra investment just to out-do the Redguard at 1700. That 800 stam recovery difference is around 6 item set pieces worth of power. What the other races need to put into stam sustain to match them, Redguards can invest into more damage through damage glyphs or taking the warrior or shadow mundus or a bi- or tri-stat food.
Also 2500 stam recovery does nothing when you are sprinting or blocking because these actions put your stamina recovery at zero, but this doesn't apply to the Redguard passive since it's not recovery.
Which begs the question who is actually better at sprinting in combat between Orcs and Redguards...

XxCaLxX · August 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

In PvE Redguards (and Bosmer) are bad because sustain is abundant thanks to group support item sets and synergies, making their main strength redundant. On the other hand an extra 258 weapon damage always results in more dps and as long as you don't have sustain issues it will always pull ahead and be more valuable.

In PvP sustaining is harder and it's easy to run out of stamina which makes Redguards and Bosmer more viable than they are in PvE. I did some math on how they compare in an older thread on the topic and came to the conclusion that Redguard is better than Bosmer in noCP PvP (like Battlegrounds), on a build that's using at least two weapon skills (one being a spammable) or a weapon that isn't a battleaxe/greatsword/maul (because of the stamina recovery boosting passive on kills and minor endurance).

So Redguards are objectively the best stamsorcs and snipe spammers if we only look at sustain.

Since you mentioned them specifically, Imperials are nowhere near having as good of a stamina sustain as Bosmer or Redguard but they are considerably tankier and have the best hybrid sustain.

Yes but like i said, redguard sustain with 1700 stam regen can be out done with any class with 2500 stam regen....for me, I notice no difference.

That's a considerable extra investment just to out-do the Redguard at 1700. That 800 stam recovery difference is around 6 item set pieces worth of power. What the other races need to put into stam sustain to match them, Redguards can invest into more damage through damage glyphs or taking the warrior or shadow mundus or a bi- or tri-stat food.
Also 2500 stam recovery does nothing when you are sprinting or blocking because these actions put your stamina recovery at zero, but this doesn't apply to the Redguard passive since it's not recovery.
Which begs the question who is actually better at sprinting in combat between Orcs and Redguards...

Excellent point!

LuxLunae · August 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

In PvE Redguards (and Bosmer) are bad because sustain is abundant thanks to group support item sets and synergies, making their main strength redundant. On the other hand an extra 258 weapon damage always results in more dps and as long as you don't have sustain issues it will always pull ahead and be more valuable.

In PvP sustaining is harder and it's easy to run out of stamina which makes Redguards and Bosmer more viable than they are in PvE. I did some math on how they compare in an older thread on the topic and came to the conclusion that Redguard is better than Bosmer in noCP PvP (like Battlegrounds), on a build that's using at least two weapon skills (one being a spammable) or a weapon that isn't a battleaxe/greatsword/maul (because of the stamina recovery boosting passive on kills and minor endurance).

So Redguards are objectively the best stamsorcs and snipe spammers if we only look at sustain.

Since you mentioned them specifically, Imperials are nowhere near having as good of a stamina sustain as Bosmer or Redguard but they are considerably tankier and have the best hybrid sustain.

Yes but like i said, redguard sustain with 1700 stam regen can be out done with any class with 2500 stam regen....for me, I notice no difference.

That's a considerable extra investment just to out-do the Redguard at 1700. That 800 stam recovery difference is around 6 item set pieces worth of power. What the other races need to put into stam sustain to match them, Redguards can invest into more damage through damage glyphs or taking the warrior or shadow mundus or a bi- or tri-stat food.
Also 2500 stam recovery does nothing when you are sprinting or blocking because these actions put your stamina recovery at zero, but this doesn't apply to the Redguard passive since it's not recovery.
Which begs the question who is actually better at sprinting in combat between Orcs and Redguards...

If you are sprinting and blocking you are not attacking so all types of sustain is worthless at that point.

Also, I should note I was comparing Stam DK other race vs Stamina templar....

on the DK I have like 1600 stam but green dragon blood + 2h gives me around 2500. So I can invest more into WD.

unlike my stamplar redguard which only gets up to 1700 because I NEED to invest into WD.

For the record I've been slowly changing my playstyle to not care for sustain anymore. Like I said, I had like 90% stam in my stam bar at all times no matter how much times I broke free or used skills.

I've been able to get by with 1300 as of now and I am slowly investing into other things.

I am not sure if I said this here but, any build I make on my stamina templar redguard will be far better on another class/race....

So the fact that one BG i dropped 20 people (the highest i ever did ) and it being independent from the templar class, means it's going to be my go to in U27.

WARchief10K · August 2020

Call me crazy but maybe they should be the first class to get 3000 base stamina and be the "stam expert" in that way?

Even still I'd most likely roll an Imperial or Orc or something else but that at least should perform nicely and gives them something cool?

Edit: I mean just increasing from 2000 -> 3000 and all the same other racials to clarify.

Playboy_Shrek · August 2020

they should give redguard 3000 stamina. since they really get no damage at all from their racial. and like you said, the 8% reduction isn't nearly as good as the 7% breton gets on all magicka, not just weapon skills

Imo. give redguard 3000 stamina. and make the 8->12%. but make it also work on block and bash. so 12% reduction on weapon skills block and bash.

I agree it just not great.

honey_badger82 · August 2020

All the races need a change in passives. There should be 2 per race that "define" the race. Then there should be 3 chosen by player from the categories of: max mag/stam/health (I am all for 2k H+, 2k M or 2k S), recovery type (flat 258 mag/ or stam whichever is highest, direct recovery like redguard for whichever RSS is highest and red diamond style one) and damage (258 to highest or 129 to both). Each of the ones chosen by the character would have 3 levels each (9 skill points) and the racial defining ones free and increasing at level intervals.

This would make each race equally playable and allow players to ultimately play the race THEY WANT with 0 handicap instead of being forced into playing an orc if you want to have superior DPS when you absolutely don't want to play an orc.

This is just my opinion and I think this because your "character" is not the average elf, nord, breton etc. You are not cut from the same cloth as the atypical specimen of your race. You are a great hero in the game and should stand out from the crowd. There is an orc in one of the starter areas that is supposed to fight a sea monster but instead throws his sword and runs away while you deal with it. Would this guy really have "unflinching rage"? Probably not as he is not the typical orc just on the opposite spectrum of what your character is on.