Devs, can we talk about world events please? Harrowstorms, Geysers, Dragons etc?

CaffeinatedMayhem · July 2020

Look, I know people have complained that Dolmen and Geysers are too easy, but lets look at Dragons and Harrowstorms.

Dragons - only still killed regularly in S. Elsweyr. Not sure why, better rewards in N. Elsweyr imo. The main difference is easier access and better landing locations.
I'm still grinding the lead for the stained glass window, and at 40 of only the Star Haven wayshrine with 6 people, I'm giving up. There might be more players killing dragons during prime time, but I'm there during the day.

Harrowstorms - good luck having more than 6 people show up. Yes, I've taken down Harrowstorms with 4-5 people, it's about as much fun as killing a dragon with 4-5 people. Even less fun when you ride up to find someone off to the side light attacking a death hound and 2 bosses already up.

It's been known for a while that Dolmen adjust their difficulty - you can see more mobs spawn in later phases if more people show up. Geysers seem to have the same type of logic. Not really possible with dragons, but it would be nice to have fewer mobs during a fly over phase if there are less people present. 8 flame atronachs are easy to kill with 12-20 people; not so much with 4.

Why do Harrowstorms not have this type of adjustment? Maybe less souls to spawn bosses, or fewer adds, or something? Not everyone can adjust their playtime to match prime time, and even with the added wayshrines the northern Harrowstorms generally have fewer players present.

[snip] ESO is an MMO. The developers created these MASS events and tied rewards to them. If you do not get the RNG rewards during the initial drop week they are a pain, because people lose interest or give up.

Can we do something about this devs, please? "Convenience" isn't going to make people show up. Harrowstorms had a good idea: only one at a time and it must go down before the others spawn, forcing everyone who is interested to the same location. I'd argue that the main reason for continuing to grind Harrowstorms is for Vampire furnishing plans, which I get about once every 20-30 Harrowstorms. 40+ dragons for a lead drop? I'm giving up on that too, until some event where all 3 dragons die relatively quickly.

Yes, game population is down since it's more than 30 days past a major content drop. I wouldn't care if only 4 people showed up at a Harrowstorm if the storm wasn't still the same difficulty as if 20-40 people were present.

Devs please, fix mass events to adjust to numbers of players present. It's ridiculous that the NEWEST content in game is dead after 6 weeks.

[Minor Edit for Baiting]

BejaProphet · July 2020

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

CaffeinatedMayhem · July 2020

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

Yes, dragons should be hard, but saying "well too bad if no one is there because it's *old* content, you should FAIL because only 3 people showed up" is... the exact kind of attitude the devs seem to have.

And it will ultimately drive me away from ESO. I'm tried of only being able to get certain items during events and the first 2 weeks of a content drop, because no one is around afterwards.

VaranisArano · July 2020

I thought Geysers really hit the sweet spot of difficulty. You can do them by yourself and get a miniboss at the end who's not bad for an average player to fight all the way up to doing them in a daily group where a world boss is wrecking people left and right with their AOEs.

It means that I feel comfortable running up to a waiting geyser whether I'm alone or not.

In Northern Elsweyr, I would come across a waiting dragon and just wait for people to come...then it moves on to a different location, and I call it out in zone and wait again...rinse repeat until we maybe have enough people to fight it and not have the battle take forever.

CaffeinatedMayhem · July 2020

I agree about Geysers, they did hit a sweet spot. I haven't solo'd a geyser, but I've come up on people who are, and they're generally fine until the last boss. I'm sure there are people who can solo them completely.

VaranisArano wrote: »

In Northern Elsweyr, I would come across a waiting dragon and just wait for people to come...then it moves on to a different location, and I call it out in zone and wait again...rinse repeat until we maybe have enough people to fight it and not have the battle take forever.

Wait, people show up when you ask? Show me your mysterious ways sensei!

Aznarb · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

Yes, dragons should be hard, but saying "well too bad if no one is there because it's *old* content, you should FAIL because only 3 people showed up" is... the exact kind of attitude the devs seem to have.

And it will ultimately drive me away from ESO. I'm tried of only being able to get certain items during events and the first 2 weeks of a content drop, because no one is around afterwards.

Their is plenty of people who look for dragon, but ofc probaly not at the same time.
Dragon drop lot of good and expensive motif for housing.

So, since we can have 5 guild, why not make one (or just a discord) to regroupe people who wanna do it and farm them with 1 tank 1 heal and full DPS. So you do them very fast, with people motivated for and don't stop until people have to leave

It's a mmorpg, we've already way to much easy and boring content in overland.
Let dragon strong and find friend/people who need the same thing as you. You wont make me trust than you're alone in the game wanna doing them.

For some time I add a disc where people was chasing DG success, I did many with them. I add many for raid, and long time ago one for motif-gear farming.
I'm sur you can find/create one too.

BejaProphet · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

Yes, dragons should be hard, but saying "well too bad if no one is there because it's *old* content, you should FAIL because only 3 people showed up" is... the exact kind of attitude the devs seem to have.

And it will ultimately drive me away from ESO. I'm tried of only being able to get certain items during events and the first 2 weeks of a content drop, because no one is around afterwards.

I’ve tried soloing a dragon. I’ve succeeded in Duo’ing one With another random that showed up. I LOVE how hard they are. That’s why I go fight them. I love being the first one there and “holding” the dragon until reinforcements arrive. Are you seriously suggesting content for players like me should not be permitted in the game?

So to answer simply: yes I e tried it.

My favorite is to fight them in damage gear in first person without my ability OR health bars on the screen. It is SOOO epic! But I have to slip on Chudan set when doing that.

ArcVelarian · July 2020

The only thing about Harrowstorms that needs to be nerfed are those Crow Shrike thingies. Pretty much all of their abilities either one-shot people or damn well close to.

Raudgrani · July 2020

Horrowstorms needs some kind of way to be predicted. It's simple too inconvenient when you can't, and underground you'll either have to travel continuously - or hope someone calls them out, but they don't anymore.

As for the Harrowstorms themselves, they are fine - except that ******* Harrowstorm Shrieke. I mean? What's his problem? He jumps you from across the other side of the storm, oneshotting you every time. And there's little to no telegraph or any kind of warning when he attacks. I must have died like 30 times in Harrowstorms now, like ONCE or twice to anything but that nasty bird. It's even become an internal joke among friends "Oh-oh, the bird is looking for you now, you better run!". I don't mind his high damage or anything, except that you die like instantly, without any visible warning. Needs some way of realizing he's about to jump you.

BejaProphet · July 2020

+1 to Shriek comments.

CaffeinatedMayhem · July 2020

BejaProphet wrote: »

My favorite is to fight them in damage gear in first person without my ability OR health bars on the screen. It is SOOO epic! But I have to slip on Chudan set when doing that.

So... because you like super hard stuff I shouldn't be able to play at my level?

I hate to break this to you, but this is an MMO, not dark souls. In any game where multiple skill levels exist at the same time, there will be issues. You want a harder game? Make it harder on yourself, not others. Seems like you do that, great. You want it harder? Unallocate your CP. Take off your armor. No weapons or skills, only fists. Go fight a dragon like that. Have fun.
Go solo a trial. NO really, do!

But don't take overland content and make it YOUR PERSONAL thing. Most people do not want to take an hour to solo a dragon. And that's reasonable.

For everyone who complains that ESO (an MMO) is too easy... well, there are plenty of ways to up the difficulty without imposing on others. If that's not enough for you - there are plenty of very difficult single player games. If none of those suit your fancy - make your own games. Unity is easy to learn and free. In a multiplayer environment, expecting overworld content that *everyone* can access to cater to the elite is... selfish. If vMA isn't difficult enough for you, solo a trial. You can walk right into vCR+3 or vAS+2.

Danel_Vadan · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

My favorite is to fight them in damage gear in first person without my ability OR health bars on the screen. It is SOOO epic! But I have to slip on Chudan set when doing that.

So... because you like super hard stuff I shouldn't be able to play at my level?

I hate to break this to you, but this is an MMO, not dark souls. In any game where multiple skill levels exist at the same time, there will be issues. You want a harder game? Make it harder on yourself, not others. Seems like you do that, great. You want it harder? Unallocate your CP. Take off your armor. No weapons or skills, only fists. Go fight a dragon like that. Have fun.
Go solo a trial. NO really, do!

But don't take overland content and make it YOUR PERSONAL thing. Most people do not want to take an hour to solo a dragon. And that's reasonable.

For everyone who complains that ESO (an MMO) is too easy... well, there are plenty of ways to up the difficulty without imposing on others. If that's not enough for you - there are plenty of very difficult single player games. If none of those suit your fancy - make your own games. Unity is easy to learn and free. In a multiplayer environment, expecting overworld content that *everyone* can access to cater to the elite is... selfish. If vMA isn't difficult enough for you, solo a trial. You can walk right into vCR+3 or vAS+2.

15 zones with multiple soloable contents vs. 2 zones with 3 difficult dragons each. I think there are more of your content options than theirs. If this is still not to your liking, then git gud, scrub, and go make some friends.

BejaProphet · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

My favorite is to fight them in damage gear in first person without my ability OR health bars on the screen. It is SOOO epic! But I have to slip on Chudan set when doing that.

So... because you like super hard stuff I shouldn't be able to play at my level?

I hate to break this to you, but this is an MMO, not dark souls. In any game where multiple skill levels exist at the same time, there will be issues. You want a harder game? Make it harder on yourself, not others. Seems like you do that, great. You want it harder? Unallocate your CP. Take off your armor. No weapons or skills, only fists. Go fight a dragon like that. Have fun.
Go solo a trial. NO really, do!

But don't take overland content and make it YOUR PERSONAL thing. Most people do not want to take an hour to solo a dragon. And that's reasonable.

For everyone who complains that ESO (an MMO) is too easy... well, there are plenty of ways to up the difficulty without imposing on others. If that's not enough for you - there are plenty of very difficult single player games. If none of those suit your fancy - make your own games. Unity is easy to learn and free. In a multiplayer environment, expecting overworld content that *everyone* can access to cater to the elite is... selfish. If vMA isn't difficult enough for you, solo a trial. You can walk right into vCR+3 or vAS+2.

Are you actually suggesting there is a lack of easy content?

No, you aren’t because that is so demonstrably false it’s rediculous. 95% of the game is geared to what you want. (And I’m totally fine with that, I love the easy content too.). You are complaining that something difficult exists AT ALL.

The irony is that you are the one insisting that ALL content scale to you. Not vice versa. Play as if I’m asking the game to cater to me all you want. Anybody that can read this thread can see you are wearing that hat.

Hurbster · July 2020

Eh, half my characters are not going to get there in time anymore after the patch anyway.

Jaraal · July 2020

I logged in this morning to kill dragons, all three N Elsweyr dragons were idle. Ok, let’s port to S Elsweyr..... both dragons idle.

How about making dragons and harrowstorms scale to the number of players, like geysers do?

volkeswagon · July 2020

i mentioned this before. Dragons and Harrowstorms are obviously meant be a large group event but what happens when people stop farming them and you can't get a group. I can't take down a dragon with just me and 2 others. So either you scale the strength of the dragon/storms abilities to how many people are in the range or you increase the rewards so people will still farm them years later. Obviously the easiest thing is to increase awards. For example for dragons dropping a document pouch every time, 500g, more xp, paintings and other knick-knacks that are exclusive to these events, motifs, drop a random rarer style mat each time, etc.

CaffeinatedMayhem · July 2020

volkeswagon wrote: »

i mentioned this before. Dragons and Harrowstorms are obviously meant be a large group event but what happens when people stop farming them and you can't get a group. I can't take down a dragon with just me and 2 others. So either you scale the strength of the dragon/storms abilities to how many people are in the range or you increase the rewards so people will still farm them years later. Obviously the easiest thing is to increase awards. For example for dragons dropping a document pouch every time, 500g, more xp, paintings and other knick-knacks, motifs, drop a random rarer style mat each time, etc.

Eh, as my post stated, I don't tink better rewards will bring players to dragons. Document pouches already drop at a much higher rate on dragons than Harrowstorms, and the "trash" in dragon drops does sell for several hundred gold, plus dragon blood which goes into Bloody Mara's. There are LOTS of reasons to continue killing dragons, but no one does.

Maybe if Dragons and Harrowstorms gave as much XP and Fighters Guild as Dolmen, the grind groups would be there instead of base game.

MasterSpatula · July 2020

I've been doing three or more dragons a day for a year now, and there's a lot I'd change about them.

Lightning Dragons' breath attack, unless you're a tank and close enough to immediately flank it, is basically a one-shot. Lightning Dragons' breath attack when they're perched is a one-shot with no discernible telegraph that goes through walls, hillsides, and rocks. "Earth Spike" STILL explodes prematurely if the dragon dies during its timer, one-shotting players with no time to react. There are several one-shot abilities with preposterously short telegraphs/timers, and many of them will one-shot you when you're outside the red. The Bone Colossus adds are wildly overpowered, with abilities that have no telegraph that will definitely one-shot a DPS character. Blocking's effectiveness at preventing the knockback of "Wing Sweep" is inconsistent, which isn't that big a deal unless you get knocked into "Freezing Wind" or a ground AOE. "Bleeding" is an insanely overtuned DOT that cannot be purged, and while I'm fairly certain blocking Dragon bite and "Chomp" attacks is supposed to prevent the DOT, it doesn't always do so. None of this is okay.

If unpurged, "Soul Tear" can still kill you after the dragon is dead, which is very frustrating for some Sorcs and NBs who rely on doing damage for self-heals. Yes, you should slot Purge to do Dragons. But, if you forget, you can still heal through the DOT. I see no reason why the DOT should continue once the Dragon is dead.

Oddly, while I dislike Frost Dragons the most, I actually consider them the least unfair. Yes, they run abilities that punish you for being too far away at the same time they fill the entire area near them with high-damage AOE, but at least you can get better as a player at figuring out how to navigate that. It's a challenge, and while I might consider it a bit excessive, it's a hell of a lot better than the game just handing you an unavoidable death.

But I'll still choose Dragons, which retain the same challenge level no matter the size or competence of your group, over Harrowstorms, which see the challenge level increase the smaller and less competent the group who fights them are. This doesn't just hurt weak groups by giving them a nightmarish experience; it also hurts large and strong groups by giving them a quick and boring cakewalk. That's just bad, and I cannot wrap my brain around disagreeing with that assessment, especially if you're someone who enjoys highly challenging content.

If buggy one-shots with inadequate or non-existent telegraphs is what the players want, why is it hard to find anyone to help kill Dragons in Northern Elsweyr? Why is it, just weeks out, hard to get even six players to show up to Harrowstorms an hour after dailies reset just weeks after they were released?

volkeswagon · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

i mentioned this before. Dragons and Harrowstorms are obviously meant be a large group event but what happens when people stop farming them and you can't get a group. I can't take down a dragon with just me and 2 others. So either you scale the strength of the dragon/storms abilities to how many people are in the range or you increase the rewards so people will still farm them years later. Obviously the easiest thing is to increase awards. For example for dragons dropping a document pouch every time, 500g, more xp, paintings and other knick-knacks, motifs, drop a random rarer style mat each time, etc.

Eh, as my post stated, I don't tink better rewards will bring players to dragons. Document pouches already drop at a much higher rate on dragons than Harrowstorms, and the "trash" in dragon drops does sell for several hundred gold, plus dragon blood which goes into Bloody Mara's. There are LOTS of reasons to continue killing dragons, but no one does.

Maybe if Dragons and Harrowstorms gave as much XP and Fighters Guild as Dolmen, the grind groups would be there instead of base game.

Well the two reasons why I don't do storms or dragons are because the rewards aren't worth my time. The second is because noone else is doing them. Giving high XP so they become a grind option would help. And even if the rewards were better so I want to do them i still would need others to want to as well. There must be something that would draw people to these regularly. Maybe people will drop some good ideas here

Magdalina · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

Yes, dragons should be hard, but saying "well too bad if no one is there because it's *old* content, you should FAIL because only 3 people showed up" is... the exact kind of attitude the devs seem to have.

And it will ultimately drive me away from ESO. I'm tried of only being able to get certain items during events and the first 2 weeks of a content drop, because no one is around afterwards.

I've tried doing them with 2, and I can assue you it takes way faster than that, and also fairly easy if both of you are paying attention (easier yet if one of you is tanky). I've also never had issues killing ads with >1 people there. I don't want to scream l2p, but if it's an issue you're regularly having, perhaps you could look into some slight adjustments to your build and/or fight strategy to speed it up

Leave the dragons difficulty alone. This is literally the only open world encounter you cannot easily solo, this is a DRAGON and you're no Dragonborn, it SHOULD be hard. This is a gorgeous, epic fight, imo best thing they have ever done to open world, let's not screw it up by endless nerfs like other parts of the game. If anything, I wish the rewards could scale depending on number of people so with less people there you'd be getting bigger rewards, that'd be fair, but I don't think the dragons themselves should be easier. If nothing else, I'm sure you can find a group to do them, like 4 capable people would be more than enough for fast and easy experience (not 30 seconds, but not 20 minutes either).

Cireous · July 2020

Interesting. Five people at Dragons and Harrowstorms are when these events actually feel fun, challenging and most enjoyable for me. My healing matters more, survival matters more, adrenaline gets secreted. I've always enjoyed 4-6 as the ideal number of players for this content.

However, Harrowstorms need an adjustment in their loot to feel rewarding enough for the time they take. Fix the loot, and more people will show up, which could fix 'your' problem with numbers.

Magdalina · July 2020

MasterSpatula wrote: »

The Bone Colossus adds are wildly overpowered, with abilities that have no telegraph that will definitely one-shot a DPS character.

Bone Colossus are an interesting type of ad present in several dungeons and dragon fights, and they have insanely clear telegraph of the one shot attack. You see them charging up a heavy, but it's a very slow charge, you need to dodge when they raise their arms and then you will be fine. As a squishy squishy deeps with 12k armor, I've never died to them aside from when I was out of stamina. Admittedly I use Combat Alerts to tell me when to dodge as well, but their visual telegraph is pretty clear. I'm also pretty sure Bone Colossus only spawn when people die so there's a fairly easy way to avoid that if the dragon isn't getting zerged but it's just you and a few more capable people

Now when people die in troves and you get like 3 colossus on the loose, that can become an issue. I find it quite awesome that it punishes you for dying though, I wish more encounters did that.

Blocking's effectiveness at preventing the knockback of "Wing Sweep" is inconsistent, which isn't that big a deal unless you get knocked into "Freezing Wind" or a ground AOE. "Bleeding" is an insanely overtuned DOT that cannot be purged, and while I'm fairly certain blocking Dragon bite and "Chomp" attacks is supposed to prevent the DOT, it doesn't always do so. None of this is okay.

You're right about the block. It is in fact fairly consistent, but I feel the timer is slightlyh off - you have an insanely short window to block the wing sweep, you basically gotta block the moment the dragon looks in your direction before actually moving the wind, if you block once he starts moving the wind, it won't save you. Personally, I prefer being either in their face or in their back, the tail and head swing telegraph are much more clear.

I'm fairly sure bleeding at the very least used to be purgeable before Greymoor. I've been having some issues with it after it though, it's neither registering by my add-on debuff tracker nor consistently purging, I'm not entirely sure if it's a bug or intended. I do believe it should be purgeable, no reason not to. Bleed does get put on you through block, I feel like that's intended, shouldn't be an issue if you can just purge it.

If unpurged, "Soul Tear" can still kill you after the dragon is dead, which is very frustrating for some Sorcs and NBs who rely on doing damage for self-heals. Yes, you should slot Purge to do Dragons. But, if you forget, you can still heal through the DOT. I see no reason why the DOT should continue once the Dragon is dead.

Tbh, this might be a bug that no one ever bothered fixing but I actually like it because it sometimes lets me easily blood-port from there to wherever I need xD Most other times someone will accidentally heal me though.

Personally, I find fire dragon to be the easiest, his breath is easiest to survive as a squishy magicka dps and he's less into biting and more into flame spitting which is easier for me to mitigate. I thoroughly enjoy tanking that when I get agro, it's a great challenge of paying attention and managing resources since the first Chomp that I won't dodge one-shots me, and the first unpurged bleed+soul tear stack kills me within several ticks too. Overall though, these are open world encounters that strongly encourage you to get a tank (having a tank alone makes it about 900% easier) which I think is awesome.

Seri · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

For everyone who complains that ESO (an MMO) is too easy... well, there are plenty of ways to up the difficulty without imposing on others. If that's not enough for you - there are plenty of very difficult single player games. If none of those suit your fancy - make your own games. Unity is easy to learn and free. In a multiplayer environment, expecting overworld content that *everyone* can access to cater to the elite is... selfish.

For everyone who complains that ESO (an MMO) is too hard, well there are plenty of other ways to lower the difficulty without imposing it on others. Making some friends, finding a group, arranging to make it a 'regular' thing to do your kill dragon dailies every few days at the same time. If that's not enough equip some better gear - it's a dragon, and you're not dragonborn. Of course a dragon is going to laugh at a single person poking it with a bow.

If that's not enough for you, there are plenty of very easy single player games. If none of those suit your fancy, make your own. Unity is easy to learn and free. In a multiplayer experience, expecting specifically designated *group* events that *everyone* can complete solo is... selfish.

redlink1979 · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Dragons - only still killed regularly in S. Elsweyr. Not sure why, better rewards in N. Elsweyr imo. The main difference is easier access and better landing locations.

In Northern Elsweyr only one dragon hunting ground is close to a shrine, that's why we need 2 or 2 more shrines in there.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Harrowstorms - good luck having more than 6 people show up.

Depends on time of day n most of the ppl do the harrowstorms in Blackreach because they spawn faster there.

I disagree with you: harrowstorms aren't dead and besides that, dragons and harrowstorms are fine as they are. They should be difficult n challenging.

Magdalina · July 2020

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

I couldn't help but keep wondering about this part so I did a few dragons to try to do some calculations. I will try to do more later to get a bigger data sample, the numbers below may be a little bit off til then, but they should give you the idea.

According to my timer, dragons tend to sit on the ground for about 1 min (this number seem to vary a little bit, I think it's due to their mechanics having a cast time - having started a mechanic before the timer hits 1 minute, the dragon will first finish it and only then fly off), then fly up and either (this seems random, I wasn't able to determine any consistent sequence so far at least) fly around doing their dragon stuff or fly around and perch somewhere. The first tends to last about 25 seconds, the second about 40-50 seconds (counting from the moment of take off to the moment of landing). They're invulnerable while they're flying, they are vulnerable while they're perching but that's strictly range, lots of AoEs around and that's when ads spawn so let's discount this time as run around/kill ads time. Dragons will not fly away after they drop below 25% of health.
So let's assume you get totally unlucky and the dragon does the perch phase (as a longer one with ads) for you all the time. That means that for the first 75% of the health it would go like this:

1 minute dps dragon on the ground - 50 second can't dps dragon/gotta kill ads

Aw hell, let's be generous and simplify the calculation by assuming you needed even more time to kill ads and were unable to dps dragon during that time, making it even, something like 55 second dragon dps, 55 second ads dps.
For the last 25% of the dragon's health you'll be able to dps 100% of the time as it won't fly away nor spawn ads (unless someone dies).

Dragons generally have 14.7-16.something mil health. Let's again simply the calculation (and be generous) and take 16 mil, even though only one dragon type out of four has that much (the 'simple' brown dragon).

We know it took you 20 minutes, and we know the first 12 million health (16 mil*0.75) you did at half the speed due to 50% dragon unavailability, and the last 4 million you did at the normal speed. Some easy calculations show that in order to achieve such result you'd have to have about 1,400,000 group damage per minute. I'm too lazy to write it all here but you can check it easily enough:
1.4kk - group damage per minute during second phase (last 4 million health)
0.7kk - effective group damage per minute during first phase (first 12 million health)
12kk / 0.7kk + 4kk / 1.4kk = 17.14+2.86=20 minutes, all good here.

Now you were a group of 4 so that's 1,400,000/4=350,000 damage per minute per person, and 350,000/60=5,833.(3) damage per second per person.

Tl;dr - to take 20 minutes to kill a dragon, 4 CP 810 damage dealers would have to do a whopping 5.8k dps each (actually probably less than that since you'd most likely have a lot more 'dragon dps' time than in the 'worst case' calculation above). Are you sure it's the dragon that's the problem here?

EDIT: my maths was a little wrong. Fixed it now. Final result grew by about 500.

BejaProphet · July 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

I couldn't help but keep wondering about this part so I did a few dragons to try to do some calculations. I will try to do more later to get a bigger data sample, the numbers below may be a little bit off til then, but they should give you the idea.

According to my timer, dragons tend to sit on the ground for about 1 min (this number seem to vary a little bit, I think it's due to their mechanics having a cast time - having started a mechanic before the timer hits 1 minute, the dragon will first finish it and only then fly off), then fly up and either (this seems random, I wasn't able to determine any consistent sequence so far at least) fly around doing their dragon stuff or fly around and perch somewhere. The first tends to last about 25 seconds, the second about 40-50 seconds (counting from the moment of take off to the moment of landing). They're invulnerable while they're flying, they are vulnerable while they're perching but that's strictly range, lots of AoEs around and that's when ads spawn so let's discount this time as run around/kill ads time. Dragons will not fly away after they drop below 25% of health.
So let's assume you get totally unlucky and the dragon does the perch phase (as a longer one with ads) for you all the time. That means that for the first 75% of the health it would go like this:

1 minute dps dragon on the ground - 50 second can't dps dragon/gotta kill ads

Aw hell, let's be generous and simplify the calculation by assuming you needed even more time to kill ads and were unable to dps dragon during that time, making it even, something like 55 second dragon dps, 55 second ads dps.
For the last 25% of the dragon's health you'll be able to dps 100% of the time as it won't fly away nor spawn ads (unless someone dies).

Dragons generally have 14.7-16.something mil health. Let's again simply the calculation (and be generous) and take 16 mil, even though only one dragon type out of four has that much (the 'simple' brown dragon).

We know it took you 20 minutes, and we know the first 12 million health (16 mil*0.75) you did at half the speed due to 50% dragon unavailability, and the last 4 million you did at the normal speed. Some easy calculations show that in order to achieve such result you'd have to have about 1,400,000 group damage per minute. I'm too lazy to write it all here but you can check it easily enough:
1.4kk - group damage per minute during second phase (last 4 million health)
0.7kk - effective group damage per minute during first phase (first 12 million health)
12kk / 0.7kk + 4kk / 1.4kk = 17.4+2.86=20 minutes, all good here.

Now you were a group of 4 so that's 1,400,000/4=350,000 damage per minute per person, and 350,000/60=5,833.(3) damage per second per person.

Tl;dr - to take 20 minutes to kill a dragon, 4 CP 810 damage dealers would have to do a whopping 5.8k dps each (actually probably less than that since you'd most likely have a lot more 'dragon dps' time than in the 'worst case' calculation above). Are you sure it's the dragon that's the problem here?

EDIT: my maths was a little wrong. Fixed it now. Final result grew by about 500.

This is the largest most involved “L2P” post I’ve ever seen. 😱

YstradClud · July 2020

Cireous wrote: »

However, Harrowstorms need an adjustment in their loot to feel rewarding enough for the time they take. Fix the loot, and more people will show up, which could fix 'your' problem with numbers.

That's all I think they need to do to them. They said they are doing something to them but haven't heard what it is?

xaraan · July 2020

You'll have a bunch of players pipe in to tell you that HS's, Dragons, etc. are supposed to be hard, etc, they are world events for groups etc. And though that is correct, you are not wrong. They are not well designed.

No matter what zos has tried in every one of these 'world events' they are all a cake walk when the zone is new or crowded or some event is pushing them. And then when the pop dies down, they are almost impossible solo or with a few people and definitely not worth the effort for whatever rewards they give. (On top of this is the fact that they are so easy when things are crowded, 90% of the player population doesn't learn any of the mechanics and are worthless if they show up to fight one with you later in a smaller group).

In the end, whether this is a 'multiplayer' experience or not, it's not my fault that their game doesn't have the pop to support these events. If I show up at the weirdest hour possible to do one and no one is there, sure, but it's been pretty dead at even the new HS events at some pretty normal hours. You design the game based on what you have to work with and if they cannot support doing these events population wise in every zone they exist in 1/2 the time each day, then something is wrong.

The other half of the coin is that sure, anything that is super challenging can be fun to do a couple times, even trying to solo or do a HS/Dragon event with just a few people. The problem is, none of these things are meant just for basic completions, they are all meant to be farms. For something to be worth farming, the reward has to equal the effort and they don't. Dragons do 'seem' to give better drops, but only slightly vs. HSs (b/c half the time the adv. pack is worthless crap that adds up to just a coupe hundred gold). HS's should be dropping the vamp crafting mat every time - not as RNG, they should be dropping more recipes and furniture plans and better gear drops at the very least. Even then it would be arguable reward wise.

LadyLethalla · July 2020

For me the issue with the Harrowstorms is how DAMN long they take to spawn. Waiting around or riding btw them for 20-30 minutes just to get the daily done is NOT fun. Which was why I breathed a huge sigh of relief that they at least changed the requirement for the daily from 3 to 1.

SickleCider · July 2020

Magdalina wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

Yes, dragons should be hard, but saying "well too bad if no one is there because it's *old* content, you should FAIL because only 3 people showed up" is... the exact kind of attitude the devs seem to have.

And it will ultimately drive me away from ESO. I'm tried of only being able to get certain items during events and the first 2 weeks of a content drop, because no one is around afterwards.

I've tried doing them with 2, and I can assue you it takes way faster than that, and also fairly easy if both of you are paying attention (easier yet if one of you is tanky). I've also never had issues killing ads with >1 people there. I don't want to scream l2p, but if it's an issue you're regularly having, perhaps you could look into some slight adjustments to your build and/or fight strategy to speed it up

Leave the dragons difficulty alone. This is literally the only open world encounter you cannot easily solo, this is a DRAGON and you're no Dragonborn, it SHOULD be hard. This is a gorgeous, epic fight, imo best thing they have ever done to open world, let's not screw it up by endless nerfs like other parts of the game. If anything, I wish the rewards could scale depending on number of people so with less people there you'd be getting bigger rewards, that'd be fair, but I don't think the dragons themselves should be easier. If nothing else, I'm sure you can find a group to do them, like 4 capable people would be more than enough for fast and easy experience (not 30 seconds, but not 20 minutes either).

Yeah, I was coming here to say. . . the other day I did a dragon with one other random person, who was a healer, and I'm a DD. It took us about 10 minutes. It was really challenging, yes, but it can be done. I know that's not exactly normal, of course.

I'm confused when people say there's no one running these things, too. Maybe that's a PC thing. On PS4 NA, there's always a train running back and forth between the two dragons in S. Elsweyr. In N. Elsweyr, they're a little more cautious, but I've had a lot of luck encouraging people by engaging the dragons first--yes, even the ones in the south. It's not rare for me to hold my own and keep from dying until someone shows up, it happens that quickly. It seems like there's always people waiting for someone to be brave.

BejaProphet · July 2020

Versispellis wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

I could support this on Harrow storms. But leave the dragons as pass/fail. If anything should be hard whether you are ready for it or not, it’s dragons.

Have you tried killing a dragon with 4 CP 810's in damage gear? I have, many times. It takes about 20 minutes.

Yes, dragons should be hard, but saying "well too bad if no one is there because it's *old* content, you should FAIL because only 3 people showed up" is... the exact kind of attitude the devs seem to have.

And it will ultimately drive me away from ESO. I'm tried of only being able to get certain items during events and the first 2 weeks of a content drop, because no one is around afterwards.

I've tried doing them with 2, and I can assue you it takes way faster than that, and also fairly easy if both of you are paying attention (easier yet if one of you is tanky). I've also never had issues killing ads with >1 people there. I don't want to scream l2p, but if it's an issue you're regularly having, perhaps you could look into some slight adjustments to your build and/or fight strategy to speed it up

Leave the dragons difficulty alone. This is literally the only open world encounter you cannot easily solo, this is a DRAGON and you're no Dragonborn, it SHOULD be hard. This is a gorgeous, epic fight, imo best thing they have ever done to open world, let's not screw it up by endless nerfs like other parts of the game. If anything, I wish the rewards could scale depending on number of people so with less people there you'd be getting bigger rewards, that'd be fair, but I don't think the dragons themselves should be easier. If nothing else, I'm sure you can find a group to do them, like 4 capable people would be more than enough for fast and easy experience (not 30 seconds, but not 20 minutes either).

Yeah, I was coming here to say. . . the other day I did a dragon with one other random person, who was a healer, and I'm a DD. It took us about 10 minutes. It was really challenging, yes, but it can be done. I know that's not exactly normal, of course.

I'm confused when people say there's no one running these things, too. Maybe that's a PC thing. On PS4 NA, there's always a train running back and forth between the two dragons in S. Elsweyr. In N. Elsweyr, they're a little more cautious, but I've had a lot of luck encouraging people by engaging the dragons first--yes, even the ones in the south. It's not rare for me to hold my own and keep from dying until someone shows up, it happens that quickly. It seems like there's always people waiting for someone to be brave.

I have the same experience in Xbox. If you show them somebody is surviving against it, they join in.