Making everything one-shots in VetDLC punish the supports too much

Taleof2Cities · August 2020

Tammany wrote: »

First time i've seen that interesting mechanic i knew some1 gonna cry about it, here is the topic.
Damn fun to see people getting oneshoted in pugs cause they have used to faceroll traditional vet dungeons.

You’re right, @Tammany.

Vet DLC dungeons should be challenging.

I’ve seen a few tanks roll through the Depths of Malatar “Stone Watcher” adds without any issues ... though you can usually tell if a tank is going to survive at the first DoM boss.

Playboy_Shrek · August 2020

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Tammany wrote: »

First time i've seen that interesting mechanic i knew some1 gonna cry about it, here is the topic.
Damn fun to see people getting oneshoted in pugs cause they have used to faceroll traditional vet dungeons.

You’re right, @Tammany.

Vet DLC dungeons should be challenging.

I’ve seen a few tanks roll through the Depths of Malatar “Stone Watcher” adds without any issues ... though you can usually tell if a tank is going to survive at the first DoM boss.

there are more ways to make things challenging without making every god damn heavy attack a one shot. thats the cheapest laziest easiest way to make things challenging. and thats literally every DLC dungeon.

Tammany · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

there are more ways to make things challenging

Any example ?

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

thats the cheapest laziest easiest way to make things challenging.

When a truck-size minotaur charging a heavy attack right into your face oneshot looks like a logical result for me.

emilyhyoyeon · August 2020

karekiz wrote: »

In some content blocking isn't worth the risk compared to dodging even on a tank. Remember you can dodge a HA and avoid 100% of damage.

This is one of the things that really don't like. I think dodgerolling needs a bit of a rework in this area, and I think blocking should always be favored over dodgerolling for tanks to have some thematic consistency with the role. Blocking and how its damage mitigation is calculated would have to be reworked a bit too.

Maybe dodgerolling vet DLC boss heavies puts a temporary debuff on the player to discourage surviving heavies on a non-tank role, while also leaving room to be able to dodgeroll in an emergency situation at least a time or two. Or something else, idk. Overall dodgerolling boss heavies just seems cheesy to me.

A bit unrelated, I think a good example of a mechanic that highlights the usefulness of a tank's tankiness fairly is Zaan's fire beam. It's generally a coolly designed mechanic and can be managed by nontanks with extra coordination, but it's way easier on a tank.

mochizx · August 2020

Make everything one shot just discourage ppl to run dungeon with a dedicated healer, like why choose a healer when u can just take another dps to burn everything faster

robpr · August 2020

If you dont make one-shots then you would cheese dungeons with 4 dps. Things that wont oneshot tank will oneshot dds.
Without oneshots dds will just heal each other with Vigors/heal skills.
There is no point of designing interesting mechanics if group can ignore them, though there are some mechanics that are not exactly one-shots but rewards tankiness, like Lord Warden barrage, Zaan beam, Scavenging Maw bash check.

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

I don't wanna sound harsh, and maybe I am spoiled by mostly running around with fairly skilled guildies these days, but this really sounds like a "you problem".

Like yes, there are many things that can one shot you, but excluding bugs very few things should one shot you.

If you get one shot when you aren't blocking, learn to block at the right time. If you get one shot through block, learn when to roll dodge. Literally the only time I see these issues come up as a problem is if someone decided to turn an alt into a tank and we're running stuff specifically to give them practice.

If you're struggling on add pulls in something as outdated as RoM it sounds like you just need to up your game, or you support does, or both.

That said, I 100% agree that there is way too much emphasis on DPS in the game's current form. I despise the meta where tanks and healers wear sets designed to buff dps rather than to make themselves better at surviving and healing respectively.

The problem with one shot mechanics is that it literally makes your health pools pointless. As a tank, I should have at least 30k+ health, preferably 40k+ health. So say I get myself to 40k+ health, I'm also a necro so I have the Goliath form, that can get me to 70k - 80k health easy, but all of that is pointless because the one shot mechanic just scales to that and now does 95k damage. So what's even the point of the bigger health pools?

While I do agree that most of the one-shots can be avoided with roll dodges, well placed blocks, etc. it becomes less of a "welcome challenge" to see how to mitigate all that damage and more of a punishment for not having 50k+ health along with 30k+ stam for all the blocks and roll dodges that are needed, and makes health pools, mitigation CP's, and healers, all but useless.

I do agree with you on the last part tho. I too despise the "Alkosh / Yolna meta" that is really the only thing acceptable for tanks to run. There needs to be more to this game than just catering to the dd's.

josiahva · August 2020

:::shrug::: As a tank I honestly dont mind the fact that some ads can one shot you if you arent blocking, it just means you just have to be better at timing blocks. What DOES annoy me is when you are blocking with plenty of stam and a heavy attack still kills you....either the boss or ad going right through block as a glitch, or ads like the hulking werewolves in vMHK being so powerful you get one shot by their AOE....AND their heavy attacks, the only one of their special attacks you can survive as a tank in block mode is their howl/breath/cleave, and that only if you shield yourself well or get good self(or healer) heals. I mean, they are ads for god's sake...its one thing for bosses to have mechanics like that, but those hulking werewolves for instance, you HAVE to position far enough away from the boss that they dont enrage(which makes the cleave unsurvivable as well as the other 2) but at the same time, in an effort to keep the claustrophobic arena clear you have to hug the wall....but, big problem, there is furniture and garbage in the way so getting out of their AOE in time can be a problem....all the while making sure you are close enough to pull new ads when they spawn with chains or gate or whatever. For that matter later on there, Vyskosa herself in HM will one-shot you with her heavy attack through block...not bad in and of itself, but you have a lot more to worry about there than just Vyskosa and her heavy attack. Why do I have full resistances and 40k health if they make no difference anyway? I STILL have to roll dodge. I would probably be better off running the ring of the wild hunt and another speed boosting set and just run around the boss in circles.

Waffennacht · August 2020

The dungeons could be way more interesting.

Again 1-shots are just ... like lame for the most part.

El_Borracho · August 2020

I've noticed that in almost all of the new content (since Morrowind) the devs keep adding in one-shots and snares. Both are lazy mechanics. Throw in the legendary lag in places like Sunspire, Frostvault, or Moonfane and its frustrating. You end up dying because the game has chosen you to die instead of an error you made in the game.

Its not just the one-shot, because I do think there is a place for an automatic death if you don't complete a mechanic (i.e. the running in MOL). But we've got to the point trash mobs can now one shot you, like the things in Kyne Aegis and Unhallowed Grave. Its gone too far

Grandchamp1989 · August 2020

josiahva wrote: »

:::shrug::: As a tank I honestly dont mind the fact that some ads can one shot you if you arent blocking, it just means you just have to be better at timing blocks. What DOES annoy me is when you are blocking with plenty of stam and a heavy attack still kills you....either the boss or ad going right through block as a glitch, or ads like the hulking werewolves in vMHK being so powerful you get one shot by their AOE....AND their heavy attacks, the only one of their special attacks you can survive as a tank in block mode is their howl/breath/cleave, and that only if you shield yourself well or get good self(or healer) heals. I mean, they are ads for god's sake...its one thing for bosses to have mechanics like that, but those hulking werewolves for instance, you HAVE to position far enough away from the boss that they dont enrage(which makes the cleave unsurvivable as well as the other 2) but at the same time, in an effort to keep the claustrophobic arena clear you have to hug the wall....but, big problem, there is furniture and garbage in the way so getting out of their AOE in time can be a problem....all the while making sure you are close enough to pull new ads when they spawn with chains or gate or whatever. For that matter later on there, Vyskosa herself in HM will one-shot you with her heavy attack through block...not bad in and of itself, but you have a lot more to worry about there than just Vyskosa and her heavy attack. Why do I have full resistances and 40k health if they make no difference anyway? I STILL have to roll dodge. I would probably be better off running the ring of the wild hunt and another speed boosting set and just run around the boss in circles.

I've noticed this too, it's not just vMoonhunter where you'll die despite blocking.

Same goes for the fire Atronach in vWGT and the Giant in Icereach and HM icereach

You're playing a tank and you're literally running for your life lol

zvavi · August 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I've noticed this too, it's not just vMoonhunter where you'll die despite blocking.

Same goes for the fire Atronach in vWGT and the Giant in Icereach and HM icereach

You're playing a tank and you're literally running for your life lol

Don't let the adds enrage.
Blame dds for no dmg (on the atro)
Ez no need to run.

LashanW · August 2020

karekiz wrote: »

In some content blocking isn't worth the risk compared to dodging even on a tank. Remember you can dodge a HA and avoid 100% of damage.

I agree with this. Tanks shouldn't have to dodge heavies imo. But it's just too effective. Next patch I'll be rolling powerful assault + alkosh and I'd be easily avoiding most of the dmg by dodging. It'll be easy and cost very little resources thanks to medium armor passives + CP and maybe well fitted trait. But it doesn't feel like the tanking way, more like a scared rabbit.

I have no problems heavy attacks one-shotting me if I'm not blocking tho.

It'd be pretty great if ZoS can introduce some sort of parrying mechanic for tanks, which prevents heavy attacks from damaging you. Which could only be used with 1 hand weapon and shield and cost stamina (also maybe involve heavy armor skilline to make sure DDs can't use parry). Then technically it'll be like dodging, you press a button at the right time and avoid incoming heavy damage for cost of stamina. But it'd feel more of a tanking thing and you won't lose positioning.

idk · August 2020

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

jecks33 · August 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Personly I think it makes the healer useless

Former healer here. Actually me and my group have completed all vet dlc dungeons (80% with hard mode) in 3 dd + tank group. I really like the healer role but in dungeon it's clearly useless

CyberSkooma · August 2020

I'm not going to lie I'm seriously confused. I've tanked all the vDLC dungeons and I've never been upset at "one-shot" mechanics existing? Are you guys just not following mechanics or not blocking/dodging...? I am so confused. This is your job as a tank.

Dusk_Coven · August 2020

When mechanics are strong enough to require a REAL tank to hold down the block button and a REAL healer to keep them alive... people complain? Shows how dysfunctional the roles are in ESO.
And "everything one shots" is clearly an exaggeration. How about listing exactly which dungeons and which bosses?

In Secret World Legends, if you are in a dungeon rated for your gear score, even a single unit of a trash mob can 1-shot or 2-shot anyone except a tank. We have it easy here where there's no area taunt because dps isn't supposed to die from trash mobs.

Mindcr0w · August 2020

karekiz wrote: »

The problem with one shot mechanics is that it literally makes your health pools pointless. As a tank, I should have at least 30k+ health, preferably 40k+ health. So say I get myself to 40k+ health, I'm also a necro so I have the Goliath form, that can get me to 70k - 80k health easy, but all of that is pointless because the one shot mechanic just scales to that and now does 95k damage. So what's even the point of the bigger health pools?

Realistically for every one shot mechanic the tank needs to actually avoid, they will deal with 10 or more mechanics where having a big hp pool, high resists, and being specced into blocking do save them.

In higher end content the tank is quite regularly successfully blocking/surviving many attacks that would destroy healers and dd even if they blocked.

So much content can be completed with the tank doing nothing more than casting a taunt every 15 seconds and holding block that I am honestly surprised that more tanks aren't pleased that there are attacks they have to avoid just because it breaks up the monotony.

It really seems that some people look at a high hp pool and big resists and want that to save them from 100% of everything that could be thrown at them. But in a game as "active" and "action oriented" as ESO, roll dodging and otherwise avoiding certain mechanics should be a part of everyone's repertoire. Even the beefy boi tank's. And yes, keeping aggro on a mob while avoiding his heavy attack and keeping him facing away from everyone else is still protecting the party and fulfilling the role of a tank.

IMHO of course.

josiahva · August 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

When mechanics are strong enough to require a REAL tank to hold down the block button and a REAL healer to keep them alive... people complain? Shows how dysfunctional the roles are in ESO.
And "everything one shots" is clearly an exaggeration. How about listing exactly which dungeons and which bosses?

In Secret World Legends, if you are in a dungeon rated for your gear score, even a single unit of a trash mob can 1-shot or 2-shot anyone except a tank. We have it easy here where there's no area taunt because dps isn't supposed to die from trash mobs.

For boss mechanics...this is no problem, bosses one shot with crazy mechanics all the time. The problem is when ADS can one shot you through block with full resistances even when they are not enraged. It would be a-ok if they could do it if you didnt have say 35k health(or whatever other arbitrary health stat you want to assign) or if you only had 27k resistances...but if I have a tank with 40k health, 33k resistances, and a damage shields equaling 20k up and STILL am one-shot by an ad? At that, to survive I am forced to dodge...and if I am just going to be forced to dodge heavies and other attacks...why the hell am I wearing heavy armor? I might as well run medium armor and get roll dodge buffs and drop my resistances down to 25k instead. Lets compare the Stone Watchers in vDoM to the Hulking Werewolves in vMHK. The Stone Watchers CANT one-shot a tank if the tank is blocking...but they DO hit hard regardless...this is a GOOD design. If you arent blocking, you die...that is fair, if you are blocking, you live. The Hulking Werewolves on the other hand...block or not, the AoE will one-shot you...as will the heavy. This is a BAD design....you are better off speccing into medium armor since you are going to have to dodge roll anyway. If thats the way they want you to tank...that is fine too...but that medium armor tank isnt going to be able to take a hit from a Stone Watcher either...so unless its the intention of ZOS that you swap armor weights from one piece of content to the next, they really need to decide just how they want to approach tanking...either taunt and run for your life, or taunt and actually be able to hold something still.

Again, I have no problem with the boss mechanics being able to one shot anyone...my gripe is with regular ads forcing the tank to run for their lives. Its fine if these ads are enraged(that just means your group is either not following mechs or failing DPS checks, or both). Here you are, in the middle of a dungeon, trying to group up the ads with chains while blocking and you turn away from a hulking werewolf for a second to drag in some ranged ad, and bam! sucker punch in the back of the head and you are dead, the werewolf then goes on to wipe your group(though usually they have the sense to run away). As a tank you didn't do anything wrong in that scenario...you were doing your job, and not letting off block at a bad time, it was the cheap design of the ad that killed you.

karekiz · August 2020

idk wrote: »

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

Agreed. I always see people talk about mechanics being #1 priority rather than upping DPS etc <On other forums> to just turn around and say they got one shot by a mechanic and died to it which is unfair 0_0.

Let me look at it like this. If a mechanic can be healed without killing you then it can be burned.

the1andonlyskwex · August 2020

karekiz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

Agreed. I always see people talk about mechanics being #1 priority rather than upping DPS etc <On other forums> to just turn around and say they got one shot by a mechanic and died to it which is unfair 0_0.

Let me look at it like this. If a mechanic can be healed without killing you then it can be burned.

The problem, as I see it, is that a one shot mechanic makes healing and mitigation completely useless. On the other hand, a damage mechanic that takes a few second to kill someone (and may be harder to avoid that a one-shot) actually benefits from having a healer (or a tankier build otherwise).

butterrum222 · August 2020

The stamina version of the ranged taunt grants 2% extra damage done to the target, encouraging imo the use of 4 DPS in dungeons, and if the one shot mechanics are well telegraphed, then 4DPS could be the new norm in dungeons. On normal and vet it already had been for a while but when doing hard mode a traditional tank is almost always needed.

karekiz · August 2020

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

Agreed. I always see people talk about mechanics being #1 priority rather than upping DPS etc <On other forums> to just turn around and say they got one shot by a mechanic and died to it which is unfair 0_0.

Let me look at it like this. If a mechanic can be healed without killing you then it can be burned.

The problem, as I see it, is that a one shot mechanic makes healing and mitigation completely useless. On the other hand, a damage mechanic that takes a few second to kill someone (and may be harder to avoid that a one-shot) actually benefits from having a healer (or a tankier build otherwise).

Until you realize that a DPS can heal as much as a healer. Most time I roll full DPS, its not like they have 0 ways to heal themselves. Vigor, siphon, shields, Altar 100% uptime, various heal skills.

MEBengalsFan2001 · August 2020

Having tanked all Vet DLCs you don't get killed instantly from a heavy attack. It is a combination of things such as multiple heavy attacks at once hitting you, getting knocked back or stunned prior to a heavy attack removing a good portion of the defense capabilities of a tank, etc... Not running with a healer, having one of your shields drop right before the hit, etc...

Having said that it is annoying as a tank that is focused on not being kicked around to be kicked around so easily. That causes tanks to take harder hits because the tank loses the defense that blocking provides. Unfortunately it takes timing and good damage dealers to by pass some of the game mechanics that are not DPS checks. Yet every group of adds and most bosses in DLC content feels like it's a DPS check.

The problem IMO is that PVP has impacted PVE and has made it so tanks are easier to control in PVE and has made PVE harder for tanks and this seems to happen with each pass when the game is modified to make it better for PVP. This is the not the first game to experience PVP impacting PVE and it probably won't be the last.

Mettaricana · August 2020

Can agree the one shot mechanic stuff kinda invalidates half the build when you stuff extra or armor to survive better and the game just says *you're a joke to me* and kicks you in the jewels

Fur_like_snow · August 2020

It’s hilarious to me that a tank is often better off dodge rolling an attack than blocking it. It’s very dark souls minus the fat roll animation.

the1andonlyskwex · August 2020

karekiz wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

Agreed. I always see people talk about mechanics being #1 priority rather than upping DPS etc <On other forums> to just turn around and say they got one shot by a mechanic and died to it which is unfair 0_0.

Let me look at it like this. If a mechanic can be healed without killing you then it can be burned.

The problem, as I see it, is that a one shot mechanic makes healing and mitigation completely useless. On the other hand, a damage mechanic that takes a few second to kill someone (and may be harder to avoid that a one-shot) actually benefits from having a healer (or a tankier build otherwise).

Until you realize that a DPS can heal as much as a healer. Most time I roll full DPS, its not like they have 0 ways to heal themselves. Vigor, siphon, shields, Altar 100% uptime, various heal skills.

Which is just an argument that one or more of the following changes are also necessary:
1) healable (i.e. non-one-shot) damage needs to be increased
2) self healing need a to be decreased
3) heal scaling needs to be separated from damage scaling

idk · August 2020

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

Agreed. I always see people talk about mechanics being #1 priority rather than upping DPS etc <On other forums> to just turn around and say they got one shot by a mechanic and died to it which is unfair 0_0.

Let me look at it like this. If a mechanic can be healed without killing you then it can be burned.

The problem, as I see it, is that a one shot mechanic makes healing and mitigation completely useless. On the other hand, a damage mechanic that takes a few second to kill someone (and may be harder to avoid that a one-shot) actually benefits from having a healer (or a tankier build otherwise).

While I agree that the overall design of ESO does not have the constant unavoidable raid-wide damage as is found in other games and reduces the need for healers. However, that does not mean one-shot mechanics are a problem.

In any MMORPG, including ESO, I would take a player that paid attention and followed the mechanics vs better DPS. For tanks, it is an absolute requirement.

Taleof2Cities · August 2020

idk wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

Agreed. I always see people talk about mechanics being #1 priority rather than upping DPS etc <On other forums> to just turn around and say they got one shot by a mechanic and died to it which is unfair 0_0.

Let me look at it like this. If a mechanic can be healed without killing you then it can be burned.

The problem, as I see it, is that a one shot mechanic makes healing and mitigation completely useless. On the other hand, a damage mechanic that takes a few second to kill someone (and may be harder to avoid that a one-shot) actually benefits from having a healer (or a tankier build otherwise).

While I agree that the overall design of ESO does not have the constant unavoidable raid-wide damage as is found in other games and reduces the need for healers. However, that does not mean one-shot mechanics are a problem.

In any MMORPG, including ESO, I would take a player that paid attention and followed the mechanics vs better DPS. For tanks, it is an absolute requirement.

Right, @idk.

I have a more concise take on some of the opinions in this thread, though:

"How do we get dungeon clears without learning any of the mechanics?"

the1andonlyskwex · August 2020

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

idk wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

idk wrote: »

One-shot mechanics punish those who do not follow the mechanics. It has nothing to do with the role the player is in. Everyone needs to follow the mechanics or they are letting down the group.

Agreed. I always see people talk about mechanics being #1 priority rather than upping DPS etc <On other forums> to just turn around and say they got one shot by a mechanic and died to it which is unfair 0_0.

Let me look at it like this. If a mechanic can be healed without killing you then it can be burned.

The problem, as I see it, is that a one shot mechanic makes healing and mitigation completely useless. On the other hand, a damage mechanic that takes a few second to kill someone (and may be harder to avoid that a one-shot) actually benefits from having a healer (or a tankier build otherwise).

While I agree that the overall design of ESO does not have the constant unavoidable raid-wide damage as is found in other games and reduces the need for healers. However, that does not mean one-shot mechanics are a problem.

In any MMORPG, including ESO, I would take a player that paid attention and followed the mechanics vs better DPS. For tanks, it is an absolute requirement.

Right, @idk.

I have a more concise take on some of the opinions in this thread, though:

"How do we get dungeon clears without learning any of the mechanics?"

Except that's not what it is at all. There are tons of way to make dungeons challenging without relying on one shots. As-is, dungeon mechanics pretty much consist of one shots and DPS checks. I think it would be nice if there were also a few healing or mitigation (or general survivability) checks too.

Additionally, there are tons of cases where you can bypass mechanics with high DPS. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same with high HPS or great mitigation?