How is it really, for the non-meta builds at end game?

witchdoctor · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

You are right tho... talking to meta-heads is like talking to a brick wall

When you paint everyone with a broad brush, don't get pissy when its used on you.

Aznarb · July 2020

TBH I don't understand all these "metaboy" who still blame @amm7sb14_ESO for his play choice.

He don't stop to tell you that it doesn't aim for GH/GS or even hard HM trial content, so, why don't you let him play the way he want ?
I play mostly meta too and I don't care what this guy play, it don't impact me and his team seem to be like-minded, so what's the problem ?
He's totally right to said he don't need to be meta for 90% of the content.

It's like most of you forget what a game is about trying to make yourself better person than him lel.

Also in my opinion, locking some content/success behind a stupidly high DPS wall is an extremely lazy design.
Hardest content should be about mechanic, not just stacking dps as much as you can, it's just lame, but that another discussion.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

witchdoctor wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

You are right tho... talking to meta-heads is like talking to a brick wall

When you paint everyone with a broad brush, don't get pissy when its used on you.

I'm not pissy. Just the ones that can't fathom a playstyle outside of what Alcast or their raid leader told them to do.

Paramedicus · July 2020

@amm7sb14_ESO
Comment on "there is no such thing like selfish tanks in ESO":
I think you can actually distinguish selfish tank setup from non selfish build, but you need to take one important factor that is usually lost in similar discussions. That is: experience/competence of a specific tank. If player is new and inexperienced, then it will be more logical (and beneficial for everyone) if he uses build that benefits mostly him. Because dead tank is always the worst buildt : P So he may choose to morph Ransack instead of Pierce Armor, or use Plague Doctor instead of Ebon. But after some time when he becomes more experienced next logical step would be to tweak build to offer more support to the team. So he trades PC for Ebon with some cost in survivability (ie acts unselfish). When he becomes even more experienced he can trade even more of his survivability for support, and thats why you see tanks wearing DD sets or tank/healer hybrids.

My only complain about meta chase is that some people forget that meta standards are set mostly by teams who run trials for scores, and thus those meta standards arent often viable for most players (aka averange player) and for other content than trials.

But i find stubbornness in being non-meta hipster (vs chasing meta blindly) equally annoying :>

Grianasteri · July 2020

Its entirely possible to complete most end game content, with off meta builds.

Obviously you still need to be mindful of the role, and fulfil tanking, healing or dps adequately, that's a given. But you don't need to use a meta build to do so. Most of my 18 characters are off meta, but still awesome fun and perfectly capable of engaging in vet dungeons and trials.

For more elite groups, off meta is likely to leave gaps in composition and dps etc, so there are usually requirements and expectations.

I guess it also can depend on what you consider end game. For me I consider end game veteran DLC dungeon hard modes, and Veteran Trial score running.

Astrid · July 2020

witchdoctor wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

You people who get upset over meta to this extent without really giving it a shot and seeing the results are sorta lost on me. Good luck tho.

@Astrid

That's because you are building rocket ships;

Astrid wrote: »

... I’m GH/TTT/IR ...

And they are building paper airplanes.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

... [a]nd I dont even know what you mean when you say GH / TTT / IR ...

(Genuinely, no offence to paper airplanes).

You and they are literally the non-overlapping circles in a Venn Diagram. You speak Greek, they speak Mandarin. You are on a paleo diet, they are vegan.

Because I like to think that ... most people ... are inherently rational, I believe the reason for their view of your world (and all the anti-META, anti-raider, cheat, etc. nonsense) comes from the tryhards who couldn't get a seat with you, and so are 'stuck' flying with them and do nothing but *** in their aisle seats being Karens/Chads to the flight attendant.

Other than forum posts like these, your world and their's never cross.

@witchdoctor
What a breath of fresh air you are in this topic and I completely agree.
It’s a total difference of opinion that would never usually meet but I’m struggling to figure out how people can be so wholly against something if they’ve clearly never even tried it and seen the results for themselves instead of boycotting because of the bad apples in the bunch. It’s baffling.
I’m well aware you can do any dungeons, even the easier veteran trials with your eyes closed and whatever gear you want.
That’s.. not end game.. and truthfully this entire post just seems like bait now that I look back on it as OP had no intention of taking any opinion into consideration that wasn’t his own.
Ah well, c’est la vie.

Thankyou for putting things into perspective though.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

*I* didn't -ask- how will a non-meta tank do in end game.

The title is literally “How is it really, for the non-meta builds at end game?” and you’re a tank. Makes sense no? You claiming they do just fine.. so why ask? Surely you’d know the state of builds at end game if you’re succeeding on one?

You seem to be just looking for an argument with those who disagree with you or are looking for validation from those who also preach non meta. What a waste of a thread if you’re not taking anything away from the opposing side or people who have completed the content at “end game”.

Multiple edits bc my dyslexia is going crazy.

FrancisCrawford · July 2020

Eliran wrote: »

Non meta builds are no builds.

For example, you cant be a Stamina NB without Lok/Relequen combo, you will simply do 50% less damage and then people think you suck.

I very much doubt those numbers.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Astrid wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

You people who get upset over meta to this extent without really giving it a shot and seeing the results are sorta lost on me. Good luck tho.

@Astrid

That's because you are building rocket ships;

Astrid wrote: »

... I’m GH/TTT/IR ...

And they are building paper airplanes.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

... [a]nd I dont even know what you mean when you say GH / TTT / IR ...

(Genuinely, no offence to paper airplanes).

You and they are literally the non-overlapping circles in a Venn Diagram. You speak Greek, they speak Mandarin. You are on a paleo diet, they are vegan.

Because I like to think that ... most people ... are inherently rational, I believe the reason for their view of your world (and all the anti-META, anti-raider, cheat, etc. nonsense) comes from the tryhards who couldn't get a seat with you, and so are 'stuck' flying with them and do nothing but *** in their aisle seats being Karens/Chads to the flight attendant.

Other than forum posts like these, your world and their's never cross.

@witchdoctor
What a breath of fresh air you are in this topic and I completely agree.
It’s a total difference of opinion that would never usually meet but I’m struggling to figure out how people can be so wholly against something if they’ve clearly never even tried it and seen the results for themselves instead of boycotting because of the bad apples in the bunch. It’s baffling.
I’m well aware you can do any dungeons, even the easier veteran trials with your eyes closed and whatever gear you want.
That’s.. not end game.. and truthfully this entire post just seems like bait now that I look back on it as OP had no intention of taking any opinion into consideration that wasn’t his own.
Ah well, c’est la vie.

Thankyou for putting things into perspective though.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

*I* didn't -ask- how will a non-meta tank do in end game.

The title is literally “How is it really, for the non-meta builds at end game?” and you’re a tank. Makes sense no? You claiming they do just fine.. so why ask? Surely you’d know the state of builds at end game if you’re succeeding on one?

You seem to be just looking for an argument with those who disagree with you or are looking for validation from those who also preach non meta. What a waste of a thread if you’re not taking anything away from the opposing side or people who have completed the content at “end game”.

Multiple edits bc my dyslexia is going crazy.

I didnt create the thread

Astrid · July 2020

@amm7sb14_ESO My apologies for that. Applies to the OP in that case, they’re essentially saying the same things as you which is great for you guys personally. More power to you both for running what you want. Just don’t think it’s gonna be optimal myself in raid scenarios but live and let live. I can’t be bothered with this topic anymore.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Astrid wrote: »

@amm7sb14_ESO My apologies for that. Applies to the OP in that case, they’re essentially saying the same things as you which is great for you guys personally. More power to you both for running what you want. Just don’t think it’s gonna be optimal myself in raid scenarios but live and let live. I can’t be bothered with this topic anymore.

And as I said, that full optimization counts if you are shooting for leaderboard runs, speed runs, achievement runs, HM's, etc. but doesn't matter if you're just shooting for content clears.

But apparently to others, that makes me a pissy hipster.

You're right about one thing tho this thread is going in circles and nobody is going to change their mind. So to follow up on the venn diagram example, you have your groups and I have mine and we can both clear content the way we want to.

colossalvoids · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

@amm7sb14_ESO My apologies for that. Applies to the OP in that case, they’re essentially saying the same things as you which is great for you guys personally. More power to you both for running what you want. Just don’t think it’s gonna be optimal myself in raid scenarios but live and let live. I can’t be bothered with this topic anymore.

And as I said, that full optimization counts if you are shooting for leaderboard runs, speed runs, achievement runs, HM's, etc. but doesn't matter if you're just shooting for content clears.

But apparently to others, that makes me a pissy hipster.

You're right about one thing tho this thread is going in circles and nobody is going to change their mind. So to follow up on the venn diagram example, you have your groups and I have mine and we can both clear content the way we want to.

...or if someone have different mindset to yours, for example to be most helpful and effective to your group making sacrifices and being able to adapt quickly to have most pleasant experience possible for everyone.

Only thing that makes you, erm, a "pissy hipster" is hijacking the thread to preach your way when name of the topic was saying "end game" so attracted people who are into that actual content which implies working as a single mechanism.

... And to the actual topic there is no actual set builds for endgame, each boss have its own build variations depending on your concrete role or a class (interrupter, portals etc) and still have variations for skills and gear used as you can easily spot on esologs also. All gear are just tools and player makes most out of it.

That also doesn't exclude your nord stamplar or argonian sorc from ttt/ir/gh runs if you found team suiting your needs and abilities, it was never a problem really. The problem starts when people refuse to adapt or contribute a bit more than just show up for the run in time.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

colossalvoids wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Astrid wrote: »

@amm7sb14_ESO My apologies for that. Applies to the OP in that case, they’re essentially saying the same things as you which is great for you guys personally. More power to you both for running what you want. Just don’t think it’s gonna be optimal myself in raid scenarios but live and let live. I can’t be bothered with this topic anymore.

And as I said, that full optimization counts if you are shooting for leaderboard runs, speed runs, achievement runs, HM's, etc. but doesn't matter if you're just shooting for content clears.

But apparently to others, that makes me a pissy hipster.

You're right about one thing tho this thread is going in circles and nobody is going to change their mind. So to follow up on the venn diagram example, you have your groups and I have mine and we can both clear content the way we want to.

...or if someone have different mindset to yours, for example to be most helpful and effective to your group making sacrifices and being able to adapt quickly to have most pleasant experience possible for everyone.

Only thing that makes you, erm, a "pissy hipster" is hijacking the thread to preach your way when name of the topic was saying "end game" so attracted people who are into that actual content which implies working as a single mechanism.

But I am playing end game content, so my comments aren't a hijacking. They are letting OP know that he can play and participate in end game content without a fully min / maxed meta build, and do so successfully.

Grianasteri · July 2020

Paramedicus wrote: »

@amm7sb14_ESO

My only complain about meta chase is that some people forget that meta standards are set mostly by teams who run trials for scores, and thus those meta standards arent often viable for most players (aka averange player) and for other content than trials.

This ^

Literally, the vast majority of the ESO player base do NOT engage in the kind of end game content where having a meta build actually matters. Therefore chasing meta is largely, for most people, actually less important than they think and can sometimes be counter productive.

For instance, unless your Light Attack weaving is on point, there is little point in you slotting Relequen. You may be better off with a different set and ignoring that particular meta.

karekiz · July 2020

Content clears = Most likely won't stop you.
Score topping = math rules.

If you define endgame as just clears then sure.
If you define endgame as topping scores than no.

Thats probably a different league though to be honest. Its like saying WoW race to worlds first is the only definition of endgame in WOW.

I would say clearing VET HM trials <Non score runs> counts as Endgame <VCR +3 etc>.

Everest_Lionheart · July 2020

I did some experimenting on this last night because I am tweaking some builds to squeeze a little more DPS out of them. I swapped one meta build for an off meta to try something new. It required a shuffle of a few skills and leveling up a few others. In the end the DPS landed on the same numbers albeit with less practice on the newer setup and 2 skills that I only just morphed. What went away however was my sustain problem. As it stands now I prefer the off meta with lower magicka and infinite sustain (without BFB I might add or inner light slotted) to the meta which required heavy attacks to keep up. The meta bursts a lot harder but the dmg output from the off version is steady.

I had a similar experience on my other characters as well. It still comes down to rotation, rss management and keeping your buffs/dots up at all times. DPS wise you can use more basic gear like Hundings/Julianos plus one of the easier to obtain overland sets like MS/spinners for mag and Briarheart/Spriggans for stam and still do OK. As you upgrade to the better dungeon/trial sets, add monster pieces and upgrade jewelry your damage will grow.

As I say it all takes time. We will all get there no matter which build we run so long as we put in some effort.

honey_badger82 · July 2020

I get a lot of surprise for my Imperial Templar tank/ dps hybrid. I even do vet content with him and carry at times. I haven't tried DLC vet dungeons with him yet and I just don't do trials so cant's speak about performance there.

Doing a 5med/ 2 heavy armor setup with Selenes monster set I still get about 31k resistance on my sword and board tank bar due to the Grave Guardian set. The 2hand back bar easily out-damages mid CP level DPS. Popping reviving barrier at the right moments often stops party wipes and being able to crank out damage when last one standing against a nearly dead boss has saved a wipe too more than once.

I am missing some of the optimal tank skills as I don't use a stun besides bash or a range taunt, stampede is my gap closer and how I grab initial aggro. Despite it he is still super effective and makes mob fights much quicker while still being able to hold a boss and survive.

newtinmpls · July 2020

Meta ... non-meta...

I think the most honest and accurate answer is "it depends".

Recently I wandered through a thread where there was a discussion of people getting thrown out of groups (Vet in particular) and was it due to low CP.

I think the consensus was slowly resolving to be that IF the person was booted after the first boss fight had gone badly, then it wasn't "just" the CP, it was that the fight had gone poorly and that person's performance in that fight was seriously being questioned.

I like tanking, and have been trying out different builds. Yesterday I went into non-Vet Darkshade Caverns II.

I was using a newer (not fully skilled out) character who was a necro tank, and I'm still not personally highly honed at that combo. The other people were an assortment of "not max CP" (lowest I think was CP teens, highest was 400 something), and I could tell right away that the fights were taking a lot longer than usual, so I know the total DPS was lower than "ideal"

The heals were a bit off too, but I spec seriously into survivability as any tank, so I was okay.

We wiped a couple of times at the "Patriarch" but everyone took it well, and we pitched in.

Accidentally reset the "room of dwemer critters" fight, but eventually got through it.

Just could not do the last boss. First the poison was too much, so we camped the levers. Then the adds were just regularly overwhelming us. I and others tried to do some tweaking, to try to improve things, but we just couldn't quite do it.

Not quite enough DPS, not quite enough heals, I wasn't a good enough tank to organize the fight well enough to keep them all alive.

And that's okay. We (or some version of "us") will gain more skills, more skill points, more experience, tweak a rotation and eventually it will work out.

So really my answer to any version of "How well is a non-meta build going to be" is to ask
1-Be specific - what trial? What boss?
2-Go there, do your non-meta thing and see how it goes
3-Adjust as needed, or as enjoyed

MorganaLaVey · July 2020

I think there is a big misunderstanding here. It bases on this:

#70

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

To this point, I have been able to complete up to Craglorn vet trial (AA and Hel Ra) and every trial on normal.

[...]

However, I haven't done vet trials beyond Craglorn yet, so we'll see how those go.

#194

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

But I am playing end game content, so my comments aren't a hijacking. They are letting OP know that he can play and participate in end game content without a fully min / maxed meta build, and do so successfully.

#80

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm just in a casual guild, we've been taking our shot at vet Craglorn trials for fun, and succeeding. Idk what vets beyond Craglorn will look like. We aren't pushing leaderboards, just enjoy playing the content and the additional challenge of vet.

#145

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

If the max deeps of the meta set up is 90k, and the max deeps of an off meta set up is 75k, then it will be much harder to hit a 60k minimum parse with the 75k set up.

#147

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

If you want to push leaderboards? Then absolutely, run your metas and hit your 60k minimum parses even tho 30k dps is all that's needed for any content in the game.

But if you just want to play and have fun, you literally need 0 of that gear - assuming that your builds are designed *intentionally*

Craglorn Raids are NOT Endgame and After Craglorn Raids does NOT come pushing leaderboards!!!
There is a BIG Gap between Basegame and DLC - BIG Gap - DLC HM - BIG Gap - TTT/ GH/ IR - Gap? - Score Runs.
EDIT: Good luck with 30k dps in vDLC Raids even more so in HM's

So when "Meta-Boys" say you should use "Meta" Sets, they mean:
You can for sure complete DLC HM Raids with "non-Meta" Sets but
most Groups allready have enough Truble to complete DLC HM Raids with optimal Group Composition ("Meta") so if you want to use "non-Meta" sets it will even be harder for you or youre Group. Are you OK with making it even Harder for you/r Group?

They dont Say you have to use "Meta" in vFG1 or vHRC

A nother misunderstanding is this:
#104

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

And yes, even a "selfish" set like Leeching can help my group because I am putting less strain on my healers, letting them distribute their resources to the DD's and help buff their damage because I am taking care of my own survival.

Because most Endgame Tanks dont need Leeching, they can handle the Raid just fine without it and most Endgame Healer can Handle the "strain" while still being able to distribute enoug resources to the DD's. Leeching is just unnesserery.

#166

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I'd much rather group with a 30k - 40k dps that has some survivability than group with a 70k - 90k dps that dies when the wind shifts. In the long run, the 30k - 40k dps will be doing more damage and contributing more to the group than the 90k dps.

Endgame-Players much rather group with a 70k - 90k dps that has some survivability than group with a 70k - 90k dps that dies when the wind shifts and much much rather than group with a 30k - 40k dps that dies when the wind shifts

You dont need to choose between high DPS & Skill/ survivability, you can have both.

exeeter702 · July 2020

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

I think there is a big misunderstanding here. It bases on this:
#70

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

To this point, I have been able to complete up to Craglorn vet trial (AA and Hel Ra) and every trial on normal.

[...]

However, I haven't done vet trials beyond Craglorn yet, so we'll see how those go.

#194

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

But I am playing end game content, so my comments aren't a hijacking. They are letting OP know that he can play and participate in end game content without a fully min / maxed meta build, and do so successfully.

#80

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm just in a casual guild, we've been taking our shot at vet Craglorn trials for fun, and succeeding. Idk what vets beyond Craglorn will look like. We aren't pushing leaderboards, just enjoy playing the content and the additional challenge of vet.

#145

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

If the max deeps of the meta set up is 90k, and the max deeps of an off meta set up is 75k, then it will be much harder to hit a 60k minimum parse with the 75k set up.

#147

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

If you want to push leaderboards? Then absolutely, run your metas and hit your 60k minimum parses even tho 30k dps is all that's needed for any content in the game.

But if you just want to play and have fun, you literally need 0 of that gear - assuming that your builds are designed *intentionally*

Craglorn Raids are NOT Endgame and After Craglorn Raids does NOT come pushing leaderboards!!!
There is a BIG Gap between Basegame and DLC - BIG Gap - DLC HM - BIG Gap - TTT/ GH/ IR - Gap? - Score Runs.
EDIT: Good luck with 30k dps in vDLC Raids even more so in HM's

So when "Meta-Boys" say you should use "Meta" Sets, they mean:
You can for sure complete DLC HM Raids with "non-Meta" Sets but
most Groups allready have enough Truble to complete DLC HM Raids with optimal Group Composition ("Meta") so if you want to use "non-Meta" sets it will even be harder for you or youre Group. Are you OK with making it even Harder for you/r Group?

They dont Say you have to use "Meta" in vFG1 or vHRC

A nother misunderstanding is this:
#104

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

And yes, even a "selfish" set like Leeching can help my group because I am putting less strain on my healers, letting them distribute their resources to the DD's and help buff their damage because I am taking care of my own survival.

Because most Endgame Tanks dont need Leeching, they can handle the Raid just fine without it and most Endgame Healer can Handle the "strain" while still being able to distribute enoug resources to the DD's. Leeching is just unnesserery.

#166

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I'd much rather group with a 30k - 40k dps that has some survivability than group with a 70k - 90k dps that dies when the wind shifts. In the long run, the 30k - 40k dps will be doing more damage and contributing more to the group than the 90k dps.

Endgame-Players much rather group with a 70k - 90k dps that has some survivability than group with a 70k - 90k dps that dies when the wind shifts and much much rather than group with a 30k - 40k dps that dies when the wind shifts

You dont need to choose between high DPS & Skill/ survivability, you can have both.

/thread

Tigerseye · July 2020

Conduit0 wrote: »

I really don't understand this attitude of wanting to participate in content that requires a high degree of team cooperation and coordination but not wanting to be a team player. It's like wanting to play football but showing up wearing hockey gear and getting mad when you're told you can't bring your stick and skates onto the field.

I think that is only, really, a fair analogy if people are turning up with a lot of skills and/or in gear that is not intended for their particular role/build.

So, a DPS turning up with only healer, or tank gear and/or skills, or a Stam DPS turning up in Magicka gear.

I don't think you can really accuse a person, who correctly turns up with (mainly) skills, and gear (especially in sets), that the game provides for their resource type and role, of "wearing hockey gear" to a football game, just because that particular gear and/or those particular skills aren't deemed as meta.

If some skills and/or gear (when correctly slotted/worn) aren't as good as others, that is a failure on ZOS's behalf, not the player's.

...and that's even leaving out the (sound) idea of some utility being a good thing.

In my opinion, DPS boosts (even if they are paired with a speed boost) should not be slottable skills - they should be passives, leaving room for a utility skill (like a heal) on each bar.

...and in fact, I would go further and say that the game should be redesigned so that all DPS have to pick one utility skill (ideally a heal) on each bar, to increase survivability, as standard.

Algorax · July 2020

Paramedicus wrote: »

@Algorax
I agree. I use Alcast's builds as example just because they are so popular, but I don't think his web site is bad. He actually promotes there some off meta builds and gives a list of various DD/tank/healer sets (which may be not complete, but w/e), and -most importantly- his builds are good enough, because they work. Problem is inflexibility of people who focus on that one 'end-game' setup from sheet w/o figuring it out why (and where) it works.

But i also see inflexibility in some off-meta people, who want to be off-meta "just because". You get that vibe of stubbornness and selfishness (or even elitism) from them. Some of them will tell you straight that "they will play however they want, because they paid for the game" (I almost always see that quote where there is discussion about meta). This attitude wouldn't be too bad, if their ideas were actually functional. But prob is, that most often they aren't, and since those guys don't pay me for their company... I don't feel obligated to tolerate their tarded way of playing the game.

Well at the end of the day every off meta build is put on a test and there is where you draw the line.
If one of those "elitist" or wannabe creative comes up with a setting that he just either didn't plan properly or has not the skill to perform correctly then it just dig his own grave.

Rowjoh · July 2020

fishing with a friend is great in fancy dress

Tigerseye · July 2020

p00tx wrote: »

Here's the deal: In real end game, no one has a "main" We all have a bunch of characters carefully designed to fit a specific role in a very specific group for a particular piece of content. If you're a healer, you're expected to have a selection of healers to choose from depending on what the group needs. You play for the group, not individual roleplay desires.

Absolutely true, I'm sure, but that is exactly what kills the idea of endgame, here, for most people (even for the few who might be interested in it, otherwise).

It's a very outdated design.

Other games realised the problem with it and made adjustments accordingly, years ago.

Raudgrani · July 2020

You can of course get carried, if that's what you mean. In some cases people don't care even a bit, about your race and gear etc., and you still get a place in vet trials and such. I have recently been ASKED to join a trials group (which I have), despite them knowing very well that I run pretty "off meta" builds most of the time. And not just good old Craglorn ones, but all the trials.
They know me personally, and know I would never bring anything to the table, that didn't make any sense at all. On Xbox EU, there's a guy who at least have been among the very best on the server (even the best for some time), running exclusively Nords - healer, tank, magicka/stam DD's.

You will find out pretty quick. I've hear some stories about groups going like "You need 80k damage on a non trial dummy, using non 'dummy food', and with actual trial gear. Make a video and send us" (i.e. using like Iceheart and blue bistat or purple recovery food). In such a group, don't think for once you'll be able to run non-meta builds. They will require you to change gear IN trials, and perhaps even CP too.

I tend to use pretty non glass-cannon builds, with like average damage. Which is great for 4-man content, but perhaps not so good for 12-man ones. I can of course switch out some gear depending on content.
I do a lot of world boss soloing, doing Harrowstorms on like 2 guys, VDSA and VBRP - my playstyle is pretty much "I don't want a healer stuck up my ***". I don't do the most damage, but I'm not the guy who needs resurrects, because when I'm dead - there's no one left to resurrect me! ;-D

Today, Mooon Hunter Keep vet/hm. Boss at below 20% health, everyone dead but me. Mobs enraged, I still manage to avoid them and get tank AND one DD up - then I get worst trash mobs down, we get our act together and finish the dungeon. I would neeeeeever been able to do that on any of my more "meta approved" builds. You can reason you don't get there as easily with meta setups, but much of the time you still do.

Raudgrani · July 2020

Eliran wrote: »

Non meta builds are no builds.

For example, you cant be a Stamina NB without Lok/Relequen combo, you will simply do 50% less damage and then people think you suck.

Even though I do run this on my StamNB, this is simply not true. I don't even know if you are serious about 50%, but it's actually pretty far from the truth. With the coming change to Warmachine/Master Architect, it will even be FAR from the truth. I alternate my StamNB (which is a Dunmer too, shame on me....) between Warmachine and Lokke, and if you don't have a very high uptime on synergies, WM is actually a way better choice. I keep Relequen at all times because obvious on that particular build, but Lokke is not such a given choice.

resdayn00 · July 2020

There is a really simple answer to this question:

If you aim for leaderboards, don’t play off-meta, otherwise you can complete any content with any race/class combination. If you play a niche build, you might want to inform your team and see if they are open to adapting, but most of the content in the game doesn’t really care.

redshirt_49 · July 2020

It's fine. The idea behind the meta-builds has min-maxing at its' core to maximize DPS/HPS or health/shields.
That is not to say that you're ineffective if you're not doing this or don't want to invest the time to get the harder to acquire item sets. Generally, as long as you're not having problems handling the trash mobs on your own your build is fine.
If you're going to run vets or trials for achievements though, expect to be met with skepticism.

As long as your build is functional, it doesn't really matter what you are using. A lot of the overworld item sets go underappreciated in spite of their incredible potential and a few other skillines aren't used much in spite of their useful abilities.

You can easily make your own builds by looking at your gear and CP distributions and then taking a look through all your skills to see what synergizes well with what. Save overworld sets you are dropped while questing, they might come in handy later. Experiment a little, as long as the skill you're using is something you're benefitting from there is little reason not to try it out. Vampire skills have introduced lots of new fun little ways to combine skills for instance.

This will make you a better player in the long run, especially in PVP where what is "best" is far more subjective, because rather than letting a guide dictate your setup and gear with little understanding of WHY it works, doing it yourself lets you become intimate with the relation between penetration, critical rating and weapon/spell damage and how they can work with and against each other. In the end, you'll end up with a better idea of what gear sets are good for you and which ones are not without having to consult a guide or the forums, because you'll have a better understanding of the mechanics that makes something good or bad.

I highly recommend experimentation and leave the BoS-stuff to the trial achievement runners.

ZOS_Lunar · July 2020

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Eliran · July 2020

Non meta builds are no builds.

For example, you cant be a Stamina NB without Lok/Relequen combo, you will simply do 50% less damage and then people think you suck.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

Non meta builds are no builds.

For example, you cant be a Stamina NB without Lok/Relequen combo, you will simply do 50% less damage and then people think you suck.

Even though I do run this on my StamNB, this is simply not true. I don't even know if you are serious about 50%, but it's actually pretty far from the truth. With the coming change to Warmachine/Master Architect, it will even be FAR from the truth. I alternate my StamNB (which is a Dunmer too, shame on me....) between Warmachine and Lokke, and if you don't have a very high uptime on synergies, WM is actually a way better choice. I keep Relequen at all times because obvious on that particular build, but Lokke is not such a given choice.

So you replace Lokk with Warmachine, its the same concept really .. literally ex meta.

You cant play without meta.

I actually almost uploaded a youtube video about it but decided not to because I cant be arsed the trolls, all those who I even tried to talk to about it just flamed me with no sense, being hypocrites even when the truth is in their face.

Same build, same amount of actions, with Hunding rage/night mother (pretty much the first set combo almost any stam NB goes for) I am capped on 32k DPS on a trial dummy, while with lokke/relequen I do 60k+

So yeah, to all those who asked, YES 50%.

Also CP play a huge role, I estimated that:

200 CP = 22.2% extra damage from base.

400 CP = 47.2% extra damage from base.

600 CP = 56% extra damage from base.

810 CP = 84% extra damage from base (ironically the biggest jump % wise)

That's for STAMINA NIGHTBLADE *** haven't checked other classes.

CP include sustain + % based perks that bump each other, all test where done on a trial dummy from full to 0.

The game is simply not "new player" friendly, the advantages you get at max CP are just way too high, and the saddest part is, the older players don't realize it and being over elitist, thinking they are special.

Remember how hard vWGT was example? it is still nightmare hard for low CP, yet max CP people can by all means solo it with their super trial gear/high CP.

Heck, me and my friend duo queue random vWGT HM with pledge few days ago, ,Molag Kena died so fast, she went in and out of her adds phase, not ONCE we've seen the lighting walls, and yes on hardmode where it should've been doable walls.

And that's without even counting Weaving, which is the most broken mechanic in the game by far and new players aren't aware of, you can't even break 45k without it.

Raudgrani · July 2020

Eliran wrote: »

Non meta builds are no builds.

For example, you cant be a Stamina NB without Lok/Relequen combo, you will simply do 50% less damage and then people think you suck.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

Non meta builds are no builds.

For example, you cant be a Stamina NB without Lok/Relequen combo, you will simply do 50% less damage and then people think you suck.

Even though I do run this on my StamNB, this is simply not true. I don't even know if you are serious about 50%, but it's actually pretty far from the truth. With the coming change to Warmachine/Master Architect, it will even be FAR from the truth. I alternate my StamNB (which is a Dunmer too, shame on me....) between Warmachine and Lokke, and if you don't have a very high uptime on synergies, WM is actually a way better choice. I keep Relequen at all times because obvious on that particular build, but Lokke is not such a given choice.

So you replace Lokk with Warmachine, its the same concept really .. literally ex meta.

You cant play without meta.

I actually almost uploaded a youtube video about it but decided not to because I cant be arsed the trolls, all those who I even tried to talk to about it just flamed me with no sense, being hypocrites even when the truth is in their face.

Same build, same amount of actions, with Hunding rage/night mother (pretty much the first set combo almost any stam NB goes for) I am capped on 32k DPS on a trial dummy, while with lokke/relequen I do 60k+

So yeah, to all those who asked, YES 50%.

Also CP play a huge role, I estimated that:

200 CP = 22.2% extra damage from base.

400 CP = 47.2% extra damage from base.

600 CP = 56% extra damage from base.

810 CP = 84% extra damage from base (ironically the biggest jump % wise)

That's for STAMINA NIGHTBLADE *** haven't checked other classes.

CP include sustain + % based perks that bump each other, all test where done on a trial dummy from full to 0.

The game is simply not "new player" friendly, the advantages you get at max CP are just way too high, and the saddest part is, the older players don't realize it and being over elitist, thinking they are special.

Remember how hard vWGT was example? it is still nightmare hard for low CP, yet max CP people can by all means solo it with their super trial gear/high CP.

Heck, me and my friend duo queue random vWGT HM with pledge few days ago, ,Molag Kena died so fast, she went in and out of her adds phase, not ONCE we've seen the lighting walls, and yes on hardmode where it should've been doable walls.

And that's without even counting Weaving, which is the most broken mechanic in the game by far and new players aren't aware of, you can't even break 45k without it.

Wow....

Let's say you had 32k DPS, then suddenly you got +60k DPS (let's say 61k for easy peazy), that's a whooping +90% increase - because of a set giving you 15% increased damage, if you maintain a constant uptime! I am truly impressed...

And no, running Lokke and Warmachine is not "the same", it's two different sets - giving the same buff under completely different conditions, and under different duration. One of them also benefits other group members, the other does not. Now it seems HOF sets ar being subject to change, which might even make these two HOF sets better than the Sunspire one. But of course, as you do *NINETY* percent more damage with Lokke on, by all means - stay with it.

Wonder why they bother going about with multiple changes to Thrassian Stranglers, when we have sets buffing your damage by 90% in the game. Weird one...