Crown Store Monetization: Taking the Ram by the Horns

Devilfish85 · July 2020

There is no reason for this mount to cost twice as much as most of the others aside from "Yeah, we give you 1500 crowns per month with your Plus subscription, but we also bumped up the prices of everything by 1500 crowns". Really disappointed in this aspect of an otherwise amazing game.

Between this and the crown crate drop rates, ZOS's monetization scheme is targetting the worst addictive personalities who will spend hundreds in a month and ruin themselves just to get a tiny portion of what is advertised each month. The sheer amount of content shown for the crates shows that drop rates could double or triple and a user with 300 euros to burn on crates each month would still come nowhere close to exhausting all of the possible rewards. What are you saving it all for? Do you think theyre going to drop 3000 next month and miss their mortgage payment?

ZOS, I love your game and I understand the need to make a profit; I'm actually a AAA game industry professional myself. Monetization is absolutely a part of games-as-a-service models. But the randomization aspect of crown crates is no different from the other industry loot boxes that have been causing so much controversy and even legislation in the last years. The only alternative you offer is exhorbitantly priced direct purchases from the crown store.

One could say, "Wait a minute, these prices are comparable to other MMOs currently", but they would have to keep in mind that other MMOs dont gate as much content behind these purchases. You can earn -hundreds- of mounts and pets in-game in one of the leading competitors, and purchase something really special now and then for prices similar to ESOs. In the other big competitor, mounts that cost this much are truly unique from a technical standpoint, and if they aren't, they dont cost as much. This carries over in almost every aspect of the game, from housing to quality of life to character customization. There is far more gated behind spending real money, and far more than that gated behind gambling with real money on lootboxes, than similar successful MMOs.

I sincerely hope that this situation changes. How? Less content exclusive lootboxes, more in the store at any given time, and prices that reflect how much content is gated behind spending real money. I will never spend 30 euros on a single mount. Or 40-50 on a MOTIF of all things. I surely will NOT spend hundreds on crown crates for an infinitismal chance I might get something I want.

And yet, I have the disposable income. I'd spend 50-60 per month on a couple of mounts, a pet, and a motif of my choice, easily. I'll still only have a tiny portion of your total content, plenty more to spend money on... but the difference is I'll finally be spending along with thousands of others who feel the same. Isn't that what you want in the first place?

Avariprivateer · July 2020

Even if they're expensive, I could live with upfront prices on store items, albeit without the blink-and-you-miss-it flash sales, as long as the loot boxes go away, as they are the prime offenders.

For what it's worth the crown crates could be made into a non-gambling mystery pot by removing the junk filler matériel, making drop rates 1:1 and making a choose-your-mount card as a drop option. If Zenimax wanted to increase the price per box to balance their revenue that would be fine

idk · July 2020

There are and have been other mounts priced that high. It seems enough players are willing to pay that much which from a business perspective means it is priced just fine.

I think Mercedes are priced too high.

Devilfish85 · July 2020

idk wrote: »

There are and have been other mounts priced that high. It seems enough players are willing to pay that much which from a business perspective means it is priced just fine.

I think Mercedes are priced too high.

I think you've only read the first paragraph. This was not about the individual price of this mount, rather that subject lead into the real issue; as I clearly said, these prices per individual mount are not unusual in this or other games. What I said is that the amount of content gated behind real money, or worse, loot boxes, in comparison to competing MMOs, is disproportionate with the pricing.

Your Mercedes example doesnt quite fit, because we are not talking about something physical that you own. We're talking about digital content; you own nothing after these purchases, much less something that can be physically demonstrated as a better product. Once the game shuts down, none of this continues to exist.There are no production or material costs involved here for each ram distributed. Only the arbitrary decision that they want more money.

So yes, 1000 people are dumb enough to buy a mount at this price. But if they cut the price in half and 3000 people buy it because it's no longer overpriced, who wins? Everybody.

idk · July 2020

Devilfish85 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

There are and have been other mounts priced that high. It seems enough players are willing to pay that much which from a business perspective means it is priced just fine.

I think Mercedes are priced too high.

I think you've only read the first paragraph. This was not about the individual price of this mount, rather that subject lead into the real issue; as I clearly said, these prices per individual mount are not unusual in this or other games. What I said is that the amount of content gated behind real money, or worse, loot boxes, in comparison to competing MMOs, is disproportionate with the pricing.

Your Mercedes example doesnt quite fit, because we are not talking about something physical that you own. We're talking about digital content; you own nothing after these purchases, much less something that can be physically demonstrated as a better product. Once the game shuts down, none of this continues to exist.There are no production or material costs involved here for each ram distributed. Only the arbitrary decision that they want more money.

So yes, 1000 people are dumb enough to buy a mount at this price. But if they cut the price in half and 3000 people buy it because it's no longer overpriced, who wins? Everybody.

Considering the meandering aspect of the OP I settled on one. Since you are a GaaS professional you are aware that subscriptions (and especially the purchase of DLCs at such a discounted rate) do not pay the full rent which is why monetization via the cash shops is becoming so much more prevalent in games. This is what actually pays the salaries of professionals like yourself yet you are complaining about it.

Hey, I am not all that into the cash shop and I pretty much stopped buying mounts and such long ago.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · July 2020

[snip]

[edit to add:] I actually really liked the goat. I thought it was funny/cute. Saw the price though... and refuse to spend crowns on it.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Devilfish85 · July 2020

I meandered from specific example to overarching concept to solution, I guess. A, B, C. It was a pretty straight-line meander.

Yes, my professional expertise in the subject is exactly what gives me the understanding to know when to call [snip]. If you followed my point at all, I postulated that ZOS would make MORE money, not less, when more people are willing to spend. It's a curve, with the right balance brigning in the highest returns, and I'm suggesting that they are veering too far to one side. You can't honestly be trying to argue that lootboxes are good and crown store items should be expensive, when you yourself are an example of the effect trhe current prices have. It's not worth your money, so you don't spend it there.

When I suggest making everything free and doing away with in-game transactions, then you can call me out as some kind fool who doesnt know where his own salary comes from. I offered my perspective and a proposed solution.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

ThisOnePosts · July 2020

It doesn't need a ton of special FX to make this mount worth it or not. The detail is nice, it's a different model than other mounts so far and an up-front price is actually very much welcomed.

I get what you are saying, but overall it's fair to those who have been playing long enough to remember how pricey the nightmare courser was originally lol (as well as a few other mounts) - in comparison to the average mount price.

Mounts were typically 900 crowns at the time of release and that was almost 3x the price.

tomofhyrule · July 2020

I have no problem with a cosmetics store to a point, but lately I've been getting a bit disheartened with how things are going... and I've also noticed I'm buying crowns way less than I used to.

I think there are a few problems here that are all coming at the same time:

New basic Crown Store items are on the expensive side. They're not overpriced per se, but if the standard range for a mount (for example) is 1800-3000, we're getting the 3000 one.
Loads of items going up are exclusive for less than a week, usually three days, and then not seen for over a year and counting. Ostensibly to prod people with FOMO, but the short time periods and lack of repeats mean that there are many potential customers who completely missed out for good. As a sidenote, the timer will prod sales, so anything that leaves the store needs to get one (the Standing Wave left the store without a timer, and I'd have bought it if I knew it was leaving)
Requests are ignored. There are people begging for things on this forum, namely the PTS or NPC hairstyles, and none are showing at all. Since some are incredibly popular requests and the forum is only a small section of the playerbase, it's likely that releasing these items will result in many purchases.
Things rotate out more often than rotating in. We've had a few months when a handful of costumes or motifs rotated out (and then showed up in the next sets of crates), but only a few things in the store come in permanently. As such, if you started playing later (considering there's an influx of new customers after every chapter purchase), you're barred from about 70% of the stuff that's been available in the store.
Hiding many items behind crown crates. Everyone can have their own argument about lootboxes, but they could be improved without removing them. It seems that new content will mostly go into a lootbox rather than the store (some exceptions apply), which also means that new content tends to be themed to the box rather than general use. It's almost as if ZOS expects most of the Crown Store revenue to be from only the crates (which is likely), but the randomness also turns people off. If more new content were made available (or more old content offered in the store) rather than showing 90% of the new stuff into the next crate season, people may be more inclined to buy.
I notice they've even stopped giving us crate samples. I get the idea is to get us to buy the crates outright, but daily rewards over a year ago would give several crates. We also used to get crates from collector's editions. Lately, we've only gotten a preview crate when a new season's out, and the Greymoor edition came with only a preview...that was all the same for everyone and had nothing deconstructable in it. Perhaps this is leaning toward trying to give people less of a taste of gambling in the first place, but it also means that people don't have many gems, so many may just choose not to buy crates for the chance of getting gems from them.

I know I've pretty well stopped buying from the store, and I haven't really bought crowns in ages by now. And there are several things I'd really want to buy if they ever came to the store.

I'd like to see the store rotate more often. Sure, some things could be permanent like the wedding outfits and the basic horses, but then rotate in some of the older content more often. There's even usually excitement to see old crate seasons for a week - that could be done with the monster arms sets as well.

Not everyone is a mount- or pet-fiend. I tend to ignore mounts/pets/furnishings since they're not that interesting for me. I'm much more interested in character cosmetics. Sadly most of those end up in crates or just not being (re)released.

I remember when I used to get excited looking at the Showcase articles. Now, it's mostly just a few things - there's a lot less than used to be shown off - and it always seems lacking. I also remember that we used to have times when things weren't explicitly said in the showcase - most showcase items run Thursday to Monday, but nothing was ever mentioned for Monday-Thursday. We'd usually get a surprise older costume or something similar to show back up. Now, there are no surprises - if there's a time in the showcase without something, it means we get a current store item (usually the Starter Pack, Adept) on sale for 44% off.

Taleof2Cities · July 2020

Devilfish85 wrote: »

Yes, my professional expertise in the subject is exactly what gives me the understanding to know when to call [snip]. If you followed my point at all, I postulated that ZOS would make MORE money, not less, when more people are willing to spend. It's a curve, with the right balance brigning in the highest returns, and I'm suggesting that they are veering too far to one side. You can't honestly be trying to argue that lootboxes are good and crown store items should be expensive, when you yourself are an example of the effect trhe current prices have. It's not worth your money, so you don't spend it there.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

I'm not seeing how this statement is any different from every other "ban loot crates" and "crown prices are too high" forums thread that has come before.

Not every business model is the same.

If you are willing to share your insider ZOS financials that show the curve is uneven between crates and direct purchase ... then forum-goers might be behind you.

Until then, there's really no way you can side step what @idk said.

If the revenue professionals at ZOS deem it fit for players to pay "X" for the Yorgrim River Ram, then it is priced appropriately based on their business model.

idk · July 2020

Devilfish85 wrote: »

I meandered from specific example to overarching concept to solution, I guess. A, B, C. It was a pretty straight-line meander.

Yes, my professional expertise in the subject is exactly what gives me the understanding to know when to call [snip]. If you followed my point at all, I postulated that ZOS would make MORE money, not less, when more people are willing to spend. It's a curve, with the right balance brigning in the highest returns, and I'm suggesting that they are veering too far to one side. You can't honestly be trying to argue that lootboxes are good and crown store items should be expensive, when you yourself are an example of the effect trhe current prices have. It's not worth your money, so you don't spend it there.

When I suggest making everything free and doing away with in-game transactions, then you can call me out as some kind fool who doesnt know where his own salary comes from. I offered my perspective and a proposed solution.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

The assumption made in this comment comes off as though the business people at Zos are bewildered with the very basic economic principles mentioned in the post quoted.

I would suggest that Robert Altman and Cindy Tallent have a better understanding of the economics and business side of gaming than anyone that posts in this forum. After all, Robert has been a major part of building up one of the largest privately-held gaming companies in the world and Cindy is clearly doing a great job as CFO of this 2.5 billion USD (2016 est. value) company.

I am pretty sure they understand very well the relationship between price and demand and can hire talent qualified enough to figure out to determine an optimal price. Just FYI. Cindy Tallent has worked in Finance for various companies as VP and EVP for almost three decades since she left Price Waterhouse in the early 90s. Probably in the top 1% for understanding finance and economics. I am pretty sure she understands the basic economic principles noted above.

Devilfish85 · July 2020

You might be surprised to learn that there are no wizards in the industry. The two people you mention are absolutely qualified to do what they do, but theyre still human, as are all of my colleagues no matter how long they've been in the game. And humans communicate their opinions with eachother to make change and solve issues. That's the idea of a forum.

In this post, I expressed my opinion that things could be better and a suggestion of how. Thus far your arguments are that Mercedes products are expensive so you don't buy them, you don't use the cash shop anyway, and the specific qualifications of certain ZOS employees to make you seem more informed than I. I kind of feel like you're arguing just out of habit. You've never once said that you agree with the current pricing, only that others know better than you and I'm (strongly implied) foolish for posting my opinion.

I have nothing to "sidestep" here as someone put it. If you don't like my opinion, state yours. Trying to poke holes in mine while actively distancing yourself from the subject at hand in every post doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

Devilfish85 · July 2020

Oh, I do apologize to ZOS for the accidental censor bypass, didn't intend that!

Hanokihs · July 2020

The thing about putting items in-game versus the crown shop is that, as soon as you lock cool things behind gameplay, every person on the forums who hates the given activity will bubble up to the surface to make dozens of threads incessantly complaining about it. So at the very least, you have to put an equivalent (preferably better) item in the shop so that people who don't want yet another thing to grind for don't have to be annoyed by it. Like, I know you can argue that the point of a game is to be played and all, but the fun/tedium balance is hard to achieve, and once you swing the wrong way, people get resentful and leave.

If they lower the price, nobody will want it. Humans associate low prices with low quality; there's no reason for it, our monkey brains are just stupid and inherently self-detrimental. Google it; I'm sure someone much smarter than me has said it in a far more scholarly way somewhere.

If they don't put items on a timer, nobody will buy them. It just be like that; Google that, too, same reason applies.

Also, the vast majority of things sold for crowns can be bought for in-game gold, provided one isn't just against the principle of a cash shop or crate mechanic in and of itself. If that's the case, abandon all hope; the company isn't anywhere close to having your interests at heart. (Not you-you, by the way, just a general statement of personhood).

Ultimately, ZoS wants money. They want all the money, they want it right now. The most effective, efficient way to get it is to cast a big net and catch as many money-fish as they can in one swoop. Of course, there's a theoretical possibility that they can catch more money-fish if they use many smaller nets over a longer period of time, but by then, they could've just made another big net, so why bother with looking for money-fish who may or may not even be swimming in this part of the ocean by then, when they can scoop up guaranteed money-fish at this very moment?

ETA: Wait for the reskin of this mount that's got an edgier design and farts a color. I can almost guarantee it'll be at least 1K crowns more expensive than the ram/goat (because a lot of people think it looks like a goat even though it has RAM written on it) we have.

Elsonso · July 2020

Devilfish85 wrote: »

So yes, 1000 people are dumb enough to buy a mount at this price. But if they cut the price in half and 3000 people buy it because it's no longer overpriced, who wins? Everybody.

You don't know that. What happens if they cut the price in half, but twice as many people don't buy it? Sure, more people buy it, but ZOS loses.

Kittytravel · July 2020

Avariprivateer wrote: »

Even if they're expensive, I could live with upfront prices on store items, albeit without the blink-and-you-miss-it flash sales, as long as the loot boxes go away, as they are the prime offenders.

For what it's worth the crown crates could be made into a non-gambling mystery pot by removing the junk filler matériel, making drop rates 1:1 and making a choose-your-mount card as a drop option. If Zenimax wanted to increase the price per box to balance their revenue that would be fine

Crown Crates would be a much less grevious offender if the drop rates were balanced at all.
The fact that "Radiant Apex" drops can only occur on Bonus Cards for example.
Or how "Apex Drops" can only drop on card 2 or bonus cards.
Every reward should have a chance to drop on every card; not an equal chance but it shouldn't be as dishonest as gambling on 1-2 cards for the item you want.

Elsonso · July 2020

Kittytravel wrote: »

Crown Crates would be a much less grevious offender if the drop rates were balanced at all.
The fact that "Radiant Apex" drops can only occur on Bonus Cards for example.
Or how "Apex Drops" can only drop on card 2 or bonus cards.
Every reward should have a chance to drop on every card; not an equal chance but it shouldn't be as dishonest as gambling on 1-2 cards for the item you want.

The drop rate is the drop rate. It does not matter whether the reward arrives on Card 1, Card 2, a Bonus Card, or flies in carried by a Dovah-fly with sparkles following it. Even if all the the drops could come from any card, the drop rate would still be the same. They would adjust it to be that way.

I think I get what you are asking for, though, and you might as well just say it. Increase the drop rate.

Kittytravel · July 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

I think I get what you are asking for, though, and you might as well just say it. Increase the drop rate.

No I specifically meant just make the drops able to come from all the cards even if the drop rates are adjusted to be the "same" though there isn't a way to do that; even if it's at a 0.01% chance to get apex from any card that still means there is an Infinitesimal chance to get two apex rewards in one crate.

DarkLordLegion · July 2020

@Devilfish85

Drop rates of these crate boxes are balanced, in a way of offering a player to trade their item in for Crown Gems, Crown Store's Secondary currency. This will also help out the Crown Sellers, aka players, who bought the Crowns to sell, in order to earn Gold, the in-game currency. Therefore, if ZoS increased the rate of certain items appearing, in a favor for what you want, it would actual hurt more to those who are trying to making earnings of Gold, in-game currency. You also have to think about those other players are spending their hard time in gathering enough gold to buy a certain amount of crowns.

Hämähäkki · July 2020

I think there was a time when mounts used to cost even more. If I remember right, the dro m'athra Senche used to cost 4k crowns when it came out.

Nevertheless they are way to expensive.

NavalOffisah · July 2020

Kittytravel wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

I think I get what you are asking for, though, and you might as well just say it. Increase the drop rate.

No I specifically meant just make the drops able to come from all the cards even if the drop rates are adjusted to be the "same" though there isn't a way to do that; even if it's at a 0.01% chance to get apex from any card that still means there is an Infinitesimal chance to get two apex rewards in one crate.

That's not true it could easily be coded to not allow more than one apex per pack. As Elsonso said it doesn't matter how the drops appear or which cards reveal the best reward - the drop rate is the drop rate. Everything in front of it is for show (the excitement of seeing a bonus card for example)

Elsonso · July 2020

Kittytravel wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

I think I get what you are asking for, though, and you might as well just say it. Increase the drop rate.

No I specifically meant just make the drops able to come from all the cards even if the drop rates are adjusted to be the "same" though there isn't a way to do that; even if it's at a 0.01% chance to get apex from any card that still means there is an Infinitesimal chance to get two apex rewards in one crate.

I have a feeling that the reason for the bonus card is so that you do not get two of those in one crate.

dhboy123 · July 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

Devilfish85 wrote: »

So yes, 1000 people are dumb enough to buy a mount at this price. But if they cut the price in half and 3000 people buy it because it's no longer overpriced, who wins? Everybody.

You don't know that. What happens if they cut the price in half, but twice as many people don't buy it? Sure, more people buy it, but ZOS loses.

Prices will keep going up and up then.

3000 crowns which is almost £20 for a mount is ludicrous.

kinguardian · July 2020

I love most the mounts and the pets. I am not a fan of insects and guar type though. And I like to collect most of them. I was ill last week and when I started the game up I saw the saint bernard which made me really happy and when I saw the buck I thought yesss. Until I saw the price of the buck that is. No not for me.

It looks nice but not 3000 crowns nice.

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO · July 2020

Recently i tried my first crown crate so started taking the idea seriously rather than ignoring it..

I think it comes down to how you look at the entire concept. Are these offerings intended to something for YOU, or are they are first there to serve someone else?

I put up a thread asking for more info.. and in that i learned that people actually exist that spend up to thousands on a crate. This provided the logic to completely close topic:

- Crates themselves will never go away. Think about how many normal spenders does it take to make the equivalent of one "special" person. It seems really obvious that given how the store is balanced, they'll make more money off preying on gamblers than they will with ethical purchases.. We can't make up that shortfall i think.
- The odds of getting a good item will never get better. Related to the above, they've gone all in on the specials. It doesn't make sense to prey nicely when they're preying, because they can. Its going to happen either way so its probably more of a measure to guarantee the trap actually works.

The more you think about it, its pretty inevitable, while this makes the crown store rarely for us, i dont think we can come up with a win / win situation in return for zenimax to stop preying on specials.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil · July 2020

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO wrote: »

Recently i tried my first crown crate so started taking the idea seriously rather than ignoring it..

I think it comes down to how you look at the entire concept. Are these offerings intended to something for YOU, or are they are first there to serve someone else?

I put up a thread asking for more info.. and in that i learned that people actually exist that spend up to thousands on a crate. This provided the logic to completely close topic:

- Crates themselves will never go away. Think about how many normal spenders does it take to make the equivalent of one "special" person. It seems really obvious that given how the store is balanced, they'll make more money off preying on gamblers than they will with ethical purchases.. We can't make up that shortfall i think.
- The odds of getting a good item will never get better. Related to the above, they've gone all in on the specials. It doesn't make sense to prey nicely when they're preying, because they can. Its going to happen either way so its probably more of a measure to guarantee the trap actually works.

The more you think about it, its pretty inevitable, while this makes the crown store rarely for us, i dont think we can come up with a win / win situation in return for zenimax to stop preying on specials.

Everything you just said is exactly why something needs to change. Why things are slowly changing in other countries. Will it be enough to ban crates in video games? Probably not, but giving up and accepting things how they are just because something unethical is successful is not the answer either. The more people lay down for companies to do what they want with their customers/player base the more they get away with it, and the more other companies will follow suit.

I cannot mention enough how EA changed their tune when players eviscerated them for using loot crates in Battlefront 2. Does an MMO need money to continuously support servers and bring new content? Yes. But this is not the way. And how do they repay us? By putting more and more into crates, instead of using that money to enhance the game further for all. Obviously, they are making a lot of money of these chance purchase scam crates. Where is that money going then? Investors pockets? Youtube channels? PvP, and even PvE is starting to suffer from major performance issues. Is any money going towards a bigger team to tackle that?

It costs them nothing to try and promote sales via other ethical means. They already occasionally reduce the cost of crown, why not also occasionally reduce the price tag of crown items (i.e. all crown items cost 15% less crowns)? Its not like they have to worry about cost of materials, labor, etc..... You already paid the graphic artist, coder, etc. and now you have virtual products you magically replicate upon purchase.

Yes, they come out with a few measly items outside of crates, but the trend is obvious: crates are their priority. And the items they DO release *cough* ram *cough* are stupidly over priced.