More stealth and invisibility nerfs

Ectheliontnacil · July 2020

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continuos nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

BlueRaven · July 2020

They made stealth so much fun in Skyrim, and then they dropped the ball on stealth so hard in ESO.

I don't get it. Plenty of MMO's do stealth well, why not here in ESO? Why is it such a problem for them?

West93 · July 2020

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continous nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

Not everyone plays only a nightblade, camouflaged hunter is universal fighters guild skill (not nightblade) and now it can effectively be used by everyone, it was a good change.

Infectious1X · July 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

They made stealth so much fun in Skyrim, and then they dropped the ball on stealth so hard in ESO.

I don't get it. Plenty of MMO's do stealth well, why not here in ESO? Why is it such a problem for them?

Perhaps because most other games don’t let you have on demand stealth whenever you need it, including in the middle of combat (at least for the MMOs I’ve played). Most others have some sort of CD system to prevent what happens in ESO. Sure, there are counters to stealth, but these counters also happen to be what most NBs complain about.

This game is also completely unrelated to Skyrim as both games don’t play even remotely the same and are in completely different genres. The only similarities is the universe and lore they share.

Ryuvain · July 2020

Isn't this a buff? You can just attack their sides now, what's the problem?

Ectheliontnacil · July 2020

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continous nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

Not everyone plays only a nightblade, camouflaged hunter is universal fighters guild skill (not nightblade) and now it can effectively be used by everyone, it was a good change.

Well it was a skill that buffed the dmg of stealth attacks. And nightblades aren't the only class that can play stealth builds (even though it's more challenging on other classes). I've seen quite a few magicka sorc, magicka templar and dk gankers in pvp over the years.
Also dark brotherhood, thieves guild content and the justice system in general require you to play stealth builds. So again, it's not just nightblades that are affected.

Also there is no reason that the camo hunter morph must be of use to nearly every (stam) playstyle.
Point is it was a stealth buffing skill (as the name suggests) and now it's just this generic dmg buff.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Isn't this a buff? You can just attack their sides now, what's the problem?

Yeah I said it was a buff. Just pointing out how they're stripping nb of their class identity and have been hollowing out stealth gameplay for a while now.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · July 2020

first iam not a fan of ganking, i never do it, but Zos again has missed the point, the probs will the skills was not the damage output but mag light not working correctly, nb able to recloak in less than a second with it active

Ryuvain · July 2020

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continous nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

Not everyone plays only a nightblade, camouflaged hunter is universal fighters guild skill (not nightblade) and now it can effectively be used by everyone, it was a good change.

Well it was a skill that buffed the dmg of stealth attacks. And nightblades aren't the only class that can play stealth builds (even though it's more challenging on other classes). I've seen quite a few magicka sorc, magicka templar and dk gankers in pvp over the years.
Also dark brotherhood, thieves guild content and the justice system in general require you to play stealth builds. So again, it's not just nightblades that are affected.

Also there is no reason that the camo hunter morph must be of use to nearly every (stam) playstyle.
Point is it was a stealth buffing skill (as the name suggests) and now it's just this generic dmg buff.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Isn't this a buff? You can just attack their sides now, what's the problem?

Yeah I said it was a buff. Just pointing out how they're stripping nb of their class identity and have been hollowing out stealth gameplay for a while now.

As a magblade I do admit stealth is annoying. The main counterplay to it forces most enemies to lose a slot in their skill bars.

Having blades be less dependent on cloak will help a little. (Doesn't really fix the problem though)

BlueRaven · July 2020

Infectious1X wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

They made stealth so much fun in Skyrim, and then they dropped the ball on stealth so hard in ESO.

I don't get it. Plenty of MMO's do stealth well, why not here in ESO? Why is it such a problem for them?

Perhaps because most other games don’t let you have on demand stealth whenever you need it, including in the middle of combat (at least for the MMOs I’ve played). Most others have some sort of CD system to prevent what happens in ESO. Sure, there are counters to stealth, but these counters also happen to be what most NBs complain about.

This game is also completely unrelated to Skyrim as both games don’t play even remotely the same and are in completely different genres. The only similarities is the universe and lore they share.

It’s been a few years but I remember vanish in WoW. In combat then boom, stealth, and if I remember right, you did not reappear again in 2-3 seconds. Also stealth had (has?) utility in WoW with “sap”.

They had this BEFORE ESO was released, so what is the problem? Want me to design a whole ESO style stealth skill tree? I will, and it’s not that hard.

West93 · July 2020

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continous nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

Not everyone plays only a nightblade, camouflaged hunter is universal fighters guild skill (not nightblade) and now it can effectively be used by everyone, it was a good change.

Well it was a skill that buffed the dmg of stealth attacks. And nightblades aren't the only class that can play stealth builds (even though it's more challenging on other classes). I've seen quite a few magicka sorc, magicka templar and dk gankers in pvp over the years.
Also dark brotherhood, thieves guild content and the justice system in general require you to play stealth builds. So again, it's not just nightblades that are affected.

Also there is no reason that the camo hunter morph must be of use to nearly every (stam) playstyle.
Point is it was a stealth buffing skill (as the name suggests) and now it's just this generic dmg buff.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Isn't this a buff? You can just attack their sides now, what's the problem?

Yeah I said it was a buff. Just pointing out how they're stripping nb of their class identity and have been hollowing out stealth gameplay for a while now.

Camo hunter is a fighters guild ability, fighters guild is in base game, which means fighters guild skills should be as universal as possible and accessible for everyone.

Stealth playstyle for other classes in pvp is not that viable, few niche one trick pony builds which does it doesn't count.

xXMeowMeowXx · July 2020

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continous nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

Not everyone plays only a nightblade, camouflaged hunter is universal fighters guild skill (not nightblade) and now it can effectively be used by everyone, it was a good change.

Well it was a skill that buffed the dmg of stealth attacks. And nightblades aren't the only class that can play stealth builds (even though it's more challenging on other classes). I've seen quite a few magicka sorc, magicka templar and dk gankers in pvp over the years.
Also dark brotherhood, thieves guild content and the justice system in general require you to play stealth builds. So again, it's not just nightblades that are affected.

Also there is no reason that the camo hunter morph must be of use to nearly every (stam) playstyle.
Point is it was a stealth buffing skill (as the name suggests) and now it's just this generic dmg buff.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Isn't this a buff? You can just attack their sides now, what's the problem?

Yeah I said it was a buff. Just pointing out how they're stripping nb of their class identity and have been hollowing out stealth gameplay for a while now.

Camo hunter is a fighters guild ability, fighters guild is in base game, which means fighters guild skills should be as universal as possible and accessible for everyone.

Stealth playstyle for other classes in pvp is not that viable, few niche one trick pony builds which does it doesn't count.

Lol, bombing is very viable in PvP and can turn the tides....Not to mention being fun. You don’t really seem to understand stealth in the limited way you described it.

I understand the OP’ concern and yes FG should be universal.

To the OP please test it

Stealth is far more then ganking and much more of an intelligent play style then spamming dizzy.

Ectheliontnacil · July 2020

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continuous nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

Not everyone plays only a nightblade, camouflaged hunter is universal fighters guild skill (not nightblade) and now it can effectively be used by everyone, it was a good change.

Well it was a skill that buffed the dmg of stealth attacks. And nightblades aren't the only class that can play stealth builds (even though it's more challenging on other classes). I've seen quite a few magicka sorc, magicka templar and dk gankers in pvp over the years.
Also dark brotherhood, thieves guild content and the justice system in general require you to play stealth builds. So again, it's not just nightblades that are affected.

Also there is no reason that the camo hunter morph must be of use to nearly every (stam) playstyle.
Point is it was a stealth buffing skill (as the name suggests) and now it's just this generic dmg buff.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Isn't this a buff? You can just attack their sides now, what's the problem?

Yeah I said it was a buff. Just pointing out how they're stripping nb of their class identity and have been hollowing out stealth gameplay for a while now.

Camo hunter is a fighters guild ability, fighters guild is in base game, which means fighters guild skills should be as universal as possible and accessible for everyone.

Stealth playstyle for other classes in pvp is not that viable, few niche one trick pony builds which does it doesn't count.

Well radiating magelight is just as niche as camo hunter was and inner light is of useful for any playstyle. Why take the same approach to evil hunter and morphs? Change expert hunter to camo hunter and give camo hunter the stealth dmg buff back?
Also there's plenty of "universal" skills already while ZOS is seemingly obsessed with eradicating any skill/playstyle that's somewhat unique or that deviates even slightly from the norm.

West93 · July 2020

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Just to get this out of the way: Ganking for both magicka and stamina is an extremely good place at the moment (due to vampirism and sets like nma and titanborn) and I am by no means asking for a buff to that playstyle.

But I don't agree with the continous nerfs to stealth/invisibility attacks.
- The damage bonus from stealth was removed.
- Camouflaged hunter no longer provides a bonus when using stealth attacks (now gives a bonus when flanking).
- Surprise attack/concealed weapons no longer stuns when attacking from invis (now stuns when flanking).
- And with this patch we no longer get the spell/wep dmg bonus while invisible (now gives a bonus when flanking).

Point is attacking from stealth is more about attacking from behind (I know how it sounds...) and there is no reason to use shadowy disguise offensively aside from the crit chance.
All these changes arguably were buffs since flanking is more effortless than entering invis/stealth BUT just feels like more uniqueness is being removed from the game.
Also stunning by attacking an enemy's flank is annoying as hell.

Not everyone plays only a nightblade, camouflaged hunter is universal fighters guild skill (not nightblade) and now it can effectively be used by everyone, it was a good change.

Well it was a skill that buffed the dmg of stealth attacks. And nightblades aren't the only class that can play stealth builds (even though it's more challenging on other classes). I've seen quite a few magicka sorc, magicka templar and dk gankers in pvp over the years.
Also dark brotherhood, thieves guild content and the justice system in general require you to play stealth builds. So again, it's not just nightblades that are affected.

Also there is no reason that the camo hunter morph must be of use to nearly every (stam) playstyle.
Point is it was a stealth buffing skill (as the name suggests) and now it's just this generic dmg buff.

Ryuvain wrote: »

Isn't this a buff? You can just attack their sides now, what's the problem?

Yeah I said it was a buff. Just pointing out how they're stripping nb of their class identity and have been hollowing out stealth gameplay for a while now.

Camo hunter is a fighters guild ability, fighters guild is in base game, which means fighters guild skills should be as universal as possible and accessible for everyone.

Stealth playstyle for other classes in pvp is not that viable, few niche one trick pony builds which does it doesn't count.

Lol, bombing is very viable in PvP and can turn the tides....Not to mention being fun. You don’t really seem to understand stealth in the limited way you described it.

I understand the OP’ concern and yes FG should be universal.

To the OP please test it

Stealth is far more then ganking and much more of an intelligent play style then spamming dizzy.

What do you mean I don't understand stealth? Tell me how my stamplar can be a viable stealth class that could duel and hold on 1v1, 1vx etc? Stamplar bobming? Stealth magdk whip? No thanks. I was talking about using stealth as a primary way to pvp for other classes than a nightblade.

Stealth is mostly a nightblade gameplay, other classes could do a niche stealth builds like ganking magplar with dark flare -> javelin, using new vampire ability to stealth etc, but its a niche only build for other classes.

This is a good change for camo hunter for not having to slot a slimecraw to get minor berserk for those who doesn't have access to it by other means, nightblades can use camo hunter as well, attacking from flank is not difficult to achieve.