People in trial guilds need to chill.

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2020

RogueShark wrote: »

So yes, taking away a player's opportunity for independent and creative character design in the name of unnecessary performance expectation is rather selfish of the trial lead making such demands to wear specific gear and run specific skills.

There is a problem with this mentality. You made more blanket statements in the rest of your post, of course: the whole 'they take things way too seriously' and that they ALL expect every single person to perform at the top capacity. That's false. If you're trying to get into a Godslayer score pushing run, then yeah, they WILL expect you to be performing very highly and conforming to the best meta to achieve the goal. But you go into that KNOWING this. No one is forcing anyone to play in any guild that has requirements. Why should 11 other people carry the one person who doesn't think they should have to contribute as much as they can to the group?

Going back to the portion of your post that I quoted, it is not everyone else's job or obligation to ensure that you (not you specifically, just a general 'you') have fun. If you join a guild that has requirements and then pitch a fit that they don't exempt you from the rules, how is that particular guild the ones being selfish?

I don't play top meta, myself. I'm typically one of only two, if not the only, stam in my usual groups. Not even a necro, a stamsorc. And I often like to use double DW. If my raid lead asks me to put on a specific skill for the benefit of the team, I do it. Because we're all here to achieve the same thing (achievements, hardmodes, etc). I don't think so little of everyone else I am running the content with to decide I'm 'above' helping the group in any way I can.

Edit:

I want to clarify that no one way to play is right or wrong, and that people just need to find their own groups that fit their favored playstyle. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to follow a 'meta' or not wanting to be told what to do in a trial environment. Where it becomes silly is when people start going off and insulting others for enjoying different playstyles, and I see a lot of it often targeted at people who do tend to run more coordinated trials. Because they like efficiency, they must have no life; that's unfair, petty, and just kind of childish to insult folks for not playing the way you like to. It's a game. Have fun.

You might see a lot of it targeted towards top end trial groups because of comments like the one above yours suggesting anyone off meta just wants a carry and not pull their own weight, or derogatory terms like "casual" and "roleplayer" thrown at non meta players who couldn't possibly care less about leader oars.

You're right. Play how you want, and if you've paid attention to any of my posts through this topics, you'll see that I've said multiple times that there is a place for leaderboards / Godslayers / achievements / speed runs, etc and that meta is appropriate and necessary there.

But I do have a problem with the top end trial crowd constantly trying to push off leaderboard standards on non-leaderboard vet groups and insinuating that those who don't want leaderboards shouldn't be in vet content groups or don't want to pull their weight and just want carries.

I have said many times that I have 0 problems building my characters to function in a team environment and enjoy playing support roles to help the group. I do have a problem with being told that there are only 1 or 2 specific sets that cater to dps that qualify as appropriate group support, and that anything else makes me a "selfish" tank who is purposefully making things harder on the group and not being a team player because Alkosh isn't one of my sets.

So the negative attitude that you are perceiving definitely cuts both ways, I've been dealing with the brunt of it my entire time playing this game

Xebov · August 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

Well, I disagree.

I don't think of it as a sport and I never will.

You miss the important part here. You have 12 players with a common goal that have to work together. Which makes it equal to what you have in sports as well.
You can join any type of sports team. Some like to play it casually and dont realy want to compete. Some want to play it more seriously and also play cometitions. Depending on what kind of team you join you have to do more or less to meet the teams goals.
Vet trials are exactly the same. You have a team with goals. Some groups like it casually, some take it more seriously. Depending on your group you can expect and reach different goals.
The problem is that some ppl think they can just play super casual but at the same time easily reach the goals from super serious groups. While this works for some groups it doesnt work for all of them. Thats something ppl have to understand.

Zanderscotxub17_ESO · August 2020

I dont know if there are any causual trial guilds I have not found one. Most are elites. I was lucky to find by chance a wonderful powerhouse of a trading guild that runs trials every Friday and now because everyone comfortable started running vet trials. No parse no gear examine just chill people getting together to run some trials. The best part is we have not failed once and it's because the mechanics were all explained by a nice women who volunteers to host it for the guild.

I believe the op needs to find a chill guild that runs trials. Not a trial guild that runs trial. There is a huge difference.

ForzaRammer · August 2020

If you play on pc why would you intentionally put urself in a disadvantage by not running addons?

You are not on console

PrimusNephilim · August 2020

If a guild is that toxic, just leave or start your own

WuffyCerulei · August 2020

It’s understandable to not want to have to run certain addons, but said addons also improve QoL in trials. They tell you certain mechanics are happening, etc. For pugging stuff and casual trial running, you’re fine. But it won’t be fine if you decide to take end-game raiding on PC more serious and end up dying to the same 3 mechanics over and over again because you refuse to run an addon.
I speak from experience pretty much being the right-hand man for a raiding guild. And hearing the raid lead almost lose their mind after so many buggers. Like I said, it’s fine if you don’t want to use addons, parse on dummies, etc., if you just casually raid. However, more serious raid groups need you to be aware of mechanics, and as a dps, how much damage you can pull. Various bosses do indeed need to be burned faster than others. And various bosses need you to be mechanically aware. I wouldn’t start screaming that serious trial guilds aren’t happy with you because you’re actively refusing to improve your game and whatnot.

pod88kk · August 2020

SpiderKnight wrote: »

This is why I have not touched a trial ......

Aaaaaand that's where you lost me.

How can you talk about paint all trial players with the same brush?

My trial group is full of the nicest people I've ever met from all around the world working TOGETHER as a unit for the last 3 years to complete content and I have never been happier playing this game.

colossalvoids · August 2020

But I do have a problem with the top end trial crowd constantly trying to push off leaderboard standards on non-leaderboard vet groups and insinuating that those who don't want leaderboards shouldn't be in vet content groups or don't want to pull their weight and just want carries.

That's not how it works. You won't see 99% of them on forums, they probably can't care less what you're doing ingame also.

The thing is most progression groups WANT that standards to apply, as no one wants to be that one guild progressing trials over and over again not getting better, not going for scores ever and watching others getting trifecta titles while themselves overusing word "fun" to describe that they just can't progress to that level without changing attitude at least. There are a lot of guilds like that, being in many, no one wants to prolong stagnation just because. It's also way easier to sort out people with requirements like that (some just have em for show/scare and not really stand that close to them), ones who don't want to make any progress/sacrifice won't contact even which saves a lot of time going through applications and testing everyone.

mairwen85 · August 2020

Aznarb wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

It’s understandable to not want to have to run certain addons, but said addons also improve QoL in trials. They tell you certain mechanics are happening, etc. For pugging stuff and casual trial running, you’re fine. But it won’t be fine if you decide to take end-game raiding on PC more serious and end up dying to the same 3 mechanics over and over again because you refuse to run an addon.
I speak from experience pretty much being the right-hand man for a raiding guild. And hearing the raid lead almost lose their mind after so many buggers. Like I said, it’s fine if you don’t want to use addons, parse on dummies, etc., if you just casually raid. However, more serious raid groups need you to be aware of mechanics, and as a dps, how much damage you can pull. Various bosses do indeed need to be burned faster than others. And various bosses need you to be mechanically aware. I wouldn’t start screaming that serious trial guilds aren’t happy with you because you’re actively refusing to improve your game and whatnot.

the game already tells you when said mechanics are happening. If you need an add on to tell you what the game is already telling you, I have to wonder if those players are actually as top quality as they think they are

There a problem with using tools that are at your disposal to make your gameplay easier and less of a brain aneurysm?

There a problem with needing an add-on to play the game for you, and not play it yourself?

Yup, 100% this. How can you call you a "good" player when you need an add-on to do the hard work for you so you can just focus on mashing button in order ?
That the big reason I've 0 respect for "good" PC player, they don't merit anything while using these add-on. Their just assisted.
Console player in other hand have all my respect, they build their way w/o cheesing.

I play both on console and PC. Console players don't build their way w/o cheesing, they replicate what they see on PC because it's tried, tested and proven on PC. I agree that console players are at a disadvantage without add-ons, and that, yes, that does make their achievements a teeny bit shinier to achieve the same without them, but in getting there, every raid team I've been in on console follows suit with PC raid groups, they watch videos, study mechanics, have expectations and requirements, and build accordingly. You having 0 respect for the people that the people you do have respect for are emulating is a weird stance to take, but, sure, you do you...

Aznarb wrote: »

I would never feel I improve if I was using these trash add-on. Dunno why they're not banned when it nothing more than a cheat that told you what to do. It just beyond me.

The same information is available to console players via combat tips and cues, it's just that people who author addons have much nicer ideas on how to present that information in a more useful manner. ZOS could probably take good notes on them, but refuses to. Your anger and sour grapes are misplaced in this statement--the UI and design team at ZOS have sold us short on both PC and console, but the difference is that on PC the community has the ability to improve it. Calling a person's volunteered time and effort in creating something for the benefit of a community (without remuneration) trash is disrespectful to say the least. I guess you feel the same about content creators who provide guides, strategies and build advice?

Recent · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I was literally bullied from like 2 trial guilds that i got invited to because I didn't want to specifically use the items they wanted or codes/notifier, am not sure why is it a requirement. why are average guilds expecting people to gear up and get ready like they are beating world records and speedrun records?. like, can we chill for a moment here. I cleared vSS as MT a while ago at cp 390 and I had to pretend I had notifier to get in and people said I did pretty good. and it was a pug lol.

I get where you're coming from.....you probably just need to vent your frustration. I'm sure you know you can move on and try out other guilds...you don't need people to give you a solution right? There are many guilds that don't insist on addons but if players are struggling cos they are missing a useful addon for a trial then it holds back the team. I've seen the implications of players not running raid notifier ...it was obvious. The trial leader kept insisting players download it and pointed out several times when it was useful.. Some addons are no brainers right? I hate anyone telling me what to do especially in a game...i'm my own person but then i also enjoy team work so I do believe in respecting the team leader as long as they are respectful of others then they have my total respect. I don't tolerate trial leaders that berate team mates.

FangOfTheTwoMoons · August 2020

[snip]

I didnt know the addons excute the mechanics for you. Even with addons people still struggle to complete content. By your logic, I can go find a bunch of people and go complete vMoL because the add-ons will carry them. We all know that's not true, people can barely get past the Twins. If add-ons were truly such a crutch then we'd be playing in a utopia. No one would struggle with anything and PUG'in would be a dream.

The fact is people still need to be able to mechanically pull this stuff off. That goes for physically being able to preform at the highest level, whether that's performing your rotation properly, proper positioning, keeping track of debuffs/buffs (which console has), and generally having good awareness.

[snip]

[edited to remove quoted content and baiting]

Geekgirl · August 2020

I have 810 CP points but up until now I have only focused on mostly solo PVE stuff.

I have read through most of these comments, but not all, so if this was covered, I apologize.

I think part of the shock non-BiS players get when trying to join up with guild who are already in the process of progressing, is that we are totally not used to hearing, "Yeah, you really shouldn't wear that" when it comes to clearing content, because, if you have mostly focused on PVE stuff, you will hear CONSTANTLY that you can wear anything, can use whatever skills because PVE is "LOLz easy mode."

And... well, it is.

Having someone you don't know well start pulling apart your gear choices (and skill choices) when you've been used to face rolling through content can feel... pushy. That's not to say that trial leads and guild leads don't know what they're talking about. It's more that we've gone through most of the game being told "be what you want, use what you want, it doesn't matter" and then suddenly not only does it matter, but folks get excluded, yelled at, kicked and sometimes mocked for what they're using/wearing/morphed.

Here's my stupid question:

Are there any dungeons that are challenging enough that when interviewing a potential recruit to a trial guild (assuming recruit is brand new to scheduled trial runs) you can run it with them with DPS meters so that not only can you see what they're pulling for DPS/heals, but also can use it to show/explain exactly why xxx gear is better than xxx or why this morph is better than that?

Kind of a trial for trials?

Some people will cling to the "But I know I can do it like this if you give me a chance!" I am one of those people. ::facepalm:: I admit. Sometimes I have to *experience* a thing to understand it.

Sanguinor2 · August 2020

Geekgirl wrote: »

I have 810 CP points but up until now I have only focused on mostly solo PVE stuff.

I have read through most of these comments, but not all, so if this was covered, I apologize.

I think part of the shock non-BiS players get when trying to join up with guild who are already in the process of progressing, is that we are totally not used to hearing, "Yeah, you really shouldn't wear that" when it comes to clearing content, because, if you have mostly focused on PVE stuff, you will hear CONSTANTLY that you can wear anything, can use whatever skills because PVE is "LOLz easy mode."

And... well, it is.

Having someone you don't know well start pulling apart your gear choices (and skill choices) when you've been used to face rolling through content can feel... pushy. That's not to say that trial leads and guild leads don't know what they're talking about. It's more that we've gone through most of the game being told "be what you want, use what you want, it doesn't matter" and then suddenly not only does it matter, but folks get excluded, yelled at, kicked and sometimes mocked for what they're using/wearing/morphed.

Here's my stupid question:

Are there any dungeons that are challenging enough that when interviewing a potential recruit to a trial guild (assuming recruit is brand new to scheduled trial runs) you can run it with them with DPS meters so that not only can you see what they're pulling for DPS/heals, but also can use it to show/explain exactly why xxx gear is better than xxx or why this morph is better than that?

Kind of a trial for trials?

Some people will cling to the "But I know I can do it like this if you give me a chance!" I am one of those people. ::facepalm:: I admit. Sometimes I have to *experience* a thing to understand it.

Many guilds will do tryout runs with potential newcomers where you can run with them in a raid setting.

witchdoctor · August 2020

@Geekgirl

You ask an interesting question. Sadly, I think you would find few people who would want to have to 'prove' to you the maths.

That said!

You can do it yourself by doing a parse on a dummy in your gear and comparing it to the parses you find posted online of people in meta gear/setups.

It sounds to me like a good, casual, normal, learner-friendly, trial-minded guild would be a right start for you. They absolutely do exist!

CP5 · August 2020

Geekgirl wrote: »

I have 810 CP points but up until now I have only focused on mostly solo PVE stuff.

I have read through most of these comments, but not all, so if this was covered, I apologize.

I think part of the shock non-BiS players get when trying to join up with guild who are already in the process of progressing, is that we are totally not used to hearing, "Yeah, you really shouldn't wear that" when it comes to clearing content, because, if you have mostly focused on PVE stuff, you will hear CONSTANTLY that you can wear anything, can use whatever skills because PVE is "LOLz easy mode."

And... well, it is.

Having someone you don't know well start pulling apart your gear choices (and skill choices) when you've been used to face rolling through content can feel... pushy. That's not to say that trial leads and guild leads don't know what they're talking about. It's more that we've gone through most of the game being told "be what you want, use what you want, it doesn't matter" and then suddenly not only does it matter, but folks get excluded, yelled at, kicked and sometimes mocked for what they're using/wearing/morphed.

Here's my stupid question:

Are there any dungeons that are challenging enough that when interviewing a potential recruit to a trial guild (assuming recruit is brand new to scheduled trial runs) you can run it with them with DPS meters so that not only can you see what they're pulling for DPS/heals, but also can use it to show/explain exactly why xxx gear is better than xxx or why this morph is better than that?

Kind of a trial for trials?

Some people will cling to the "But I know I can do it like this if you give me a chance!" I am one of those people. ::facepalm:: I admit. Sometimes I have to *experience* a thing to understand it.

I actually got invited to my first trial guild by being the healer fill for a group of 3 who were already in it when we went into vFH and did hard mode with no issues. Given how smoothly it went there was little concern about gear, which at the time was garbage. Shifting to trials though also included the fact that by supporting 8 dps and not 2 that choices that helped the whole group are much stronger so regardless of which dungeon you do there will be that change of perspective but harder dungeons can easily show if someone has what it takes to approach harder content than what is the norm.

Geekgirl · August 2020

witchdoctor wrote: »

It sounds to me like a good, casual, normal, learner-friendly, trial-minded guild would be a right start for you. They absolutely do exist!

Truth? I am too skittish to join any trial guilds, I keep soft hoping one of the guilds I am in will morph into one accidentally. Haha.

But! I have zero doubt that there are some great people and seriously awesome guilds out there. Knowing what I know of our community, there's pretty much a good fit for everyone.

AND! I also am pretty confident that anyone who is looking to really learn about their class and BiS specifically for trial runs can probably find someone very willing to mentor them -- guild mate or not.

I get a lot of help even asking in zone chat:

All you experienced players? We SO appreciate your helpful whispers when one of us asks a silly gear/class/skill-related question in zone.

Happy gaming folks!

mairwen85 · August 2020

Geekgirl wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

It sounds to me like a good, casual, normal, learner-friendly, trial-minded guild would be a right start for you. They absolutely do exist!

Truth? I am too skittish to join any trial guilds, I keep soft hoping one of the guilds I am in will morph into one accidentally. Haha.

But! I have zero doubt that there are some great people and seriously awesome guilds out there. Knowing what I know of our community, there's pretty much a good fit for everyone.

AND! I also am pretty confident that anyone who is looking to really learn about their class and BiS specifically for trial runs can probably find someone very willing to mentor them -- guild mate or not.

I get a lot of help even asking in zone chat:

All you experienced players? We SO appreciate your helpful whispers when one of us asks a silly gear/class/skill-related question in zone.

Happy gaming folks!

Doesn't have to be a trial guild. There are many social guilds that do normal trials and veteran trials with a more casual-friendly mindset. These are great places to cut your teeth.

Joy_Division · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I was literally bullied from like 2 trial guilds that i got invited to because I didn't want to specifically use the items they wanted or codes/notifier, am not sure why is it a requirement. why are average guilds expecting people to gear up and get ready like they are beating world records and speedrun records?. like, can we chill for a moment here. I cleared vSS as MT a while ago at cp 390 and I had to pretend I had notifier to get in and people said I did pretty good. and it was a pug lol.

The only two ways a group would know you arent using codes / raid notifier is

You keep dying on a mechanic
You made a public stink (or bragged) about not needing it

Both of which are reasons why a team oriented group might perfer someone else's participation over yours.

ThePedge · August 2020

The Add-Ons are notifications, they don't "play for you".

Even if - without Add-Ons - I don't see a mechanic, someone would usually call it out anyway.

Tank sees Nahvintaas Thrash animation, calls "Thrash" in voice, and everyone dodges.
Add-On displays "Thrash", everyone dodges.

It hasn't dodged for me, it just takes away the pressure from someone else and let's everyone focus more.
Hell someone usually calls it anyway even though everyone has AddOn that says it.

Astrid · August 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

No, there isn't, but there is something wrong with implying that *only* raid groups that dictate gear to the tanks have standards...

God, being asked to run Alkosh really upsets you doesn’t it?

Also to the people who are whining - imagine “not caring” about eso and it “not being real” but taking the time to sit and hound the forums and prattle on about toxicity, elitism and basically not wanting to be a team player so on and so forth.

Seems like you care to me or you wouldn’t be here, drop the act and just learn to meet requirements. If not, off you pop.

ZOS_Lunar · August 2020

Greetings!

After some review, we've removed some posts from this thread as they violated our rules on baiting. We would like to remind everyone to please keep posts civil, constructive, and keep the Community Rules in mind.

Thanks for your understanding, and have a great day.

LadyNalcarya · August 2020

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If you don't like the playstyle of those guilds, then join another one. You can even make your own guild, maybe it would help you understand why people set requirements for their groups.
Don't forget, everyone has a different idea of fun. Some people genuinely enjoy competition and trying to achieve goals together, and imo it's pretty toxic to deny them their right to do that. You cannot join a team and bend it to your wishes, it's their free time and they have the right to spend it as they want. No one is obliged to play with you or me or anyone else.

Katlefiya · August 2020

JTD wrote: »

OP made me laugh. Thank you.

Well, obviously it is not just a game for Ninja - it's his job obviously.

LadyNalcarya · August 2020

Katlefiya wrote: »

JTD wrote: »

OP made me laugh. Thank you.

Well, obviously it is not just a game for Ninja - it's his job obviously.

I dont agree with this guy, all playstyles are valid. But people saying that "it's just a game, just do whatever you want" are equally wrong. Pretty much every game has rules, and there's a lot of challenging games. ESO trials are not the pinnacle of challenge, but they have certain mechanical requirements, and that's why people set standarts for their groups.
It's not about being mean to people, they just want to be able to clear content. And the only reason why training groups might ask for more than just bare minimum is that they want to have a room for mistakes. For example, it's a known fact that you can beat vMoL (even hardmode) with 20-30k dps from each dd... But it also means that every single player must execute every single mechanic flawlessly, which is 1)not gonna happen in a training group 2)it puts much more pressure on people than asking for a bit more dps.

Playboy_Shrek · August 2020

ZOS_RachelM wrote: »

Greetings!

After some review, we've removed some posts from this thread as they violated our rules on baiting. We would like to remind everyone to please keep posts civil, constructive, and keep the Community Rules in mind.

Thanks for your understanding, and have a great day.

hey guys thanks.

CyberSkooma · August 2020

SpiderKnight wrote: »

This is why I have not touched a trial (minus the two man attempt under level 50 years ago when we didn't know what they were exactly lol). Trial guilds are filled with the most arrogant, toxic people I've ever seen in a game and/or real life, not sure how people enjoy being a programmed robot taking orders from some kid.

[snip] Many of the raid groups I've been in have been adult-only and some of them had teams consisting of 60yr+ players. It is NOT toxic for a guild to have requirements, period.

[Edited for Baiting]

kinguardian · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I was literally bullied from like 2 trial guilds that i got invited to because I didn't want to specifically use the items they wanted or codes/notifier, am not sure why is it a requirement. why are average guilds expecting people to gear up and get ready like they are beating world records and speedrun records?. like, can we chill for a moment here. I cleared vSS as MT a while ago at cp 390 and I had to pretend I had notifier to get in and people said I did pretty good. and it was a pug lol.

Hi :-)

Come join us. We are a very laid back guild and our guildmaster is fantastic. She is patient and understanding and explains all the mechanics very well.
The guild is called Wings of Wind. Hope to see you there.

SidraWillowsky · August 2020

CyberSkooma wrote: »

SpiderKnight wrote: »

This is why I have not touched a trial (minus the two man attempt under level 50 years ago when we didn't know what they were exactly lol). Trial guilds are filled with the most arrogant, toxic people I've ever seen in a game and/or real life, not sure how people enjoy being a programmed robot taking orders from some kid.

[snip] Many of the raid groups I've been in have been adult-only and some of them had teams consisting of 60yr+ players. It is NOT toxic for a guild to have requirements, period.

[Edited for Baiting]

I've either been very, very lucky in that the only toxicity I've really seen in ESO is here on the forums, occasionally in zone chat, and very, very rarely in pugs -I've joined many pug runs with established guild groups and have never had an issue with elitism or nastiness- orrrrrrr there may be a reason why this seems to "happen" to certain people.

Sometimes I wonder if people bring this on themselves with attitudes like this >.> (not you, Cyber, but the post you quoted, along with many others in this thread)

SpiderKnight · August 2020

CyberSkooma wrote: »

SpiderKnight wrote: »

This is why I have not touched a trial (minus the two man attempt under level 50 years ago when we didn't know what they were exactly lol). Trial guilds are filled with the most arrogant, toxic people I've ever seen in a game and/or real life, not sure how people enjoy being a programmed robot taking orders from some kid.

[snip] Many of the raid groups I've been in have been adult-only and some of them had teams consisting of 60yr+ players. It is NOT toxic for a guild to have requirements, period.

[Edited for Baiting]

I think you should look up the definition of arrogant and toxic. Because that's not at all what my comment is. I should have said most, and this is on ps4 at least, I wouldn't know what pc is like, but so far in my short time, I have seen very little toxicity, like rarely believe it or not, so I won't judge the guilds here. Sorry for not being clearer.

mairwen85 · August 2020

SpiderKnight wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

SpiderKnight wrote: »

This is why I have not touched a trial (minus the two man attempt under level 50 years ago when we didn't know what they were exactly lol). Trial guilds are filled with the most arrogant, toxic people I've ever seen in a game and/or real life, not sure how people enjoy being a programmed robot taking orders from some kid.

[snip] Many of the raid groups I've been in have been adult-only and some of them had teams consisting of 60yr+ players. It is NOT toxic for a guild to have requirements, period.

[Edited for Baiting]

I think you should look up the definition of arrogant and toxic. Because that's not at all what my comment is. I should have said most, and this is on ps4 at least, I wouldn't know what pc is like, but so far in my short time, I have seen very little toxicity, like rarely believe it or not, so I won't judge the guilds here. Sorry for not being clearer.

I think what CyberSkooma is referring to is the sweeping statement aspect of your comment. Even in your followup, there's that same tarred misconception being put to front.

To be fair, it isn't even most. I've encountered very few arrogant or toxic trial guilds. You get the odd individual, but rarely a 500 strong group of purely arrogant and toxic people. Progression groups can be cliquey, but in all honesty, that comes with the territory and is part of what progression is, having your central group of people you know can perform. That said, however, most guilds will have several groups at different levels, progressing at different paces.