Harrowstorm Difficulty and Potential Nerf

trackdemon5512 · June 2020

Harrowstorms seem to be exponentially harder than any of the previous dolmen-type zone events with more damage being put out than vet trials. This is attributable to a few factors:

1) The soul sacrifices to the witches pokes spawn and move quickly. Fast enough to the point that small groups are quickly overwhelmed by the vet-dungeon boss strength adds that are summoned as a result.

2) The damage output of these summons is off the chart. Carrion Swarm by the Harrowstorm Shrike can easily put out 50k dmg in about a second to players not even standing in or close to the roaming AOE. I’ve experienced large groups fighting these monsters and my tank, which can complete vet DLC dungeon hard modes sans healers with no difficulty, is easily wiped here again and again.

3) All of this stacks hard and quickly. You can easily get 3 or 4 summons up in addition to several small adds and groups of a few people die quickly and often. So quickly that they actually revive to immediately die again without having a chance to set up a defense.

4) The champion summon at the end is much easier than the rest of the storm because the attacks follow traditional boss mechanics, are telegraphed well, and manageable. Deaths during this part come from the overpowered previously summoned lords whose abilities are going off all over the place.

All of this adds up to a frustrating experience when going to combat these events. These experiences also tend to be costly as the number of deaths and the amount of damage rapidly destroys player gear. Please address.

Taleof2Cities · June 2020

I think the Harrowstorms are fine, @trackdemon5512.

These are world events ... so you'll want to bring more than just "small groups" to fight them.

In addition, just like any other basic game mechanic, players shouldn't stand in red. Trying to melee right on the witches pikes ... or melee on one of the mini-bosses for too long will result in death.

Other than fixing the spawn bugs I don't think these need changed.

Alienoutlaw · June 2020

they are fine just as is, if you watched the greymoor trailer you would of seen the speed that things move, it does exactly that, as @Taleof2Cities said its a world event ment for many ppl not your average world boss or dragon

trackdemon5512 · June 2020

@Alienoutlaw and @Taleof2Cities the purpose of a world event is to be enjoyable and yet at the same time fair. All other events are relatively well balanced. Geysers tone down difficulty based on the players attempting them. Dolmens are easily done solo at a certain level. Dragons are difficult but follow the design rules where attacks can be telegraphed or avoided.

The current Harrowstorms are a mess. Yes they can be done with large groups just like all other world events but the difficulty here is significantly ramped up and it’s more a result of poor design than providing a proper challenge. Everything is literally red at all times. You have far too many strong AOE attacks capable of one-shots with no warning. I’ve seen entire large groups of 15+ players where 13 of them will go down instantly again and again due to bad damage mechanics. And these are high level players who know how to play the game.

There is a difference between cheap deaths and difficult content deaths. Games such as Super Ghouls and Ghosts have difficult content deaths but are totally avoidable if mechanics and game rules are followed. The deaths in Harrowstorms are cheap. Bad telegraphs, damage everywhere that’s impossible to either avoid or for so powerful that characters built to heal/tank trial HMs instantly wipe to are cheap deaths. There’s no reward for learning as you’re killed because the game does so with no intention of being reasonable.

idk · June 2020

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I think the Harrowstorms are fine, @trackdemon5512.

These are world events ... so you'll want to bring more than just "small groups" to fight them.

In addition, just like any other basic game mechanic, players shouldn't stand in red. Trying to melee right on the witches pikes ... or melee on one of the mini-bosses for too long will result in death.

Other than fixing the spawn bugs I don't think these need changed.

Pretty much this.

As one who has thought WBs and Dolmens in the base game were far to easy from the first day this game was live it is good that some of the newer group challenges actually offer a little challenge.

Bpryr_125 · June 2020

One time in band camp I remember ...EQ

Before Wow intruded insta gratification..

You need to understand the carrot on a stick has shifted compared to the ol days..

Alienoutlaw · June 2020

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

@Alienoutlaw and @Taleof2Cities the purpose of a world event is to be enjoyable and yet at the same time fair. All other events are relatively well balanced. Geysers tone down difficulty based on the players attempting them. Dolmens are easily done solo at a certain level. Dragons are difficult but follow the design rules where attacks can be telegraphed or avoided.

The current Harrowstorms are a mess. Yes they can be done with large groups just like all other world events but the difficulty here is significantly ramped up and it’s more a result of poor design than providing a proper challenge. Everything is literally red at all times. You have far too many strong AOE attacks capable of one-shots with no warning. I’ve seen entire large groups of 15+ players where 13 of them will go down instantly again and again due to bad damage mechanics. And these are high level players who know how to play the game.

There is a difference between cheap deaths and difficult content deaths. Games such as Super Ghouls and Ghosts have difficult content deaths but are totally avoidable if mechanics and game rules are followed. The deaths in Harrowstorms are cheap. Bad telegraphs, damage everywhere that’s impossible to either avoid or for so powerful that characters built to heal/tank trial HMs instantly wipe to are cheap deaths. There’s no reward for learning as you’re killed because the game does so with no intention of being reasonable.

they really are not that bad, maybe you just had some bad experiences, and you can not seriously compare ESO to super gouls & ghosts can you?

Hotdog_23 · June 2020

They are fine for now due to the amount of people doing them, but I don’t think they will age well. As time goes on and people move on to doing other things and less and less people are doing the storms. The harder the storms will be.

I was doing the daily dragons in southern Elsweyr the other morning on PS4 NA a week after Greymoor dropped and there was only me and another guy doing them. When we would get the dragon down to under 50% one other person would show up. Luckily for me the other guy was a tank and I back barred a resto staff. Apparently on of the people that helped us needed to complete his requirement of 3 kills and was asking in zone chat for help. I can see Harrowstorms being the same was next year.

Be safe and have fun

Infectious1X · June 2020

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Yes they can be done with large groups just like all other world events but the difficulty here is significantly ramped up and it’s more a result of poor design than providing a proper challenge.

Gotta love when players call out something as “poorly designed” because it happens to be something they don’t personally find enjoyable. Hard to take their opinions seriously when this is their go-to 90% of the time.

Liccao · June 2020

I can understand why you want it nerfed. But so nope.

Alle Chapters after Vvardenfel have something there is ment to be Dolmen ich. They are group content.

In Summerset we got Geysers as the group content beside World Bosses.
In Elsweyr we got Dragons
and now we have Harrowstroms

The game is really in need of group content outside instances and PvP. And beside that you can always ask in chat if you need any form of help. I can say if im online and im in Westen Skyrim I will gladly came to aid.

The Dolmens in Classic gameplay are easy coz how the game had changed. I was not playing before the CP system that we have now. But im sure that they was once Hard too. If you ask me they should have buffs. Me and my friend when we hunt them down. we do it easily they are not that hard.

I will say if the zone end up like Northen Elsweyr we can talk about a nerf. But that only cuz there is no one at the objective anymore

trackdemon5512 · June 2020

@Infectious1X I can call it poorly designed because it is in its current form. A tank shouldn’t get insta-wiped while blocking from something that isn’t properly telegraphed. The Blood Fountain attack is a prime example for DPS as it’s practically invisible on PS4. Running vKA it’s much easier to avoid the attack on the final boss than the adds leading up due to the fact that the terrain obscures it all.

Is all of this doable? Yes? Is it needlessly difficult? Again yes and that’s a problem with the current design. It’s currently easier to avoid the ghost walls on FLHM than it is to avoid the multitude of attacks and incorrect/poorly visible telegraphs of a Harrowstorm on console.

And btw I do find Harrowstorms enjoyable but there are still issues with them. Just like there were issues with the dragons and geysers when they were released. Criticism isn’t whining about perceived unfairness if observations are astute. Calling it out as just whining means accepting everything is just as it is. And if that’s the case you must love when Cyrodiil crashes all the time on you.

Cireous · June 2020

I don't think they are trying to replicate the Geyser experience here, more like the Dragon one. Because Dragons were a hit.

#keepharrowstormsthewaytheyarebutgetridofedictsinsatchalsandgiveusmorefurnishingrecipeskthnx

BlueRaven · June 2020

They are overly difficult, which would be ok if there was an incentive to do them. But with poor rewards, and a lack of map indicators the group sizes are already fading out.

I think the main issue with difficulty is that once a group starts “losing” a storm it just keeps getting harder. A struggling group that is trying to deal with a spawned mini boss will just get more mini bosses to spawn, while a large group may not get any.
This should be reversed, large groups should get the mini bosses and the smaller “less dps” groups should get none.

Anyway, a few more days and I get my 30 day daily achievement for them, then I will stop. Outside of the daily being a source for motifs, there is no point in doing them.

Banana · June 2020

They need to appear more often is my only gripe

Maugre · July 2020

They're fun, but way too hard for what they give out. Very soon the only groups ever attempting them are small ones, since there's no way a whole zone's worth of people are all gonna go rushing over to get a clump of blood and some ashes.

They're designed for the new-content rush and that's gonna kill them in the long run.

Grianasteri · July 2020

You want overland content made easier? If its more difficult in new areas, FANTASTIC!

So, I disagree and the news that its harder actually makes it more likely I will purchase the DLC.

trackdemon5512 · July 2020

@Grianasteri in this case yes. As @Maugre pointed out the rewards are often not great and with MidYear going on we can already see that the huge population that was smashing them down before with numbers has dissipated.

Last night I watched for 15 minutes as a Sizable group of lower levels attempted to take down a storm and were repeatedly wiped out by the growing number of boss level monsters, large AOE dmg, and regenerating witches pikes.

If you want harder overland content it’s best by adding intelligent mechanics to combating enemies than increasing their health/dmg to cater to the min/maxers. The best example of this in new content is probably the cat world boss in Southern Elsweyr which punishes/destroys those who just want to throw everything at it and is easy for those who take it slow, follow the mechanic strategy, and clear/control the adds.

Taleof2Cities · July 2020

The groups aren't always a makeup of lower level noobs, @trackdemon5512.

I think you'll have to be patient with the group sizes until the end of Midyear Mayhem (7/7).

Maugre · July 2020

It's also worth noting that the new chapter zones are basically the new STARTER zones, so new characters and players are starting off in a zone where the world events are way past their skill and character levels. Who wants to start up a new game, see these awesome looking blood tornadoes, and be told "yeah, come back to your noobie area in like 3 months when you're maxed out and stand half a chance, or group up with people who'll just carry you while you die over and over from aoes grazing you"

Grianasteri · July 2020

@trackdemon5512

Its not really the rewards I am concerned with.

I recall when Wyverns (not dragons) first arrived & we had to put up with cry babies (I'm not saying you are a cry baby) complaining that they couldn't solo them, or that even small groups of friends etc could not manage to beat them... I think now as I thought then... GOOD! Working as intended then!

The fact there are some world bosses and things like "dragons" which are incredibly difficult to beat, is a very welcome aspect of overland ESO & I feel there should be more such content.

That said, stupid mechanics should not = difficult content. That is not the way to make content difficult.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · July 2020

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

They are fine for now due to the amount of people doing them, but I don’t think they will age well. As time goes on and people move on to doing other things and less and less people are doing the storms. The harder the storms will be.

I was doing the daily dragons in southern Elsweyr the other morning on PS4 NA a week after Greymoor dropped and there was only me and another guy doing them. When we would get the dragon down to under 50% one other person would show up. Luckily for me the other guy was a tank and I back barred a resto staff. Apparently on of the people that helped us needed to complete his requirement of 3 kills and was asking in zone chat for help. I can see Harrowstorms being the same was next year.

Be safe and have fun

I agre, the Elsweyr dragons will probably get a nerf soon, due to declining popularity. I can see the same kind of nerf happening to Harrowstorms when the next world event comes out with a new chapter.

eKsDee · July 2020

Maugre wrote: »

It's also worth noting that the new chapter zones are basically the new STARTER zones, so new characters and players are starting off in a zone where the world events are way past their skill and character levels. Who wants to start up a new game, see these awesome looking blood tornadoes, and be told "yeah, come back to your noobie area in like 3 months when you're maxed out and stand half a chance, or group up with people who'll just carry you while you die over and over from aoes grazing you"

The solution to that should be reworking the introductory quest to start off in the new chapter zone, get you started with the chapter's main quest line, then take you back to the base game zones, while still leaving the door open for you to come back if you want to.

By nerfing one of the few genuinely hard pieces of overland content in the game, you're just saying "screw you" to vets even harder than the game already is. Overland is already chock full of incredibly easy content, enough to put a lot of vets to sleep, we don't need more added onto the list.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2020

I like harrowstorms, but I get the point.

There is a difference between genuine challenge and artificial, manufactured challenge.

So much of ESO's design is just throwing more and more *** at the players [snip]. Just because something kills you doesn't mean it was "challenging".

I like the concept of harrowstorms, and I like that they are more difficult. But that doesn't mean I like *how* they have been made more difficult.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

TheImperfect · July 2020

Just can't please everyone. Personally I think they are fine. Some people complain the game is too easy and other's that parts are too hard. It must be difficult to get that balance right. I admit it takes a lot of people to get one done but it's meant to be like that I think.

xaraan · July 2020

1. My biggest issue with them so far is the one attack, it may be the Carrion swarm and that's only because it's killed with no indication - no red, no visual - only reason you know you died to it is death recap. Maybe this is because of crappy servers, but unfortunately they have to design the game around their own servers - it's their fault. But it seems the type of attack you have to avoid completely as it's along the lazy lines of the usual zos antics - one-shots. But you can't avoid it well when you can't see it half the time.

2. If the game doesn't have population all the time to support world events, then again, they need to design the game with what they have. I've done HS's with just 3-4 of us because no one shows up. And you better hope that the others helping have some idea of what they need to do. In the end, it's not my fault if they don't have enough players doing events, it's theirs - but it does seem to be my problem. I don't play games for problems like that. And if there is a high pop time, they HS's fall so fast anyway they are irrelevant. They've failed at every opportunity to make the "world events" that are challenging to the amount of players involved. Most they've achieved is making them almost impossible to solo or duo and challenging for a handful and a cakewalk for anything more than that.

Integral1900 · July 2020

The drop off in players has already started. Yes, sometimes you can get a big group that can flatten these things but between the weird timing nonsense, scant rewards and the sheer inconvenience of getting to these damn things they’re becoming pretty thin on the ground. You have un-telegraphed one shots on one hand and the sheer scarcity of people willing to play these things on the other.

Several times you will see one or two players at the edge of a storm waiting for the group to get bigger than three or four before doing anything and half the time they disappear or maybe they give the boss a little poke right at the end. It used to make me mad but now to be honest I don’t think I can blame them, I certainly don’t hurry towards them anymore because either a huge Zerg nukes it or you arrive to find two players trying to eat a mountain 😆😳

Give it a few more weeks, maybe a month or two and these things will be dead content just like two of the three northern moggy land dragons or pretty much all of craglorn outside of the trials. There won’t be enough players willing to run them to make them worth the pitiful reward you get at the end. They are simply not worth the effort.

Even with the changes I’m still getting maybe three or four hundred gold in junk, a random item with typically an utterly useless trait and the odd mushroom. Considering the effort you go to it just isn’t worth it. I can get nearly ten times that reward just strolling around the zone for a half hour cracking open treasure chests and bashing random baddies. Let’s face it the drop rate for any furnishings is low to nonexistent because they want you to buy the blasted things in the crown store. It’s a simple as that

deLioncourt · July 2020

First day of Greymoor, my first Harrowstorm..I solo'd it.

Harrowstorm difficulty seems to scale off of how many people are present.

You get a bunch of lowbies who can't do any damage at all and yeah..the harrowstorm is going to rek you.

precambria · July 2020

please no nerfs there is basically nothing in this game that is hard enough outside of HM vet dlc content

Scottfree2 · July 2020

Eh, you can thank all the "this game is too easy" threads for this i'd guess

.. gotta admit that damn shrike is at the top of enemies i like to see go down, but i find that sometimes i die a lot, sometimes i don't so it isn't too bad overall ..

Long term prognosis, ya finding people to do them could become a problem, as it is in both Elsweyrs

Ryuvain · July 2020

The shrike feels bugged. You touch any aoe for a tic and it's 23k damage. He's the main reason I die during a storm.