Why has this become DPSO?

LuxLunae · August 2020

I once played a 4 v 4 3rd person shooter game called syphon filter logans shadow back in 2006. As you ranked up, you got stronger weapons. If you started new, it was truly an unbalanced bloodbath for a newer player going into it. However, over time, as once got acquainted with the mechanics and weapons at their disposal, the game showed it's amazing depth. They had things like tripwires, bouncing betty mines, grenades, knives, emp. smoke grenades, etc. So me and my bro, over time used these beginner weapons and started to get better and better. It wasn't just about getting the headshot. You could win just by using the tripwires strategically, make them follow you to their deaths lol. (if they shot one, it could trigger another that they didn't see lol) If not that you could stealth and wait for them and use a knife from behind to kill them. If all my data was wiped out, I could easily get back into the game using the starter weapons and still be effective.

This, unfortunately simply cannot happen in ESO. You MUST have certain types of sets to be in pvp/pve.
The reason why? is because ESO promotes the DPS meter. Both in pvp and pve it's about burst damage/DPS. This makes the game more like CoD rather than Syphon Filter. Who ever blows their damage out faster and harder is the winner. There is no strategy, no tricks, no skill. Just out damage people. Just like in CoD how its whoever gets the headshot first, a twich reaction. This applies to the zergs, who ever get's their ultis out before the server gives out are automatically the winners and these ball groups thing they are so good its laughable.

I am not sure where I am going with this but something has to change with this "I got high dps/burst damage therefor I win/am good" mentality/system.

The removal of sustain will just encourage burst damage builds even more throwing it closer to CoD type gameplay. You would think, they would say "let me manage my resources" but really they will do what they do now. Let the other guy use his resources pop potion clevar alchemist, vigor/other heal, heavy attack and burst them to death.

I am not sure I said this before but I realized, if you can kill your opponent fast, why care for resources? This is what causes sustain to mean nothing in this game.

Ectheliontnacil · August 2020

Literally no decent player will get bursted down immediately upon starting a 1v1. You don't know eso pvp very well if you compare it to shooter games. If you can't sustain you are dead in pvp.

redshirt_49 · August 2020

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Literally no decent player will get 1 bursted down immediately upon starting a 1v1. You don't know eso pvp very well if you compare it to shooter games. If you can't sustain you are dead in pvp.

This. Also, no strategy or skill? My man, if you try to only win every encounter by out-damaging the other guy you're doing it wrong. CC is a thing. Use it.

Playboy_Shrek · August 2020

idk anything about pvp/pve, but most mechs in PVE are basically dps checks, and ignoreable mechs are ignored by killing it before it happens. so yes, tanks/healers are at the mercy of the dps and have to use sets that make them do more damage

Athyrium93 · August 2020

PvP in ESO is easy to get into, I mean get to level 10 and jump in a BG, it has way more to do with skill than gear in the under 50 queue... I say that as someone that is awful at PVP, it's still totally doable and fun.

Xargas13 · August 2020

This was mentioned before by me and other posters on PvP forums. And I completely agree, before the patch the use of defensives was something, now they barely count, just farm a bunch of proc sets and you are a good player.... I was really liking this game before, now it's crap. Also I will give you a hint, you can actually by pass GCD by spamming so called combo by hitting different abilities fast, and that will give you the burst of bunch of abilities in less then 3 seconds. Apparently it is a thing, and when mentioned on ESO forums, people say it's desync or lag or whatever. One poster was kind enough to share that "skill" and now it all made sense. Since I never experienced lag in the game despite countless posts mentioning it, and I was really wondering when this happened:

I was in BG and was dueling countless times one dude, he was close to killing me each time, but I won every round, then after some loosing rounds on his part, he came at me and was able to down me in seconds, I was like okay, maybe I got the famous desync, but then he did it again and again, and I knew something was fishy. I posted about it on the forums and got replies about desync and lag. Other players also mentioned countless abilities at the same time and they got the same replies. Until one broke the sacred oath and told how to do it. And the "best" part is, ZOS doesn't care, because players enjoy that implemented hack.... If PvP was a joke before, now it's a joke you can die laughing to....

FatherDelve · August 2020

Usually people complaining about "DPS" Meters are those at the bottom of the DPS Meter. There are two jobs you have as DPS, playing your mechanic properly, and doing DPS. First point cant be ignored in 90% of the content, when you have enough DPS.

This permanent complaining about competitive situations in ESO is getting boring. There are many many guilds that are free from any kind of pressure, dps meters etc. But you have to accept that you maybe will clear vAA, vHRC and some other easy stuff.

The moment you step up in content, people will running ESO Logs and look at your performance. And that is understandable, because 11 other people maybe ripping their butts off to deliver a good performance, and then you have this one person that believes that "DPS isnt everything".

Lazarus_Rising · August 2020

Xargas13 wrote: »

This was mentioned before by me and other posters on PvP forums. And I completely agree, before the patch the use of defensives was something, now they barely count, just farm a bunch of proc sets and you are a good player.... I was really liking this game before, now it's crap. Also I will give you a hint, you can actually by pass GCD by spamming so called combo by hitting different abilities fast, and that will give you the burst of bunch of abilities in less then 3 seconds. Apparently it is a thing, and when mentioned on ESO forums, people say it's desync or lag or whatever. One poster was kind enough to share that "skill" and now it all made sense. Since I never experienced lag in the game despite countless posts mentioning it, and I was really wondering when this happened:

I was in BG and was dueling countless times one dude, he was close to killing me each time, but I won every round, then after some loosing rounds on his part, he came at me and was able to down me in seconds, I was like okay, maybe I got the famous desync, but then he did it again and again, and I knew something was fishy. I posted about it on the forums and got replies about desync and lag. Other players also mentioned countless abilities at the same time and they got the same replies. Until one broke the sacred oath and told how to do it. And the "best" part is, ZOS doesn't care, because players enjoy that implemented hack.... If PvP was a joke before, now it's a joke you can die laughing to....

can you provide the explanation from the "sacred oath". I know about skill-queue-combos with stamina two-handed but i never quite got how it works properly. Somehow the skill doesnt go off in time so it allignes with the other skill and creates a combo. I guess you using these technique too now right?

edit: or was it not something with allining skills and bug it out with weapon swap so all go off at once?
edit: took me a bit but i found what you meant: its the macro slice you refering to right?

Knightpanther · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

I once played a 4 v 4 3rd person shooter game called syphon filter logans shadow back in 2006. As you ranked up, you got stronger weapons. If you started new, it was truly an unbalanced bloodbath for a newer player going into it. However, over time, as once got acquainted with the mechanics and weapons at their disposal, the game showed it's amazing depth. They had things like tripwires, bouncing betty mines, grenades, knives, emp. smoke grenades, etc. So me and my bro, over time used these beginner weapons and started to get better and better. It wasn't just about getting the headshot. You could win just by using the tripwires strategically, make them follow you to their deaths lol. (if they shot one, it could trigger another that they didn't see lol) If not that you could stealth and wait for them and use a knife from behind to kill them. If all my data was wiped out, I could easily get back into the game using the starter weapons and still be effective.

This, unfortunately simply cannot happen in ESO. You MUST have certain types of sets to be in pvp/pve.
The reason why? is because ESO promotes the DPS meter. Both in pvp and pve it's about burst damage/DPS. This makes the game more like CoD rather than Syphon Filter. Who ever blows their damage out faster and harder is the winner. There is no strategy, no tricks, no skill. Just out damage people. Just like in CoD how its whoever gets the headshot first, a twich reaction. This applies to the zergs, who ever get's their ultis out before the server gives out are automatically the winners and these ball groups thing they are so good its laughable.

I am not sure where I am going with this but something has to change with this "I got high dps/burst damage therefor I win/am good" mentality/system.

The removal of sustain will just encourage burst damage builds even more throwing it closer to CoD type gameplay. You would think, they would say "let me manage my resources" but really they will do what they do now. Let the other guy use his resources pop potion clevar alchemist, vigor/other heal, heavy attack and burst them to death.

I am not sure I said this before but I realized, if you can kill your opponent fast, why care for resources? This is what causes sustain to mean nothing in this game.

Completely wrong for Cyrodiil PVP, you dont HAVE to have anything, some of the cheapest, easiest to obtain/craft gear is still pretty decent in PvP, its more about the player skill.

Be Safe

idk · August 2020

OP is comparing mechanics of a single-player game to an MMORPG and those mechanics make no sense here.

In any MMORPG that DPS meter is there and top groups working to clear the most challenging content will often have DPS requirements and in that certain sets of gear are the go-to choices to help obtain that DPS. FF14, SWTOR, and WoW all have the means to track ones DPS with both FF14 and SWTOR having the ability for a raid to track everyone's actions. I expect WoW does but could not stand the game enough to get into raiding.

So what OP is complaining about is life for anyone who wants to get into serious raiding groups in an MMORPG. With all this, player skill is still the most important factor in a players DPS.

As for the comments about PvP, they do not seem very appropriate to this game. Gear is far from the most significant aspect of a build (ok, except tank builds). Player skill is by far the most significant factor in a player's survival and killing other players. I have never been burst down in 1v1 as is suggested to be the case in ESO unless it is a large group all focusing on me.

kathandira · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

snip

I'll start by saying that I understand that Dueling is not a great representation of actual PvP.

But using Dueling as an example of my experience with 1v1 game play, I can tell you that simply out damaging the opponent is the newb way of fighting.

In Dueling Tourneys that I have entered, it is easy to see who knows how to PvP, and who does not. When I know who I am up against, I employ simple burn tactics. I generally build my PvE characters with as much burn and sustain as possible, with very little survival skills. So going against a fellow PvE'r, it comes down to who is best at positioning their attacks, and putting on the mosts damage/pressure.

However, when you play against a PvP built character, the outcome is very different. They will stun you, they will fear you, they will snare you and they will drain your resources. They will shut you down with every ability they can, keeping track of diminishing returns, and varying their CC to ensure you are locked down, and unable to respond with any of your attacks.

So if you experience has simply been, who can burn faster, I can assume that the scenarios you have been in have been large zergs, vs small groups. Playing against PvE built characters. Or simply inexperienced PvPrs.

Xargas13 · August 2020

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

Xargas13 wrote: »

This was mentioned before by me and other posters on PvP forums. And I completely agree, before the patch the use of defensives was something, now they barely count, just farm a bunch of proc sets and you are a good player.... I was really liking this game before, now it's crap. Also I will give you a hint, you can actually by pass GCD by spamming so called combo by hitting different abilities fast, and that will give you the burst of bunch of abilities in less then 3 seconds. Apparently it is a thing, and when mentioned on ESO forums, people say it's desync or lag or whatever. One poster was kind enough to share that "skill" and now it all made sense. Since I never experienced lag in the game despite countless posts mentioning it, and I was really wondering when this happened:

I was in BG and was dueling countless times one dude, he was close to killing me each time, but I won every round, then after some loosing rounds on his part, he came at me and was able to down me in seconds, I was like okay, maybe I got the famous desync, but then he did it again and again, and I knew something was fishy. I posted about it on the forums and got replies about desync and lag. Other players also mentioned countless abilities at the same time and they got the same replies. Until one broke the sacred oath and told how to do it. And the "best" part is, ZOS doesn't care, because players enjoy that implemented hack.... If PvP was a joke before, now it's a joke you can die laughing to....

can you provide the explanation from the "sacred oath". I know about skill-queue-combos with stamina two-handed but i never quite got how it works properly. Somehow the skill doesnt go off in time so it allignes with the other skill and creates a combo. I guess you using these technique too now right?

edit: or was it not something with allining skills and bug it out with weapon swap so all go off at once?
edit: took me a bit but i found what you meant: its the macro slice you refering to right?

Honestly I didn't bother to get into it as I quit playing for now. Got too frustrated with the changes. And I don't care to find out, because I don't find that kind of gameplay exciting. But basically it is used by most stamina classes, it's a combination of some specific abilities which allow you to by pass GCD, again, don't know which. Honestly now that I know about it, it makes sense now what I have been experiencing, I refereed to it as a "sacred oath" because I asked about this countless times on the forums, complaining about how in the hell I get one or two animations from player but then in recount it shows many abilities, and despite it is being widely used, no one ever explained it to me and blamed lag and desync, until accidentally, in one recent post about PvP I saw a reply with instructions on how to do it.

LuxLunae · August 2020

Knightpanther wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

I once played a 4 v 4 3rd person shooter game called syphon filter logans shadow back in 2006. As you ranked up, you got stronger weapons. If you started new, it was truly an unbalanced bloodbath for a newer player going into it. However, over time, as once got acquainted with the mechanics and weapons at their disposal, the game showed it's amazing depth. They had things like tripwires, bouncing betty mines, grenades, knives, emp. smoke grenades, etc. So me and my bro, over time used these beginner weapons and started to get better and better. It wasn't just about getting the headshot. You could win just by using the tripwires strategically, make them follow you to their deaths lol. (if they shot one, it could trigger another that they didn't see lol) If not that you could stealth and wait for them and use a knife from behind to kill them. If all my data was wiped out, I could easily get back into the game using the starter weapons and still be effective.

This, unfortunately simply cannot happen in ESO. You MUST have certain types of sets to be in pvp/pve.
The reason why? is because ESO promotes the DPS meter. Both in pvp and pve it's about burst damage/DPS. This makes the game more like CoD rather than Syphon Filter. Who ever blows their damage out faster and harder is the winner. There is no strategy, no tricks, no skill. Just out damage people. Just like in CoD how its whoever gets the headshot first, a twich reaction. This applies to the zergs, who ever get's their ultis out before the server gives out are automatically the winners and these ball groups thing they are so good its laughable.

I am not sure where I am going with this but something has to change with this "I got high dps/burst damage therefor I win/am good" mentality/system.

The removal of sustain will just encourage burst damage builds even more throwing it closer to CoD type gameplay. You would think, they would say "let me manage my resources" but really they will do what they do now. Let the other guy use his resources pop potion clevar alchemist, vigor/other heal, heavy attack and burst them to death.

I am not sure I said this before but I realized, if you can kill your opponent fast, why care for resources? This is what causes sustain to mean nothing in this game.

Completely wrong for Cyrodiil PVP, you dont HAVE to have anything, some of the cheapest, easiest to obtain/craft gear is still pretty decent in PvP, its more about the player skill.

Be Safe

You right in cyro you can be in a group and PVDoor your way to emp... I forget that..

LuxLunae · August 2020

idk wrote: »

OP is comparing mechanics of a single-player game to an MMORPG and those mechanics make no sense here.

In any MMORPG that DPS meter is there and top groups working to clear the most challenging content will often have DPS requirements and in that certain sets of gear are the go-to choices to help obtain that DPS. FF14, SWTOR, and WoW all have the means to track ones DPS with both FF14 and SWTOR having the ability for a raid to track everyone's actions. I expect WoW does but could not stand the game enough to get into raiding.

So what OP is complaining about is life for anyone who wants to get into serious raiding groups in an MMORPG. With all this, player skill is still the most important factor in a players DPS.

As for the comments about PvP, they do not seem very appropriate to this game. Gear is far from the most significant aspect of a build (ok, except tank builds). Player skill is by far the most significant factor in a player's survival and killing other players. I have never been burst down in 1v1 as is suggested to be the case in ESO unless it is a large group all focusing on me.

I did have a different comment here with a deep explanation, but then I realized you want ESO to be exactly like every other MMO. It makes it easier for you to jump around different MMOs and know what you are doing. I want ESO to be what it could be. I realize that your thoughts may be the majority and shared with the eso staff.

I might have simply grew out of ESO. So I am making my own game, 2D for simplicity.

The only reason why I am here is because I randomly saw this vid today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMrE2sXJhno

Its funny because after the ESO portion he plays some third person shooter game and uses mines to kill somebody...

Then I finally realized, ESO is not the game for me. I gravitate towards games like Dark Souls and Syphon Filter. (Not CoD).

Dark souls I can beat a boss with a broken sword no armors similar with Syphon Filter.

I'll probably stay in ESO, but I won't try to play it to enjoy it. I give up. I am going to just follow the meta and do what everybody else is doing for progress.

Actually no can't do it..who enjoyed going down the same path everybody else does? If humans were like that we'd have made no progress.

ForzaRammer · August 2020

Ok bye

Auroan · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

I did have a different comment here with a deep explanation, but then I realized you want ESO to be exactly like every other MMO. It makes it easier for you to jump around different MMOs and know what you are doing. I want ESO to be what it could be. I realize that your thoughts may be the majority and shared with the eso staff.

I might have simply grew out of ESO. So I am making my own game, 2D for simplicity.

The only reason why I am here is because I randomly saw this vid today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMrE2sXJhno

Its funny because after the ESO portion he plays some third person shooter game and uses mines to kill somebody...

Then I finally realized, ESO is not the game for me. I gravitate towards games like Dark Souls and Syphon Filter. (Not CoD).

Dark souls I can beat a boss with a broken sword no armors similar with Syphon Filter.

I'll probably stay in ESO, but I won't try to play it to enjoy it. I give up. I am going to just follow the meta and do what everybody else is doing for progress.

Actually no can't do it..who enjoyed going down the same path everybody else does? If humans were like that we'd have made no progress.

Ah, one of these threads again. Hello Darkness, my old friend.

As I mentioned in a thread like this a while ago, what does a Healer do when their group isn't taking a lot, or any damage? Or what if the Healer is already hitting high HPS? Do they start Healing the dirt? What does a Tank do if they're holding Aggro and they never die? Just continue holding block and stack Plague Doctor and Green Pact for more health that they clearly don't need? The point is, this game, like every other MMO out there, has the goal of killing the enemy first before they kill you. The faster you kill something, the less times it does its mechanics. The less times it does its mechanics, the less opportunities for failure and death, since we're all human and sometimes make mistakes.The faster you kill something, the more time you have to spend your time doing and playing other content. It's that simple.

So what should you do and what sets should you wear if Tanks always have aggro, Healers are over-Healing, and DPS aren't standing in stupid and doing mechanics properly? It's simple. You support your DPS, because they're the most important thing to support because they're the ones that get you through the content (I'm a Tank main, btw, not a bias DPS, though I do DPS on the side). Whether certain people are aware of it or not, and like it or not, certain Trials/Dungs simply aren't possible until you hit a certain threshold for group DPS. Otherwise, Creepers will overlap and Orbs won't die, or the Tank will have 12 Celestial Axes on them and 7 Mini-Mages up, or vHoF 3rd boss will be moving so fast you'll literally have like, 2 seconds to do damage to it with how fast it's moving, or Assembly General, Rakkhat, or the Celestial Mage in execute will just finish their execute mechanic and kill you. Get my point? Wearing buff sets like Alkosh, Yoln, Olo, Zen, MK, etc. is what you want, because there's nothing else for you to do in high level play except clear the content faster and avoid more potential opportunities for death. And to do that, you need higher group DPS, which is achieved by buffing and proper skill rotation.

"But all mechanics are bias towards DPS". Yeah, tell that to vMoL Twins, vHoF Triplets, Z'maja, Lord Falgravn, etc. If you think there's no content that pushes Tanks and Healers and make everyone rely on Tanks on Healers, then you're very wrong. Contrary to popular belief, while some groups handle content better than others, Tanks and Healers need to get their [snip] together too, or else good luck clearing. You don't know how important having a good Tank or Healer is until you're stuck with a really bad one. Even in high DPS groups, it's a nightmare because they'll cause you to die from losing aggro, not healing enough, failing at mechanics that're irrelevant to group DPS, and so on.

Dark Souls is not a good example to compare to ESO. It'd make more sense to compare Dark Souls to Skyrim, more than ESO. Regardless, as someone whose gotten 100% achievements multiple times on different platforms for 1 and 3 (not 2 because there's no way you're getting me to waste my time getting 500 kills for the Brotherhood of Blood), I promise you there's meta and there's more alike than you think. Did we forget about Giant Dad meta already? Hex meta? INT/Homing Crystal Soulmass meta? Chaos Dark Sword meta?

Point is, meta exists in every game. Why perform bad when you can perform good? Why perform good when you can perform great? Developers try to combat meta by buffing and nerfing, but all it does is create a new meta. You can never escape it. There will always be something that performs better than the others, and players capitalize on that.

"I can beat a boss with a broken sword and no armor". Again, Dark Souls is not a good example to compare to ESO, because you're comparing a game primarily meant to be played solo, and thus achievable to be won solo, to a game that's primarily meant to be played as a team, and thus achievable to be won as a team. Dark Souls has no mechanics that specifically require you to have a teammate help you, or you die. ESO does have mechanics that specifically require you to have a teammate to help you, or you die. Dark Souls is literally trial and error. You memorize the move set the boss has. Once you have memorized, all you do then is dodge roll, hit, dodge roll, hit, dodge roll, hit, and then you're done. That's why it's achievable naked with a broken sword. But at the cost of sacrificing a lot more time to kill then boss then you need to. Sorry, but while personal challenges are nice and all, I'm not going to take 20 minutes to kill a boss that requires 2 minutes (or seconds if we're doing 1 shot meta build) unless there's an achievement for it.

Also, the solo content in ESO can be completed naked with your fists, so why aren't you doing that? Hell, people even do Naked Runs in Trials these days, so why aren't you doing that?

[Edit to remove profanity and real-world politics]

itscompton · August 2020

I'm not a huge fan of the high burst/low heal meta either but there are other options for playing the game and having fun other than going all out DPS.
For example I have a Templar vampire mist tank with really high health recovery that I use to distract, cc and debuff during sieges. When the enemy is attacking I'll burn siege and make it take 3X as long to get a wall or gate down. The minimum to even pressure me to move to stay alive when in mist form is 3 extremely high damage builds grouped up coordinating ulti drops. Groups of 5-10 require light kiting with lots of opportunities to drop out of mist to put down snares, debuffs, tease them with fears. Tanking groups of 10+ is when the build requires some actual thought and skill. I have to stay in mist almost constantly, moving in unpredictable patterns so I can't get ulti dumped, then time my potions for the immovable to drop mist, fear as many as possible so they can't burst me then put buffs back up for the magica regen and damage reduction.
I get in the right terrain and I can kite around in mist form for 20 minutes with a group of 10-15 chasing me. It's so funny fearing 15 people at the same time with Turn Evil as they come around a corner behind me stacked together then going into Blood Mist and ghosting right back through them as I soak up health.
I can also help quite a bit in small scale throwing out ritual for a h.o.t with purges, fearing enemies in the middle their burst so they can't finish kills, snaring and rooting with blockade of frost, applying minor magic steal, dropping Solar Prison for Major Maim to protect friendlies and damage plus stun to enemies with the synergy. I goad people into trying to focus me, wasting resources and even ultimates without ever dropping me below 50% health.
Killing someone solo is almost impossible with the build but it can really help make a difference in Cyro and it's tons of fun to play.

idk · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP is comparing mechanics of a single-player game to an MMORPG and those mechanics make no sense here.

In any MMORPG that DPS meter is there and top groups working to clear the most challenging content will often have DPS requirements and in that certain sets of gear are the go-to choices to help obtain that DPS. FF14, SWTOR, and WoW all have the means to track ones DPS with both FF14 and SWTOR having the ability for a raid to track everyone's actions. I expect WoW does but could not stand the game enough to get into raiding.

So what OP is complaining about is life for anyone who wants to get into serious raiding groups in an MMORPG. With all this, player skill is still the most important factor in a players DPS.

As for the comments about PvP, they do not seem very appropriate to this game. Gear is far from the most significant aspect of a build (ok, except tank builds). Player skill is by far the most significant factor in a player's survival and killing other players. I have never been burst down in 1v1 as is suggested to be the case in ESO unless it is a large group all focusing on me.

I did have a different comment here with a deep explanation, but then I realized you want ESO to be exactly like every other MMO. It makes it easier for you to jump around different MMOs and know what you are doing.

Please do not put words into my mouth merely because I made a good point that is not in agreement that ESO should play more like a single-player game it is not.

Lord-Otto · August 2020

@Auroan

Giantdad was never meta. Havelmom with ninja flip was until they patched DWGR. Giants+MoM is now a good choice for medium rolls, but Chaos Blade with ninja flip is generally accepted to be the best setup.
Meta in DS2 is the Ice Rapier, in DS3 it's Lothric Knight or Gotthard sword, dark infused. Chaos infusion was never the best for the Dark Sword. It was heavy, I believe.
Overall, the meta in the Souls games is defined by weapons and some rings more than armor. ESO takes all your slots into your build, for better or worse.

The comparison to the broken sword is wrong. It takes a lot of boss knowledge to kill it with a weak weapon. In ESO, it works the other way round. You need the best gear for peak performance, but you can then attempt hard modes or solo group content, which... takes a lot of knowledge. The Souls games don't have those options. Midir on NG10 will always be the same. That is why DS veterans create their own challenge runs. And this is the same in ESO, ZOS even design challenges for us.

Auroan · August 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@Auroan

Giantdad was never meta. Havelmom with ninja flip was until they patched DWGR. Giants+MoM is now a good choice for medium rolls, but Chaos Blade with ninja flip is generally accepted to be the best setup.
Meta in DS2 is the Ice Rapier, in DS3 it's Lothric Knight or Gotthard sword, dark infused. Chaos infusion was never the best for the Dark Sword. It was heavy, I believe.
Overall, the meta in the Souls games is defined by weapons and some rings more than armor. ESO takes all your slots into your build, for better or worse.

The comparison to the broken sword is wrong. It takes a lot of boss knowledge to kill it with a weak weapon. In ESO, it works the other way round. You need the best gear for peak performance, but you can then attempt hard modes or solo group content, which... takes a lot of knowledge. The Souls games don't have those options. Midir on NG10 will always be the same. That is why DS veterans create their own challenge runs. And this is the same in ESO, ZOS even design challenges for us.

GiantDad build was/is the definition of Min/Max'ing in Dark Souls. What's the easiest, most OP build I can make using as little levels as possible so that I can invade low levels and kill them with 0 effort. That's GiantDad. It was popular because it was a meme, but it was also popular because it worked. You had high Stam Regen from the Mask and Shield. If you parried or back-stabbed someone, it was pretty much a 1 shot to anyone. If someone tried to attack you, you just attacked with your Chaos Zweihander because your Poise was so high, you wouldn't stagger and you'd just attack right through their attack and stun lock them until they were dead. Even in Dark Souls: Remastered, people still invade and wait for invasion in the Darkroot Garden with GiantDad builds (last I played, anyways, which was a while ago).
This isn't me saying that the Havel build wasn't Meta, or OP as well. People aren't aware, but Black Iron Armor with Lightning Greataxe was incredibly OP as well. The point I was making is that Meta is constantly changing. People will buff, people will nerf, but all it's doing is creating a new Meta that people will use. Everything we listed was a Meta at some point of time, such as the Dark Wood Grain ring you stated, until they nerfed it to where you needed to be at 25% equipment load or lower to do ninja flips. That includes Chaos Dark Sword in DS3. I remember when they nerfed its damage and swing speed because it just trumped every other 1H in basically every single category.

The OP is complaining how they dislike the idea of following meta, and following the build and set up that everyone else is doing, and used Dark Souls as an example of freedom-of-play. The point I'm trying to get across is:
1.) They're very different games to compare
2.) While different, they have more similarities then the OP of this forum thinks
No one is forcing you to use GiantDad, Mom, Hex/INT builds, etc. No one is forcing you to use the "meta". If you want to run around naked doing 1 damage to all enemies and spend 20 mins on a single boss, that's all you.
Similarly, no one is forcing you to use MS and PFG on a Mag DPS in ESO. No one is forcing you to use Rele and Lokk, or Dual Wield over a 2H on a Stam DPS in ESO. If you want to run around naked in ESO using a lvl 1 weapon doing 1 damage to all enemies and spend 20 mins on a single boss, that's all you.
But don't complain when you're not getting the results you want in a team oriented game. ESO has plenty of solo content that you can run naked in, dodge roll all attacks and just punch things without any judgement. But you can't expect to go into a Veteran Trial group that's pushing a HM and expect 11 other people to be okay that you're running around naked with a lvl 1 weapon contributing literally nothing to the group and actually making it harder for them to clear and achieve their goals. That's stupid and selfish and that's not how this specific type of game works. This isn't Dark Souls, this is ESO.

I'm also not really sure if you were trying to disagree with me with my prior statements, as you proved what I said to be correct. Whether it's NG, or NG+7, Midir, for example, is going to have the same exact kit. The damage and health just differs. Dark Souls is a Trial and Error game, and overcoming the bosses comes with repetition. It comes with repetition because through those reps of constantly dying over and over, you begin to memorize the bosses moveset. Now you know what that animation is and what it does. Now you know that they're going to follow up with X ability and what the hit box is. Now you know the timing of when to dodge roll specific attacks. Once you know the bosses moveset, you are untouchable because you know when to dodge roll, when to parry, and when to strike. That's why people are able to do Naked runs with fists, because they know the timing of everything, and at that point, difficulty doesn't exist. You're just going to spend 40 mins killing a boss now instead of your typical 20 mins since their health is now multiplied, lol.

The same thing is with ESO, just slightly different. Gear plays a huge factor in this, you're 100% correct, for if you go into a Vet HM trial naked, you'll probably get 1 shot from everything, so Dark Souls does have that freedom-to-play advantage there. But everything else remains the same. You need to get your reps so that you know when to dodge, when to swap colors, when to swap taunts, when to not barswap, when to kill X and Y ad, etc. Just like how if you're a bad player in Dark Souls, if you're a bad player in ESO, it doesn't matter what gear you wear or what your level is, you're going to fail the mechanics and die. I can go find a group of CP 200's in Craglorn, give them the best gear in the game, but if they don't know mechanics and don't know a proper rotation (which is much more important then gear for DPS roles), they're still going to pull bad DPS and die. If I go find a fresh Dark Souls player that's just made it past the Bell Gargoyle boss, give them the best gear and spells in the game, they're still going to get destroyed by Manus if they don't have the skill.

My main issue is just the OP's hypocrisy. Their main issue with ESO (following meta) is an issue that's also in Dark Souls. Their favorite feature with Dark Souls is a feature that's also in ESO (freedom to play however you want). What OP needs to understand is their complaints come in when Multiplayer is introduced. As I've stated, when you play the Single Player aspect of Dark Souls and ESO, you have the same freedom to wear, play and take as long as you want to kill a boss. But when you get into the Multiplayer aspect of Dark Souls and ESO, that's when things change because now you're dealing with other LIVE people, which brings competition with it. Just how OP can complain that everyone just follows meta in ESO like sheep, the same exact thing can be stated with Dark Souls. Again, there are slight differences that can be made to argue against such a point, but doing so would state something I've already clarified: They're two entirely different games with a different approach of playstyle.

SeaGtGruff · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

You MUST have certain types of sets to be in pvp/pve.
The reason why? is because ESO promotes the DPS meter. Both in pvp and pve it's about burst damage/DPS.

This is not true in PvE. I have very poopy DPS on my two mains, terrible stamina regen, and they use 2H weapons and attacks that require getting in close to land a hit-- and staying close (often having to stand in red circles) to keep landing hits, because they must use HAW to keep restoring stamina-- and they are only moderately tanky; but I can still solo certain dungeons and world bosses with them.

Well, I can with my PC NA main, because he's a PetSorc who can use his Clannfear for burst healing; but my PC EU main has a much tougher time because he doesn't have any good burst healing skills-- and neither of them use a lot of potions for burst healing, nor even much food and drink of any kind, because I prefer to play without "alchemical crutches" if possible.

Yes, this means it usually takes a long time to whittle down some bosses before finally landing the killing blow, and some are too powerful to kill at all, especially if there are two or more powerful bosses who fight as one. But it can be a lot of fun when a fight takes 5 minutes or longer and my character is nearly wiped out several times.

I once had a final dungeon boss fight last well over 30 minutes-- possibly an hour or longer-- and my character wiped out and nearly gave up halfway through, but I worked out a strategy for handling the adds, and the fight turned out to be immense fun. This was actually on my PC EU primary alt, because my main wouldn't have even made it past the first boss.

Anyway, maybe what you said is true in random group dungeons, where many players will kick you in a heartbeat if you don't measure up to their standards; but not in solo PvE where no one can kick you and you only need to please yourself. True, you won't be able to solo all PvE content; but you can still solo a good bit of difficult content with lousy DPS, low sustain and slow regen, and no slotting of long-range attacks or heavy-duty AoEs.

kargen27 · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

I once played a 4 v 4 3rd person shooter game called syphon filter logans shadow back in 2006. As you ranked up, you got stronger weapons. If you started new, it was truly an unbalanced bloodbath for a newer player going into it. However, over time, as once got acquainted with the mechanics and weapons at their disposal, the game showed it's amazing depth. They had things like tripwires, bouncing betty mines, grenades, knives, emp. smoke grenades, etc. So me and my bro, over time used these beginner weapons and started to get better and better. It wasn't just about getting the headshot. You could win just by using the tripwires strategically, make them follow you to their deaths lol. (if they shot one, it could trigger another that they didn't see lol) If not that you could stealth and wait for them and use a knife from behind to kill them. If all my data was wiped out, I could easily get back into the game using the starter weapons and still be effective.

This, unfortunately simply cannot happen in ESO. You MUST have certain types of sets to be in pvp/pve.
The reason why? is because ESO promotes the DPS meter. Both in pvp and pve it's about burst damage/DPS. This makes the game more like CoD rather than Syphon Filter. Who ever blows their damage out faster and harder is the winner. There is no strategy, no tricks, no skill. Just out damage people. Just like in CoD how its whoever gets the headshot first, a twich reaction. This applies to the zergs, who ever get's their ultis out before the server gives out are automatically the winners and these ball groups thing they are so good its laughable.

I am not sure where I am going with this but something has to change with this "I got high dps/burst damage therefor I win/am good" mentality/system.

The removal of sustain will just encourage burst damage builds even more throwing it closer to CoD type gameplay. You would think, they would say "let me manage my resources" but really they will do what they do now. Let the other guy use his resources pop potion clevar alchemist, vigor/other heal, heavy attack and burst them to death.

I am not sure I said this before but I realized, if you can kill your opponent fast, why care for resources? This is what causes sustain to mean nothing in this game.

I don't worry much about having the best gear. Luckily I am in a like minded guild so I can participate in the harder content. We get wiped a lot and trials can take a long time but even if we do not finish we have time. I do have a healer that has all the latest and greatest gear and skills available I use in a trials guild that is a little more serious about things. I keep kicking around the idea of getting a DPS ready to go for that guild but so far lack the motivation. I have 18 characters fully leveled so all it would take is a respec on skills and then getting proper gear but so far I haven't felt the need.

PvP is a different animal. Skill does matter more than anything else in PvP but there is no getting around proper gear and skills making a difference. PvP can be a little forgiving though when you are in a group. If the group plays well together gear doesn't matter so much. Just like one of the games mentioned above in Cyrodiil if two groups are near the same skill wise the battle can often be won by getting the enemy to follow you into a trap. The first ultimate often is not the one that wins the battle.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2020

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

You MUST have certain types of sets to be in pvp/pve.
The reason why? is because ESO promotes the DPS meter. Both in pvp and pve it's about burst damage/DPS.

This is not true in PvE. I have very poopy DPS on my two mains, terrible stamina regen, and they use 2H weapons and attacks that require getting in close to land a hit-- and staying close (often having to stand in red circles) to keep landing hits, because they must use HAW to keep restoring stamina-- and they are only moderately tanky; but I can still solo certain dungeons and world bosses with them.

Well, I can with my PC NA main, because he's a PetSorc who can use his Clannfear for burst healing; but my PC EU main has a much tougher time because he doesn't have any good burst healing skills-- and neither of them use a lot of potions for burst healing, nor even much food and drink of any kind, because I prefer to play without "alchemical crutches" if possible.

Yes, this means it usually takes a long time to whittle down some bosses before finally landing the killing blow, and some are too powerful to kill at all, especially if there are two or more powerful bosses who fight as one. But it can be a lot of fun when a fight takes 5 minutes or longer and my character is nearly wiped out several times.

I once had a final dungeon boss fight last well over 30 minutes-- possibly an hour or longer-- and my character wiped out and nearly gave up halfway through, but I worked out a strategy for handling the adds, and the fight turned out to be immense fun. This was actually on my PC EU primary alt, because my main wouldn't have even made it past the first boss.

Anyway, maybe what you said is true in random group dungeons, where many players will kick you in a heartbeat if you don't measure up to their standards; but not in solo PvE where no one can kick you and you only need to please yourself. True, you won't be able to solo all PvE content; but you can still solo a good bit of difficult content with lousy DPS, low sustain and slow regen, and no slotting of long-range attacks or heavy-duty AoEs.

Honestly I just run my DPS builds but slot an extra heal and/or shield to run most content. I do several of the undaunted pledges solo on my magplar and stamden. When I’m in trial groups I swap maybe one or two skills out to get some extra DPS or group utility. There is content I need at least a tank along for the ride though because my DPS are still vulnerable to 1 shot mechanics, Especially vet dungeons where you miss one block or dodge roll and you’re dead.

But you can pretty much get away with playing just a straight DPS setup for most of the game and it really have any problems staying alive or killing anything outside of a few world bosses and mechanic heavy dungeons that require a group.

mairwen85 · August 2020

Xargas13 wrote: »

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

Xargas13 wrote: »

This was mentioned before by me and other posters on PvP forums. And I completely agree, before the patch the use of defensives was something, now they barely count, just farm a bunch of proc sets and you are a good player.... I was really liking this game before, now it's crap. Also I will give you a hint, you can actually by pass GCD by spamming so called combo by hitting different abilities fast, and that will give you the burst of bunch of abilities in less then 3 seconds. Apparently it is a thing, and when mentioned on ESO forums, people say it's desync or lag or whatever. One poster was kind enough to share that "skill" and now it all made sense. Since I never experienced lag in the game despite countless posts mentioning it, and I was really wondering when this happened:

I was in BG and was dueling countless times one dude, he was close to killing me each time, but I won every round, then after some loosing rounds on his part, he came at me and was able to down me in seconds, I was like okay, maybe I got the famous desync, but then he did it again and again, and I knew something was fishy. I posted about it on the forums and got replies about desync and lag. Other players also mentioned countless abilities at the same time and they got the same replies. Until one broke the sacred oath and told how to do it. And the "best" part is, ZOS doesn't care, because players enjoy that implemented hack.... If PvP was a joke before, now it's a joke you can die laughing to....

can you provide the explanation from the "sacred oath". I know about skill-queue-combos with stamina two-handed but i never quite got how it works properly. Somehow the skill doesnt go off in time so it allignes with the other skill and creates a combo. I guess you using these technique too now right?

edit: or was it not something with allining skills and bug it out with weapon swap so all go off at once?
edit: took me a bit but i found what you meant: its the macro slice you refering to right?

Honestly I didn't bother to get into it as I quit playing for now. Got too frustrated with the changes. And I don't care to find out, because I don't find that kind of gameplay exciting. But basically it is used by most stamina classes, it's a combination of some specific abilities which allow you to by pass GCD, again, don't know which. Honestly now that I know about it, it makes sense now what I have been experiencing, I refereed to it as a "sacred oath" because I asked about this countless times on the forums, complaining about how in the hell I get one or two animations from player but then in recount it shows many abilities, and despite it is being widely used, no one ever explained it to me and blamed lag and desync, until accidentally, in one recent post about PvP I saw a reply with instructions on how to do it.

Make a claim framed as fact, when asked for specifics say I don't know nor care, but someone does. The problem is that when you make a claim of such magnitude, the burden of proof falls on you. Someone said this was happening, someone explained but you weren't paying attention, recently you read a post with instructions, but your memory despite all that is hazy; aparently you don't really want to know either, yet you feel compelled to make statement to it... Really you should have flagged that post as explaining how to exploit, reported whatever was told to you as an exploit--weird how you feel it's a problem but you thought it was OK to not be looked at by devs.

Hmmm

Amunari · August 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

Who ever blows their damage out faster and harder is the winner. There is no strategy, no tricks, no skill. Just out damage people.

This is a bigger issue then you think, and the solution to the problem is very easy, however, there is an underlying issue that is at hand that is at the very heart of the philosophy of this game.

You see, there is a massive war of sorts raging on with players and developers, and that war is what we can coin as "the war of power". This is not about position or authority or that type of power, it is about the power that comes from statistical power, namely things on your gear like +1000 armor pen, or +1000 crit.

As i have said in the past "the power designed into eso is an ancient way of thinking something we did with games years and years ago because we, the designers/developers of games through the industry could not solve the problem of engaging players with "options" as opposed to "power" ".

This brings us to eso. You see this power has a direct appeal to egotism and arrogance. Some may be offended by this but its truth. In essence we as a species are more damaged then we think, due to this we need to get on the internet to validate ourselves to help our self esteem. So the solution to this problem is really that we need to fix ourselves as a species but that would likely involve invalidation of the games we are playing/making, and more to the point its beyond practicality for us devs/designers to do.

So we can sum this up to those of us designers/developers that are far beyond zenimax's design capability know about this and balance games around "choice and tools" as opposed to "power and egotism". We have invalidated our games for the player base that plays them and designed (and or changed) them for the upcoming generations. This places the games we are working on in a strange position where we have alienated our own player base and it is because of that games like eso are still alive.

You are advocating that we shift eso to wow's level of power, and as a player i do not disagree with you at all but as a designer i question if this is a good move for the game, and ultimately zenimax.

I'd rather make a few changes to the current games structure and see where that takes us. what i'd like to see done is

- Obviously add pvp group queues or fix the problem.
- Redesign the CP system to give no more then 25 points, and make the talents you can spec into them 1/1 for the most part, and none of them should be power based, rather should alter the mechanical operation of things.

Some examples of that are:

- you can now mount and gather resources
- you gather 50% faster
- your light attacks deal more damage but your heavy attacks deal less
- your heavy attacks charge faster, but your light attacks deal less damage
- your light attacks generate resource, but your heavy generates less
- when you roll you stealth for 3 seconds
- your block consumes 80% less resource
-

Also, the game needs global cool downs on all abilities to 0.5 seconds.
Additionally, and probably a significant one is to add a weighted stat system. Basically the concept of this is that when you stack one thing, it decreases in value. This as far as i know is in effect in a way in eso, but it wow it works in a good way where you cant really go beyond this hardcap, and going beyond the soft cap often hurts you. This ends up being that you want all stats to roughly be equal, with one or two slightly over the others. For example, if i have 100 crit, when i get 150 my penetration value doubles so if i get +100 pen (on an armor piece)i actually get +200 in character stats (gui).

Lastly, some things are far to easily stacked of the things that need a hard cap the most is damage reduction (resistance) and especially that relating to crit resist.

Imo gear should not really grant any of this but i am not opposed to a talent (with the above conditionts of 1 point) granting more (+15% more of your crit resist value added to crit resist) Its important to note that when you can push +100 points into 1 thing it adds way to much power. the +1 point / talent option is far better and more balanced. With mechanical operation in the game the talents will have power, with out having power in stats.

mairwen85 · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

Who ever blows their damage out faster and harder is the winner. There is no strategy, no tricks, no skill. Just out damage people.

This is a bigger issue then you think, and the solution to the problem is very easy, however, there is an underlying issue that is at hand that is at the very heart of the philosophy of this game.

You see, there is a massive war of sorts raging on with players and developers, and that war is what we can coin as "the war of power". This is not about position or authority or that type of power, it is about the power that comes from statistical power, namely things on your gear like +1000 armor pen, or +1000 crit.

As i have said in the past "the power designed into eso is an ancient way of thinking something we did with games years and years ago because we, the designers/developers of games through the industry could not solve the problem of engaging players with "options" as opposed to "power" ".

This brings us to eso. You see this power has a direct appeal to egotism and arrogance. Some may be offended by this but its truth. In essence we as a species are more damaged then we think, due to this we need to get on the internet to validate ourselves to help our self esteem. So the solution to this problem is really that we need to fix ourselves as a species but that would likely involve invalidation of the games we are playing/making, and more to the point its beyond practicality for us devs/designers to do.

So we can sum this up to those of us designers/developers that are far beyond zenimax's design capability know about this and balance games around "choice and tools" as opposed to "power and egotism". We have invalidated our games for the player base that plays them and designed (and or changed) them for the upcoming generations. This places the games we are working on in a strange position where we have alienated our own player base and it is because of that games like eso are still alive.

You are advocating that we shift eso to wow's level of power, and as a player i do not disagree with you at all but as a designer i question if this is a good move for the game, and ultimately zenimax.

I'd rather make a few changes to the current games structure and see where that takes us. what i'd like to see done is

- Obviously add pvp group queues or fix the problem.
- Redesign the CP system to give no more then 25 points, and make the talents you can spec into them 1/1 for the most part, and none of them should be power based, rather should alter the mechanical operation of things.

Some examples of that are:

- you can now mount and gather resources
- you gather 50% faster
- your light attacks deal more damage but your heavy attacks deal less
- your heavy attacks charge faster, but your light attacks deal less damage
- your light attacks generate resource, but your heavy generates less
- when you roll you stealth for 3 seconds
- your block consumes 80% less resource
-

Also, the game needs global cool downs on all abilities to 0.5 seconds.
Additionally, and probably a significant one is to add a weighted stat system. Basically the concept of this is that when you stack one thing, it decreases in value. This as far as i know is in effect in a way in eso, but it wow it works in a good way where you cant really go beyond this hardcap, and going beyond the soft cap often hurts you. This ends up being that you want all stats to roughly be equal, with one or two slightly over the others. For example, if i have 100 crit, when i get 150 my penetration value doubles so if i get +100 pen (on an armor piece)i actually get +200 in character stats (gui).

Lastly, some things are far to easily stacked of the things that need a hard cap the most is damage reduction (resistance) and especially that relating to crit resist.

Imo gear should not really grant any of this but i am not opposed to a talent (with the above conditionts of 1 point) granting more (+15% more of your crit resist value added to crit resist) Its important to note that when you can push +100 points into 1 thing it adds way to much power. the +1 point / talent option is far better and more balanced. With mechanical operation in the game the talents will have power, with out having power in stats.

ewww

Lord-Otto · August 2020

@Auroan

The Zweihänder is too slow to be dangerous to any skilled player. The Chaos Blade, being a katana, is practically unpunishable, especially with the flip ring. A Zweihänder user will never hit a good CB user. In fact, you'll have to try to connect with Black Flame or Great Combustion to catch a fast player.
As for Giantdad, it is not min-maxed. Slap on the Mask of Mother for more HP and put a couple more points in endurance. You can even take points out of vitality for that, you'll still have more HP than Giantdad. But this comes at the cost of a medium roll, making you vulnerable if you need to dodge. If you wanna backstab, use a Bandit's Knife, btw. And chaos infusion was nerfed a long time ago, non-infused weapons give you the most damage.
You don't seem to understand the meta in that game. Reddit has a couple posts explaining things thoroughly, you should check those out.

As for the connection to ESO, my point still stands. Yes, you can "beat" DS1 and ESO with any gear. But if you wanna push the boundaries, you need the best. You're not speedrunning DS1 with the Broken Sword Hilt. You need the Black Knight Halberd from Darkroot Basin or similar. Those challenge runs are your single player competition, btw. Same in ESO, you're not soloing vet DLC dungeons in CP50 gear with a fun build. You build the best, the "meta" setup and then see how much you can perform with it.

Auroan · August 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@Auroan

The Zweihänder is too slow to be dangerous to any skilled player. The Chaos Blade, being a katana, is practically unpunishable, especially with the flip ring. A Zweihänder user will never hit a good CB user. In fact, you'll have to try to connect with Black Flame or Great Combustion to catch a fast player.
As for Giantdad, it is not min-maxed. Slap on the Mask of Mother for more HP and put a couple more points in endurance. You can even take points out of vitality for that, you'll still have more HP than Giantdad. But this comes at the cost of a medium roll, making you vulnerable if you need to dodge. If you wanna backstab, use a Bandit's Knife, btw. And chaos infusion was nerfed a long time ago, non-infused weapons give you the most damage.
You don't seem to understand the meta in that game. Reddit has a couple posts explaining things thoroughly, you should check those out.

As for the connection to ESO, my point still stands. Yes, you can "beat" DS1 and ESO with any gear. But if you wanna push the boundaries, you need the best. You're not speedrunning DS1 with the Broken Sword Hilt. You need the Black Knight Halberd from Darkroot Basin or similar. Those challenge runs are your single player competition, btw. Same in ESO, you're not soloing vet DLC dungeons in CP50 gear with a fun build. You build the best, the "meta" setup and then see how much you can perform with it.

I'm very aware of how the meta works, and I'm curious where you came up with these ideas because they're totally false. Min-Maxing is getting the most out of the littlest. Giant Dad is the epitome of this. This isn't me vouching that it's the greatest build that has 0 counters, this is me stating that it's without a doubt, the most universally acclaimed build in Dark Souls 1 and has been known to be the epitome of Min-Maxing. I looked at Reddit, just as you suggested, as well as Steam, Quora, and a few others, and they all state the same thing, so Idk where you're finding your information from, but I promise you myself, and many others all agree that Giant Dad is/was a powerful Meta.
I also just went on the Dark Souls 1 Wiki to look at the scaling and stat bonuses of each Infusion (including base +15) on a couple different weapons, and Chaos is the strongest (+15 being one of the lowest actually, but it does depend on the weapon and it's natural base stat scaling). Not only is Chaos the strongest infusion, but the reason why Chaos was chosen for Min-Max builds is because it scales off Humanity (just like Chaos Blade), not stats, meaning you don't need to use levels to get it to become stronger. Meaning you can stay at a lower level. Again, this is Min-Maxing. Getting as much for as little as possible. Zweihander is the lightest of the Ultra Greatswords and only requires 16 strength to 2H and basically 2 shots most builds. It stun locks as well. Again, with Zweihander, you get as much for as little as possible. That is what Min-Maxing is.

Chaos Blade is strong, but I personally don't prefer it because the bleed applies to you as well when you use it. Bandit's Knife is also strong for backstabbing builds, yes, this is true. Again, I want to clearly state, I'm not saying that these builds aren't good, or weren't meta at some point in time. This isn't me saying that Giant Dad is the be all, end all, the undefeatable build. The main point I've been trying to make is that Dark Souls has meta. Dark Souls has gone through various metas. Dark Souls has seen weapons and spells get nerfed and buffed. This is the main point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to state one build is better then the other, because that comes down to player skill, not build. You can argue that a good CB player with Flip ring is untouchable, but I can also argue that if I time my Giant Dad swing with your swing, and both swings collide, you will die because my poise prevents me from getting staggered, while yours doesn't, and thus I have you in a stun lock and win. I have no idea where you got the idea that Zweihander doesn't stun lock from. There's tons of videos on Youtube showing it stun locks, that's why the build was so powerful. You purposely wait for the opponent to attack you and capitalize on the fact that Giant's Armor has incredible poise, and thus they can't stagger you, but you can stagger them, because you're 2H'ing an Ultra Greatsword. That's the point of the Giant Dad build. It's capitalizing on it's high poise and high stun lock damage. A good Giant Dad player will beat a bad CB player, and a good CB player will beat a bad Giant Dad player. If players are equal in skill, then we enter the realm of hypotheticals. As I said, Giant Dad builds aren't the be all, end all. As I mentioned earlier, Black Iron Armor and Lightning Greataxe is actually incredibly powerful, and is a set I used once to defeat some Giant Dad's. It has enough poise to take 1 attack from a 2H Ultra Greatsword swing, like the Chaos Zweihander. Bait the Giant Dad thinking they'll stun lock you. Walk around and backstab them with a maxed Lightning Greataxe with Hornet Ring and you'll basically 1 shot them, as with anything else.

Again, I want to stress that the main point I'm trying to make is that Dark Souls has meta, and has gone through a few metas. Weapons and Spells have been buffed and nerfed, which gives birth to other metas for people to capitalize on. I know for a fact that Zweihander stun locks, but it's very possible you're talking about a meta when they might've nerfed the swing speed on it (similar to how they nerfed the Dark Sword damage and swing speed in DS3). That, or you're thinking about Dark Souls 3, where they purposely made Ultra Greatsword Swing speed slowed down to prevent stun locks, allowing players to dodge roll out after the first initial hit (a lesson they learned from the Giant Dad build). So yes, it's very possible that the meta you're referring to was at a different time then the meta I'm referring too. Ninja Flip ring got nerfed, Tranquil Walk of Peace got nerfed, Wrath of the Gods got nerfed, etc. However, they were all meta at some point in time for their own reasons, and that's what I'm trying to get across.

I can agree to your statements regarding your connection with ESO and Dark Souls. That's mainly something for the OP to understand though. The OP of the topic thinks it's one-sided, where Dark Souls allows you to do whatever you want with whatever kind of set up you want, where ESO doesn't allow that. However, this is not the case. Both Dark Souls and ESO's single player content can be completed naked with no weapons, at the cost of speed and sanity. If you want to do something fast, as you stated, you need proper gear for that, which, again, both Dark Souls and ESO share. So while both are different games and have differences in how boss mechanics are handled (Dark Souls having mechanics achievable with 1 person, while ESO has some mechanics only achievable with multiple people), both have more similarities then the OP thinks. That's the main point I'm trying to get across to them. However, I believe they feel the opposite because they've been involved with bad groups. It's inevitable that you'll eventually run into some toxic people that're elitists and want everyone to know the mechanics of everything and have all the gear that role should have, and pull the numbers that the top 1% pull. However, that's not the case. Everyone was new and inexperienced at some point. Everyone learns at some point. I just believe OP had some bad experiences, which influenced this topic and hammered in the idea that you have to use meta or you're garbage. Totally not true. Optimal? Not at all. Necessary? No. I have almost 42k achievement points. I've done basically everything in the game. I promise the OP that with proper skill and rotation (and a good group, of course, as it's a team oriented game), I could get all the Trifecta's over again wearing some random non-optimal gear. Kag's instead of PFG or Siroria, and like, Idk, Seducer instead of MS. Whitestreak instead of Yoln, and like, Fortified Brass instead of Alkosh. Again, optimal? Not at all. Possible? Absolutely.

LuxLunae · August 2020

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@Auroan

The Zweihänder is too slow to be dangerous to any skilled player. The Chaos Blade, being a katana, is practically unpunishable, especially with the flip ring. A Zweihänder user will never hit a good CB user. In fact, you'll have to try to connect with Black Flame or Great Combustion to catch a fast player.
As for Giantdad, it is not min-maxed. Slap on the Mask of Mother for more HP and put a couple more points in endurance. You can even take points out of vitality for that, you'll still have more HP than Giantdad. But this comes at the cost of a medium roll, making you vulnerable if you need to dodge. If you wanna backstab, use a Bandit's Knife, btw. And chaos infusion was nerfed a long time ago, non-infused weapons give you the most damage.
You don't seem to understand the meta in that game. Reddit has a couple posts explaining things thoroughly, you should check those out.

As for the connection to ESO, my point still stands. Yes, you can "beat" DS1 and ESO with any gear. But if you wanna push the boundaries, you need the best. You're not speedrunning DS1 with the Broken Sword Hilt. You need the Black Knight Halberd from Darkroot Basin or similar. Those challenge runs are your single player competition, btw. Same in ESO, you're not soloing vet DLC dungeons in CP50 gear with a fun build. You build the best, the "meta" setup and then see how much you can perform with it.

That's not the same.

In DS1 I can go through the game with the basic of armor at lvl 1 and finish it. It might take time, but it would get done.

In ESO there are dungeons that rely on a high DPS check no matter what. You cannot slowly fight your way through it. Its DPS NOW OR GTFO.

I am not trying to push a boundary, I am trying to explain why eso will never become something greater.

As the mechanics of the game continue to become more rigid, it loses playstyle identity defined by the players actions. Rather now, ESO playstyle identity is defined by the games sets.

Yup I think that's what I was trying to say. Dark Souls, GTA V, Syphon Filter you can cast away what is equivalent to geared up armor and use strategy and the game mechanics to take down people/ enemies.

Now you are probably saying "dude that just can't happen in MMOs" but I played one way back in 2000 that had this possibility. It was a 2D online game but even if you started with the bare minimum, you could get through the highest content. If your movements and timing were correct.

Lord-Otto · August 2020

I'm not reading all of this. Go to Mugenmonkey, test out the father mask and the mother mask. You'll see. Chaos Blade doesn't bleed the user, it hurts him. 30 points more damage dealt than Uchi, 20 dealt to the user. Good deal, with more range and bleed buildup. Infusions are bad because they have to pass TWO defenses. Your 600 dmg Chaos Zweihänder actually deals only half of its damage because of that. And again, it's too slow to begin with. Look up the weapon tier lists, watch tournaments, read posts from actually skilled players. YOU are completely wrong.

Here:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=805438917

Auroan · August 2020

@LuxLunae

You're missing the point though. You're comparing Single Player content to Multiplayer content. There's not a single enemy in Dark Souls that's specifically designed to have mechanics that require the aid of another player. That would be horrible game design and would break the core function of the game of being able to play and beat it alone. Dark Souls doesn't have a mechanic where you're pinned and you need an ally to free you, or a mechanic where you're marked for death and need to swap aggro with someone else or you get 1 shot. All Dark Souls has is enemies with different variants of Health and Damage, and a moveset that can be dodged or parried. You're comparing apples to cookies. It just doesn't match.

"In DS1 I can go through the game with the basic of armor at lvl 1 and finish it. It might take time, but it would get done."

You can go through ESO with basic armor at level 1 and finish it as well. It will take lots of time, but you can get it done as well.

"In ESO there are dungeons that rely on a high DPS check no matter what. You cannot slowly fight your way through it. Its DPS NOW OR GTFO."

"As the mechanics of the game continue to become more rigid, it loses playstyle identity defined by the players actions. Rather now, ESO playstyle identity is defined by the games sets."

Like I said, you're comparing your Single Player experience with a Multi-Player experience. They're not designed to be the same. And to say that ESO has lost playstyle identity defined by players actions is completely and 100% false. Again, you're thinking in a Single Player mindset. The common issue that drives players away from ESO is they've played Single Player Elder Scrolls titles and they come into ESO as though it's Skyrim online, and that's not what ESO is. ESO isn't a Single Player Elder Scrolls title that happens to have an Online function. It's an MMO. It's designed to have mechanics and drive player interaction. There's Single Player content you can do solo, yes, and they do a good job (IMO) of providing Single and Multiplayer content, but you're comparing things that can't be compared. ESO is an online game, and it's playstyle and identity is defined through teamwork. Again, you're complaining that you can't solo content that was specifically designed to be Multi-Player content and require a team in order to complete. That's simply silly talk.
As I also stated above, gear sets are important, yes, but Player Skill>Gear Sets. A skilled player that knows a proper rotation, how to LA weave, animation cancel, etc. whom is wearing Tank gear will always out DPS an unskilled player that doesn't have a rotation, doesn't know how to LA weave, doesn't animation cancel, etc. even if they're wearing full Gold DPS Meta gear. To say that ESO's playstyle identity is defined by the games gear sets is simply not true. You've probably had poor experiences with Elitists who've shunned you for not pulling as much DPS as what they're use to (Idk, maybe you're pulling 25k instead of 65k) and have shunned you for the sets you wear, and while both are very important and go hand in hand together to create an "optimal" DPS, I can promise you that the players skill will always be more important then the players gear.