Making everything one-shots in VetDLC punish the supports too much

Grandchamp1989 · August 2020

I have tanked most of the vet DLCs multiple times and done 5 on hardmode.
I know my way around tanking, but I'm not the best and don't claim to be.

What lead up to this thread?:
Lately I've been experiencing one of the most annoying bugs for tanks, the block bug.

I literally had to re-log during a vet DLC because my character couldn't block at all
At other times my guy got stamina but randomly drop his block which is so freaking frustrating lol

But this isn't a thread about Zos buggy game, the experience have lead to realize that tanks on Vet DLC does NOT feel like tanks at all, and the problem goes deeper than that.

The Challenge:
It literally doesn't matter if you got 30k health or 60k health, 33k resistances or 20k resistances EVERYTHING and their mother one-shots you.

Heavy attacks from elite adds one shot you, bosses one-shot you, most quick-timed events one-shot you.

Your "tank" is soooo squishy on Vet DLC it's literally just holding block and hoping by your by your lucky star, that your DD's clear the room before your stamina runs out.

You hold 3-4 elite adds and a boss whom all switches between heavy attacking you. And if you get hit ONE TIME your guy falls over... That does not feel like a tank at all....

I know Zos is trying to compete with itself to make every new Vet dungeon harder than the previous and it has basicly reached a point where most Vet DLC in so punishing the vast majority of the playerbase will not complete it, but worst of all... Constantly being one shotted utterly screw over the support roles.

Healers just stand there and watch people get one-shotted, you can not react to it at all. So if 90% of the mechanics one-shot your team you're basicly just standing there like "Nuttin' I could do?" And for good reason.. Why have a healer over a third DD (where everyone sustain themselves) if everything is a one-shot anyway? This is not argumenting against healers, this is calling for making dungeonsinclude the support role in a much more meaningful way.
Tanking is a fight between the stamina meter and hoping Zos game doesn't bug out during important fights

How to change it?
All of these one-shot mechanics make the supports feel less and less relevant, and when everyone is already struggling with finding enough people to play support roles why not "empower" the support classes a bit instead of punishing them. Make them feel needed instead of useless or squishy. I think Zos is really struggling with Support roles, I really do, everything cater to the damage dealing side of the game.

CyberSkooma · August 2020

I would like a list of specifically which enemies you are referring to.

TwinLamps · August 2020

oneshots are boring

Grandchamp1989 · August 2020

CyberSkooma wrote: »

I would like a list of specifically which enemies you are referring to.

Literally every elite add in VET DLC one shots you if you don't block.

My tank got 45k health and 33k (max) resistances with focus in ironclad and he goes down one shot from a single heavy attack.

Doesn't matter if we're talking Depth of Malatar, Ruins of Mazzaton or Bloodroot Forge you get hit in the head by one of the big adds you go down.

Jeremy · August 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

I would like a list of specifically which enemies you are referring to.

Literally every elite add in VET DLC one shots you if you don't block.

My tank got 45k health and 33k (max) resistances with focus in ironclad and he goes down one shot from a single heavy attack.

Doesn't matter if we're talking Depth of Malatar, Ruins of Mazzaton or Bloodroot Forge you get hit in the head by one of the big adds you go down.

I think you can live through some of them at least if you got a damage shield up with like 50k+ health when the heavy attack comes in. But it will be close.

But anyway, I agree with you. The one shot = death attacks are lame, especially when you consider how easy it is to miss a block. Whether it's from a bug or something getting in the way of your camera so you can't see the animation.... sometimes lag can make the animations skip as well. So it's a real issue and I've been convinced for years now it's one of the main reasons more people don't play tanks on this game (I've made several threads on this topic over the years myself). I've seen dozens of newer tanks quit playing the role because they got tired of wiping the group due to missing a block/one-shoted in DLC dungeons.

Any move that can one shot you needs to be well telegraphed and easy to see.

Mindcr0w · August 2020

I don't wanna sound harsh, and maybe I am spoiled by mostly running around with fairly skilled guildies these days, but this really sounds like a "you problem".

Like yes, there are many things that can one shot you, but excluding bugs very few things should one shot you.

If you get one shot when you aren't blocking, learn to block at the right time. If you get one shot through block, learn when to roll dodge. Literally the only time I see these issues come up as a problem is if someone decided to turn an alt into a tank and we're running stuff specifically to give them practice.

If you're struggling on add pulls in something as outdated as RoM it sounds like you just need to up your game, or you support does, or both.

That said, I 100% agree that there is way too much emphasis on DPS in the game's current form. I despise the meta where tanks and healers wear sets designed to buff dps rather than to make themselves better at surviving and healing respectively.

Grandchamp1989 · August 2020

Mindcr0w wrote: »

I don't wanna sound harsh, and maybe I am spoiled by mostly running around with fairly skilled guildies these days, but this really sounds like a "you problem".

Like yes, there are many things that can one shot you, but excluding bugs very few things should one shot you.

If you get one shot when you aren't blocking, learn to block at the right time. If you get one shot through block, learn when to roll dodge. Literally the only time I see these issues come up as a problem is if someone decided to turn an alt into a tank and we're running stuff specifically to give them practice.

If you're struggling on add pulls in something as outdated as RoM it sounds like you just need to up your game, or you support does, or both.

Honestly, that's a fair point, and while I don't agree I made a thread to get some light on the issue.

Personly I think it makes the healer useless and punish the tanks (which there's a severe lack of already) for no good reason.

Punishment for the sake of punishment doesn't make sense to me.

karekiz · August 2020

It seems newish. HA differ based on content. A lot of older content a simple block will even save a DPS. In some content blocking isn't worth the risk compared to dodging even on a tank. Remember you can dodge a HA and avoid 100% of damage.

One shot mechanics are in some dungeons such as Dragonbones being the biggest design of them, but honestly even then it's mostly a player thing. I would take Poison statues any day since you can predict the outcome and play around them.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun · August 2020

I was never a fan of one-shots. MMOs in particular are really bad about leaning on that concept.

And like you said, you don't even feel like a tank anymore. You're just a taunt-monkey at that point.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 2020

Fellow tank player here. I have quite a lot of experience at that role as I tanked pretty much most of dungeons on vet & normal.

I also think that one-shots are quite unfair towards tank. Especially if you consider the fact that as a Tank, you pretty much sacrifice everything in order to have sustain, resistance and health pool.

One-shots simply make "tank" kinda pointless if I can be a dude in medium armour and roll-dodge every one-shot or a mage with shields that will absorb most potential one-shots.

The point is: Playing as a "Tank" does not feel like you are an actual behemoth that can withstand a beating.

Nirntrotter · August 2020

The heavy use of one-shots is imho quite problematic for a game that uses the trinity-model of classes; it rewards DPS burn by skipping mechanics and makes healers in 4man content redundant at best and a liability at worst - 3 DPS and a tank with some self healing between them makes a depressing amount of content easier than going with a healer. Tanks get to pray that their DPS can get the work done before some desync screws them over. It's almost counter intuitive.

Athyrium93 · August 2020

As a healer main I SOOO agree. I can't heal through a one shot. I can't save someone who misses a block or dodge, I'm just a buff b***** for the dps.
I love the few dungeons that have a ton of aoe or poison, it gives me something to do besides rezzing, buffing, and getting yelled at for not saving someone from a one shot.

I wish ZOS would make content that challenged the support roles.

Arunei · August 2020

OHKO mechanics are lazy, imo. There shouldn't be anything that can wipe a player out in one blow, especially not in ESO, where there are a good number of bugs on top of lag that can make you miss one of these things and get taken out by it. Come up with interesting mechanics that having scaling damage that can result in a OHKO if allowed to go on for too long, but don't have any attack instantly result in enough damage that even a lot of seasoned tanks have a hard time with them. It's even worse when it's just trash mobs that can do this as opposed to bosses. Some people might think it's challenging and engaging that trash mobs pose a threat, and their opinion is valid since this sort of thing is objective, but I'll always find OHKO mechanics boring and, again, lazy. It's false difficulty imo, like inflating an enemy's health to make it seem 'harder' without changing anything else about it.

Vaoh · August 2020

This is the biggest complaint regarding group dungeons. Enemy damage output is either so low that a DPS can become the tank, or the damage is so high it oneshots you. So then we end up with 3 DPS/1 Tank groups. As long as minimal offheals are going out and/or the DPS use skills that heal a bit, having a healer is pointless. Healing Debuffs are the only solution - it makes offheals too weak and therefore groups would require a real Healer.

I’d like to see groups able to activate a Sigil at the start of a dungeon (or add a new difficulty above Veteran) where there is something like 80% reduced healing taken/shield strength, 30% increased enemy health. Ofc this difficulty would grant greater rewards, but it would also simply enforce a 2 DPS, 1 Healer, 1 Tank group composition and for everyone to do their roles.

To give an example of how ridiculous it is rn... Vet Falkreath Hold is the monthly dungeon, I’ve soloed every boss including last boss “hard mode” as a DPS when the lowbies from group finder die early on. All because Mighty Chudan and a bit of offheals were all I needed to survive the incoming damage of the boss+enemies, though ofc I had to dodge oneshots aka heavy attacks and block a few other attacks too. Hence why even with Thrassian Stranglers you can feel safe - incoming damage is either negligible enough to offheal through or it’s high enough to oneshot.

gatekeeper13 · August 2020

Totally agree mate. No matter how tanky you are, you get 1-shot like a birdy dd with 8k resistances. Makes zero sense and neutralizes any feeling of "tankiness".

Dont know who came up with that brilliant idea to turn the DLC dungeons into platform mini-games but it's a total failure imho. I mean it's more important for the tank to roll-dodge than anything else.

Still remember when I got 1-shot in vSCP although I was holding block and everyone was saying "block mate!" after i died. I told them I did but still got like 40k dmg. What a joke, makes zero sense.

zvavi · August 2020

I don't feel punished on tank, because you will survive if you know what you are doing.

I mean, I get your point, you don't like when you have high incoming damage, but if there is no high incoming damage, tank becomes boring.
As it is tanks have dynamic role of brawling with the toughest enemies while supporting group. The better you are at mingling with the enemy the more support you can give.

Arunei · August 2020

zvavi wrote: »

I don't feel punished on tank, because you will survive if you know what you are doing.

I mean, I get your point, you don't like when you have high incoming damage, but if there is no high incoming damage, tank becomes boring.
As it is tanks have dynamic role of brawling with the toughest enemies while supporting group. The better you are at mingling with the enemy the more support you can give.

The problem is even people who know what they're doing get wiped out because of things completely out of their control, like the rampant lag and skill firing desyncs going on, or the various bugs with block. There shouldn't be any attack in this game that can OHKO a tank that's built properly, and there shouldn't be any OHKO mechanics in moves in general, since the issues I mentioned before can impact any role.

Also, like someone said earlier, OHKO mechanics encourage lesser use of healers. A healer can't keep someone alive through something that insta-gibs even a well-built experienced tank, so why not just bring a 3rd DPS who can help burn the mobs before they have a chance to use those mechanics?

You don't need high damage or OHKO mechanics for content to be fun, imo. What you need is interesting and engaging mechanics that don't punish and frustrate players when they die to things not because of lack of skill, but because of lack of the game running properly.

madarame_77 · August 2020

I've quit a tank long time ago. I had a decent build, alkosh and other actual sets. But after wiping numerous times in vICP on twins because I had to be in block and run at the same time, I decided it's not worth it. If you stay in block and don't run you die, if you missed blocking one heavy attack from boss while running, you die. I don't know how ppl tank in this game (endgame pve).

ccfeeling · August 2020

All end game players have no problem with that.

Zos wont care about casual players.

zvavi · August 2020

Arunei wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I don't feel punished on tank, because you will survive if you know what you are doing.

I mean, I get your point, you don't like when you have high incoming damage, but if there is no high incoming damage, tank becomes boring.
As it is tanks have dynamic role of brawling with the toughest enemies while supporting group. The better you are at mingling with the enemy the more support you can give.

The problem is even people who know what they're doing get wiped out because of things completely out of their control, like the rampant lag and skill firing desyncs going on, or the various bugs with block. There shouldn't be any attack in this game that can OHKO a tank that's built properly, and there shouldn't be any OHKO mechanics in moves in general, since the issues I mentioned before can impact any role.

Also, like someone said earlier, OHKO mechanics encourage lesser use of healers. A healer can't keep someone alive through something that insta-gibs even a well-built experienced tank, so why not just bring a 3rd DPS who can help burn the mobs before they have a chance to use those mechanics?

You don't need high damage or OHKO mechanics for content to be fun, imo. What you need is interesting and engaging mechanics that don't punish and frustrate players when they die to things not because of lack of skill, but because of lack of the game running properly.

So your point is that one shots shouldn't exist because game is running like crap? It should be a reason to fix the f***ing game, not change it's core to something else.

ccfeeling wrote: »

All end game players have no problem with that.

Zos wont care about casual players.

I am not sure if you are serious or not. I mean, 95% of the game is built for casuals. The only interesting PvE content that exists for "end game players" is vet dlc dungeons & trials. Everything else, almost 100 quests per zone, is boring repetitive anticlimactic nothing can kill you fetch quests.

Psycho_Wes · August 2020

Like people have said, unless it’s a bug issue, it’s a skill issue. I’ve tanked every vet dlc hm with 3 dps running 38k health while in olo and yolna and only couldn’t do frost vault due to the defile that was being constantly put on me. One shots are in most cases easily avoidable if you know what the mobs do and how to counter them.

Psycho_Wes · August 2020

Guess I’m the only one who doesn’t mind one shot mechanics. Guess we know why zenimax stopped putting skins and personalities as rewards for the trifectas and started putting them in the crown store instead 🤷‍♂️ Lol

ssewallb14_ESO · August 2020

Yeah I've always thought the DLCs were disproportionately demanding on the tank. There aren't many dps or heal checks, it's mostly mechanics checks for them, but not for the tank. Tank has to eat heavy attacks that hit for 20-30k through block, max CP, and capped resistances or have enough core mechanic sustain to roll dodge all of them.

It's especially an issue with low CP tanks if we're considering the baseline for these dungeons to be 300CP. I've pugged plenty of DLC with <400 CP dps and healers, if they can do the mechanics they're fine, even without much dps or hps. Not so with the tank. Even if they come with gear and plenty of health they get 1-shot through block by trash mobs or don't have enough core mechanic sustain to reliably roll dodge. If seen this a bunch of times.

It seems like an odd design choice considering the other roles are mostly mechanically punishing rather than build punishing.

JanTanhide · August 2020

Interesting. I have not had this issue (one shot) when Tanking but have had the Block Bug. I record my game play and use a keyboard and mouse overlay which shows keystrokes and mouse button clicks. Why? Because when I am blocking and I still die as if I weren't blocking I want it recorded. The block bug happens quite a bit since ZOS changed the way block works on the Server/Client. I go back and watch the recordings and can see the mouse button for block pushed but my character never blocks in those instances where the block bug occurs. And it occurs more than ever now.

The only dungeon where I have issues with the heavy attack is the final boss in Unhallowed Grave in Hard Mode. In non hard mode it's a joke. In Hard Mode the final boss hits extremely hard and can take 30K or more health in one shot through block. The grasping hand attack hits just as hard in Hard Mode.

But one shot mechanics? Sorry, I disagree. I've tanked every dungeon in game in Vet and most in Hard Mode. The only time I die is when block doesn't work or my timing is off and I do something stupid like roll dodging off the platform in Scalecaller Peak. LOL.

One thing I would like to suggest if you haven't done so is adjust CP for 100% Tanking and survival. Also, I suggest not wearing gear sets that buff other players but instead wear gear sets that help keep your Tank alive. Yes, you may be called "selfish" but your Tank will stay alive and you will be able to do things without a Healer in many cases.

Good luck and Happy Dungeoning!

RebornV3x · August 2020

This is one reason I don't heal Vet DLC dungeons is because of all the one shots that enemies have I can only do so much healing and then get blamed for it when someone goes down.

Playboy_Shrek · August 2020

I think its less "challenges the healer" and more "makes the game a bit too lame" because the mechs are quite simple. dont get one shot. and it makes everything a dps check. dlc dungeons are almost never tank/healer checks. they can absolutely do nothing, helpless in dlc dungeons. they are all dps checks

Playboy_Shrek · August 2020

It makes vet dlc dungeons permablock or die, and wait for dps to clear everything. there are literally no micromechanics involved, theres nothing. elites will one shot you, and you dont wanna take the chance of not blocking and getting potentially stunned or deal with the blocking bug and die if you feel like attacking for resources.

its just really lame that they couldn't get a little more creative to make at least some of these dungeons heal/tank checks that do consistent damage but not one shots that encourages team including dps to be more defensive. but no, they are ALL DPS CHECKS. every single vet dlc dungeon is

paulychan · August 2020

I just wanna throw it out there, no shade, roll dodge is a powerful tool for a tank. If there is a heavy coming in, you can roll dodge through the monster without losing much positioning. A well timed roll dodge is sometimes better than a block. It also trains you to not perma block.

Reverb · August 2020

RebornV3x wrote: »

This is one reason I don't heal Vet DLC dungeons is because of all the one shots that enemies have I can only do so much healing and then get blamed for it when someone goes down.

Actually, I’d wager that a bigger reason you don’t heal vDLC anymore is because the groups who regularly run them prefer to not have a healer. For all the reasons defined above, tank+ 3dps is the preferred group makeup. Zeni has made healers useless (or a liability) in all but trials, and continue making it worse with each change.

Another reason healers are less effective and desirable for 4-man HM content is that mechanics force spreading out, but all heals have been narrowed to be directional and unique. Team mates in 3 completely different places: One orb active, whose direction do you send it? One spring active, where to you put it? No outgoing heals when you have to dodge a mechanic, because you aren’t directly facing your DD. Better for a dps to expect no external heals and be entirely self reliant, and just focus on the burn.

RebornV3x · August 2020

Reverb wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

This is one reason I don't heal Vet DLC dungeons is because of all the one shots that enemies have I can only do so much healing and then get blamed for it when someone goes down.

Actually, I’d wager that a bigger reason you don’t heal vDLC anymore is because the groups who regularly run them prefer to not have a healer. For all the reasons defined above, tank+ 3dps is the preferred group makeup. Zeni has made healers useless (or a liability) in all but trials, and continue making it worse with each change.

Another reason healers are less effective and desirable for 4-man HM content is that mechanics force spreading out, but all heals have been narrowed to be directional and unique. Team mates in 3 completely different places: One orb active, whose direction do you send it? One spring active, where to you put it? No outgoing heals when you have to dodge a mechanic, because you aren’t directly facing your DD. Better for a dps to expect no external heals and be entirely self reliant, and just focus on the burn.

True just another reason why I normally go in to dungeons with 3 DD and a Tank, with 3rd DD usually being a Templar having Breath of Life and Shards while mainly dosing helps but isn't always required either.

Tammany · August 2020

First time i've seen that interesting mechanic i knew some1 gonna cry about it, here is the topic.
Damn fun to see people getting oneshoted in pugs cause they have used to faceroll traditional vet dungeons.