pleading with ZOS to do SOMETHING. with pvp

Wing · June 2020

had such an apathetic moment in pvp (wont go into details, though i will say it wasn't like a person or whisper or anything directly negative)

but as someone who has actually played the original pvp this game was based off of, the changes made were for the worse.

cyrodiil is too large as a map at this point, and the overall flow of the pvp is zergy, not just in that ball groups zerg down locations, but that its all fast, and at the same time boring and plays out super obviously

A
1-form a ball group and zerg to a location at max speed.
2-flag at max speed to avoid a fight.
3-if fight does ensue, zerg them down.

if you succeed, see A, you you fail, see below.

B
1-get a minion to deploy a camp and re zerg the same location again.

if you succeed, see A, if you fail, see A or B if both options fail, see below.

C
1-repeat option B until weariness, wounds, and exhaustion sets in and you take your location by attrition.

if you succeed, see A, if you fail, see below.

D
1-form a ball group and zerg to a location at max speed.
2-ensure a time or location that will be undefended or incapable of defense.
3-flag at max speed to avoid a fight.
4-if fight does ensue get better at option D-2

if you succeed, see A, if you fail, see A, B, C, D

as much as people claim to look for fights, nobody wants to fight. i dont know what the solution on the macro or micro level is, and at this point even if i did i would not post anything because people would just tear anything apart anyway, everyone has different ideas.
add to that the jaded and overall angry factions, sure casual pugs might not know whats going on, but many long time players who seem far to invested or take pvp far too seriously just spew hate and vitriol at other factions because "insert faction color here" man bad!

i would love it if ZOS would just do SOMETHING radical or crazy at this point, i doubt it could get much worse.

VaranisArano · June 2020

Step 1: fix performance so the game can actually handle large, protracted fights at defended keeps

Step 2: raise D-ticks again so players rush to defend keeps when they are attacked

The increased D-ticks during Summerset did wonders for preventing PvDoor! Problem is, the server couldn't handle the amazing fights and its only gotten worse.

Vara · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Step 1: fix performance so the game can actually handle large, protracted fights at defended keeps

Step 2: raise D-ticks again so players rush to defend keeps when they are attacked

The increased D-ticks during Summerset did wonders for preventing PvDoor! Problem is, the server couldn't handle the amazing fights and its only gotten worse.

I agree with both points here. Very good solutions!

Major_Lag · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Step 1: fix performance so the game can actually handle large, protracted fights at defended keeps

Step 2: raise D-ticks again so players rush to defend keeps when they are attacked

The increased D-ticks during Summerset did wonders for preventing PvDoor! Problem is, the server couldn't handle the amazing fights and its only gotten worse.

Step 3: decrease the base value of O-ticks (and adjust the per-player-killed scaling to compensate?) to remove the incentive to PvDoor empty keeps for a guaranteed juicy 6k AP.

VaranisArano · June 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Step 1: fix performance so the game can actually handle large, protracted fights at defended keeps

Step 2: raise D-ticks again so players rush to defend keeps when they are attacked

The increased D-ticks during Summerset did wonders for preventing PvDoor! Problem is, the server couldn't handle the amazing fights and its only gotten worse.

Step 3: decrease the base value of O-ticks (and adjust the per-player-killed scaling to compensate?) to remove the incentive to PvDoor empty keeps for a guaranteed juicy 6k AP.

Eh, I don't really have a problem with some PvDoor. Not only does it reward factions who can move fast, read the map, or use scouts, you do want to keep incentives for players to get off the emp ring and spread out, after all. And if you boost D-ticks, you don't want to diminish O-ticks to the point that everyone is just going to wait for someone else to attack them.

During Summerset, it was a lot harder to successfully PvDoor back keeps when players were chasing the massive D-tick as opposed to the attitude that really allows for PvDoor: "We'll make more AP from recapturing it." Just boosting D-ticks was sufficient without diminishing the O-tick.

raistin87 · June 2020

Either ZOS is unwilling to commit the cash or unable to write the code, in either case smooth mass fights are not happening.

The real solution is to introduce changes to disincentivize aggregation in large number.

Firstmep · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Step 1: fix performance so the game can actually handle large, protracted fights at defended keeps

Step 2: raise D-ticks again so players rush to defend keeps when they are attacked

The increased D-ticks during Summerset did wonders for preventing PvDoor! Problem is, the server couldn't handle the amazing fights and its only gotten worse.

Step 3: decrease the base value of O-ticks (and adjust the per-player-killed scaling to compensate?) to remove the incentive to PvDoor empty keeps for a guaranteed juicy 6k AP.

Eh, I don't really have a problem with some PvDoor. Not only does it reward factions who can move fast, read the map, or use scouts, you do want to keep incentives for players to get off the emp ring and spread out, after all. And if you boost D-ticks, you don't want to diminish O-ticks to the point that everyone is just going to wait for someone else to attack them.

During Summerset, it was a lot harder to successfully PvDoor back keeps when players were chasing the massive D-tick as opposed to the attitude that really allows for PvDoor: "We'll make more AP from recapturing it." Just boosting D-ticks was sufficient without diminishing the O-tick.

Thats all fine, but the current system encourages farming empty keeps too much.

Its a pvp zone, players shouldnt be heavily rewarded for killing npc. Not to mention it makes off hours capping far too appealing to a lot of people, who are just there to farm ap.

VaranisArano · June 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Step 1: fix performance so the game can actually handle large, protracted fights at defended keeps

Step 2: raise D-ticks again so players rush to defend keeps when they are attacked

The increased D-ticks during Summerset did wonders for preventing PvDoor! Problem is, the server couldn't handle the amazing fights and its only gotten worse.

Step 3: decrease the base value of O-ticks (and adjust the per-player-killed scaling to compensate?) to remove the incentive to PvDoor empty keeps for a guaranteed juicy 6k AP.

Eh, I don't really have a problem with some PvDoor. Not only does it reward factions who can move fast, read the map, or use scouts, you do want to keep incentives for players to get off the emp ring and spread out, after all. And if you boost D-ticks, you don't want to diminish O-ticks to the point that everyone is just going to wait for someone else to attack them.

During Summerset, it was a lot harder to successfully PvDoor back keeps when players were chasing the massive D-tick as opposed to the attitude that really allows for PvDoor: "We'll make more AP from recapturing it." Just boosting D-ticks was sufficient without diminishing the O-tick.

Thats all fine, but the current system encourages farming empty keeps too much.

Its a pvp zone, players shouldnt be heavily rewarded for killing npc. Not to mention it makes off hours capping far too appealing to a lot of people, who are just there to farm ap.

You see my "Step 1: fix performance" up there?

You gotta fix performance first.
O-ticks encourage players to get off the emp ring and spread out, which is something ZOS keeps desperately trying to get players to do because they've said over and over that it improves performance. And the best thing ZOS did to prevent PvDoor, boosting D-ticks during Summerset, floundered because performance couldn't handle the large player v player battles that are ideal.

As for off-hours, I play during PC/NA primetime. Those off-hours are called "other timezones" and I can't begrudge other people playing and making AP during their primetime.

Major_Lag · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Eh, I don't really have a problem with some PvDoor. Not only does it reward factions who can move fast, read the map, or use scouts, you do want to keep incentives for players to get off the emp ring and spread out, after all. And if you boost D-ticks, you don't want to diminish O-ticks to the point that everyone is just going to wait for someone else to attack them.

That's why I said to decrease the base O-tick value, but increase the additional scaling from each player killed in the process of securing the objective.

Such a change would have little effect when capturing a contested (defended) objective - in fact, it would even result in increased rewards for successfully capturing a very heavily defended objective when the fighting goes on for a long time.
Whereas when PvDooring an undefended objective, the AP gain would be very small, as it should be.

Ranger209 · June 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Eh, I don't really have a problem with some PvDoor. Not only does it reward factions who can move fast, read the map, or use scouts, you do want to keep incentives for players to get off the emp ring and spread out, after all. And if you boost D-ticks, you don't want to diminish O-ticks to the point that everyone is just going to wait for someone else to attack them.

That's why I said to decrease the base O-tick value, but increase the additional scaling from each player killed in the process of securing the objective.

Such a change would have little effect when capturing a contested (defended) objective - in fact, it would even result in increased rewards for successfully capturing a very heavily defended objective when the fighting goes on for a long time.
Whereas when PvDooring an undefended objective, the AP gain would be very small, as it should be.

Someone gets it.

NuarBlack · June 2020

raistin87 wrote: »

Either ZOS is unwilling to commit the cash or unable to write the code, in either case smooth mass fights are not happening.

The real solution is to introduce changes to disincentivize aggregation in large number.

Make anti personnel siege good again. I remember amazing tactical retreats using fire ballista where you held just long enough to set up another one in a staggered formation holding or slowing giant zergs with only 10 players and not because you were exploiting busted 1vX setups but because of tactics and coordination and skilled play.

I know the complaint is that it then feels like elder siege online but really that should be the difference between the modes. Cyro for good group tactics and BGs for good skill and build use. Maybe another mode could be added as well. But diminishing returns on skills for being in large groups are negligible to the inherent strength of large numbers. You need inherent weaknesses of large groups to counter it. And since I don't see them imposing a way of mimicking the concept that large forces are clunky and move slower the next best is making them juicy targets for siege. Increase siege cost maybe to balance but a good fire ballista ambush should work and be rewarded. Right now the damage is so negligible to a zerg with healers it defeats the whole concept.

red_emu · June 2020

Increase defence ticks to 10 times the offensive tick. That way even zergs will focus on defence sometimes instead of pushing one alliance to the gates, while the other alliance is already knocking at their tri keeps.

redgreensunset · June 2020

As someone who is a super casual pvper could someone kindly enlighten me as to what O-tick and D-ticks are? Offense and defense Is my guess but I would like a confirmation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · June 2020

redgreensunset wrote: »

As someone who is a super casual pvper could someone kindly enlighten me as to what O-tick and D-ticks are? Offense and defense Is my guess but I would like a confirmation.

Capture objectives have a mechanic where when there is combat and players die in their vicinity those deaths count towards an AP award which is given out either when there have been no more deaths for over 1min or the objective is captured.

Fur_like_snow · June 2020

We just need a new map with lower population caps and ideally no siege. Cyrodiil is unplayable in the main campaign and ZoS seems to be incapable of doing anything about it. Let’s ask for the next best thing which would be a new map that doesn’t let a faction stack 60 players in a single keep. Keep lowering the population cap till the game can function. Nothing else matters in terms of balance until the game actually works.

technohic · June 2020

I pretty much give up on actual performance fixes. Think that should be first, but seeing as it wont, I am switching to some unpopular opinion:

1. Reduce pop lock by at least 1 bar

3. IC is no longer really in Cyrodiil. Replace it by a plane meld hole the same size as a Standard dolmen to appear that IC was sucked into Cold Harbor. Collapse the rest of the map smaller around it to make for less distance between objectives to match lower pop

4. Get rid off offensive and defensive ticks. Boost AP for killing player. Add a boost to the amount per player killed based on owning different objectives. Repeat killing of players within 15 minutes provides 0 AP

5. Make campaign scoring based on AP earned total.

6. Reduce max group size to 8. Restrict heals, purges, buffs to group.

VaranisArano · June 2020

redgreensunset wrote: »

As someone who is a super casual pvper could someone kindly enlighten me as to what O-tick and D-ticks are? Offense and defense Is my guess but I would like a confirmation.

That's correct.
The O-tick is awarded shortly after flipping the flag(s) at the objective. Its a flat amount + AP from any players killed.
The D-tick is awarded shortly after fighting at the objective ceases, and its from AP from players killed.

Successful defenses can make for really good AP, but there's always the risk of losing.

The trick is that if your group can move quickly enough and the enemy doesn't show up to defend, you can make very good AP by focusing purely on capturing undefended objectives, aka PvDoor. If successfully, you get the flat AP (about 6k for a keep) from the O-tick with none of the risk of a drawn out defense.

Now, during the Summerset patch, I remember getting anywhere from 30k to 300k Defense ticks depending on how intensive the defense was. Everyone wanted to defend. Heck, we even had volunteers to sit in the back keeps and warn zone chat the second enemies showed up to attack. It got very hard to successfully PvDoor keeps when everyone on the enemy faction was rushing to get there for the defensive AP.

(Now, there were a few problems. Besides the performance issue, it was possible to exploit the system and AP farm at back keeps by having your buddy on the enemy faction do some fighting on the ground to trigger a huge D-tick for you.)

pieratsos · June 2020

Scale down the map so the entire campaign doesn't just stack in 1-2 keeps and get rid of camps