Non-healers queuing up in healer slot?

Stx · July 2020

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? .

Yes.

If you're a DPS, queue as DPS. If you want to queue as a healer, be a healer.

DPS queues aren't long because of some weird ESO mechanic or because ZOS want to spite you. They're long because everyone and their brother wants to be a DPS in every game ever made. They're all long. The solution is to make a new character with a different role, not to get one over on the system. People who get around the rules to the detriment of others aren't clever; they're selfish jerks.

And ultimately, they're hurting themselves, because tanks won't bother using the GF if they know they have better than a 50/50 chance to end up without a healer, and healers won't use the GF if they know there's better than a 50/50 chance they'll end up without a tank. Which makes the DPS queues even longer.

You want to 4-man DPS a vet dlc dungeon? Get friends.

This is all your opinion.

Players dont have to play how YOU want them to. I queue for healer on my MagDK all the time and slot two heal spells, and most of the time, I dont even need to heal because base game dungeons and normal mode dungeons are so easy.

If you really want to uphold your own self justice rules, then kick him at the beginning of the dungeon. Doing it before the last boss is just sad and really unfair to those players.

[Edit to remove bait]

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

This thread is about dungeon finder fake roles.

You responded
"If its non dlc non vet dungeons, you positively do not need a healer, if its dlc vet dungeons you also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

If that is not in responds to the dungeon finder and PUGs then you are off topic, because this thread is about fake role dungeon finder.

If you're just saying that some people go 3dd and clear vet DLC then it's not relevant how a group of RANDOM people being shoved in a dungeon puzzle they has to solve using mechs in vet DLC.

"The majority of 4 man group finder content does not require a healer."

No but Vet DLC PUG absolutely need a healer.

I Think I have made my point and that is Vet DLC PUG needs a healer.

Have a great night.

Llidoryc · July 2020

Wow. This escalated quickly.

gatekeeper13 · July 2020

This is a big issue and unfortunately ZOS aint doing a thing about it. 100% of those who queue as fake healers or fake tanks do it to skip queue time. Everything else is childish excuses.

And it's so funny to see some people trying to defend this objectively WRONG practice, probably because they are doing it themselves. Lol.

Fake healer = instant kick

Fake tank = instant kick

If you want to play in 3DD 1T groups or 3DD 1H groups, stay away from dungeon finder and form your own group to even play as 4DD, no one cares. Dungeon finder is for people looking for the standard group setup 2DD 1T 1H.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Llidoryc wrote: »

Wow. This escalated quickly.

Just for clarity to maybe bring this into focus, were you referring to normal dungeons, or veteran dungeons.

This is a contentious topic because there are those that prefer to hold others to certian standards in game once a certian threshold is passed in a players time playing and those that value the accessibility of an all inclusive group finding solution and to meet players in the middle when in a pug.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

This thread is about dungeon finder fake roles.

The thread was about one person's question as to why people queue as fake healers. I gave an answer that, at this point, clearly has struck a nerve. Whether or not people SHOULD queue as a fake healer was not the discussion. You only entered the discussion once you read that dlc vet dungeons do not require a healer since you clearly took umbrage with that statement. You then went on to make hyperbolic examples like needing 40k plus dps and whatnot as an example of what an elitist mindset might require or expect of a random in a pug.

pod88kk · July 2020

I only do it for normal non DLC dungeons, if a dlc one comes up I leave

CassandraGemini · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? .

Yes.

If you're a DPS, queue as DPS. If you want to queue as a healer, be a healer.

DPS queues aren't long because of some weird ESO mechanic or because ZOS want to spite you. They're long because everyone and their brother wants to be a DPS in every game ever made. They're all long. The solution is to make a new character with a different role, not to get one over on the system. People who get around the rules to the detriment of others aren't clever; they're selfish jerks.

And ultimately, they're hurting themselves, because tanks won't bother using the GF if they know they have better than a 50/50 chance to end up without a healer, and healers won't use the GF if they know there's better than a 50/50 chance they'll end up without a tank. Which makes the DPS queues even longer.

You want to 4-man DPS a vet dlc dungeon? Get friends.

This is all your opinion.

Players dont have to play how YOU want them to. I queue for healer on my MagDK all the time and slot two heal spells, and most of the time, I dont even need to heal because base game dungeons and normal mode dungeons are so easy.

If you really want to uphold your own self justice rules, then kick him at the beginning of the dungeon. Doing it before the last boss is just sad and really unfair to those players.

I have a feeling you're confusing the person you replied to here with me. I was the one who said I kick fake tanks before the last boss and I did reply to you on the previous page. But you obviously didn't see that, so I'll restate what I said briefly (and yes, I have to admit I should have been a bit more precise about the situation I had in mind when writing this, but I was kinda talking myself into a rage there).

Okay, so here goes: I won't kick fake tanks period, it depends on the person. I once had a fake tank in a PUG that said right away that they queued as a fake tank for a random normal to be done with it quickly, but we got a DLC dungeon and none of us were too familiar with it, so they were all like: "Well, if we can't do it, just kick me, it's ok." Needless to say it was a bit harder, but we managed and I never once thought of kicking them since they were so nice about it.
What I actually meant were the kinds of fake tanks that just race ahead of the group, not caring one bit if someone needs a quest, or knows a dungeon or if there are noobs in the group. They just run ahead like crazy with no communication whatsoever, leaving the rest of the group to fend for themselves. I don't know how you feel about this, but to me this is just not right. And so, while yes, technically everyone made it to the final boss, it was no thanks to the fake tank in these cases. So yes, I will absolutely initiate a vote to kick when I see that this person has reached the final boss, and usually it will go through. Which must mean that other people than just me are of the same opinion, otherwise it wouldn't.

Well, I hope that cleared some of the confusion up. If you still think what I do is wrong, then you'll just have to accept that we have different opinions about this, because I stand by doing this and will continue doing it.

idk · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? .

Yes.

If you're a DPS, queue as DPS. If you want to queue as a healer, be a healer.

DPS queues aren't long because of some weird ESO mechanic or because ZOS want to spite you. They're long because everyone and their brother wants to be a DPS in every game ever made. They're all long. The solution is to make a new character with a different role, not to get one over on the system. People who get around the rules to the detriment of others aren't clever; they're selfish jerks.

And ultimately, they're hurting themselves, because tanks won't bother using the GF if they know they have better than a 50/50 chance to end up without a healer, and healers won't use the GF if they know there's better than a 50/50 chance they'll end up without a tank. Which makes the DPS queues even longer.

You want to 4-man DPS a vet dlc dungeon? Get friends.

This is all your opinion.

Players dont have to play how YOU want them to. I queue for healer on my MagDK all the time and slot two heal spells, and most of the time, I dont even need to heal because base game dungeons and normal mode dungeons are so easy.

Vote kicking someone for not being a tank, even though they ultimately did tank the dungeon, as you said you made it to the final boss, makes you a jerk. Sorry but that's the truth.

If you really want to uphold your own self justice rules, then kick him at the beginning of the dungeon. Doing it before the last boss is just sad and really unfair to those players.

You honestly just sound like a bitter dps player.

@Stx Yes, that is their opinion but it is also based on actual fact of what is happening in the game. Queueing as a healer on a DPS that slots a couple heals and heals the group as needed is actually queueing as a healer. There is nothing that suggests a healer cannot do some DPS. Any good or even decent healer will do some damage in 4 man dungeons.

The reality is, the high odds of getting a bad group via GF is a big reason decent tanks (and healers) tend to avoid the GF. I used to queue solo as a tank to help the GF then changed to healing since I could add DPS easier but stopped because of how often I got abysmal groups. It is not worth my time when I can easily get into very good groups via my raiding guilds.

Linaleah · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

every time someone says that "healers are not needed in dungeons!!!!" I think back to countless pugs where I couldn't dps even when i wanted to because those pugs most definitely CERTAINLY required healing if I wanted to be done at all

your organized group of people you know that are working as a team =/= your average pug.

No actually, that is the entire point. If you have a very poor dps who is standing in red or simply does not understand what a rotation is, you as a healer could simply slot one heal, then proceed to dps and 9 time out of 10, there will be more group wide damage going out then if you constantly wasted time keeping a bad dps alive.

If your dice roll is so unfortunate that your entire group is very subpar, you have to bite the bullet and endure a greatly elongated dungeon run, but that is another discussion entirely.

its not always low dps. for every pug where I would be doing half of the group's damage AS a healer (and part of the reason I play a healer, because I cannot dps my way out of a paperbag in this game with its twitchy weaving nonsense so you can now imagine just how low group damage is in those runs, but I digress) - I get a pug where dps numbers are pretty decent, but those dps treat the dungeon like their personal parse dummy and DO. NOT. MOVE. they expect ME to keep them alive. and then... there are fake tanks, you know... the ones with 15k health, if I'm lucky, that constantly sprint away to the new pull, who - again if i'm lucky, may taunt a mob or two, maybe a boss most of the time, and the rest of those gigantic pulls they insist on making - are chewing everyone else's face, THEIR face while they maybe remember to use a defensive cooldown once in a blue moon, if at all, MY face and I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME TO EVEN SAY ANYTHING IN CHAT, because i'm too busy frantically trying to keep us alive. sometimes I think to myself - I'm making it worse by encouraging them to think that its ok. that this is normal that this is what they should expect. maybe i should just let us all die a few times to teach them to slow down. and then i remember that 1. that doesn't work because i'll just get blamed for being "fake healer" and kicked. and 2. I'm not the first or last person who made them believe its ok and I just want to finish the dungeon already.

IF I COULD CARRY THE GROUP WITH MY DPS? I wouldn't be pugging, I would just manually go into the dungeon and SOLO it.

Fur_like_snow · July 2020

For the near instant queue. I have a second account and I’ll queue for the daily normal in PvP gear on a mDK as a tank and have zero issues clearing. Groups sometimes tell me they had been waiting for 10 min to get a dungeon queue till I came along.

Kittytravel · July 2020

I can throw on Hiti's Hearth and Winter's Respite on my healer and focus solely on being a DD and still heal most vet DLCs. I don't even need WInters Respite in non-vets because the thousand healing on Hiti's is enough to circumvent anything but auto kill mechanics.

Healers in ESO are a role that IMO should be renamed to "Support" because it's a far more apt title. They are the groups "flex" role that should be able to achieve two of the following three; Extra DPS, DPS Buffing, Resource Sustain.

Calling them "Healers" hasn't been accurate since about Summerset and it's become much more lucrative to have a player in your group who can aid in the groups sustain and buff their damage or just come in on their own and do their full DPS without worrying about other people in the groups health bars.

Kurat · July 2020

You have to have specific setup for pug dungeons. You cant copy Alcast build and jump into vet dlc dungeon. You have to be prepared to have no real healer or a bad one and/or bad tank. Some of the builds you find online don't even have self heals slotted and are built on assumption that you have real tank and real healer and everyone knows what they are doing. Same goes for tank and healer builds.
I pug vet dlc dungeons every day, mostly with my tank coz I dont like to wait in queue. And it doesn't make any difference to me if there's no healer. Same if I'm dps. Even if tank is bad I can still complete the dungeon with my dps. You shouldn't bring your trial build into pug dungeon. But people rather blame others and fakers than get better or adjust their build.
You complain about long queues and fake roles but think a sec before you hit that kick button. If people didn't queue as fake tanks/healers you would be still sitting in queue.

Raudgrani · July 2020

In most cases, you are likely the "outsider" among 3 guys who queue together, and who thinks they don't really need a healer. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong.

Me and two friends usually run like this in the morning, if we are lacking any of our 2 friends who work mornings some days. Might be "disrespectful" in a way, but it simply has not happened - ever - that we have not been able to complete a dungeon. Sure there might be an occasional freak death or whatever, but it's not like none has ever complained. On the contrary, we have probably "carried" quite a few people through vet DLC dungeons, that they have never completed before.

If anyone wants a dead serious 2 DD/1H/1T group, don't use activity finder. As simple as that. It's gambling. You can end up in such as group which still is horrible, or end up in another constellation that works great. Join a PVE guild and find people to regularly do pledges with, if you really need a healer.

This discussion is getting really old. I can agree that a TANK is needed for a lot of content, but as for 4 man content, a healer is rarely needed - except maybe the arenas (for which you can't queue anyway). Someone with "off heals" is probably still enough for much of this too.

Athyrium93 · July 2020

Everyone seems to be ignoring how many bad/new players there are in this game.
My main is a healer running a pretty standard healer kit, and yet I'm usually +50% of the dps in normals and +30% in non-dlc vet, all while providing support and heals, the tank I always play with is usually +25% of dps in normals and +15% in non-dlc vet.
I'm pulling about 20k incidental damage and he's pulling 10k incidental damage.

That means both dps are only pulling around a combined 20k dps in normals and 35k in non-dlc vet.

Those people NEED healers and tanks! I can't imagine how bad a time they have with a "fake" in either role. And I can't imagine how annoying it is for the "fake" tank or healer to get grouped with those people unless they really can solo the dungeon.

If your gonna que as a "fake" please just slot a few skills for the role your queueing for, then your not a fake and can still out dps the entire group! All the new players and just generally bad players will thank you, you won't get kicked, and you still get your quick run. It's a win win for everyone.

maxjapank · July 2020

Only players prepared to heal should be queuing for the healer role. If your pug group happens to be really skilled, then you'll be able to heal less, and focus more on dps. If they aren't, then you should be prepared to heal. It's that simple really. Otherwise form a group with your friends and do whatever you want.

VoxAdActa · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

Players dont have to play how YOU want them to.

You better believe they do when me and my guildies have kick authority.

I queue for healer on my MagDK all the time

Wow, you're That Guy? I never would have guessed.

If you really want to uphold your own self justice rules, then kick him at the beginning of the dungeon.

Players dont have to play how YOU want them to.

Doing it before the last boss is just sad and really unfair to those players.

Sorry not sorry.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · July 2020

Llidoryc wrote: »

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

welcome to eso, this happens alot, fake roles, people rushing the dungeons, it comes down to self heals and them not caring about others, simple fix would be to lock a character in to a role for dungeons and trials and if you wanted to change your character role it would have a week cool down, this would not impact the rest of the game, just the fake rollers

Tigerseye · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

[snip] So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? You want to screw them out of the end goal while using them essentially for the whole run? Yikes.

Dungeons in this game do not all require a tank or a healer. Most dont. They go smoother with 3 to 4 dps. The very difficult dungeons obviously need a more balanced team, but what is much more important for those dungeons is having a full squad who knows how to play, not necessarily their role.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Yes, but the question is not so much whether you can easily/reliably do the lower end dungeons without a tank.

The question is, should 1 of the DPSes get to skip the queue, while the other two DPSes don't?

Also, should the other 2 DPS and the healer have to spend the entire dungeon with mobs not grouped up and the boss running wild, even if the dungeon gets done?

I do get your point that it's sometimes easier and quicker to do with 3 DPSes, but the issue is that it isn't fair if one person gets to skip the queue, due to a having a loose affiliation with the truth, when the other people (doing the same role) don't, due to being truthful.

It's a moral issue and it will put some people, who do not wish to lie, off the game.

Fur_like_snow · July 2020

They really should rename “healer” to “support” it would more accurately describe the role.

Dusk_Coven · July 2020

Llidoryc wrote: »

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

That's the intended design for a dungeon comparable to your skill, level, and gearing.
But there are way too many arrogant overlevelled people in the game who don't care. They just want the rewards and everyone else is just a number to trigger the daily random reward or whatever.
Given the demographic and ZOS's inability to design combat while intending for Tank-Heal-D-D teams, it's really time for a Solo dungeon mode. The breadth of combat options and role options that can be stacked on a single toon's loadout is directly contrary to the THDD paradigm.

And people want more CP benefits? More power creep will only continue to ruin group experiences.

Tigerseye · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? .

Yes.

If you're a DPS, queue as DPS. If you want to queue as a healer, be a healer.

DPS queues aren't long because of some weird ESO mechanic or because ZOS want to spite you. They're long because everyone and their brother wants to be a DPS in every game ever made. They're all long. The solution is to make a new character with a different role, not to get one over on the system. People who get around the rules to the detriment of others aren't clever; they're selfish jerks.

And ultimately, they're hurting themselves, because tanks won't bother using the GF if they know they have better than a 50/50 chance to end up without a healer, and healers won't use the GF if they know there's better than a 50/50 chance they'll end up without a tank. Which makes the DPS queues even longer.

You want to 4-man DPS a vet dlc dungeon? Get friends.

This is all your opinion.

Players dont have to play how YOU want them to. I queue for healer on my MagDK all the time and slot two heal spells, and most of the time, I dont even need to heal because base game dungeons and normal mode dungeons are so easy.

If you really want to uphold your own self justice rules, then kick him at the beginning of the dungeon. Doing it before the last boss is just sad and really unfair to those players.

[Edit to remove bait]

Is it, though?

Or is it the chance you take when you choose to lie?

On the one hand, you skip a long queue.

On the other hand, you run the risk that you might be kicked.

Some would say that was more than fair, because even if you are kicked one dungeon out of ten, you have still skipped hours of queue time.

Raudgrani · July 2020

And as an additional take on this, a lot more often than not when I do queue solo as a healer, I end up in a group where my damage as a healer is probably higher than the one of the DD's. This is incredibly annoying as a tank or healer, to just stand there and watch while some heavy armor CP 810 just stands there and weave Dizzy Swing with heavy attacks, doing about the same DPS as my Wall of Elements or whatever. A dungeon that should take 15 minutes takes 45 minutes or more, it's horrible and very frustrating.

This is probably a large part of the reason why few actual healers (and tanks) queue with Activity Finder. It's excruciating much of the time on non-DLC dungeons, and it just doesn't work on many or most DLC ones. Yes, sometimes you are lucky and get into a "pre-made", or just so happens to get into a group with 3 decent solo players. But that's not very common to be fair.

Tigerseye · July 2020

Raudgrani wrote: »

And as an additional take on this, a lot more often than not when I do queue solo as a healer, I end up in a group where my damage as a healer is probably higher than the one of the DD's. This is incredibly annoying as a tank or healer, to just stand there and watch while some heavy armor CP 810 just stands there and weave Dizzy Swing with heavy attacks, doing about the same DPS as my Wall of Elements or whatever. A dungeon that should take 15 minutes takes 45 minutes or more, it's horrible and very frustrating.

This is probably a large part of the reason why few actual healers (and tanks) queue with Activity Finder. It's excruciating much of the time on non-DLC dungeons, and it just doesn't work on many or most DLC ones. Yes, sometimes you are lucky and get into a "pre-made", or just so happens to get into a group with 3 decent solo players. But that's not very common to be fair.

If you use queue finder, you have to take what you get, from that point of view.

A DPS doing low DPS is not a "fake DPS" (as some people call them), they are (almost certainly) just inexperienced.

Because, if they are really a tank, why on earth would they not just queue as one and skip the queue?

There are zero benefits to queueing as a DPS, when you are not one.

So, people muttering, swearing and hurling the "fake DPS" accusation around, in dungeons (as I witnessed, recently), is totally ridiculous.

redgreensunset · July 2020

The mentality of "I can do this dungeon with 3/4 dds and maybe a tank so no one needs a healer here" is just... baffling. You try going in with level appropriate characters and no knownledge of the mechanics and see how you do without a healer. And again, just because you can doesn't mean everyone can, stop being a *** and fake queue.

Princess_Ciri · July 2020

I don't mind a fake healer, a third dd is usually better (assuming they do more dps than a healer which when u use the group finder is not always the case).

FierceSam · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mazeikeen wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of players who can form a a group who all parses 90k and can burn a dungeon, and know the mechs like the back of their hand, is 1/10000

You don't even need stupidly high DPS, or perfect execution of mechanics. You just need a good tank and DD who stay out of the red and can at least do the mechanics properly.

Would you mind showing me?

Lets que op for Vet Moonhunter Keep hardmode or Icereach Hardmode. I'll take the spot of healer and not heal.

As the guy said:
"also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

I'll be the inexperienced guy here please show me how you do it I'm legitemately interested in it.

People talk like they're the top 1% and it is so easy.

Just strap on vigor 2dds and we roll the dungeon hardmode.

Let me know when I can see it I'm available on both US and EU server.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I love how everyone is pulling back their egos now lolol.

That's the beauty of a multiplayer game, you can put your money where your mouth it.

"nah, you just do this and this brah"
You done it?
.....
Can you show me?
.....

lol

Fact of the matter is if you fake que as dd in the healer spot for Vet dlc the team will not be able to carry you and you'll be kicked.

Depends. But in general if I’m queueing for a DLC dungeon and I’m looking for a healer, I’m expecting heals, resources, buffs, debuffs and, at a pinch, a bit of damage on top.

The toss up you’re making is whether a 3rd DD’s damage outweighs the buffs and heals provided by a healer.

Sadly, there are plenty of circumstances where extra dps will get you through much more easily than less dps, resources, some nice buffs/debuffs, more heals and a longer fight. Especially in DLC dungeons. Especially on hard mode.

That said, if you’re looking for a group using the group finder, you have to be something of a w***er to pretend to be either a tank or a healer when you’re actually a DD. And I’ll happily kick you just for that.

holden_caulfield · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

Further more, there are some points that need to be understood regarding the subject.

Once upon a time many moons ago, eso did not exactly adhere to the holy trinity of tank healer dps group mandate for its instanced pve content. This was, like many elements of eso, an attempt to disassociate itself from traditional mmo rpgs that it was not trying to be labeled as.

Generally speaking, in group content, all players were expected to in some way manage their own survivability. You can even see this ideology today in DSA where the lack of strict role mechanics is apparent.

Over time this idea faded and eso embraced a more traditional trinity approach to group pve. Early days of champion points felt right but power creep began to set in and zos had no choice but to establish a cp cap that they would slowly increase over time to create the illusion of power progression. When this cap was set, veteran dungeons felt balanced and dlc dungeons were truly engaging and required focused roles. imperial city prison and white gold tower, two of the earliest dlc dungeons were VERY challenging, imo they were tuned just right for veteran content. But slowly and surely, co cap was increased and increased and general player power crept back up, not to the point of when there was no cp cap per say but when you couple the cp cap increases with an updated design philosophy of how 4 player dungeons should be tuned, both veteran and normal, the current environment is what players are left with.

Mechanically speaking, there is actually very little zos can do. Healing needs to be auto targeted as a rule due to the nature of targeting in this game. If you create one shot mechanics, then healing is irrelevant compared to obeying said mechanics. If you have non lethal but constant group wide damage in an encounter, then players will easily manage it with various healing tools like the aforementioned vigor or healing springs. One could argue that the solution is simply add substantial group wide healing to most boss encounters to force the presence of a dedicated healer but that comes with it's own set of undesirables. Healers would have to waste most GCDs spamming aoe heals and having little else to do.

People dont want to admit it or they simply dont see it, but the truth is that alot of core design choices made for this game where made with the vision of this game being closer to an online TES you can play friends instead of it being embraced as an mmo. It's why it took forever for us to even get floating combat text and buff timers and still dont have cast and channel bars nor an actual GCD indicator built into the game, all creature comforts that an mmo should absolutely have. And it's why healers in groups is currently a viewed as a negative on the backdrop of how encounters have to be designed to adhere to the "skyrim online" position of this games early days.

If we had targetable allies for specific healing and cleansing among other things, healer roles could be made more meaningful. Likewise, the attractive positive aspect of this game in regards to flexible customizable build options runs at odds with conventional tank healer dps mmo pve instanced encounter design.

I dont really remember the time you are talking about. Holy trinity was always present in eso in dung and trials.

The fact that healing strengh is tied to the same stats that determine dps and that everyone can equip a resto staff is ofc bound to make healers obsolete.
The only way to reverse this is to create content in which incoming damage is so high that would force dd to stop doing damage to keep on healing themselves or have someone dedicated to that task

Elwendryll · July 2020

Fake roles are bad.
If you are fake tanking. Slot a taunt, keep the boss in place, and don't die. After that, you can dps as much as you want.
If you're a fake healer. Just slot a heal and orbs (it does good damage anyway), and then dps as much as you want. Some new players need everyone to play according to the standard composition to learn.

It is true that most dungeons don't require a healer (or even a tank for some), and it's actually faster to go with 3 DD.

It's absolutely possible to clear some Trifectas with 3 DDs, (Moon Hunter Keep for example, talking from experience), but that's with a group of people who know each other, not a PuG, so it's irrelevant.

Anyway, I never use the finder myself. I stopped when I realized there were less performance issues after porting in rather than using the finder with an already full group, for some reason.

ZaroktheImmortal · July 2020

I've had the same issue with fake tanks. I had a fake tank rage quit a dungeon when we all died cause they couldn't do their role.