PVP still unfair to staff wielding Magblades.

exeeter702 · August 2020

If you think a magblade along the lines of blobs druid build somehow falls into the "why bother playing magblade at that point" catagory mindset, then frankly you need to reaccess what magblade is collectively, how they have performed in pvp historically and what archetype the class is capable of being played as by design.

EmEm_Oh · August 2020

I have managed to get crits from stealth with a staff. Does not occur all the time, however. You have to really set it up.

mav1234 · August 2020

I don't want to take away from anything that has been highlighted as problems with the class.

But I also wanted to note that there are some incredible magblades out there, like Trix: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl6hbe-rIj_0e-ojseA6VcA

AhSeLYaG · August 2020

Mav1234 ;i get your point. But give that guy a sorcerer that video wont last more than 2 minutes😁to take him kill all.

SRASinister · August 2020

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

I have managed to get crits from stealth with a staff. Does not occur all the time, however. You have to really set it up.

You cloak right before the projectile hits to get get crits on a staff. I learned the hard way back when elegant synergized well with heavy attacks

SRASinister · August 2020

mav1234 wrote: »

I don't want to take away from anything that has been highlighted as problems with the class.

But I also wanted to note that there are some incredible magblades out there, like Trix: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl6hbe-rIj_0e-ojseA6VcA

Yeah even zDan has some pretty good magblade clips. Though like someone else said give them a different class to play with and they will excel even more such as with a magden or magsorc. The few that can make it work are just really good players in general that still have to struggle to get a kill on the class vs. getting easier 1vxs on different characters. It being harder for beginners or even average players to play the class without procsets is just telling in it's own way.

Infectious1X · August 2020

[snip]

I do believe you though when you say these NBs are “incredibly tanky” with their 700 rapid regen ticks and 600 DC ticks. Super huge. Only thing though is that tanking and los’ing aren’t the same thing. You aren’t “tanky” just because you can run 5+ people with los using major expedition, the occasional roll, and shade teleport.

I don’t deny that there are a few good magblades out there, but don’t pretend they are in a good place just because a few players can perform decently with them. With their playstyle, they’d perform far greater on something else, such as a magsorc. These same players even admit NB is not in a strong place! They can post a few clips or vids of them pwning noobs, but that doesn’t prove anything. I could also claim I’m a “1vXer” because I face tanked 3-4 unskilled players at once and won. Naturally though you claim you know plenty of these “godlike” players, yet “refuse” to name them and then claim there are no yt vids of whatever build they’re supposedly demolishing with.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

LadyLethalla · August 2020

This post fits perfectly what I'd like to ask for advice on.

My main was a Redguard stamblade but a while back I changed her to a Breton magblade, which is much more fun in PVE. I have done hours and hours of PVP; gotten Empress (on a DK in the lowbie campaign), had a prior Emp run that failed and have now gotten my main to rank 20.

I want to get my main to Grand Overlord, but... the only time I can kill people is if they're already low health. I'm not good at burst (bad reflexes + lag) and just can't survive more than two hits max unless I can cloak away. Yes, I do suck at PVP but I feel like this just makes it harder... I know it's probably never going to happen but I do wish there was an option for class change.

Should I respec her to stamblade -and if so, what race? Wait & see what the next patch brings? Keep her as a magblade and, idk, hope I can get a bit better or at the least, plug along over the next 6 years in the knowledge that I'll eventually get there?

Kadoin · August 2020

Infectious1X wrote: »

[snip]

I do believe you though when you say these NBs are “incredibly tanky” with their 700 rapid regen ticks and 600 DC ticks. Super huge. Only thing though is that tanking and los’ing aren’t the same thing. You aren’t “tanky” just because you can run 5+ people with los using major expedition, the occasional roll, and shade teleport.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Seriously doubt the bold. My NB in light armor has 4x that amount on a tick of radiating mutagen.

Unfadingsilence · August 2020

Nah bro I love my mag nb 😘

https://youtu.be/gj5Pm0w4p5k

JayKwellen · August 2020

Kadoin wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

[snip]

I do believe you though when you say these NBs are “incredibly tanky” with their 700 rapid regen ticks and 600 DC ticks. Super huge. Only thing though is that tanking and los’ing aren’t the same thing. You aren’t “tanky” just because you can run 5+ people with los using major expedition, the occasional roll, and shade teleport.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Seriously doubt the bold. My NB in light armor has 4x that amount on a tick of radiating mutagen.

So you get 2800 regen non-crits in PvP? Is this regularly or only when you every buff imaginable on yourself?

fred4 · August 2020

Here's where I'm at with my magblade. I agree that the class is weak for the reasons already outlined. Nevertheless it remains a fun class for me to play solo. I think it's decent with Caluurion - not that that's necessarily the only option - yet of course the first clip was only made possible by those being weak players. For the sake of balance, the second clip shows what happens when you get caught out by good players, although if you can explain to me how my Fear didn't seem to stun the necro, that would be nice (out of range, I guess).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR0M7hlpFXk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h42t7I10Q-o

Heresyall · August 2020

Destro staff magnb is okish but some of the useless skills could deserve some love. (refreshing path , sap essence, crippling grasp , shrewd offering , veil of blade...)

ScruffyWhiskers · August 2020

fred4 wrote: »

although if you can explain to me how my Fear didn't seem to stun the necro, that would be nice (out of range, I guess).

Hey Fred!

I heard the Soul Harvest sound. That cast time on it for the animation then let the necro get out of range and it failed to go off. This happens to me all the time. The fear looked well within range. The cast time on Soul Harvest is game breaking for magblades especially since a lot of players are very fast nowadays. Add some lag in and you are going to get this same situation all the time. Same goes for trying to land a Concealed Weapon stun on the move.

fred4 · August 2020

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

although if you can explain to me how my Fear didn't seem to stun the necro, that would be nice (out of range, I guess).

Hey Fred!

I heard the Soul Harvest sound. That cast time on it for the animation then let the necro get out of range and it failed to go off. This happens to me all the time. The fear looked well within range. The cast time on Soul Harvest is game breaking for magblades especially since a lot of players are very fast nowadays. Add some lag in and you are going to get this same situation all the time. Same goes for trying to land a Concealed Weapon stun on the move.

I hadn't even noticed SH not landing. Well spotted. I kept my ultimate. It's frustrating when your burst does nothing. Given that SH was out of range as far as the server was concerned, then probably Fear also. I think I have better success strafing players, intead of running behind them. The speed ring makes it possible. I really miss it when I don't have that on. You're not in combat before the attack, so you get the full 45%. In the final analysis that ring is better than Snow Treaders.

Caluurion went off, but that necro was also in a buff cycle. He cast Rally right afterwards, which he was probably going to do anyway. It's good to have an explanation as to why he never dropped below 90% health, other than "it's a necro".

Yeah, this is actually why I hate the cast time. I haven't really complained about it. It's not that it gives people time to dodge. I'm not sure how much that is even true. The moving out of range is the issue. I suppose you could counteract that with better positioning.

nublife01 · August 2020

Snowgoons wrote: »

Someone needs to stop ignoring this and give staff Magblades more choices in spec.

Stamblades are performing well, enjoying the not having to stealth for stun mechanics, magblades with staves are left wondering WTF, especially when depending on light destro attacks that are easily reflected and avoided.

Every other mag class has a direct damage skill from range that cannot be reflected.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is some bs that is going on over half a decade now @ZOS

[snip] i literally have power leveled a second nightblade to be a magblade because of how busted magblade will be next patch. staff wielding magblade is viable next patch if not overpowered given the massive buff to torugs pact. next patch run amber plasm torugs pact master inferno front bar and brp resto staff back bar. it will be very very strong. that or run caluurion's legacy instead of amber plasm so you can 1shot people on caluurion proc. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

SneaK · August 2020

Magblade is stupid tanky with good damage and healing, you’ve lost your mind.

Langeston · August 2020

fred4 wrote: »

Here's where I'm at with my magblade. I agree that the class is weak for the reasons already outlined. Nevertheless it remains a fun class for me to play solo. I think it's decent with Caluurion - not that that's necessarily the only option - yet of course the first clip was only made possible by those being weak players. For the sake of balance, the second clip shows what happens when you get caught out by good players, although if you can explain to me how my Fear didn't seem to stun the necro, that would be nice (out of range, I guess).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR0M7hlpFXk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h42t7I10Q-o

Dam, fred — dat regen tho!

Your back bar is identical to how mine was before I started using Shade. Personally, I think it's one of two BIS back bars for a Shadowy Disguise magblade.

You may want to consider spending a week or two with Shade — I think it would be hugely beneficial to your playstyle. It has a steep learning curve relative to other skills in the game so it might be rough at first, but it's totally worth the effort IMO. What I did was swap out Siphoning Attacks for Shadow Image, and Barrier for Soul Tether/Siphon so could I keep the 8% magicka, but Barrier may work for you as well. My sustain suffers a bit, but the survivability (and sheer fun) makes it more than worth it IMO.

nublife01 wrote: »

[snip] i literally have power leveled a second nightblade to be a magblade because of how busted magblade will be next patch. staff wielding magblade is viable next patch if not overpowered given the massive buff to torugs pact. next patch run amber plasm torugs pact master inferno front bar and brp resto staff back bar. it will be very very strong. that or run caluurion's legacy instead of amber plasm so you can 1shot people on caluurion proc. [snip]

No offense man, but everything I've seen you say about magblades gives me the impression that you don't really know much about the spec yet. It's definitely clear that you've never played it in a high MMR BG for any extended period of time (likely not at all, seeing as you just got done leveling it) and right now nearly all of your opinions on the spec come off as purely theoretical. All of this is fine, but you really shouldn't be telling people they need to "learn to play" it until you know the class a bit better.

Some things you might find worth considering:

As far as the class itself:

Magblade burst is a good bit weaker than stamblade burst (for reasons I can go into if you'd like.) Magblades may become [slightly] more viable next patch, but they won't even be close to "busted" or "overpowered." There's potential for more damage & healing, but the loss of 10% mitigation is going to hurt. Personally, I think the Merciless change will be a wash at best for PVP. The Master Assassin change will likely be a nerf for many Shadowy Disguise magblades, but it's definitely a buff for Dark Cloak magblades (for me it will be a bit of a nerf.) I don't expect to see much of a change in magblade viability with regard to high MMR BGs, however open world may be a different story. In any case, I don't expect it will be particularly earth shattering, but we'll have to wait and see.

As for your set recommendations:

They're good, but not great. Definitely not BIS. (Although if you want a proc set, Caluurion may be BIS on a magblade, depending on your use case.)

Torug's is a great set and it is getting a buff, but I don't know that I'd call it "massive." The difference in the amount of damage your enchantment will do is about 250 with Battle Spirit, but you're also losing SD which means all of your skills and healing will be lessened a bit. The 1487 Armor you get instead of the SD might be nice for some, personally I'm not super excited about it — however that is purely subjective.

Torug's Live vs PTS:

Live:

PTS:

Amber Plasm is a great set, but off the top of my head I can think of probably 6 or 7 5pc sets or 2/3pc set combos that work better on a magblade. Especially next patch.

As far as Caluurion: it's certainly getting a buff, but I'm not a huge fan of the fact that magblades are almost pigeonholed into using it in order to get burst that's comparable to other classes. The way I see it, every class should be equally viable using straight up stat sets, and if that's not he case (as it is with magblade for the most part) then there is something fundamentally wrong with the class.

When I rolled my first magblade I actually felt the same way that you do right now: it felt OP while I was leveling it and in low/mid MMR BGs. However, after playing the class for a little over a year now, I've become well aware of it's limitations and my perspective has changed quite a bit. Pretty much everyone I know that has tried the class has had the same experience: they're super excited about it in the beginning, but after a week or two they find themselves back on their other toons because the other classes just do more while requiring less effort. As it stands now, I think magblade is in need of a rework moreso than any other class in the game.

TL;DR: While your experience on a stamblade means that you'll pick up magblade quicker than players that haven't played the class before, and you may indeed be better than many players, you really should give it some time before you start telling people that have been playing it for years (or even months) that they don't know what they're talking about. If you think stamblades need buffed (as your posts indicate) then it's extremely likely you'll feel the same way about magblades (probably moreso) after you know and understand the spec better, and have the opportunity to see how it performs in various scenarios.

Regards

fred4 · August 2020

Langeston wrote: »

You may want to consider spending a week or two with Shade — I think it would be hugely beneficial to your playstyle. It has a steep learning curve relative to other skills in the game so it might be rough at first, but it's totally worth the effort IMO. What I did was swap out Siphoning Attacks for Shadow Image, and Barrier for Soul Tether/Siphon so could I keep the 8% magicka, but Barrier may work for you as well. My sustain suffers a bit, but the survivability (and sheer fun) makes it more than worth it IMO.

I ran the shade for a short time recently. I still don't like it. As you know (and can see) I switched Lotus Fan out for Elemental Weapon. This was a very worthwhile - you might even say necessary - change to increase burst, but also one that slows you down. You miss opportunities, because you no longer have the gap closer and because you spend time winding up Elemental Weapon. In terms of burst:

Elemental Weapon + Soul Harvest + Caluurion at point blank range > Lotus Fan + Soul Harvest + Caluurion at point blank range > Elemental Weapon + Swallow Soul at range (at least with my build)

That's fair enough. Every class gives up a timing advantage for greater burst from stacked skills. I don't mind spending the extra GCD for burst, but - and I know this is going to sound strange - I find Shadow Image bogs me down and makes me feel less responsive for a much less clear advantage. You can cast it speculatively all the time, but that's quite a hit on sustain for someone who perma-cloaks, like me. If I cast it only as needed, e.g. as I'm going in for attack, it slows me down. For example, if I want to gank someone at a door in IC, by the time I'm ready with Shadow Image and Elemental Weapon, they've gone through the door. So perhaps don't do it in that case, but you get the idea.

People have also just become faster overall. I think more of them are quietly running the Wild Hunt ring than any other mythic, the whole hullabaloo about Malacath notwithstanding. I see some mag DKs running around really fast, when they're not in combat. As a ganker I start off with +45% speed yourself. This means I'm out of range of the shade really easily.

In terms of build, I went back to Bright-Throat's just now, which gave me the max magicka and sustain to switch back to Hissmir Fisheye Rye for the heck of it. High stamina regen fixes one of the big problems with magicka classes and is another factor that makes Shadow Image less necessary. Having Barrier on the back bar and 6x light armor gives me the magicka sustain I want, even with the Mage mundus. I don't have a monster set, but I don't really miss Zaan nor Balorgh. This setup freed up a jewelry enchant, which I switched to a potion duration extension one after the video. Contrary to what it says, those enchants prolong potion effects by 4.6 seconds, not 3.6. It brings Immovability to 15s, up from 10.4, and Detection to 20s. Freedom, baby!

fred4 · August 2020

Langeston wrote: »

Torug's is a great set and it is getting a buff, but I don't know that I'd call it "massive.

Yeah, this one and the reference to Kristofer ESO made me laugh. Kristofer's buildcraft is IMO questionable. For example, is Slimecraw BIS for everything or is he just using it habitually? He's just a great player who makes anything work.

Kristofer has been using Torug's Pact on and off for years. I tried it on magblade before Caluurion existed. It's not in the same league, at least not on a melee build. This was at a time when we still had full power enchants on dual-wield, staves didn't count for two slots and DW magblades were a thing. It gave you a real advantage in proc frequency, before we had Infused weapons. Today those advantages are gone. Dual-wield enchants are nerfed, staves count for two slots and the Infused weapon trait makes enchants proc every two seconds anyway. IMO Torug's Pact died when the Infused trait was introduced, because it's proc frequency component was rendered irrelevant. The buff from 30% to 45% seems belatedly designed to make up for that. It might make the set viable again, but I doubt it will be OP.

HowlKimchi · August 2020

IMO it’s run caluurion or dont run a magblade