How is it really, for the non-meta builds at end game?

Mettaricana · May 2020

I run a bosmer stam sorc everyone else says run orc. I blow through vma no issues clear trials fine but unlike the orc i never have to stop and heavy attack for resources with 2300 stam reco with nothing but food(dubious/arteum), class, and racial passives

Varana · May 2020

Starlock wrote: »

In seriousness, though, the term "endgame" confuses the crap out of me. To me, those words mashed together imply the end of the game. You know, an actual end? Game complete? Time for new game plus, or play through number two? Or just playing a different game? What kids these days call "endgame" is really just repetitive, grindy content that exists for... honestly, I haven't quite figured that one out yet. Probably never will.

It is one of those things where you can see a fundamental difference between single-player (i.e. actual

) RPGs, and multi-player online RPGs.
In single-player, levelling a character is the game. When you reach level cap (if there even is one), it's a sure sign that you should wrap this character up, and start a new one.
In multi-player, levelling is a chore to get through until you reach level cap and start with the actual game. Yes, you can play ESO like a single-player game and happily quest away, you can do various dungeons and PvP below level cap as training, and ESO's battle-scaling tries to hide the issue a bit, but the advanced multiplayer part comes in only after you've hit the end.

It's not about "kids these days". They're completely alien approaches to a game, dictated by genre conventions.

laksikus · May 2020

Pvp is the true endgame.
And there is no real meta in pvp. (apart from stamcro meta, but as long as you are a stamcro race doesnt matter xD)

Princess_Ciri · May 2020

'end game' is really broad and it totally depends on who you play with.

If you're in an end game guild for PvE who are set on getting world record scores then you're going to be using whatever gets the best results. However if you're in a guild that do 'end game' content like veteran trials but for completion only, then you are going to find plenty of guilds who let you bring whatever you like.

There are probably also some other guilds in the middle (like mine) where I let people play what they want as long as they do well on it.

phileunderx2 · May 2020

My necromancer healer is a nord and she does just fine in vet content. Even vet dlc content.

MEBengalsFan2001 · May 2020

Great players find what works for them regardless of the meta. Than they out perform the meta specific build. I have seen some great players do great things with non-meta builds in ESO and other games. If you know how to play and play well who cares what you play.

kylewwefan · May 2020

Your biggest obstacle in endgame PvE, is getting a group.

There’s loads of people that understand hitting 80k on the trial dummy has nothing at all to do with they’re endgame PvE.

Your build can make a massive difference on target dummies yet still be completely effective and viable in content.

Your goals should be clearing content and enjoying the company of those you surround yourself with.

Clear content then get better with it. Evaluate where you stand.

Knightpanther · May 2020

Chelo wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Hey OP come to Cyrodiil, we don't care what your build or gear is, we are totally inclusive in fact you will often get praise for trying something different.

If you do no CP campaign there is no set cookie cutter build because shock horror its actually down to how good you are as a player (hard concept to grasp coming from dungeons!).

Be Safe, come to PvP and let your hair down !!

Sadly if you want to try PvP builds, you have to do PvE, since 90% of the gear in this game come from PvE.

For example I did a PvP build with Icy Conjuror and have to farm Frostvault for a week...

Your right to a certain degree, i tried a Netch's Touch build which took me a couple of weeks to farm but on Normal its not that challenging just time consuming.
At the moment though you can get decent builds from crafted sets or stupidly good overland quested/dropped sets like Crafty if your a finger waggler.

Im using Ancient Dragonguard with Crafty and swap out monster sets depending on how i feel and whilst im never going to have my name sung alongside Ragnar Lothbrok i can hold my own both solo and in a group.

Arguably the best PvP set atm is crafted and wrecks *** on a stamina build - New Moon Acolyte.

Be Safe

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

newtinmpls wrote: »

To some extent this question is hard to ask without giving more specifics.

Like... I'm starting to level a Breton Necromancer, and wondering IF longer term/advanced content, could she do well as a Magicka Tank.

Haven't really looked at builds for that yet.

So can you give an example of what you are thinking?

I have a Breton Necromancer mag tank who is also a Vampire. I have "off-meta" stat distribution (34 mag, 20 health, 10 stam), and currently running "off-meta" sets (Leeching Plate, Akaviri Dragonguard, Lord Warden), with a Resto staff back bar instead of Ice / Lightning

To this point, I have been able to complete up to Craglorn vet trial (AA and Hel Ra) and every trial on normal.

Buffed, I am running about 40k health, max resistances, 2k+ spell damage. If I die, it is typically due to not understanding mechanics, or due to making a mistake. My build has not held me back, to this point.

However, I haven't done vet trials beyond Craglorn yet, so we'll see how those go.

I hate the term "selfish tank" because my "selfish" sets (I.E. Leeching) can help keep me alive, allowing my healers to spend their resources elsewhere, or Akaviri Dragonguard helps me pop ults faster which can buff my party (War Horn) or debuff mobs and bosses (Glacial Colossus) more frequently, adding to higher DPS, so I don't feel like that is "selfish".

That said, there are situations where those "selfish" sets won't even help me. I.E. Leeching Plate is hardly going to benefit me during a single target dragon boss fight in Sunspire. So I don't have any problems toying around with my build to help my own performance as well as my group's. The thing that I hate is being *told* what to run - i.e. if I'm not running some combination of Yolnakhriin, Galenwe, or Alkosh, I basically have no place in a trial group. Or groups that mandate the makeup of the group, like requiring minimum and maximum requirements of specific classes in specific roles and what not. I hate that sort of gameplay design when it boils down that specifically.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Glurin wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

One prime example are the tanks with 60k hp who think that taunting and staying alive is tanking.

That actually is tanking. Pretty much by definition.

It's not great tanking, or the most efficient, but it is tanking.

Well, unless he's dragging that boss right into the DPS and healer while he's at it I suppose. Otherwise, yeah. Keep the boss on you, stay alive, aim him away from everybody else. That's tanking in a nutshell. Everything else is icing on the cake.

I agree, but the ESO community does not.

The ESO community says that if tanks aren't wearing Alkosh (not even a tank set) and Galenwe, then we have no place in the raid group.

xaraan · July 2020

Few answers depending on how deep the questions is:

Does it matter? sure in some situations.

First off, if you aren't doing Hard Mode Vet trials, then the answer is mostly no.
-Maybe if you are going for some really hard challenge like Unchained in BRP. And maybe you'll have issues with more toxic people just doing the newest 4 man HM vet dungeons too, but for the most part even then it doesn't make much difference.

And even at vetHM trial end game, it depends on a few things: For example in support it effects you more than the team, so if you have your bosmer tank it won't really effect the team if you can still get the job done, you may only be making things a little harder on yourself. If you struggle to the point where you have to change your gear just to deal with things though and drop gear optimal for the raid, then we are into 'effecting the team' territory.

Mostly people will nit pick it when it comes to DPS. Sure, some will say it doesn't matter much if you pick High Elf or Orc for a magicka sorc b/c the racials are only XX amount, but it does effect it more than they often let on and you will notice a difference in a raid group that is actively working on progress/builds/achievements. If you are as good as everyone else in a top guild on an Orc MagSorc, you'll still be better than most players on the meta race, but you'll always be the guy at the bottom of the DPS in that group every time they look at performance. Or, if you are in a good group and landing at the bottom or middle of the DPS anyhow, being on a meta race may bump you up a notch, even if it's due to better resource management and not just pure damage buffs. But if you get the job done and your team doesn't care, then it's all good IMO. But if things are a challenge and they start looking at who isn't bringing as much as everyone else to the table, you can stand out. Again, this is going to be for HMvet Trials, anyone nitpicking over anything less than that should chill and to a degree even some of those guys need to chill.

I will say, I've noticed the people that worry about it the most outside of just their own performance are the groups that are not going to be great groups in the long run. Usually the top teams just end up with players that care about every little min max in their own right and you don't have to badger them into it, and it's the teams that want to be like those teams that end up stressing over it. The same guys that copy the strats we've all seen in the top teams vids and can't handle it if they run with another team that does a different strat. They just can't imagine it done a different way, so that same mentality will extend to builds. On the flip side of that, the players that are so anti-meta they reject any and all advice that can often help them don't do themselves any favors either.

Girl_Number8 · July 2020

If you’re in a progression group than yes it is very important. Your trials guild will help you in this.

If it is just vet trials not trying to achieve anything beyond a clear, it is not important at all.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

xaraan wrote: »

Few answers depending on how deep the questions is:

Does it matter? sure in some situations.

First off, if you aren't doing Hard Mode Vet trials, then the answer is mostly no.
-Maybe if you are going for some really hard challenge like Unchained in BRP. And maybe you'll have issues with more toxic people just doing the newest 4 man HM vet dungeons too, but for the most part even then it doesn't make much difference.

And even at vetHM trial end game, it depends on a few things: For example in support it effects you more than the team, so if you have your bosmer tank it won't really effect the team if you can still get the job done, you may only be making things a little harder on yourself. If you struggle to the point where you have to change your gear just to deal with things though and drop gear optimal for the raid, then we are into 'effecting the team' territory.

Mostly people will nit pick it when it comes to DPS. Sure, some will say it doesn't matter much if you pick High Elf or Orc for a magicka sorc b/c the racials are only XX amount, but it does effect it more than they often let on and you will notice a difference in a raid group that is actively working on progress/builds/achievements. If you are as good as everyone else in a top guild on an Orc MagSorc, you'll still be better than most players on the meta race, but you'll always be the guy at the bottom of the DPS in that group every time they look at performance. Or, if you are in a good group and landing at the bottom or middle of the DPS anyhow, being on a meta race may bump you up a notch, even if it's due to better resource management and not just pure damage buffs. But if you get the job done and your team doesn't care, then it's all good IMO. But if things are a challenge and they start looking at who isn't bringing as much as everyone else to the table, you can stand out. Again, this is going to be for HMvet Trials, anyone nitpicking over anything less than that should chill and to a degree even some of those guys need to chill.

I will say, I've noticed the people that worry about it the most outside of just their own performance are the groups that are not going to be great groups in the long run. Usually the top teams just end up with players that care about every little min max in their own right and you don't have to badger them into it, and it's the teams that want to be like those teams that end up stressing over it. The same guys that copy the strats we've all seen in the top teams vids and can't handle it if they run with another team that does a different strat. They just can't imagine it done a different way, so that same mentality will extend to builds. On the flip side of that, the players that are so anti-meta they reject any and all advice that can often help them don't do themselves any favors either.

I fall somewhere in the middle of this.

I hate "meta" builds. I don't like being told by someone else how to play my own character. That entirely defeats the purpose, imo, of creating and playing my own character. That defeats the purpose of giving people choices to play as. At that point, you might as well eliminate race, class, sets, and skills altogether at that point, and just have 4 character options:

-Tank
-Stamina DPS
-Magicka DPS
-Healer

All come pre-equipped with their specific stats, skills, and gear to be used, and it can't be swapped out or alternated, because they are already pre-set to the "meta".

Does that sound like a fun game? If not, then you know why I am anti-meta.

On the flip side, I do aspire to at least play and complete vet trials. I don't care about leaderboards, I don't care about score pushing, I don't care about high end achievements, or anything like that. I just enjoy the experience of playing through the trials, and appreciate the additional challenge that comes from vet levels as opposed to normal levels (which I can almost clear in my sleep, at this point)

While I am anti-meta, I *do* acknowledge and agree that I need to build *intentionally*

I main a tank, so I do need to build intentionally to have survivability, crowd control, buffs, and debuffs. I am fine with doing that.

What I am not fine with is being told that the only way to provide those is to wear Galenwe and Alkosh, and that any form of self buff or survivability is "selfish".

I can buff and help my group in a lot of ways. I can use my totem to give protection to group members. I can use Lord Warden or Grave Guardian to give resistances. I can use Akaviri Dragonguard to give higher uptime on War Horn or Major Vulnerability. Brands of Imperium can give damage shields to my group. I can use Dragon's Defilement to give additional resistance drop. Hell, I've even had instances where my trial group *told* me to keep Leeching on, because my max survivability was the key, not the extra damage from my Yolnakhriin set. Something like Leeching helps me not strain the healer's resources as heavily.

There is no need to saying that Alkosh, Galenwe, and Thurvokin has to be the one and only set up for a tank in content. And people telling me that's what I have to be running is what bothers me about meta.

I don't want to scoreboard or leaderboard push, I don't care about achievements, I just want to play the game in a way that is fun for me. Being like everyone else is not fun. It takes away the main thing I love about this game, which is having a personalized character to represent me in a larger world.

According to a lot of the meta people, I have no place in this game.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

If you’re in a progression group than yes it is very important. Your trials guild will help you in this.

If it is just vet trials not trying to achieve anything beyond a clear, it is not important at all.

This is my objective.

This is why I have little to no interest in the "meta" sets that don't fit my playstyle or character theme.

StarOfElyon · July 2020

As someone who is leveling an Altmer necro-hybrid, it's always on my mind - I'm always conscious that I'm not doing the peak damage that an Orc Stam build or an Altmer Sorc could do.

There's a certain amount of guilt that comes with playing something that isn't optimal, or performing at that level. It doesn't help that some people will also tea-bag you because your non-meta build can't compete on the same level as their meta build. Because in some people's minds builds = skill.

Girl_Number8 · July 2020

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

If you’re in a progression group than yes it is very important. Your trials guild will help you in this.

If it is just vet trials not trying to achieve anything beyond a clear, it is not important at all.

This is my objective.

This is why I have little to no interest in the "meta" sets that don't fit my playstyle or character theme.

You will be fine not running bis or having a perfect rotation. Imo, it is your team that matters the most.

exeeter702 · July 2020

If I can tank vet trials on a NB tank, anyone can.

Likewise DK healer is absolutely viable from a numbers perspective.

Astrid · July 2020

Race is the only thing you can slightly get away with in serious veteran trials teams. Even then, it depends on your role. Your dps want to be absolutely perfect down to the race - supports have a little more flexibility provided you can perform and maintain buffs/debuffs tank/heal/kite appropriately without being a burden to the group. Damage is more noticeable than that random High elf tank. Sets and class need to be coordinated and adhered to, and everyone’s got a role within certain fights you have to prepare for. Everything else doesn’t really class as end game imo. Dungeons you can do whatever the hell pleases you.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

If you’re in a progression group than yes it is very important. Your trials guild will help you in this.

If it is just vet trials not trying to achieve anything beyond a clear, it is not important at all.

This is my objective.

This is why I have little to no interest in the "meta" sets that don't fit my playstyle or character theme.

You will be fine not running bis or having a perfect rotation. Imo, it is your team that matters the most.

That's always been my philosophy. Build intentionally and understand mechanics and that takes you further than any sets will.

But in various conversations in different platforms, it's being presented to me that I'm not a "real tank" because I'm running Leeching and Akaviri Dragonguard, and that I'm not viable for vet trials.

I'm just in a casual guild, we've been taking our shot at vet Craglorn trials for fun, and succeeding. Idk what vets beyond Craglorn will look like. We aren't pushing leaderboards, just enjoy playing the content and the additional challenge of vet.

But as a couple other comments hinted at, I'm starting to feel pressure that I have to change up my entire build and setup just to be able to participate, and that's honestly discouraging.

FrancisCrawford · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

If I can tank vet trials on a NB tank, anyone can.

Likewise DK healer is absolutely viable from a numbers perspective.

I nervously took an Imperial DK into Spindleclutch 1 to heal, because I wanted the skill point and figured I could do it. The group asked me to stay with them through the day's other two pledges, including the DLC one.

Karmanorway · July 2020

Twilanthe wrote: »

I hear a lot on both sides, if I go googling enough I get responses from it doesn't matter to it 100% does and everywhere in between.

But how is it really? If I want to make a Nord Dragonknight Healer, or a Bosmer Nightblade Tank, am I excluding myself from higher end game content? Will I get vote kicked out of vet dungeons the second I set foot in one? What would be my glass ceiling? Vet dungeons? Normal trials?

Do people have any luck theory-crafting their own builds, or does everyone at the higher end have cookie cutter builds?

Not sure about the Pve side of the things, but when it comes to PvP meta it doesnt matter.

For example i play 2H+SnB Dark Elf stamsorc. I have 33k resists and 3k hp recovery. Its a heavy armor bleed build and i often wreck meta players with it 🤷‍♂️

Play what u want and build how u want, it is infinitely more fun creating something of your own rather then copy paste others 😊

And when the nerfs are coming and u need to switch build, just put it on youtube so others can copy paste it, since u dont fear meeting that build in the battlefield anymore 🤣

xF1REFL1x · July 2020

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I once got kicked from a group right before the final boss when the tank realized I was a dragonknight and declared that anyone other than a templar couldn't be a healer and convinced the others to vote kick me.

And this was a group where we were steamrolling normal darkshade caverns 1 and nobody in the entire run had dropped below 90% health.

Afterward, the tank even sent me a hate message about how anyone healing with anything other than a templar was ruining the game for everyone else.

Aside from that kind of prejudice, you can definitely get through any (normal or vet) dungeon content healing on any class, although it certainly is easier with some builds than others.

I can't really comment on trials, but the same is probably true there, although you might need multiple roles running non-meta classes to make sure you have all of the necessary buffs/debuffs covered.

Lol... crazy. You don't even need a tank or healer (or 4 players) for Darkshade Caverns 1... unfortunately there will always be players like this.

Myyth · July 2020

I have had no problems with non meta tanks such as a light armor Argonian templar tank or a dragon knight healer, but dps is another matter.
You are pretty much forced to dual wield as a stam dps.
Do not try to use bow as your primary weapon. I tried three different bow builds, bow warden, bow sorcerer and bow templar. All failed. I could tell in groups that my lack of dps was slowing things down and causing dungeon runs to fail when dps was required to kill a boss. So I was forced to switch to dual wield with all of them. No more bow builds

WastedJoker · July 2020

My only issue is when you're running a vet dungeon and you're making sure to always have your pre-buffs active and sticking to your rotation yet some classes go drop aoe and kill everything super quick brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr which makes you feel like a 5th wheel.

newtinmpls · July 2020

daemonios wrote: »

You can't have a frost resto staff. Frost is one of three types of destro staves: inferno, lightning, and frost.

True, but you can throw a frost damage glyph onto a resto staff.

Not sure why you would want to, but technically it's possible.

newtinmpls · July 2020

Danikat wrote: »

Is it possible to make an ESO character who will struggle to complete even basic content because none of their skills or attributes mesh with each other? Probably yes. But that doesn't mean all non-meta builds are like that. Some are pefectly functional and just take slightly longer than the absolute minimum to complete content. People who like using them will say they work just as well, because they're still able to complete stuff without any significant problems. But meta players may say they're utterly useless, because it makes a dungeon take 20 minutes instead of 10 to complete. Neither is wrong exactly, they just have different priorities.

This is a lovely and insightful summary.

It can also serve as a challenge. I have a Stormfist/Storm Knight/Thunderbug tank build that originally came about when I was wanting to do overland content on my sorc, and put together a set that would proc damage so I didn't have to rearrange her build to get things done overland.

Used to be better before they nerfed the sorc passives, but it still works pretty well.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

Another thing that gets me:

As a tank, we are expected to wear Alkosh - a non tank set, because it applies resistance debuffs to the mobs.

But, we are looked down upon for wearing Dragon's Defilement - an actual tanking set, that gives the same debuffs........

Kadoin · July 2020

It depends on player skill at the end of the day and build choices. I've used a hybrid sorc, hybrid DK, hybrid templar and completed vMA (even when it was bugged). Also use them elsewhere in PvE and even completed vDLC dungeons no death with little issue.

I use the same chars in PvP and they are strong..takes a lot of adapting to, but when you do and do it right even a zerg will have trouble with you around on certain hybrid builds.

And not a single meta set is used in any of those builds...

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2020

Twilanthe wrote: »

I hear a lot on both sides, if I go googling enough I get responses from it doesn't matter to it 100% does and everywhere in between.

But how is it really? If I want to make a Nord Dragonknight Healer, or a Bosmer Nightblade Tank, am I excluding myself from higher end game content? Will I get vote kicked out of vet dungeons the second I set foot in one? What would be my glass ceiling? Vet dungeons? Normal trials?

Do people have any luck theory-crafting their own builds, or does everyone at the higher end have cookie cutter builds?

The races arent really the issue. It's the class/role combos you listed. I have seen very competent DK healers and NB tanks. That said, you are likely not going to see many on score runs. Most people in Groupfinder arent going to automatically boot you as a support role, assuming you demonstrate you can perform the role early in the dungeon. I recently did a VSSHM run with a NB tank that went just fine (or at least, the tank wasnt the issue). Admittely, I cant recall the last time I saw a DK healer in trial content, but doesnt mean it cant be done. They just dont bring as much to the table compared to say templar or warden.

Danikat · July 2020

Varana wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

In seriousness, though, the term "endgame" confuses the crap out of me. To me, those words mashed together imply the end of the game. You know, an actual end? Game complete? Time for new game plus, or play through number two? Or just playing a different game? What kids these days call "endgame" is really just repetitive, grindy content that exists for... honestly, I haven't quite figured that one out yet. Probably never will.

It is one of those things where you can see a fundamental difference between single-player (i.e. actual ) RPGs, and multi-player online RPGs.
In single-player, levelling a character is the game. When you reach level cap (if there even is one), it's a sure sign that you should wrap this character up, and start a new one.
In multi-player, levelling is a chore to get through until you reach level cap and start with the actual game. Yes, you can play ESO like a single-player game and happily quest away, you can do various dungeons and PvP below level cap as training, and ESO's battle-scaling tries to hide the issue a bit, but the advanced multiplayer part comes in only after you've hit the end.

It's not about "kids these days". They're completely alien approaches to a game, dictated by genre conventions.

I know this is a late reply but I've only just seen this now the topic has been bumped up.

For me it's more like in a single-player game levelling is largely irrelevant. It's something that happens as I'm playing but unless I'm trying to rush through or the game is poorly designed so I have to stop and grind levels to be allowed to progress it's never something I really need to think about. I certainly wouldn't ever stop playing a single-player RPG or start over just because I'd reached the level cap, I'll keep going until I reach the end of the main storyline and any secondary goals I want to complete. (Aka until I get to the end of the game.)

Whereas in a multiplayer game I'm more likely to feel under pressure to level up quickly because a lot of the game is locked off based on your level and a combination of more freedom of choice in which areas of the game you play (usually, some multiplayer games are still very linear) and talking to people who have access to those areas already makes those restrictions more obvious and frustrating. It feels more like an artificial barrier to get around than a natural part of the game.