People in trial guilds need to chill.

mochizx · August 2020

can’t spam ur shield or vigor to complete a trial, u have to dps them down. That’s what I learned when I progress through my 1st vma run. Same applies to 12 man trials I guess.

Tigerseye · August 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

If you play a team sport and join a team, and the coach says, 'make this play when x happens', or 'focus on x player' or do a specific form of training, most people would have no issues and certainly wouldn't see a problem with complying with the request. Seems to me you don't see trials as a team game.

There are lots of chill social guilds that do trials, but even those guilds ask players to work together and complement each other's gear and skills to make it fun for all. They generally help people get what they need and often suggest assistant add-ons or even use logs to help everyone improve, on the assumption that people who do vet trials are interested in improving themselves for the benefit of the team.

By the time most people do vet DLC Trials content in even the most chill guilds, they understand they are working together to get the optimal combination and are pleased to bring their best to the game to help their team mates. It makes everything smoother, easier, quicker and as a result , more satisfying.

So it's up to you: play as a team player and the other 11 people will be chill. Play how you want, ignore what the team leader/coach wants and it will frustrate the rest of the team who won't see how meeting some pretty minimal requirements is such a deal breaker for you.

Perhaps trials just don't suit your individualistic solipsistic play style.

I think you are confusing multiplayer games for team sports.

If you play a team sport you are generally accepting a more intense, serious, rule-based, authoritarian experience, but I think it's fair to say that most people don't view multiplayer games in that way.

A few do, though, as we can see here...

A number of guilds DO approach PVE end game content as a team based sport. If you are looking for a backyard pickup game, maybe try a different guild.

My PVP guild treats raiding like a team based sport. We're upfront about it that we're not a great fit for people who don't want to work as a team or equip certain skills to support the team. Those of us who enjoy that playstyle really like it.

You say most players don't play like that, and that's true...so why not join guilds with those players? Why try to change a guild who likes that more serious, rules-based playstyle to fit your preferences?

Well, clearly, that is what I do.

But, we're not talking about me, we're talking about people who might be new to the genre and are just shocked that anyone would take a game so seriously and think it's OK to act like a dictator to a complete stranger.

Tigerseye · August 2020

Xebov wrote: »

It is team sports. You have a group with a common goal. That makes them a team. They have to work together to reach that goal. This means that everyone has to get to a certain level of performance to do so.

Well, I disagree.

I don't think of it as a sport and I never will.

It's just a game, to me...

I raided in WoW, to a fairly high level and I never once viewed it as a sport.

I did a competitive sport as a child.

It was something you had to sign up for, in real life.

It was bloody boring, monotonous and exhausting and that was just the many hours of training, let alone the competitions.

There was no real point in it, other than winning.

A game, on the other hand, is supposed to be fun.

Obviously, you don't view it that way and that is fine, but considering these games are called GAMES and not sports, most people will expect them to be more like games and not sports.

...and games are supposed to be fun and not just a complete, dictatorial, chore.

Obviously, you should do whatever makes you happy (or happily miserable!), with like-minded people and that is fine.

But, the problems come when people are acting like someone is thinking wrongly about the GAME when they don't think that way, too.

Mettaricana · August 2020

Can we get a aggro aoe one shot rampaging dummy to simulate dodging blocking and parsing see how many 92k-112k parses we get lol

daemonios · August 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

If you play a team sport and join a team, and the coach says, 'make this play when x happens', or 'focus on x player' or do a specific form of training, most people would have no issues and certainly wouldn't see a problem with complying with the request. Seems to me you don't see trials as a team game.

There are lots of chill social guilds that do trials, but even those guilds ask players to work together and complement each other's gear and skills to make it fun for all. They generally help people get what they need and often suggest assistant add-ons or even use logs to help everyone improve, on the assumption that people who do vet trials are interested in improving themselves for the benefit of the team.

By the time most people do vet DLC Trials content in even the most chill guilds, they understand they are working together to get the optimal combination and are pleased to bring their best to the game to help their team mates. It makes everything smoother, easier, quicker and as a result , more satisfying.

So it's up to you: play as a team player and the other 11 people will be chill. Play how you want, ignore what the team leader/coach wants and it will frustrate the rest of the team who won't see how meeting some pretty minimal requirements is such a deal breaker for you.

Perhaps trials just don't suit your individualistic solipsistic play style.

I think you are confusing multiplayer games for team sports.

If you play a team sport you are generally accepting a more intense, serious, rule-based, authoritarian experience, but I think it's fair to say that most people don't view multiplayer games in that way.

A few do, though, as we can see here...

A number of guilds DO approach PVE end game content as a team based sport. If you are looking for a backyard pickup game, maybe try a different guild.

My PVP guild treats raiding like a team based sport. We're upfront about it that we're not a great fit for people who don't want to work as a team or equip certain skills to support the team. Those of us who enjoy that playstyle really like it.

You say most players don't play like that, and that's true...so why not join guilds with those players? Why try to change a guild who likes that more serious, rules-based playstyle to fit your preferences?

Well, clearly, that is what I do.

But, we're not talking about me, we're talking about people who might be new to the genre and are just shocked that anyone would take a game so seriously and think it's OK to act like a dictator to a complete stranger.

Who's acting like a dictator, the people who go to the trouble of setting up a guild with rules for participating, scheduling and running events, or the lone person who feels they're entitled to ignore said rules?

FatherDelve · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I was literally bullied from like 2 trial guilds that i got invited to because I didn't want to specifically use the items they wanted or codes/notifier, am not sure why is it a requirement. why are average guilds expecting people to gear up and get ready like they are beating world records and speedrun records?. like, can we chill for a moment here. I cleared vSS as MT a while ago at cp 390 and I had to pretend I had notifier to get in and people said I did pretty good. and it was a pug lol.

You can still look for a Trial Guild that fits your needs. I know, there is this legendary quote "omg everyone should play as he wants to play", but in the moment you are starting bothering 11 other people, because you are trying to be a special snowflake, this quote is irrelevant.

Look for a guild that fits your playstyle and needs, and dont expect that everyone shares your WoW LfR Attitude.

It is ABSOLUTE legit that there are people trying to play the game competitive, and if you dont fit into that setup, you have to accept getting removed. I

Itzmichi · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I was literally bullied from like 2 trial guilds that i got invited to because I didn't want to specifically use the items they wanted or codes/notifier, am not sure why is it a requirement. why are average guilds expecting people to gear up and get ready like they are beating world records and speedrun records?. like, can we chill for a moment here. I cleared vSS as MT a while ago at cp 390 and I had to pretend I had notifier to get in and people said I did pretty good. and it was a pug lol.

good and pug is contradictory. I mean the question is if you can drive a Ferrari, why would you choose to drive a 20 years old Opel Corsa instead ma boi? - I get in on console, but wasting an opportunity on Pc is just the opposite of smart.

I mean if you have no ambition to actually get somewhat good in the game that's fair enough, but guilds are usually aiming to actually clear content, so of course the Raid Lead wants the people to have access to specific sets/classes/roles/addons.

ThePedge · August 2020

One of the more casual guilds I am in requires add-ons. They are extremely useful at teaching new players and making sure as little mistakes happen as possible.

499 people have signed up to that philosophy, if you don't then that's not the guilds issue, it's yours.

From running normal trials with beginners or progressing vSS HM, everyone is expected to have what they need to offer a better experience for themselves and the group. Don't buy into that, don't join the group.

naga. · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I was literally bullied from like 2 trial guilds that i got invited to because I didn't want to specifically use the items they wanted or codes/notifier, am not sure why is it a requirement. why are average guilds expecting people to gear up and get ready like they are beating world records and speedrun records?. like, can we chill for a moment here. I cleared vSS as MT a while ago at cp 390 and I had to pretend I had notifier to get in and people said I did pretty good. and it was a pug lol.

[snip]

Regarding addons, RN, Code's, How to Sunspire and a host of other addons, which make life simpler, are not necessary in most circumstances, because visual or acoustic cues are already present in the game to help you do mechanics. There are obviously some exceptions where they make a major difference. One example of that is Focused Aim on the Hunter Killers in vHoF. Even a somewhat incompetent group can get through that fight in around 2 minutes if people simply roll dodge Focused Aim if they're targeted by it instead of people wasting time on unnecessary interrupts.

As for gear and skills, while there's some leeway here and there if you're not trying to to do something actually difficult, going full on Xynode-style RP or coming up with your own bespoke setup, which turns out even worse than that garbage, may severely handicap any group. Look at vet Yolna for example:

You probably need DDs to average something like ~40k to get only one wave of atros before the flying phase;
While that's extremely low, it's good enough to get a comfortable clear because it makes the OT's task pretty easy since all that can yeet them is one big guy;
Now, let's say your damage doesn't even reach this joke of a threshold for whatever reason. The DDs are garbage, buffs and debuffs from supports are non-existent or your supports are wearing sets, which basically make no sense whatsoever. For example, tanks are full-on damage sponges. Another option is that healers are stacking so much healing or mitigation that they can cast 1 aoe heal and then wonder off to start a family, send their kids to uni and when they eventually comeback people will still be alive;
All of a sudden, an encounter in which the greatest challenge is not falling asleep becomes a fair amount more taxing for the OT who's now dancing with 2 or, if the group is complete trash, even more iron atros. Now you're banking on the OT to make up for others. If they can't do that, they'll die and it won't take long before the other 11 people will shift from RPing as people who can play the game to RPing as carpets.

As this shows, some level of optimisation is beneficial for every group as long as they want to complete something fairly comfortably rather than walk in and possibly end-up bashing their heads on a wall until they get sick of whatever they're doing. Obviously, you wouldn't strap one of your healers in Zen/MK if you're certain the other can't carry the healing load, but that shouldn't mean that they can run Sanctuary, Mending, any other dead set or some RP novelty item like Winter's Respite, which should not be necessary if you have at least 1 person in the group who can do a quarter of the job anyone would expect from anyone calling themselves a healer main. Information on what sets or skill setups are viable for anything from a 'safe clear' to a 'score push' is so easily available right now. If you can't work out why certain things are done in a specific way based on logs alone, there's discords where experienced players will provide you the missing answers. I'm not gonna lie, watching *** groups come up some bespoke composition, which makes things even harder for them is top comedy, especially when you can't play the game because the EU megatrashver is down again.

As people pointed out, there's plenty of different guilds out there. Clearly the two you mentioned were not your cup of tea. Some guilds are fine with never getting past vMoL twins, but as soon as the goal becomes completing more and more content, people who are really determined will start calling for greater optimisation and if that doesn't happen, they'll eventually leave. Quite likely, they'll be the people who carried the group to whatever was its previous achievement.

Don't get me wrong, explicitly or implicitly agreeing to optimise does not automatically give anyone a licence to be a complete ***, especially if they lack anything that would justify that behaviour. It's normal that the less experienced the group, the more hand holding and explaining it takes. I raid with people who already have some trifectas to their name and want more trifectas. If someone really let's me down, it's fairly acceptable for me to send them a screenshot from a log with the words 'Wtf am I looking at?' as feedback and expect them to figure out what they did wrong on their own if they don't want to worry about our next conversation starting with me saying 'I am considering replacing you'. Find a group which expectations are matched with yours, but don't play the victim if that turns out not to be the case. Nobody got anywhere doing that.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

furiouslog · August 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

Well, I disagree.

I don't think of it as a sport and I never will.

It's just a game, to me...

I raided in WoW, to a fairly high level and I never once viewed it as a sport.

{edits)

A game, on the other hand, is supposed to be fun.

Obviously, you don't view it that way and that is fine, but considering these games are called GAMES and not sports, most people will expect them to be more like games and not sports.

...and games are supposed to be fun and not just a complete, dictatorial, chore.

Obviously, you should do whatever makes you happy (or happily miserable!), with like-minded people and that is fine.

But, the problems come when people are acting like someone is thinking wrongly about the GAME when they don't think that way, too.

I found this page useful for articulating the difference between games and sports:

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/139670/difference-between-game-and-sport

As that article mentions, there is a lot of overlap. The difference comes down to how the individual player perceives the activity, which is why there is disagreement in this thread. Some guilds treat the activity like a sport (they score push, they try to get on in-game and ESOLogs leaderboards), others view it as a game (they just want to complete content because they enjoy the process of achieving that challenge).

In the latter group (the game group), there are still subsets of players who will choose to enforce gear and skill builds, because they will not be able to achieve the goals of their gaming activity if other players on the team are causing them to fail at achieving those goals in the game, and relying on tested builds and performance benchmarks saves a lot of time in going through the process of goal achievement. Saying "it's just a game" does not mitigate differences in the individual goals for people engaging in that gaming activity. The "fun" for some is in completing content. If someone on the team prevents the team from achieving that goal, then they are ruining the "fun" for the team.

No one is going to successfully convince a group of people that they should be enjoying a game in only one way, so this thread is ultimately pointless because it will not cause anyone to change their behavior or perception of what is fun. The problem is not that many trial guilds are too tightly wound, it's that the OP has not found a group of people who are like him or her, whose approach to ESO gaming is the same as the OP. I think you are saying that, but I'd put it to you that there is no "wrong" way to think about the game. There are only different ways to think about the game, and just because someone does not share your perceptions in that regard does not make them wrong, it just means you have different ways you derive enjoyment from gaming activities.

SpacemanSpiff1 · August 2020

find a more casual guild. dedicated trial groups have standards for a reason.

JTD · August 2020

OP made me laugh. Thank you.

NupidStoob · August 2020

Team game = everybody has the responsibility and is expected to contribute whatever is needed to make the group successful. Even if you are doing "fine" you can always do better and as a result might balance out others peoples mistakes hence increase the groups chances for success.

This is the plain and simple truth behind it all. If you can't commit to that you are not fit to join group play and that goes for RL as much as for gaming. Nobody likes to work with someone with that mindset. Don't waste other peoples time.

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2020

furiouslog wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Well, I disagree.

I don't think of it as a sport and I never will.

It's just a game, to me...

I raided in WoW, to a fairly high level and I never once viewed it as a sport.

{edits)

A game, on the other hand, is supposed to be fun.

Obviously, you don't view it that way and that is fine, but considering these games are called GAMES and not sports, most people will expect them to be more like games and not sports.

...and games are supposed to be fun and not just a complete, dictatorial, chore.

Obviously, you should do whatever makes you happy (or happily miserable!), with like-minded people and that is fine.

But, the problems come when people are acting like someone is thinking wrongly about the GAME when they don't think that way, too.

I found this page useful for articulating the difference between games and sports:

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/139670/difference-between-game-and-sport

As that article mentions, there is a lot of overlap. The difference comes down to how the individual player perceives the activity, which is why there is disagreement in this thread. Some guilds treat the activity like a sport (they score push, they try to get on in-game and ESOLogs leaderboards), others view it as a game (they just want to complete content because they enjoy the process of achieving that challenge).

In the latter group (the game group), there are still subsets of players who will choose to enforce gear and skill builds, because they will not be able to achieve the goals of their gaming activity if other players on the team are causing them to fail at achieving those goals in the game, and relying on tested builds and performance benchmarks saves a lot of time in going through the process of goal achievement. Saying "it's just a game" does not mitigate differences in the individual goals for people engaging in that gaming activity. The "fun" for some is in completing content. If someone on the team prevents the team from achieving that goal, then they are ruining the "fun" for the team.

No one is going to successfully convince a group of people that they should be enjoying a game in only one way, so this thread is ultimately pointless because it will not cause anyone to change their behavior or perception of what is fun. The problem is not that many trial guilds are too tightly wound, it's that the OP has not found a group of people who are like him or her, whose approach to ESO gaming is the same as the OP. I think you are saying that, but I'd put it to you that there is no "wrong" way to think about the game. There are only different ways to think about the game, and just because someone does not share your perceptions in that regard does not make them wrong, it just means you have different ways you derive enjoyment from gaming activities.

This whole thing neglects the fact that

1. Gear is not what is needed to "git gud" at this game. Gear is the "icing on the cake", so to speak, and what is needed is learning and understanding mechs. My trial group recently attempted a high level vet trial, and got wiped BAAAAAAAD. I mean boss was down to as low as 90% when we wiped. That has nothing to do with gear and everything to do with the fact that it was our group's first attempt there, we had a lot of people either new to trials period or new to *that* trial, and need to learn the mechanics. When we are wiping at 90% that's mechanics issue, not a build issue. On the flip side, I've also attempted to tank very high level vet dlc trials, where I was tanking near perfectly in definitely non-meta gear, but again the team around me was wiping due to mechanics issues. That second group still hasn't cleared the trial in weeks, and again it has nothing to do with gear but everything to do with mechanics. You learn and execute the dance, and you can do that in any reasonably designed character set up, meta or not.

2. Your entire post neglects the fact that for some of us, the failure is part of the fun. I mentioned earlier that "RP players can do normal and overland content" is an invalid rebuttal, because that content is so easy you can do it in literally any gear and half the time in your sleep. I've literally done some overland content where I can kill things simply by blocking (I use Frozen Watcher on one of my tanks and the aoe ice damage wipes out most overland mobs without needing to ever do a single skill). It gets legitimately boring to plow mindlessly through normal dungeons and trials with little to no challenge at all.

My trial group has done many vet attempts with many failures and many successes, but those failures are always equally as fun as the successes, and the failures make the successes mean that much more. Those 2 trials that I mentioned up above are going to feel amazing when we finally complete them, just as our original vet successes felt, each one having numerous failures before it as well. Yea, sure, the 3-4 hour runs that don't result in a clear can get frustrating, but you know what else those are? Educational af. I've learned far more from 3-4 hour dungeon / trial run failures than I could ever learn from a build guide or a meta set. Those 3-4 hour fail runs taught me more about how to play my character and work together as a group regardless of what gear set up I or my guild have, and regardless of our class and build composition in the group. Thise 3-4 hour fail runs have helped build group trust and group chemistry. I know my group's playstyles, they know mine, I know what capabilities they all have, strengths and weaknesses, across the board. I know areas where I can ease off a little bit because the rest of my group has it covered, and I know areas where I need to work a little bit harder because either myself or group members have a short coming or a blind spot in our styles. We have people of varying degrees of experience, ranging from grizzled trial vet who's done everything in game, down to the green newcomer who still doesn't know the ropes, and everything in between. As our trial lead says "we succeed together or we lose together but we do it together". There's no demands on gear or experience or parses or skill bars or anything else. My group knows what I run and don't run, I know what they run and don't run, and we all work together and just have fun. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we don't, but we always have fun and never make anyone feel bad if things go sideways. We all have "goals" and "objectives" and "standards" and consistently work together to make each other better, but the failures are part of the fun and we enjoy those runs too. In fact, because of our attitude, it makes us even braver and more confident to attack higher level confident because "whats the worst that can happen? We wipe?" It's not like wiping in game kills us in real life. Or deletes our accounts and removes the game from our system. We don't lose our careers and income. Literally nothing happens if you wipe and lose. Nothing at all. Which is a key difference between the "games" and "sports" comparison.

Sports works in seasonal cycles, even if you aren't a professional. If you lose, you miss out on your opportunity until the next season comes around. In many cases thats a whole calendar year. If you "lose" in vCR +3, you can come back in a couple hours. You've lost *nothing* and suffered 0 consequence outside of your gear repair bill. That's literally it.

I don't care how anyone wants to play, I really don't. I don't care if you want to try to clear vet content in voidsteel armor, or if you want to top leader boards and get every achievement and title possible, or anywhere in between. Literally any gaming style is valid, and the game offers content levels for you to try any of it. But so many people are trying to dismiss the OP's narrative of bullying, so let's be honest here.

There *are* many in the end game community that think only certain playstyles are valid (i.e. "meta"), even in content objectives that don't require it (non-leaderboard / non-title / non-achievement vet clears). There is such a stigma and divide in our community between the different camps that even Nefas made a video about it, and all the hostility that flies in both directions with terms like "elitist" and "role players" being used in a derogatory fashion. I have witnessed it first hand in another group I've rolled with, with a narcissistic raid leader who made demands on his group that he couldn't even hold himself to, blaming anyone but himself for the trial's failures, and going out of his way to publicly shame and embarrass people who he perceived were holding the group back. I don't care what your objectives are, stated or not, there is no place in this game for shaming and embarrassing players because a trial went sideways. There is no place for using derogatory terms to someone who plays differently from you. I'm already seeing the bullying in this thread with the not-so-subtle claims from people that guilds who don't enforce gear requirements "have no standards" and so on. Ive witnessed it in game where trial leaders went out of their way to publicly shame and embarrass people who were perceived to not be performing. I personally have experienced in game snide remakes made directly or indirectly about me because of my philosophy on the game. So is it really all that hard to believe that the OP was bullied from their guilds? I certainly believe it. It's a mindset that permeates gaming in general, not just ESO, and that is that people who play with aspirations other than purely full on min / max optimization and efficiency are ostracized and gate-kept out of content. This is not every top level gamer to be sure, but so many in that camp see it as their duty to gate-keep end game content for only those who have achieved full blown meta status, and not let the impurity of off-meta gaming taint their content. So yes, I 100% believe the OP's claims of bullying. The response in this thread to those claims oddly enough help prove the point.

Odovacar · August 2020

I've since been on a break from competitive endgame (its been relaxing,

) trials due to me not being able to make the roster times reliably anymore. There were no hard feelings on either side aside from some jokes about being a casual, lol.

However, the GM or raid lead for more serious ambitions have gear requirements for a reason... No disrespect to your vSS clear but once you start getting into more challenging content you'll understand. Casual trial guilds do exist, keep searching OP, good luck.

mairwen85 · August 2020

Trials are a group effort. It's 12 people working together to achieve something. Part of that is the provision of utility and support; once you get passed the basics of team co-ordination and mechanics, that really is the next step, ensuring that everything the team needs to achieve their goal is available. Gearing up and having group composition down at the start is a cleaner, less hit-and-miss route toward that end. As dps, I'll wear what I'm told and slot the skills I'm told to, same when I heal, and same for when I tank--11 other people depend on me, and I likewise on 11 others, this is true for every individual. You know the saying "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link"? That's the mentality here. Whatever your personal views, most raid groups I've played in have open discussion and are willing to swap people around to suit that goal. If you don't like it, find a guild that better fits your own views.

RogueShark · August 2020

I'll never understand people who feel it necessary to try and blanket-degrade people who run efficient trial groups.

"This isn't real life."

"I care about things that are ACTUALLY important."

"They're just no-lifers/it's all they have."

When the "sports" comparison is made, it's done so because it is a cooperative GAME, like trials are. In a trial setting, there are 11 other real human beings who have lives and obligations just like you. If you choose to deliberately handicap a group, that shows how selfish you are and how disrespectful you are of these other people's time. Every trial guild I have ever been a part of has listed their expectations and requirements up front and easy to read. There are plenty guilds out there who are more casual who don't care what you play or how; if that's your speed, find one of those. To opt to, instead, bash other playstyles because an entire guild didn't conform to your specific playstyle is rather petty.

xF1REFL1x · August 2020

I would suggest going over the guilds expectations before joining. Seems it would be easier to decide before you run with them if it's a good fit for you or not.

Jeremy · August 2020

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

I was literally bullied from like 2 trial guilds that i got invited to because I didn't want to specifically use the items they wanted or codes/notifier, am not sure why is it a requirement. why are average guilds expecting people to gear up and get ready like they are beating world records and speedrun records?. like, can we chill for a moment here. I cleared vSS as MT a while ago at cp 390 and I had to pretend I had notifier to get in and people said I did pretty good. and it was a pug lol.

This is one of many reasons this game needs to add trials to the activity finder. Because conformity in "end game" guilds is a an issue that turns up in most MMORPG games. It's a turn off, especially for casual players. It's also the reason a lot of people don't even bother with trials.

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2020

RogueShark wrote: »

I'll never understand people who feel it necessary to try and blanket-degrade people who run efficient trial groups.

"This isn't real life."

"I care about things that are ACTUALLY important."

"They're just no-lifers/it's all they have."

When the "sports" comparison is made, it's done so because it is a cooperative GAME, like trials are. In a trial setting, there are 11 other real human beings who have lives and obligations just like you. If you choose to deliberately handicap a group, that shows how selfish you are and how disrespectful you are of these other people's time. Every trial guild I have ever been a part of has listed their expectations and requirements up front and easy to read. There are plenty guilds out there who are more casual who don't care what you play or how; if that's your speed, find one of those. To opt to, instead, bash other playstyles because an entire guild didn't conform to your specific playstyle is rather petty.

Another invalid comparison to the sports world: sports teams have players of differing skill sets and skill levels. Even on the professional level. Some players are good at very specific roles, and some contribute in lesser qualities. In football, different running backs have different skill sets and are used for different purposes. Different wide receivers excel in specific areas while lacking in others. Some defensive linemen rush the passer, some are meant to just hold up blockers.

But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials.

So that's great that these trial guilds have "standards", but these trial guilds also take this thing way too seriously and have demands and expectations that are not necessary for successful completion

So yes, taking away a player's opportunity for independent and creative character design in the name of unnecessary performance expectation is rather selfish of the trial lead making such demands to wear specific gear and run specific skills.

The expectation should be "can you do the job?", NOT "you have to have x skill and y set and z add on to participate"

So yes, trial guilds "need to chill"

Casul · August 2020

My guild as some people who want to start trials. I have set some baseline requirements.

All trials have DPS requirements in order to apply.

Comms must be clear when the trial is proceeding in order to hear tank and healer call outs.

I have already had a few people question these requirements, but my justification is simple. I am not teaching people so they can scrape by with normal trial clears. I am building then up for veteran content. If they would like a more relaxed run then that can also be made, but will be posted as to avoid confusion EX. nCR FunRun.

If someone does not meet my requirements for the progression runs then they do not get it. This isn't toxic or unfair. There are 10 (not counting myself) other people who have put in the work to compete and there no excuse for the outliers to be exempt from the requirements that the rest have worked through.

SidraWillowsky · August 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

I'll never understand people who feel it necessary to try and blanket-degrade people who run efficient trial groups.

"This isn't real life."

"I care about things that are ACTUALLY important."

"They're just no-lifers/it's all they have."

When the "sports" comparison is made, it's done so because it is a cooperative GAME, like trials are. In a trial setting, there are 11 other real human beings who have lives and obligations just like you. If you choose to deliberately handicap a group, that shows how selfish you are and how disrespectful you are of these other people's time. Every trial guild I have ever been a part of has listed their expectations and requirements up front and easy to read. There are plenty guilds out there who are more casual who don't care what you play or how; if that's your speed, find one of those. To opt to, instead, bash other playstyles because an entire guild didn't conform to your specific playstyle is rather petty.

Another invalid comparison to the sports world: sports teams have players of differing skill sets and skill levels. Even on the professional level. Some players are good at very specific roles, and some contribute in lesser qualities. In football, different running backs have different skill sets and are used for different purposes. Different wide receivers excel in specific areas while lacking in others. Some defensive linemen rush the passer, some are meant to just hold up blockers.

But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials.

So that's great that these trial guilds have "standards", but these trial guilds also take this thing way too seriously and have demands and expectations that are not necessary for successful completion

So yes, taking away a player's opportunity for independent and creative character design in the name of unnecessary performance expectation is rather selfish of the trial lead making such demands to wear specific gear and run specific skills.

The expectation should be "can you do the job?", NOT "you have to have x skill and y set and z add on to participate"

So yes, trial guilds "need to chill"

How exactly is that different? Different DPS roles are good at different things- Wardens provide minor vuln; necros can provide major; stamplars give minor fracture; nightblades and magplars have their insane executes.

"But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials."

This isn't at all true and wasn't even the point of OP's post. Even Tom Brady can't walk onto the field and decide to do only what Tom Brady wants, rest of the team be damned. We are talking about the importance of working for the greater good of the group, not the expectation that everyone needs to be a DPS god.

And part of "doing the job" is being able and willing to follow orders if need be. If someone is this unwilling to work with group requirements straight out of the gate, it makes it hard to want to see if they can other wise do their "job".

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

I'll never understand people who feel it necessary to try and blanket-degrade people who run efficient trial groups.

"This isn't real life."

"I care about things that are ACTUALLY important."

"They're just no-lifers/it's all they have."

When the "sports" comparison is made, it's done so because it is a cooperative GAME, like trials are. In a trial setting, there are 11 other real human beings who have lives and obligations just like you. If you choose to deliberately handicap a group, that shows how selfish you are and how disrespectful you are of these other people's time. Every trial guild I have ever been a part of has listed their expectations and requirements up front and easy to read. There are plenty guilds out there who are more casual who don't care what you play or how; if that's your speed, find one of those. To opt to, instead, bash other playstyles because an entire guild didn't conform to your specific playstyle is rather petty.

Another invalid comparison to the sports world: sports teams have players of differing skill sets and skill levels. Even on the professional level. Some players are good at very specific roles, and some contribute in lesser qualities. In football, different running backs have different skill sets and are used for different purposes. Different wide receivers excel in specific areas while lacking in others. Some defensive linemen rush the passer, some are meant to just hold up blockers.

But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials.

So that's great that these trial guilds have "standards", but these trial guilds also take this thing way too seriously and have demands and expectations that are not necessary for successful completion

So yes, taking away a player's opportunity for independent and creative character design in the name of unnecessary performance expectation is rather selfish of the trial lead making such demands to wear specific gear and run specific skills.

The expectation should be "can you do the job?", NOT "you have to have x skill and y set and z add on to participate"

So yes, trial guilds "need to chill"

How exactly is that different? Different DPS roles are good at different things- Wardens provide minor vuln; necros can provide major; stamplars give minor fracture; nightblades and magplars have their insane executes.

"But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials."

This isn't at all true and wasn't even the point of OP's post. Even Tom Brady can't walk onto the field and decide to do only what Tom Brady wants, rest of the team be damned. We are talking about the importance of working for the greater good of the group, not the expectation that everyone needs to be a DPS god.

And part of "doing the job" is being able and willing to follow orders if need be. If someone is this unwilling to work with group requirements straight out of the gate, it makes it hard to want to see if they can other wise do their "job".

"Follow orders"

lol

It's a game. Y'all make it way more than it is.

Casul · August 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

I'll never understand people who feel it necessary to try and blanket-degrade people who run efficient trial groups.

"This isn't real life."

"I care about things that are ACTUALLY important."

"They're just no-lifers/it's all they have."

When the "sports" comparison is made, it's done so because it is a cooperative GAME, like trials are. In a trial setting, there are 11 other real human beings who have lives and obligations just like you. If you choose to deliberately handicap a group, that shows how selfish you are and how disrespectful you are of these other people's time. Every trial guild I have ever been a part of has listed their expectations and requirements up front and easy to read. There are plenty guilds out there who are more casual who don't care what you play or how; if that's your speed, find one of those. To opt to, instead, bash other playstyles because an entire guild didn't conform to your specific playstyle is rather petty.

Another invalid comparison to the sports world: sports teams have players of differing skill sets and skill levels. Even on the professional level. Some players are good at very specific roles, and some contribute in lesser qualities. In football, different running backs have different skill sets and are used for different purposes. Different wide receivers excel in specific areas while lacking in others. Some defensive linemen rush the passer, some are meant to just hold up blockers.

But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials.

So that's great that these trial guilds have "standards", but these trial guilds also take this thing way too seriously and have demands and expectations that are not necessary for successful completion

So yes, taking away a player's opportunity for independent and creative character design in the name of unnecessary performance expectation is rather selfish of the trial lead making such demands to wear specific gear and run specific skills.

The expectation should be "can you do the job?", NOT "you have to have x skill and y set and z add on to participate"

So yes, trial guilds "need to chill"

How exactly is that different? Different DPS roles are good at different things- Wardens provide minor vuln; necros can provide major; stamplars give minor fracture; nightblades and magplars have their insane executes.

"But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials."

This isn't at all true and wasn't even the point of OP's post. Even Tom Brady can't walk onto the field and decide to do only what Tom Brady wants, rest of the team be damned. We are talking about the importance of working for the greater good of the group, not the expectation that everyone needs to be a DPS god.

And part of "doing the job" is being able and willing to follow orders if need be. If someone is this unwilling to work with group requirements straight out of the gate, it makes it hard to want to see if they can other wise do their "job".

"Follow orders"

lol

It's a game. Y'all make it way more than it is.

11 other people have a goal in mind. If one person can't follow the leadership then they should be dropped. Simple as that.

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2020

BuildMan wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

I'll never understand people who feel it necessary to try and blanket-degrade people who run efficient trial groups.

"This isn't real life."

"I care about things that are ACTUALLY important."

"They're just no-lifers/it's all they have."

When the "sports" comparison is made, it's done so because it is a cooperative GAME, like trials are. In a trial setting, there are 11 other real human beings who have lives and obligations just like you. If you choose to deliberately handicap a group, that shows how selfish you are and how disrespectful you are of these other people's time. Every trial guild I have ever been a part of has listed their expectations and requirements up front and easy to read. There are plenty guilds out there who are more casual who don't care what you play or how; if that's your speed, find one of those. To opt to, instead, bash other playstyles because an entire guild didn't conform to your specific playstyle is rather petty.

Another invalid comparison to the sports world: sports teams have players of differing skill sets and skill levels. Even on the professional level. Some players are good at very specific roles, and some contribute in lesser qualities. In football, different running backs have different skill sets and are used for different purposes. Different wide receivers excel in specific areas while lacking in others. Some defensive linemen rush the passer, some are meant to just hold up blockers.

But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials.

So that's great that these trial guilds have "standards", but these trial guilds also take this thing way too seriously and have demands and expectations that are not necessary for successful completion

So yes, taking away a player's opportunity for independent and creative character design in the name of unnecessary performance expectation is rather selfish of the trial lead making such demands to wear specific gear and run specific skills.

The expectation should be "can you do the job?", NOT "you have to have x skill and y set and z add on to participate"

So yes, trial guilds "need to chill"

How exactly is that different? Different DPS roles are good at different things- Wardens provide minor vuln; necros can provide major; stamplars give minor fracture; nightblades and magplars have their insane executes.

"But in ESO, these trial groups expect every single person to be excelling at top capacity at all times and there is no room for mistakes or a drop in performance. In trials, it is expected to roll with 12 Tom Brady's, yet that is wholly unnecessary to complete trials."

This isn't at all true and wasn't even the point of OP's post. Even Tom Brady can't walk onto the field and decide to do only what Tom Brady wants, rest of the team be damned. We are talking about the importance of working for the greater good of the group, not the expectation that everyone needs to be a DPS god.

And part of "doing the job" is being able and willing to follow orders if need be. If someone is this unwilling to work with group requirements straight out of the gate, it makes it hard to want to see if they can other wise do their "job".

"Follow orders"

lol

It's a game. Y'all make it way more than it is.

11 other people have a goal in mind. If one person can't follow the leadership then they should be dropped. Simple as that.

I have been one of those 11 people held back by people who can't get mechanics down. Many times. Including by those wanna-be top end trial guilds who make demands on everyone else but can't hold themselves to their own standards, and I'm performing better in my off-meta gear than all of them are in their fully optimized min / max setups. It's frustrating when I'm sitting there doing my job effectively and efficiently and other people are preventing progress for x y z reasons. I get it.

I'd still rather roll with those people (not the power gamers) and help them learn than to just drop them. You lose literally nothing by wiping. You gain a good group member by helping them through so they can learn.

There is not a single person in my trial guild that I would ever say to drop just because they were struggling or making mistakes. Not one. I'd rather fail with a good group of people than to succeed with a group of high expectation power gamers that take the game way too seriously and yell at people and drop them.

This is a game. It's meant for fun. The second it is not done for fun anymore is the second I am out.

That is why I will never be a part of those high pressure trial guilds. There is literally nothing fun about being told how to play because everyone thinks there is *only* one way to be an effective player, all so someone else can get their max dps leaderboard score.

There is a lot of fun to be had with rolling with fun people and letting what happens happen and learning the game in the process.

furiouslog · August 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

snipped

I think you entirely missed my point. I was commenting on the difference between games and sports as applied to this issue. I'm not making a comment on meta sets or bullying. Honestly, I am not sure what you are reading into my comments or how what I wrote fed into that wall of text.

But I will say this: I agree that meta sets are not the cure all to clearing content. They are just optimized and published based on the investigations of a number of theory crafters and their experience, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

I have also experienced toxicity in the game, and hypocritical raid leadership. I just don't play with those guys, and I know that I don't have the same conception of fun in the game as they probably do.

If you perform well within the confines of your gear and abilities, any reasonable raid leader will work with you. However, if you put on a bunch of crazy sets as an experiment without broadcasting the fact, the time and effort of the other participants in the activity needs to be considered and understood. If you can't meet certain benchmarks or flexibly make tweaks to meet a particular challenge, that consumes time. Not everyone has enough free time to throw at that.

I actually co-lead a social guild, and we have standards for DPS benchmarks, but we don't dictate gear - if you meet the requirements then you understand your gear and skills well enough to optimize your performance. We do dictate gear availability for support roles, because different raids call for certain requirements that require that flexibility based on our collective experiences in clearing trials. For specific situations and add-on requirements, our raid leaders ultimately make those calls, hopefully with a robust understanding of gear, skills, and mechanics and with a clear approach to team coordination. I have also seen our raid leaders experiment with different approaches and role requirements given the trial mechanics. As a DPS, I've been given direction to use certain skills and builds in specific situations - I don't complain, I try it, and if it works, I keep it, and if it doesn't, we talk about why. If I can show that what I want do works better for the team, we do that.

If you personally like experimenting and failing, definitely have fun with that, but that is not what everyone finds fun. The team needs to be aligned on the purpose of the gaming activity. If the OP ran into the cited negative behaviors, it is useless to try to change that behavior because it is driven by a fundamental difference in the approach to the game, and possibly also by any one of a number of anti-social psychological disorders. Either way, my point is this: the solution is to move on and find people who share your values, priorities and objectives.

amm7sb14_ESO · August 2020

furiouslog wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

snipped

I think you entirely missed my point. I was commenting on the difference between games and sports as applied to this issue. I'm not making a comment on meta sets or bullying. Honestly, I am not sure what you are reading into my comments or how what I wrote fed into that wall of text.

But I will say this: I agree that meta sets are not the cure all to clearing content. They are just optimized and published based on the investigations of a number of theory crafters and their experience, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

I have also experienced toxicity in the game, and hypocritical raid leadership. I just don't play with those guys, and I know that I don't have the same conception of fun in the game as they probably do.

If you perform well within the confines of your gear and abilities, any reasonable raid leader will work with you. However, if you put on a bunch of crazy sets as an experiment without broadcasting the fact, the time and effort of the other participants in the activity needs to be considered and understood. If you can't meet certain benchmarks or flexibly make tweaks to meet a particular challenge, that consumes time. Not everyone has enough free time to throw at that.

I actually co-lead a social guild, and we have standards for DPS benchmarks, but we don't dictate gear - if you meet the requirements then you understand your gear and skills well enough to optimize your performance. We do dictate gear availability for support roles, because different raids call for certain requirements that require that flexibility based on our collective experiences in clearing trials. For specific situations and add-on requirements, our raid leaders ultimately make those calls, hopefully with a robust understanding of gear, skills, and mechanics and with a clear approach to team coordination. I have also seen our raid leaders experiment with different approaches and role requirements given the trial mechanics. As a DPS, I've been given direction to use certain skills and builds in specific situations - I don't complain, I try it, and if it works, I keep it, and if it doesn't, we talk about why. If I can show that what I want do works better for the team, we do that.

If you personally like experimenting and failing, definitely have fun with that, but that is not what everyone finds fun. The team needs to be aligned on the purpose of the gaming activity. If the OP ran into the cited negative behaviors, it is useless to try to change that behavior because it is driven by a fundamental difference in the approach to the game, and possibly also by any one of a number of anti-social psychological disorders. Either way, my point is this: the solution is to move on and find people who share your values, priorities and objectives.

I would agree with you that the group should be in alignment in terms of goals; i.e. if it's a group that wants to run experimental builds, they shouldn't be running a trial with other players that want to do a score push.

So in that regard, I agree, and my guild typically does that. "I just got <xyz set> so I want to bring my <abc class> into the trial to see how it goes" or "I just leveled my <newly lvl 50 char> and want to take it for a spin in trials" so that we are all in the know. My trial lead, who is typically the 2nd tank that I work with, knows what sets I wear to know how I am and am not supporting the group, and is aware of my "non-meta" sets that I typically run as well. He knows what skills typically aren't on my bar, either by choice or because I don't have access to them, so he can be aware of either skills that he needs to run, or skills that we might not have access to as I am running other skills for different purposes. Both he and I are aware of typically what sorts of builds other people are running, playstyles and habits of other group members, and certain things we need to be aware of so we can compensate. In response, because the group is so open to various playstyles, doesn't enforce gear or skill or parse requirements, and is open to participation and involvement from all, it makes me far more open to gathering sets and skills that I normally wouldn't have, to have them available if necessary to swap into.

But all of us have that same perspective, and we're not pushing scores or achievements or anything like that. And if we do decide to do something like that, we announce it ahead of time that we are doing a specific type of run, so that anyone who wants to participate can be prepared.

But no, I don't agree that imposing skill and set rules to try to plow through as fast as possible with maximum efficiency and making everything so rigid is fun. I've run with groups like that and it has always been a torturous experience. People can say what they want, but I adhere to those sorts of rigid guidelines at work, in bills, and in other areas of my real life. I don't need that in my gaming time too.

Nymzy · August 2020

Mettaricana wrote: »

Can we get a aggro aoe one shot rampaging dummy to simulate dodging blocking and parsing see how many 92k-112k parses we get lol

100k+ boss parses are not uncommon in raid scenarios

.

DjMuscleboy02 · August 2020

What you mean is "I want to raid but I don't want to pull my own weight or demonstrate that I can pull my own weight, I want a guild to accept me unconditionally and hope that I'm not a detriment to the group with absolutely nothing to go on other than my promise that I know what to do."

I'm sure you can find a group that will essentially provide what you're after. But getting frustrated when you won't cooperate with the group is pretty ridiculous. Personally I don't use add-ons when I raid with my core team, however I still use add-ons that are critical to raid. I don't want to hold my team back and not run a gear swapping add-on, codes combat alerts, etc that will hinder my game play just because it's what I prefer. It's group content, you either can conform to what the group chooses or simply find a group that will pull you in your little red wagon behind them.

RogueShark · August 2020

So yes, taking away a player's opportunity for independent and creative character design in the name of unnecessary performance expectation is rather selfish of the trial lead making such demands to wear specific gear and run specific skills.

There is a problem with this mentality. You made more blanket statements in the rest of your post, of course: the whole 'they take things way too seriously' and that they ALL expect every single person to perform at the top capacity. That's false. If you're trying to get into a Godslayer score pushing run, then yeah, they WILL expect you to be performing very highly and conforming to the best meta to achieve the goal. But you go into that KNOWING this. No one is forcing anyone to play in any guild that has requirements. Why should 11 other people carry the one person who doesn't think they should have to contribute as much as they can to the group?

Going back to the portion of your post that I quoted, it is not everyone else's job or obligation to ensure that you (not you specifically, just a general 'you') have fun. If you join a guild that has requirements and then pitch a fit that they don't exempt you from the rules, how is that particular guild the ones being selfish?

I don't play top meta, myself. I'm typically one of only two, if not the only, stam in my usual groups. Not even a necro, a stamsorc. And I often like to use double DW. If my raid lead asks me to put on a specific skill for the benefit of the team, I do it. Because we're all here to achieve the same thing (achievements, hardmodes, etc). I don't think so little of everyone else I am running the content with to decide I'm 'above' helping the group in any way I can.

Edit:

I want to clarify that no one way to play is right or wrong, and that people just need to find their own groups that fit their favored playstyle. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to follow a 'meta' or not wanting to be told what to do in a trial environment. Where it becomes silly is when people start going off and insulting others for enjoying different playstyles, and I see a lot of it often targeted at people who do tend to run more coordinated trials. Because they like efficiency, they must have no life; that's unfair, petty, and just kind of childish to insult folks for not playing the way you like to. It's a game. Have fun.