Trap Beast Bleed DoT

Celestro · June 2020

First time making a topic but the thought just hit me. As the title kind of alludes to, why not make the DoT portion of Trap Beast skill deal bleed damage? Not only does it makes all the sense in the world but also adds another bleed option to the somewhat limited selection of skills that do so for those niche blood based builds.

Also partially considered the idea given the Mages Guild has two offensive skills that deal two different types of damage, being Magic and Flame.

idk · June 2020

A big reason is likely balance. The balance between the different types of physical damage may be one reason. However, that bleeds bypass armor is likely a bigger reason why Zos would avoid making such a change for PvP balance.

Edit: I do not run bleeds and apparently wrong. However, it is still possible Zos intends to have a balance between different types of damage as they do have damage specific sets.

Celestro · June 2020

Oh wait. I was under the impression bleeds adhere to armor resistance now after xyz patch? It has been a while so I might be off. Or could've overlooked it in a recent patch. I'll have to check that.

Even with respect to PvP, that seems iffy though.

Danksta · June 2020

Celestro wrote: »

Oh wait. I was under the impression bleeds adhere to armor resistance now after xyz patch? It has been a while so I might be off. Or could've overlooked it in a recent patch. I'll have to check that.

Even with respect to PvP, that seems iffy though.

I'm pretty sure that you are correct and bleeds no longer ignore resistances, and that idk just really doesn't know as his signature suggests.

kringled_1 · June 2020

I agree, I didn't think that bleeds bypassed resistance since one of the 2019 patches. I think the only difference now between a bleed and another physical damage dot is that bleeds may interact with specific sets like blood drinker and dro zakars claws.

butterrum222 · June 2020

I like the idea

butterrum222 · June 2020

I like the idea

MindOfTheSwarm · June 2020

100% agree. Trap Beast should deal bleed damage. And while we are on the subject Razor Caltrops should apply a bleed too... they are after all 'Razored'. Something like this:

Hurl a ball of caltrops that scatter over the target area, dealing X Physical Damage every 1 second to enemies inside, and reducing their Movement Speed by 50%. Enemies who take damage from the caltrops are afflicted with a bleed that does a further X Physical Damage over 5 seconds. This bleed refreshes on afflicted targets while they remain within the area.

Basically ditch the Fracture and make it suit the name.

Celestro · June 2020

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

100% agree. Trap Beast should deal bleed damage. And while we are on the subject Razor Caltrops should apply a bleed too... they are after all 'Razored'. Something like this:

Hurl a ball of caltrops that scatter over the target area, dealing X Physical Damage every 1 second to enemies inside, and reducing their Movement Speed by 50%. Enemies who take damage from the caltrops are afflicted with a bleed that does a further X Physical Damage over 5 seconds. This bleed refreshes on afflicted targets while they remain within the area.

Basically ditch the Fracture and make it suit the name.

I didn't even consider Caltrops. That is a pretty solid idea too. Even keeping the Major Fracture and lowering the overall damage (considering they nerfed it so low anyway) seems pretty legit as well.

MashmalloMan · June 2020

Bleeds are just physically applied dots at this point, with the distinction that certain sets have been made to interact with bleeds. Without these sets, it's just flavour text.

The only thing ZOS is consistent about is being inconsistent.

Physical DoT's that ARE Correctly Labeled as "Bleed" Damage:

Warden's Cutting Dive
Warden's Growing Swarm
2H Carve
VMA 2H Merciless Charge (Weapon)
DW Twin Slash Morphs
DW Lacerate Ult Morphs
Werewolf Berserker Ult
Werewolf Pounce (Carnage)
Pillar of Nirn Set
Twin Sisters Set
Savage Werewolf Set

Physical DoT's that SHOULD be Labeled as "Bleed" Damage:

Trap Beast Morphs
Dawnbreaker Morphs
Soul Trap Morphs
Edit: Relequen

Physical Damage/DoT's that AREN'T "Bleed" Damage and should stay that way (unless changed in function):

Bow Volley Morphs
Caltrops Morphs
DW Blade Cloak Morphs
DW Flurry Morphs
Templar Biting Jabs
Templar Empowerering Sweep Ult
Sorc Hurricane
Kragh Set
Domihaus Set

Physical DoT's that ARE "Bleed" Damage that SHOULDN'T be:

Aegis Caller Set (I love that it's a bleed, but it doesn't make any sense).

These are the only ones that come to mind. Feel free to add to the list and I'll edit it.

Gilvoth · June 2020

Bleed damage on a trap like the one in eso "should" be bleed damage, it only makes sense.
i don't know why it wasn't this way from the start.
it's a Good idea and it seems more realistic than what it is currently.

quote:
Set a sharpened blade trap at your location, which takes 1.5 seconds to arm and lasts for 1 minute.
When triggered, the trap deals 410 Physical Damage, an additional 1640 Physical Damage over 10 seconds, and grants you Minor Force, increasing your Critical Damage by 10% for the duration.
Enemies who activate the trap are immobilized for 2 seconds.
end quote:

Ladislao · June 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Physical DoT's that SHOULD be Labeled as "Bleed" Damage:
Trap Beast Morphs

Dawnbreaker Morphs

Soul Trap Morphs

Physical DoT's that ARE "Bleed" Damage that SHOULDN'T be:
Aegis Caller Set (I love that it's a bleed, but it doesn't make any sense).

But why? Do you mean single target physical DoTs should be bleeds and AoE physical DoTs shouldn't?
And although this makes sense to some extent, could you please put some reasoning about these proposals in terms of balance.

Algorax · June 2020

idk wrote: »

A big reason is likely balance. The balance between the different types of physical damage may be one reason. However, that bleeds bypass armor is likely a bigger reason why Zos would avoid making such a change for PvP balance.

Edit: I do not run bleeds and apparently wrong. However, it is still possible Zos intends to have a balance between different types of damage as they do have damage specific sets.

That's a fake reason: you may simply scale down the overall bleed damage to compensate

MashmalloMan · September 2020

Ladislao wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Physical DoT's that SHOULD be Labeled as "Bleed" Damage:
Trap Beast Morphs

Dawnbreaker Morphs

Soul Trap Morphs

Physical DoT's that ARE "Bleed" Damage that SHOULDN'T be:
Aegis Caller Set (I love that it's a bleed, but it doesn't make any sense).

But why? Do you mean single target physical DoTs should be bleeds and AoE physical DoTs shouldn't?
And although this makes sense to some extent, could you please put some reasoning about these proposals in terms of balance.

@Ladislao Not exactly. Bleeds should simply be any physical damage applied dot, it has a set duration that is applied to targets, it can can be cleansed, it's a debuff. It doesn't matter if it's applied with single target attack or an aoe attack, if it's applied on a target and does physical damage over time, why is it not called a bleed?

Ground based(Volley/Caltrops) and self applied aoe dots(Hurricane/Blade Cloak) that the enemy can walk out of to avoid damage, should not be considered as bleed damage. The only rulebreaker I could find in the game to this is the Aegis Caller set.

It's not really about balance, the only difference bleeds make on the game balance is how they interact with bleed buffing sets which is up to ZOS to monitor and re-evaluate if that actually makes a noticable difference.

The point of the change would be to finalize what a bleed actually means in this game, since the change to make them behave like any other dot instead of ignoring physical resistance, players have been asking why it's in the game in the first place. If it's because of sets, then atleast follow your own established ruleset and make the remaining outliers (Trap Beast, Dawnbreaker and Soul Trap) proper bleeds.

In the same vein, I'd be happy to see ZOS continue this trend with the other elements starting with the magicka damage type that does not apply a status effects either. Maybe a part of the benefit of these lackluster damage types could be the potential synergy they get with specific sets. For example, magicka applied dots could be called Soul Scurge damage or something, idk, but it could introduce a lot of unique sets to the game.

Ladislao · September 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Physical DoT's that SHOULD be Labeled as "Bleed" Damage:
Trap Beast Morphs

Dawnbreaker Morphs

Soul Trap Morphs

Physical DoT's that ARE "Bleed" Damage that SHOULDN'T be:
Aegis Caller Set (I love that it's a bleed, but it doesn't make any sense).

But why? Do you mean single target physical DoTs should be bleeds and AoE physical DoTs shouldn't?
And although this makes sense to some extent, could you please put some reasoning about these proposals in terms of balance.

@Ladislao Not exactly. Bleeds should simply be any physical damage applied dot, it has a set duration that is applied to targets, it can can be cleansed, it's a debuff. It doesn't matter if it's applied with single target attack or an aoe attack, if it's applied on a target and does physical damage over time, why is it not called a bleed?

Ground based(Volley/Caltrops) and self applied aoe dots(Hurricane/Blade Cloak) that the enemy can walk out of to avoid damage, should not be considered as bleed damage. The only rulebreaker I could find in the game to this is the Aegis Caller set.

It's not really about balance, the only difference bleeds make on the game balance is how they interact with bleed buffing sets which is up to ZOS to monitor and re-evaluate if that actually makes a noticable difference.

The point of the change would be to finalize what a bleed actually means in this game, since the change to make them behave like any other dot instead of ignoring physical resistance, players have been asking why it's in the game in the first place. If it's because of sets, then atleast follow your own established ruleset and make the remaining outliers (Trap Beast, Dawnbreaker and Soul Trap) proper bleeds.

In the same vein, I'd be happy to see ZOS continue this trend with the other elements starting with the magicka damage type that does not apply a status effects either. Maybe a part of the benefit of these lackluster damage types could be the potential synergy they get with specific sets. For example, magicka applied dots could be called Soul Scurge damage or something, idk, but it could introduce a lot of unique sets to the game.

Thank you for the answer.

So the list is more about consistency and "plausibility" rather than balance associated with sets like Dro'Zakar's Claws or Dragon's Appetite. I respect this point apart from standardization, although I think balance should have a higher priority.

YandereGirlfriend · September 2020

I like basically all of the above categorizations but something like Relequen (which is animated as a Cyclone) doing Bleed damage seems dubious from a basic art direction or world-building perspective.

Ditto for Dawnbreaker and Soul Trap, with one being a holy smite (really it should do Fire Damage to match the Dawnbreaker effect from Skyrim) and the other a spell from the Conjuration skill line that, from a lore perspective, has no real business even doing Physical Damage in the first place (but that's more of a ZOS complaint).

Off-topic, but a lore-friendlier version of Dawnbreaker would be a hit of Direct Flame Damage, an automatically applied Burning proc, and then basically the Vicious Death corpse explode mechanic on anything that died from the attack.

Celestro · September 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I like basically all of the above categorizations but something like Relequen (which is animated as a Cyclone) doing Bleed damage seems dubious from a basic art direction or world-building perspective.

Ditto for Dawnbreaker and Soul Trap, with one being a holy smite (really it should do Fire Damage to match the Dawnbreaker effect from Skyrim) and the other a spell from the Conjuration skill line that, from a lore perspective, has no real business even doing Physical Damage in the first place (but that's more of a ZOS complaint).

Off-topic, but a lore-friendlier version of Dawnbreaker would be a hit of Direct Flame Damage, an automatically applied Burning proc, and then basically the Vicious Death corpse explode mechanic on anything that died from the attack.

I mean, I could see Relequen doing so from the perspective that wind has cut through things at least, so wouldn't be too outlandish.

I largely agree with Dawnbreaker and Soul Trap though. Even as much as I love allowing Soul Trap to be useful for stam specs, it doesn't make sense even just doing regular Physical Damage. I understand it from the Bleed Damage argument but it could be an exception like it already is largely from a lore perspective.

On the off topic bit, I almost feel like the Direct Damage could take a page from Force Shock and deal both Physical and Flame Damage really but I'd lean towards the former ultimately as the automatic burning status is cool enough to suffice for that, as is the explode aspect (which sounds awesome having it in a skill).