Non-healers queuing up in healer slot?

Llidoryc · July 2020

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Llidoryc wrote: »

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

That is actually a debatable statement. With the current power level of a max lvl character, most dungeons do not require dedicated healers at all.

Ita actually getting to the point where most dungeon content dps needs are easily met while leaving room for off heals like vigor or any magicka healing ability to cover any healing needs and where most players are required to sustain themselves while correctly obeying mechanics.

If its non dlc non vet dungeons, you positively do not need a healer, if its dlc vet dungeons you also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it. For vet dlc dungeons where you are going for hard mode on the last boss, there are some encounters that are demanding in terms of group wide healing, but most people going for hard modes dont use the group finder.

CassandraGemini · July 2020

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Further more, there are some points that need to be understood regarding the subject.

Once upon a time many moons ago, eso did not exactly adhere to the holy trinity of tank healer dps group mandate for its instanced pve content. This was, like many elements of eso, an attempt to disassociate itself from traditional mmo rpgs that it was not trying to be labeled as.

Generally speaking, in group content, all players were expected to in some way manage their own survivability. You can even see this ideology today in DSA where the lack of strict role mechanics is apparent.

Over time this idea faded and eso embraced a more traditional trinity approach to group pve. Early days of champion points felt right but power creep began to set in and zos had no choice but to establish a cp cap that they would slowly increase over time to create the illusion of power progression. When this cap was set, veteran dungeons felt balanced and dlc dungeons were truly engaging and required focused roles. imperial city prison and white gold tower, two of the earliest dlc dungeons were VERY challenging, imo they were tuned just right for veteran content. But slowly and surely, co cap was increased and increased and general player power crept back up, not to the point of when there was no cp cap per say but when you couple the cp cap increases with an updated design philosophy of how 4 player dungeons should be tuned, both veteran and normal, the current environment is what players are left with.

Mechanically speaking, there is actually very little zos can do. Healing needs to be auto targeted as a rule due to the nature of targeting in this game. If you create one shot mechanics, then healing is irrelevant compared to obeying said mechanics. If you have non lethal but constant group wide damage in an encounter, then players will easily manage it with various healing tools like the aforementioned vigor or healing springs. One could argue that the solution is simply add substantial group wide healing to most boss encounters to force the presence of a dedicated healer but that comes with it's own set of undesirables. Healers would have to waste most GCDs spamming aoe heals and having little else to do.

People dont want to admit it or they simply dont see it, but the truth is that alot of core design choices made for this game where made with the vision of this game being closer to an online TES you can play friends instead of it being embraced as an mmo. It's why it took forever for us to even get floating combat text and buff timers and still dont have cast and channel bars nor an actual GCD indicator built into the game, all creature comforts that an mmo should absolutely have. And it's why healers in groups is currently a viewed as a negative on the backdrop of how encounters have to be designed to adhere to the "skyrim online" position of this games early days.

If we had targetable allies for specific healing and cleansing among other things, healer roles could be made more meaningful. Likewise, the attractive positive aspect of this game in regards to flexible customizable build options runs at odds with conventional tank healer dps mmo pve instanced encounter design.

exeeter702 · July 2020

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

The difference is fake healers arent queuing to dodge queue times. They are queuing as healer because healers are generally not needed.

ForeverJenn · July 2020

I'm usually always healer. I have 6. My role is mostly support and extra dps unless it's vet dlc. I've levelled a few tanks too and noticed that healers usually aren't very good in randoms. But to the point above, tanks and healers aren't even needed until vet dlc. However I'd disagree "on most dlc dungeons don't need a healer". I mean maybe if DPS didn't ever stand in stupid. But come on. Let's be real.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

Llidoryc wrote: »

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

That is actually a debatable statement. With the current power level of a max lvl character, most dungeons do not require dedicated healers at all.

Ita actually getting to the point where most dungeon content dps needs are easily met while leaving room for off heals like vigor or any magicka healing ability to cover any healing needs and where most players are required to sustain themselves while correctly obeying mechanics.

If its non dlc non vet dungeons, you positively do not need a healer, if its dlc vet dungeons you also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it. For vet dlc dungeons where you are going for hard mode on the last boss, there are some encounters that are demanding in terms of group wide healing, but most people going for hard modes dont use the group finder.

PUG Vet DLC not requireing a healer and sometimes not even for hardmode lolol.

Must PUGs would fail vet DLC without a healer.

mazeikeen · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of players who can form a a group who all parses 90k and can burn a dungeon, and know the mechs like the back of their hand, is 1/10000

You don't even need stupidly high DPS, or perfect execution of mechanics. You just need a good tank and DD who stay out of the red and can do the mechanics properly.

Edit: also, to be honest, some vet dlc hardmodes do require really tight performance on mechanics, but those ones also require that with a healer. Healers are not a saftey net for squishy DDs. A damage dealer who stands in stupid will still die on vet dlc hardmode even with a healer.

Stx · July 2020

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

[snip] So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? You want to screw them out of the end goal while using them essentially for the whole run? Yikes.

Dungeons in this game do not all require a tank or a healer. Most dont. They go smoother with 3 to 4 dps. The very difficult dungeons obviously need a more balanced team, but what is much more important for those dungeons is having a full squad who knows how to play, not necessarily their role.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Linaleah · July 2020

every time someone says that "healers are not needed in dungeons!!!!" I think back to countless pugs where I couldn't dps even when i wanted to because those pugs most definitely CERTAINLY required healing if I wanted to be done at all

your organized group of people you know that are working as a team =/= your average pug.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

mazeikeen wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of players who can form a a group who all parses 90k and can burn a dungeon, and know the mechs like the back of their hand, is 1/10000

You don't even need stupidly high DPS, or perfect execution of mechanics. You just need a good tank and DD who stay out of the red and can at least do the mechanics properly.

Would you mind showing me?

CassandraGemini · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

The difference is fake healers arent queuing to dodge queue times. They are queuing as healer because healers are generally not needed.

Yeah, I got a bit worked up here about the fake tanks, lol. I generally have much more tolerance for fake healers than tanks, because usually you can do without a real healer, and I don't vote kick them unless they're not bringing anything to the group at all. Fake tanks, though... yeah, not starting again, I've had my share of bad experiences with those.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

every time someone says that "healers are not needed in dungeons!!!!" I think back to countless pugs where I couldn't dps even when i wanted to because those pugs most definitely CERTAINLY required healing if I wanted to be done at all

your organized group of people you know that are working as a team =/= your average pug.

No actually, that is the entire point. If you have a very poor dps who is standing in red or simply does not understand what a rotation is, you as a healer could simply slot one heal, then proceed to dps and 9 time out of 10, there will be more group wide damage going out then if you constantly wasted time keeping a bad dps alive.

If your dice roll is so unfortunate that your entire group is very subpar, you have to bite the bullet and endure a greatly elongated dungeon run, but that is another discussion entirely.

VoxAdActa · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? .

Yes.

If you're a DPS, queue as DPS. If you want to queue as a healer, be a healer.

DPS queues aren't long because of some weird ESO mechanic or because ZOS want to spite you. They're long because everyone and their brother wants to be a DPS in every game ever made. They're all long. The solution is to make a new character with a different role, not to get one over on the system. People who get around the rules to the detriment of others aren't clever; they're selfish jerks.

And ultimately, they're hurting themselves, because tanks won't bother using the GF if they know they have better than a 50/50 chance to end up without a healer, and healers won't use the GF if they know there's better than a 50/50 chance they'll end up without a tank. Which makes the DPS queues even longer.

You want to 4-man DPS a vet dlc dungeon? Get friends.

mazeikeen · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Would you mind showing me?

Lets que op for Vet Moonhunter Keep hardmode or Icereach Hardmode. I'll take the spot of healer and not heal.

As the guy said:
"also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

I'll be the inexperienced guy here please show me how you do it I'm legitemately interested in it.

People talk like they're the top 1% and it is so easy.

Just strap on vigor 2dds and we roll the dungeon hardmode.

Let me know when I can see it I'm available on both US and EU server.

First of all, I am not that other person. I never said you could 3-person vet moonhunter or vet icereach. Though, you probably could. I just never have personally.

Second, when people say you don't need a healer, they don't mean a tank and two damage dealers. They still go in with four people, just three of those are DD. Usually they also have really high DPS, but you can get away with one or two having mid-high DPS. I've done it before.

Third, I dont do carries. Unless you're willing to pay 😉

exeeter702 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mazeikeen wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of players who can form a a group who all parses 90k and can burn a dungeon, and know the mechs like the back of their hand, is 1/10000

You don't even need stupidly high DPS, or perfect execution of mechanics. You just need a good tank and DD who stay out of the red and can at least do the mechanics properly.

Would you mind showing me?

Lets que op for Vet Moonhunter Keep hardmode or Icereach Hardmode. I'll take the spot of healer and not heal.

As the guy said:
"also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

I'll be the inexperienced guy here please show me how you do it I'm legitemately interested in it.

People talk like they're the top 1% and it is so easy.

Just strap on vigor 2dds and we roll the dungeon hardmode.

Let me know when I can see it I'm available on both US and EU server.

You need to make sure you are reading the comment correctly before making statements like this. I never said 3 players can carry an inexperienced 4th when going for hard modes. I said in most dlc vet dungeons, 3 players can carry an inexperienced player.

For hard modes I said, most groups do not use the group finder and form organized groups accordingly.

I never said anything about carrying an inexperienced player through a vet dlc hardmode. Nor was I equating inexperienced players to those in the healer role.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mazeikeen wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of players who can form a a group who all parses 90k and can burn a dungeon, and know the mechs like the back of their hand, is 1/10000

You don't even need stupidly high DPS, or perfect execution of mechanics. You just need a good tank and DD who stay out of the red and can at least do the mechanics properly.

Would you mind showing me?

Lets que op for Vet Moonhunter Keep hardmode or Icereach Hardmode. I'll take the spot of healer and not heal.

As the guy said:
"also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

I'll be the inexperienced guy here please show me how you do it I'm legitemately interested in it.

People talk like they're the top 1% and it is so easy.

Just strap on vigor 2dds and we roll the dungeon hardmode.

Let me know when I can see it I'm available on both US and EU server.

You need to make sure you are reading the comment correctly before making statements like this. I never said 3 players can carry an inexperienced 4th when going for hard modes. I said in most dlc vet dungeons, 3 players can carry an inexperienced player.

For hard modes I said, most groups do not use the group finder and form organized groups accordingly.

I never said anything about carrying an inexperienced player through a vet dlc hardmode. Nor was I equating inexperienced players to those in the healer role.

This is your direct quote:

"if its dlc vet dungeons you also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

In must situations if you PUG vet DLC with fake healers you'll not make it.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

mazeikeen wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of players who can form a a group who all parses 90k and can burn a dungeon, and know the mechs like the back of their hand, is 1/10000

You don't even need stupidly high DPS, or perfect execution of mechanics. You just need a good tank and DD who stay out of the red and can at least do the mechanics properly.

Would you mind showing me?

Lets que op for Vet Moonhunter Keep hardmode or Icereach Hardmode. I'll take the spot of healer and not heal.

As the guy said:
"also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

I'll be the inexperienced guy here please show me how you do it I'm legitemately interested in it.

People talk like they're the top 1% and it is so easy.

Just strap on vigor 2dds and we roll the dungeon hardmode.

Let me know when I can see it I'm available on both US and EU server.

You need to make sure you are reading the comment correctly before making statements like this. I never said 3 players can carry an inexperienced 4th when going for hard modes. I said in most dlc vet dungeons, 3 players can carry an inexperienced player.

For hard modes I said, most groups do not use the group finder and form organized groups accordingly.

I never said anything about carrying an inexperienced player through a vet dlc hardmode. Nor was I equating inexperienced players to those in the healer role.

This is your direct quote:

"if its dlc vet dungeons you also often dont need a healer unless you have a very inexperienced player in the group, and at that point you can just 3 man it."

Yes, where in that quote did I mention hard mode lol....

CassandraGemini · July 2020

Stx wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

It happens with tanks as well, which is, arguably, even worse. The "benefit" is very one-sided, since it pretty much only benefits the people queueing for the wrong role, because the queueing time is much, much shorter for tanks and healers. For tanks it's sometimes almost instant, as opposed to waiting for what can sometimes be more than an hour as a DD.
Some people will argue that they can complete content faster with fake tanks/healers, who act as additional DDs instead, but I think it's just bad behaviour. They do it to skip the waiting time, that's it. If they want to go as fast as possible with 3 or 4 dps, they should go with a pre-made instead of a PUG. And when it comes to vet content, that's when there's definitely no place for fakes anymore.

Personally, whenever I encounter a fake tank in a PUG, I vote to kick them (which is not something I am quick to do otherwise), preferably just before the last boss. I just really don't like the attitude that drives these guys/gals.

[snip] So the dungeon was completed successfully but you try to vote kick someone just because of your personal sense of what's right? You want to screw them out of the end goal while using them essentially for the whole run? Yikes.

Dungeons in this game do not all require a tank or a healer. Most dont. They go smoother with 3 to 4 dps. The very difficult dungeons obviously need a more balanced team, but what is much more important for those dungeons is having a full squad who knows how to play, not necessarily their role.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

If you want to see it as "completely successful" that someone runs ahead of the whole group without caring what anyone else wants/thinks or talking to them about it in the first place (we're talking about normal dungeons here, just to be clear), then yes, absolutely. Sure, you get it done, but that is just not acceptable behaviour in my book, sorry! If you want to act like that, you can go and solo the dungeon, no one will tell you what to do then. But if you PUG and go in as a group, please act like you're in a group! You don't care about anyone else? Okay, but don't expect the others to care about you either!

mazeikeen · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I love how everyone is pulling back their egos now lolol.

That's the beauty of a multiplayer game, you can put your money where your mouth it.

"nah, you just do this and this brah"
You done it?
.....
Can you show me?
.....

lol

Fact of the matter is if you fake que as dd in the healer spot for Vet dlc the team will now be able to carry you and you'll be kicked.

I just don't get how you want me to show you? There's plenty of videos of people soloing vet DLC hardmode dungeons, so it's not crazy to believe that you can do them without a healer. And I can't just quick do one real quick and post the video, and even if I could right now, I wouldn't because you would find some reason why it is not acceptable proof. And a carry is out of the question.

Hmm... Hold on a second. Did you just veer this thread so off topic as a way to not-so-subtly try and get someone to carry you through a vet hardmode for a complete? Hmm...

exeeter702 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I love how everyone is pulling back their egos now lolol.

That's the beauty of a multiplayer game, you can put your money where your mouth it.

"nah, you just do this and this brah"
You done it?
.....
Can you show me?
.....

lol

Fact of the matter is if you fake que as dd in the healer spot for Vet dlc the team will not be able to carry you and you'll be kicked.

That has nothing to do with the question being asked by the OP and the answer to it. Fact of the matter is most queue as healer with light healing because most group finder content does not require a healer. Take that truth any way you wish, and by all means vote kick the person in question, but it is simply the current situation of the game. Take it up with the developers instead of getting upset at those playing the game in front of them.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I love how everyone is pulling back their egos now lolol.

That's the beauty of a multiplayer game, you can put your money where your mouth it.

"nah, you just do this and this brah"
You done it?
.....
Can you show me?
.....

lol

Fact of the matter is if you fake que as dd in the healer spot for Vet dlc the team will not be able to carry you and you'll be kicked.

That has nothing to do with the question being asked by the OP and the answer to it. Fact of the matter is most queue as healer with light healing because most group finder content does not require a healer. Take that truth any way you wish, and by all means vote kick the person in question, but it is simply the current situation of the game. Take it up with the developers instead of getting upset at those playing the game in front of them.

Oh I'm not upset.

And yes for regular vet the majority will get by 3dd

For the vast majority of PUGs you'll wipe your team and they'll hate you for it if you que for healer as a DD in vet DLC.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I love how everyone is pulling back their egos now lolol.

That's the beauty of a multiplayer game, you can put your money where your mouth it.

"nah, you just do this and this brah"
You done it?
.....
Can you show me?
.....

lol

Fact of the matter is if you fake que as dd in the healer spot for Vet dlc the team will not be able to carry you and you'll be kicked.

That has nothing to do with the question being asked by the OP and the answer to it. Fact of the matter is most queue as healer with light healing because most group finder content does not require a healer. Take that truth any way you wish, and by all means vote kick the person in question, but it is simply the current situation of the game. Take it up with the developers instead of getting upset at those playing the game in front of them.

Oh I'm not upset.

And yes for regular vet the majority will get by 3dd

It's when people talk the bro-science I simply ask them to show me.

It's like listening to a bunch of dudes in the locker room "dude take these pills man you'll be swole as **** and be a chick magnet" and the guy taking it is 100lb soaking wet wearing boots.

For the vast majority you'll wipe your team and they'll hate you for it if you que for healer as a DD in vet DLC.

If you disagree and it's super common and totally doable even for 3men with an inexperienced player I simply asked you to show me how it's done, and none of you took me up on it.

Exeeter 1 dd
Mazeiken 2dd
Only need 1 more tank, we que you can shut me up right now?

I'll even apologize and call you the 1%er how is that? Yes, Yes? Spicy...

You misread my quote entirely ragarding hard modes and lunged at the comment I made, and now you are using locker room bro metaphors and you want people to take you up "prove me wrong" logic?

The op asked why healers are often damage dealers, the answer to that question was provided and is entirely due to the current environment of this games 4 man content design. The discussion ends there. If you find it unreasonable or unbelievable that vet dlc dungeons can be done without a healer or with only 3 (NOT HARD MODE) then perhaps get your friends together and test it yourself. Saying it's only the top 2 percent is egregious imo. The culprit for why this is has everything to do with cp power creep and generous aoe healing sets and whatnot that enable groups to use a 3rd DD instead of a fully dedicated healer. Is it selfish to queue up in the group finder in this manner? Sure potentially, but that doesnt change to reason for the OPs question nor the answer.

idk · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

Llidoryc wrote: »

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

That is actually a debatable statement. With the current power level of a max lvl character, most dungeons do not require dedicated healers at all.

Replying to a debatable statement with one that is quite literally just as debatable is creating a debate.

The fact is, and this is not debatable, there are a great many players that lack the skill to clear many dungeons without a healer and without a tank. When using the group finder one is significantly more likely to be placed into groups with players at this skill level.

It takes very skilled players to clear MOST vet dungeons without a healer and even fairly well-skilled players to clear many without a healer, this is not the type of group one typically gets via the GF.

Heck, the past couple weeks a friend and myself decided to start queueing to see what we got for a DPS and healer. Just the DPS alone he was doing 80-90% of the groups damage even when the healer was also contributing damage. So yes, skill level varies greatly and OP brings up a good point when it comes to the GF.

BTW, kick the fake healers and tanks and be done. Better yet, form your own group and have much smoother runs to begin with.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

There's a huge difference between what us mere mortals are able to get away with and what the top 5% guild guys are able to get away with.

The top guys post awesome video's of "I solo'd vet Cradle of Shadows" or We Speedrun no death Moon Hunter Keep HM, and people think oh that's what everyone is doing now?

No, that's what the absolute top of players who got this game down to a perfect science does.

Sometimes I feel sorry for the average player looking through the comment section of 810cp people telling them "40k single parse" is "average" while at cp160 they're at 15k doing light attack weaving still missing 600+ cp (and no even then it's not easy, otherwise most of my PUG dungeons as tank wouldn't take 40 minutes). I would be extremely surprised if most of the playerbase have even touched Vet dungeons.

Another example is in this thread about queing up for fake healer. Some poor guy reads this, que up for random Veteran as dd, gets Bloodroot Forge, team wipe first boss. Suddenly he's surprised that he gets vote kicked and gets whispers telling him how ugly his mother is.

"But.. but Forum said" lol

Lets agree to disagree it will not keep me away from wishing you all a lovely evening regardless.

exeeter702 · July 2020

idk wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Llidoryc wrote: »

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

That is actually a debatable statement. With the current power level of a max lvl character, most dungeons do not require dedicated healers at all.

Replying to a debatable statement with one that is quite literally just as debatable is creating a debate.

The fact is, and this is not debatable, there are a great many players that lack the skill to clear many dungeons without a healer and without a tank. When using the group finder one is significantly more likely to be placed into groups with players at this skill level.

It takes very skilled players to clear MOST vet dungeons without a healer and even fairly well-skilled players to clear many without a healer, this is not the type of group one typically gets via the GF.

Heck, the past couple weeks a friend and myself decided to start queueing to see what we got for a DPS and healer. Just the DPS alone he was doing 80-90% of the groups damage even when the healer was also contributing damage. So yes, skill level varies greatly and OP brings up a good point when it comes to the GF.

BTW, kick the fake healers and tanks and be done. Better yet, form your own group and have much smoother runs to begin with.

It seems people are conflating the reason with justifying the action....

The fact is that 4 man dungeon content in eso has increasingly over time not required a dedicated healer due to power creep via items cp etc etc. That is why people enter dungeons without a healer and why many players with that understanding do so via the group finder.

This wasnt a discussion about the appropriate etiquette when dealing with the group finder and false roles in parties. The op asked why people queue for healer but dont fufill a full on healer role, the answer to that was explained. I said the statement is debatable because many would say that encounters that actually DO require healers are in the minority especially considering the op did not specify vet and non vet, so I'd say if you collectively look at all 4 man group finder content, the majority does not require a healer and thus would heavily influence how many "healers" are queuing via group finder.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

There's a huge difference between what us mere mortals are able to get away with and what the top 5% guild guys are able to get away with.

The top guys post awesome video's of "I solo'd vet Cradle of Shadows" or We Speedrun no death Moon Hunter Keep HM, and people think oh that's what everyone is doing now?

No, that's what the absolute top of players who got this game down to a perfect science does.

Sometimes I feel sorry for the average player looking through the comment section of 810cp people telling them "40k single parse" is "average" while at cp160 they're at 15k doing light attack weaving still missing 600+ cp (and no even then it's not easy, otherwise most of my PUG dungeons as tank wouldn't take 40 minutes). I would be extremely surprised if most of the playerbase have even touched Vet dungeons.

Another example is in this thread about queing up for fake healer. Some poor guy reads this, que up for random Veteran as dd, gets Bloodroot Forge, team wipe first boss. Suddenly he's surprised that he gets vote kicked and gets whispers telling him how ugly his mother is.

"But.. but Forum said" lol

Lets agree to disagree it will not keep me away from wishing you all a lovely evening regardless.

Just to be 100 percent clear here, you do realize that vet dlc dungeons require 300cp minimum to queue up for.

You seem to have a very specific viewpoint here.

810cp is not an indication of anything. If you are a new player you are not queuing up for vet dlc dungeons. Likewise 15 to 20k dps is absolutely enough dps for any 4 man vet dungeon. This is the issue man, healers are not required BECAUSE most hard encounters are strict mechanic checks, and any dps check that exists is easily met with 15k from everyone in the group. Someone getting kicked from vet brf as a dd? I'm confused by this statement, are you saying that because the brf group had a fake healer, that the dd in said group dies and gets kicked? Or are you suggesting that a new player comes here reads this and think they can queue as a healer while being on a dps build and nothing will go wrong when doing vet dungeons?

Honestly I'm not sure where you are going with that.

You are turning this into an elitist discussion when it never was one to begin with.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

There's a huge difference between what us mere mortals are able to get away with and what the top 5% guild guys are able to get away with.

The top guys post awesome video's of "I solo'd vet Cradle of Shadows" or We Speedrun no death Moon Hunter Keep HM, and people think oh that's what everyone is doing now?

No, that's what the absolute top of players who got this game down to a perfect science does.

Sometimes I feel sorry for the average player looking through the comment section of 810cp people telling them "40k single parse" is "average" while at cp160 they're at 15k doing light attack weaving still missing 600+ cp (and no even then it's not easy, otherwise most of my PUG dungeons as tank wouldn't take 40 minutes). I would be extremely surprised if most of the playerbase have even touched Vet dungeons.

Another example is in this thread about queing up for fake healer. Some poor guy reads this, que up for random Veteran as dd, gets Bloodroot Forge, team wipe first boss. Suddenly he's surprised that he gets vote kicked and gets whispers telling him how ugly his mother is.

"But.. but Forum said" lol

Lets agree to disagree it will not keep me away from wishing you all a lovely evening regardless.

Just to be 100 percent clear here, you do realize that vet dlc dungeons require 300cp minimum to queue up for.

You seem to have a very specific viewpoint here.

810cp is not an indication of anything. If you are a new player you are not queuing up for vet dlc dungeons. Likewise 15 to 20k dps is absolutely enough dps for any 4 man vet dungeon. This is the issue man, healers are not required BECAUSE most hard encounters are strict mechanic checks, and any dps check that exists is easily met with 15k from everyone in the group. Someone getting kicked from vet brf as a dd? I'm confused by this statement, are you saying that because the brf group had a fake healer, that the dd in said group dies and gets kicked? Honestly I'm not sure where you are going with that.

You are turning this into an elitist discussion when it never was one to begin with.

No I'm not, I'm telling you that I think you're spreading misinformation around.
This thread is about people using the dungeon finder to que as a fake healer and you're saying it's acceptable even for Vet DLC. I'm telling you that's not the reality I've seen and I've asked you to prove me wrong several times, but you've failed to do so.

If you fake que vet DLC in the dungeon finder 999 out of 1000 your team will wipe first boss and they'll hate you for it.
The average player group (which pug is) can not handle fake roles in vet dlc.
That is my firm believe and it's perfectly within the topic.

exeeter702 · July 2020

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

There's a huge difference between what us mere mortals are able to get away with and what the top 5% guild guys are able to get away with.

The top guys post awesome video's of "I solo'd vet Cradle of Shadows" or We Speedrun no death Moon Hunter Keep HM, and people think oh that's what everyone is doing now?

No, that's what the absolute top of players who got this game down to a perfect science does.

Sometimes I feel sorry for the average player looking through the comment section of 810cp people telling them "40k single parse" is "average" while at cp160 they're at 15k doing light attack weaving still missing 600+ cp (and no even then it's not easy, otherwise most of my PUG dungeons as tank wouldn't take 40 minutes). I would be extremely surprised if most of the playerbase have even touched Vet dungeons.

Another example is in this thread about queing up for fake healer. Some poor guy reads this, que up for random Veteran as dd, gets Bloodroot Forge, team wipe first boss. Suddenly he's surprised that he gets vote kicked and gets whispers telling him how ugly his mother is.

"But.. but Forum said" lol

Lets agree to disagree it will not keep me away from wishing you all a lovely evening regardless.

Just to be 100 percent clear here, you do realize that vet dlc dungeons require 300cp minimum to queue up for.

You seem to have a very specific viewpoint here.

810cp is not an indication of anything. If you are a new player you are not queuing up for vet dlc dungeons. Likewise 15 to 20k dps is absolutely enough dps for any 4 man vet dungeon. This is the issue man, healers are not required BECAUSE most hard encounters are strict mechanic checks, and any dps check that exists is easily met with 15k from everyone in the group. Someone getting kicked from vet brf as a dd? I'm confused by this statement, are you saying that because the brf group had a fake healer, that the dd in said group dies and gets kicked? Honestly I'm not sure where you are going with that.

You are turning this into an elitist discussion when it never was one to begin with.

No I'm not, I'm telling you that I think you're spreading misinformation around.
This thread is about people using the dungeon finder to que as a fake healer and you're saying it's acceptable even for Vet DLC. I'm telling you that's not the reality I've seen and I've asked you to prove me wrong several times, but you've failed to do so.

If you fake que vet DLC in the dungeon finder 999 out of 1000 your team will wipe first boss and they'll hate you for it.
The average player group (which pug is) can not handle fake roles in vet dlc.
That is my firm believe and it's perfectly within the topic.

Ok hold up, I never once said it was acceptable, you are confusing the reason for which people queue as healer when they are on DD with justifying the action.

I have explained WHY people do it and it has do with the how eso dungeons are currently tuned against the average player power and encounter design. I do not engage with the group finder at all anymore because of this very reason. I would much rather engage in 4 man content with everyone on the same page who understands the game.

This is the second time you have injected a false statement in an attempt to use it as a platform to make a point. There is no misinformation being spread. The majority of 4 man group finder content does not require a healer. That is not an opinion. If one is going to use the group finder tool, it would responsible of them to adhere to the groups needs and not project their standards, no matter how reasonable, into those that dont share them. That is the conceit one makes when not forming a group manually. This does not change the fact that many players understand that the content they are queuing for does not need a healer and that they might selfishly roll the dice and hope for 3 other strong players who also understand this.

idk · July 2020

exeeter702 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Llidoryc wrote: »

So I've noticed this happens quite frequently. Non-healers that queue up in the healer slot in dungeon finder. What is the benefit of this? because there are dungeons that if you don't have a quality healer, there it is no way you're going to complete the activity.

That is actually a debatable statement. With the current power level of a max lvl character, most dungeons do not require dedicated healers at all.

Replying to a debatable statement with one that is quite literally just as debatable is creating a debate.

The fact is, and this is not debatable, there are a great many players that lack the skill to clear many dungeons without a healer and without a tank. When using the group finder one is significantly more likely to be placed into groups with players at this skill level.

It takes very skilled players to clear MOST vet dungeons without a healer and even fairly well-skilled players to clear many without a healer, this is not the type of group one typically gets via the GF.

Heck, the past couple weeks a friend and myself decided to start queueing to see what we got for a DPS and healer. Just the DPS alone he was doing 80-90% of the groups damage even when the healer was also contributing damage. So yes, skill level varies greatly and OP brings up a good point when it comes to the GF.

BTW, kick the fake healers and tanks and be done. Better yet, form your own group and have much smoother runs to begin with.

It seems people are the reason with justifying the action....

The fact is that 4 man dungeon content in eso has increasingly over time not required a dedicated healer due to power creep via items cp etc etc. That is why people enter dungeons without a healer and why many players with that understanding do so via the group finder.

This wasnt a discussion about the appropriate etiquette when dealing with the group finder and false roles in parties. The op asked why people queue for healer but dont fufill a full on healer role, the answer to that was explained. I said the statement is debatable because many would say that encounters that actually DO require healers are in the minority especially considering the op did not specify vet and non vet, so I'd say if you collectively look at all 4 man group finder content, the majority does not require a healer and thus would heavily influence how many "healers" are queuing via group finder.

I am fully aware of the FACT that we have grown stronger over time making older content easier. However, I am equally aware of the FACT that a great number of players still struggle with the older content due to being less skilled. I realize that not everyone plays as well as I do.

So it seems rather unfounded to suggest I am conflating anything. I am just aware of the facts and state them as they really are.

BTW, people queue up for fake roles to get a faster queue. Not because most or any dungeons can be cleared without that role when I used queue as a healer to help the GF I found fake tanks to be poor DPS and oblivious to mechanics as they would die to one-shots that could be avoided. That alone demonstrates well that is extremely misguided to suggest that most dungeons are easy enough to clear without specific roles for pretty much any group.

Cheers and have a good day.