So after a week with the new Vampire, I can offer the following feedback.

JMadFour · June 2020

I'm mainly playing with a Sorcerer Vampire. I'm not a Vet Trial Raider or anything like that, just a plain ol' casual.

Overall, I LIKE the new Vampire. I like the concept of committing to building a Vampire as if it is its own class. I like MOST of the aesthetics of it. I like the feeding animations. I like being able to move at regular speed in stealth. I like the concept of having to feed to grow more powerful. I like the concept of having to BE a Vampire.

However, it isn't perfect. It does not need to be thrown out wholesale and completely redone as many here would scream to high heaven. But changes need to be made.

1)Arterial Burst needs to be ranged. At least 15m. Take away the "auto crit under 50% health" and replace it with Range if need be. no one would miss it. If you are insistent on it being melee, then it needs a better effect, like Cone AOE damage.
2)Arterial Burst needs a better, more noticeable spell and sound effect. I'm a fan of the "Claw" motif that the Base skill and Blood for Blood have. Just make it bigger and more solid for Arterial Burst. As it stands, Arterial Burst is absolutely unnoticeable, especially when LA Weaving.
3)Blood for Blood needs to trigger Crystal Frags.
4)Replace Blood Frenzy with a gap closer. Blood Frenzy is not fun, it does NOT "check all the boxes" for anything. Just get rid of it, and give Vampires a much-needed Gap Closer.
5)Most will disagree, but I think that if non-Vamp Skills get more expensive with Vamp stages, then our Vamp Skills should gain either more damage or extra effects with Vamp Stages, in addition to costing less. Things like Blood Mist and Mesmerize having an increased radius. Drain gaining the ability to drain Magicka.
6) If you are absolutely insistent that Vampires HAVE to played at Melee range no matter what, then Vampires need a passive that will allow us to Regenerate Magicka instead of Stamina with Fully Charged Heavy Attacks with melee weapons. OR to Drain Magicka from enemies with Melee LA/HAs. Not a single Vampire you have shown in any Greymoor Advertising has used a staff as far as I remember.
7)Blood Mist does not do enough damage per tick, imo.

Cameron991 · June 2020

I agree with basically everything you have said. Especially about the gap closer, and the blood frenzy is just so risky to use the health loss is way too much and way to fast to do anything with it

Vevvev · June 2020

You have some very good suggestions but I'd like to add something.

JMadFour wrote: »

6) If you are absolutely insistent that Vampires HAVE to played at Melee range no matter what, then Vampires need a passive that will allow us to Regenerate Magicka instead of Stamina with Fully Charged Heavy Attacks with melee weapons. OR to Drain Magicka from enemies with Melee LA/HAs. Not a single Vampire you have shown in any Greymoor Advertising has used a staff as far as I remember.

As a magDK player I know something else that can be added to make the melee play style on vampires a bit better. As it is right now with the lack of a gap closer the vampires suffer from not being "Sticky" enough. Nightblade's spammable when slotted makes them move fast while sneaking or invisible, Templars reduce the movement speed of the enemy with the last hit of Puncturing Strikes, and Dragonknights snare all targets hit with their Ardent Flame abilities by 30%.

Notice the theme with magicka melee play styles? They all have a way of keeping their targets still or narrowing the gap, and vampire does NOT have this. There is nothing in Eviscerate and its morphs that helps keep their targets in melee range which can be a problem in fast paced engagements. A morph of Mesmerize does have a snare but it is locked behind CC immunity and doesn't really help in keeping targets still, especially with the two terrible 90 degree cones you and your targets need to have aligned in order to connect the stun.

Making Arterial burst have more range would help a lot, and I know this because as a magDK player my melee range is at 7 meters instead of 5. Even then I honestly prefer my Flame Whip more since I get more time on target with it thanks to the snare.

((Edited for Grammar))

olsborg · June 2020

From a pvp pov, I srsly doubt vampire can do with any buffs at this point.

ImSoPro · June 2020

I like everything you suggested. But I like blood frenzy personally I think they should either nerf the health cost and keep it at a static 15% loss instead of an increasing loss. Or replace it with a gap closer. I would not be opposed to that.

ApostateHobo · June 2020

Agree with everything you've said here. If vamp is going to be melee focused it definitely needs a gap closer, and blood frenzy is seriously way too risky for most content. Substituting a different effect for the below 50% health crit bonus on arterial burst is also a great idea because seriously how often will you be below 50% health, and when is it EVER a good idea to get that low to begin with.

JMadFour · June 2020

I have to say being able to basically Sprint past everything in a Delve is pretty awesome.

However, Stage 4 needs....SOMETHING else to make it worth staying in Stage 4. My suggestion is a flat damage increase to all Vampire skills with each Stage. Or maybe Crit Damage. Or something.

Also, now that I think about it, Purifying Bloody Mara should drop you all the way the Stage 1, instead of 1 stage at a time. Then we would have 1 Drink to take us to Stage 4, and 1 drink to drop us back down. and if we want Stage 2 or 3, we can just feed. We shouldn't have to drink THREE Bloody Maras to go from 4 to 1, especially since the ingredients to make it are so rare and the other effects last 2 hours. You're just making us waste ingredients.

JMadFour · June 2020

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Agree with everything you've said here. If vamp is going to be melee focused it definitely needs a gap closer, and blood frenzy is seriously way too risky for most content. Substituting a different effect for the below 50% health crit bonus on arterial burst is also a great idea because seriously how often will you be below 50% health, and when is it EVER a good idea to get that low to begin with.

It's pretty much never a good idea, and as a MagSorc I always have Crit Surge running and my Crit rate is at least 50% if not higher, so....staying below 50% health doesn't last that long.

Nemesis7884 · June 2020

additionally i think the drain skills need to be reworked...pretty pointless

TX12001rwb17_ESO · June 2020

The Sorcerer is not really a Vampire themed class nor is Templar, Warden or Dragonknight for that matter, even the Necromancer is questionable, being a Vampire is very likely more intended for Nightblades from the matching color of abilities to the synergy with the class skills.

- Which class has siphoning abilities that heal them while dealing damage which would allow effective use of Blood Frenzy?
- Which class already has a gap-closer and does not need the one ability that gives them enough power to compete removed?
- Which class can make the most effective use of Dark Stalker and actually make use of it's effect while in a fight?
- Which class can keep strike from shadows active in an entire fight?

JMadFour · June 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The Sorcerer is not really a Vampire themed class nor is Templar, Warden or Dragonknight for that matter, even the Necromancer is questionable, being a Vampire is very likely more intended for Nightblades from the matching color of abilities to the synergy with the class skills.

- Which class has siphoning abilities that heal them while dealing damage which would allow effective use of Blood Frenzy?
- Which class already has a gap-closer and does not need the one ability that gives them enough power to compete removed?
- Which class can make the most effective use of Dark Stalker and actually make use of it's effect while in a fight?
- Which class can keep strike from shadows active in an entire fight?

Yes, it's clear that Nightblade is the most natural fit. No one denies that. And my NB is a also a Vampire. I've just been playing my Sorc more recently.

That does not mean though that the other classes are unusable with Vampire.

One advantage of the Sorc is that the "Non-Vampire skill" cost increase doesn't hit nearly as hard, due to the Sorc having skill cost decreases built into it for fairly cheap skills from the get-go. on Stage 4 nearly all of my main non-Vamp skills are still below 3k magicka, where on my NB they are probably closer to 5k.

Also, Critical Surge is friggin fantastic on a Vamp.

Overall though...Blood Frenzy is just not a good or fun skill to use. Any universal skill that only one class can make proper use of....is just bad. That's why I'd like to see it replace with a Gap Closer. Move that Weapon/Spell Damage bonus to Strike from Shadows or something. Or maybe make that another Stage 4 benefit.

Ferrym4n · June 2020

I'm still exploring the new line on my NB. Good to see it's gained more specified theme. Intention of the line versus Gamers use of the line will always differ, there are quite a few sets that can support some of the issues raised in this thread.

Personally I will welcome less Templars being Vampires, as it is a thing that should not be. No Servant of the Light should have the powers of an Agent of Darkness.

Spectral_Force · June 2020

To respond to your general sentiment, I also hold the opinion that the system in general is fine, but needs some tweaks and changes. In fact, I've been hounding Vampire threads since around... week 2 on PTS, and from what I've seen I'd argue that most vocal uh, vampire enthusiasts agree as well.

I see this gap closer idea pop up quite a lot (again, since the PTS), and I've been thinking about ways to implement it without just being a carbon copy of *insert generic 22m-range homing gap closer*. Since this discussion touches on that, I'll post my latest idea here.

I reckon it would be interesting to see a more short-ranged (7-12 metres), untargeted magicka-based dash ability in the Vampire toolkit that would propel you forward/sideways/backward based on your current direction of travel. To compensate for the shorter range, make it cheaper to use, give it higher travel speed and make it more chainable/spammable in general. Hell, it doesn't even need to do damage as long as the other effects are balanced accordingly. Finally, either make it provide invincibility frames or give you Elusive Mist's 75% damage reduction for the duration.

What you end up with is a very versatile ability - it can be used to close gaps (as long as spamming teleport is faster than sprinting) or for general travel, it's useful for getting out of AoEs/red, it can be used to keep your distance if you're a ranged character, or even as a Magicka alternative to dodging. And if this replaces the Elusive Mist morph, it can quickly and cheaply proc Strike from the Shadows without having to toggle on/off or toggle/bar swap Mist Form. And since its cost will be relatively low, it can even be slotted on stamina characters if needed.

cheemers · June 2020

Spectral_Force wrote: »

To respond to your general sentiment, I also hold the opinion that the system in general is fine, but needs some tweaks and changes. In fact, I've been hounding Vampire threads since around... week 2 on PTS, and from what I've seen I'd argue that most vocal uh, vampire enthusiasts agree as well.

I see this gap closer idea pop up quite a lot (again, since the PTS), and I've been thinking about ways to implement it without just being a carbon copy of *insert generic 22m-range homing gap closer*. Since this discussion touches on that, I'll post my latest idea here.

I reckon it would be interesting to see a more short-ranged (7-12 metres), untargeted magicka-based dash ability in the Vampire toolkit that would propel you forward/sideways/backward based on your current direction of travel. To compensate for the shorter range, make it cheaper to use, give it higher travel speed and make it more chainable/spammable in general. Hell, it doesn't even need to do damage as long as the other effects are balanced accordingly. Finally, either make it provide invincibility frames or give you Elusive Mist's 75% damage reduction for the duration.

What you end up with is a very versatile ability - it can be used to close gaps (as long as spamming teleport is faster than sprinting) or for general travel, it's useful for getting out of AoEs/red, it can be used to keep your distance if you're a ranged character, or even as a Magicka alternative to dodging. And if this replaces the Elusive Mist morph, it can quickly and cheaply proc Strike from the Shadows without having to toggle on/off or toggle/bar swap Mist Form. And since its cost will be relatively low, it can even be slotted on stamina characters if needed.

So... streak?

Rowjoh · June 2020

the re-fresh looked exciting at first but it has quickly become apparent that vampire isn't really viable in PVP and isn't BIS for PVE.

tellingly, almost all Greymoor-optimised build videos have ditched vampire in favour of mystic ring builds.

colossalvoids · June 2020

Rowjoh wrote: »

the re-fresh looked exciting at first but it has quickly become apparent that vampire isn't really viable in PVP and isn't BIS for PVE.

tellingly, almost all Greymoor-optimised build videos have ditched vampire in favour of mystic ring builds.

Would argue that it isn't bis for pve (trials), practically bfb makes us drop pfg (or 4 piece it with thrassian) and run something like siroria/mothers, elf bane/siroria depending on a class and concrete content surely.

Edit to exclude sorc from the list due to frags proc condition:)

Rtzon · June 2020

I agree with all your points except for removing frenzy. Shimmering Frenzy is my favorite and most used skill

Spectral_Force · June 2020

cheemers wrote: »

Spectral_Force wrote: »

To respond to your general sentiment, I also hold the opinion that the system in general is fine, but needs some tweaks and changes. In fact, I've been hounding Vampire threads since around... week 2 on PTS, and from what I've seen I'd argue that most vocal uh, vampire enthusiasts agree as well.

I see this gap closer idea pop up quite a lot (again, since the PTS), and I've been thinking about ways to implement it without just being a carbon copy of *insert generic 22m-range homing gap closer*. Since this discussion touches on that, I'll post my latest idea here.

I reckon it would be interesting to see a more short-ranged (7-12 metres), untargeted magicka-based dash ability in the Vampire toolkit that would propel you forward/sideways/backward based on your current direction of travel. To compensate for the shorter range, make it cheaper to use, give it higher travel speed and make it more chainable/spammable in general. Hell, it doesn't even need to do damage as long as the other effects are balanced accordingly. Finally, either make it provide invincibility frames or give you Elusive Mist's 75% damage reduction for the duration.

What you end up with is a very versatile ability - it can be used to close gaps (as long as spamming teleport is faster than sprinting) or for general travel, it's useful for getting out of AoEs/red, it can be used to keep your distance if you're a ranged character, or even as a Magicka alternative to dodging. And if this replaces the Elusive Mist morph, it can quickly and cheaply proc Strike from the Shadows without having to toggle on/off or toggle/bar swap Mist Form. And since its cost will be relatively low, it can even be slotted on stamina characters if needed.

So... streak?

You know, it completely escaped me as I was writing that. Yes, similar to Streak (more like Bolt Escape, actually), except multi-directional (if possible), doing no damage, costing ~1700-2000 magicka instead of 3780 (ballpark, given vampire cost reductions), and proccing SftS.

And, you know, vampire effects.

Jacozilla · June 2020

Cameron991 wrote: »

I agree with basically everything you have said. Especially about the gap closer, and the blood frenzy is just so risky to use the health loss is way too much and way to fast to do anything with it

I use and like frenzy just fine. On some bosses, can keep simmering frenzy uptime as high as 60% (1st boss vKA for example).

Once learned how to use the toggle, and when, frenzy adds to make more viable builds, which is what we need, not less # of viable builds. So no, tweaks to frenzy would be fine, but change it whole sale? No thanks.

red_emu · June 2020

JMadFour wrote: »

I have to say being able to basically Sprint past everything in a Delve is pretty awesome.

However, Stage 4 needs....SOMETHING else to make it worth staying in Stage 4. My suggestion is a flat damage increase to all Vampire skills with each Stage. Or maybe Crit Damage. Or something.

Also, now that I think about it, Purifying Bloody Mara should drop you all the way the Stage 1, instead of 1 stage at a time. Then we would have 1 Drink to take us to Stage 4, and 1 drink to drop us back down. and if we want Stage 2 or 3, we can just feed. We shouldn't have to drink THREE Bloody Maras to go from 4 to 1, especially since the ingredients to make it are so rare and the other effects last 2 hours. You're just making us waste ingredients.

I totally agree. I feel way to drunk to fight after 3 bloody maras!

Fur_like_snow · June 2020

Gap closer in 2020? I get that vampire is slated for melee range but that just doesn’t seem necessary when you have so many sources of speed increase plus it saves an extra skill slot for something else. Genuinely surprised at the number of players asking for it.

Bobby_V_Rockit · June 2020

I main a magsorc too and I’m really enjoying it, no problems with sustain and feels pretty solid damage wise. I really wish one of the blood for blood or arterial burst was ranged though

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun · June 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The Sorcerer is not really a Vampire themed class nor is Templar, Warden or Dragonknight for that matter, even the Necromancer is questionable, being a Vampire is very likely more intended for Nightblades from the matching color of abilities to the synergy with the class skills.

That would be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in an MMO if it were true (and Necromancers being a, "questionable" fit for vampirism? Seriously?). Imagine if other games pulled that stunt. "Yeah, we have this new Covenant system being added into Shadowlands, but it's only for Hunters.". "Yeah, we have new Relic Weapons being added in FFXIV, but only if you're a Ninja".

They'd get raked over the coals, and rightfully so.

jlmurra2 · June 2020

I like that the new Vampire skill line provides an alternate way to play Magicka characters. I dislike that it does not provide the same option, with the exception of sneak bonus, for Stamina, and Tank Characters. Especially since the vampire skill line provided benefits to those types of builds until the Greymoor Update.

Michaelkeir · June 2020

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The Sorcerer is not really a Vampire themed class nor is Templar, Warden or Dragonknight for that matter, even the Necromancer is questionable, being a Vampire is very likely more intended for Nightblades from the matching color of abilities to the synergy with the class skills.

That would be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in an MMO if it were true (and Necromancers being a, "questionable" fit for vampirism? Seriously?). Imagine if other games pulled that stunt. "Yeah, we have this new Covenant system being added into Shadowlands, but it's only for Hunters.". "Yeah, we have new Relic Weapons being added in FFXIV, but only if you're a Ninja".

They'd get raked over the coals, and rightfully so.

But you've got to admit they fit nightblades in theme, look, and feel a lot more then those other classes. Look at the vampire skills and look at the nightblade skills. Then look at the templar skills and then vampire skills. Now look at necromancer skills and look at nightblade skills. You can't say that the vamp skills match those others.

drakthir · June 2020

There's already too many melee mages, why the hell are they trying to force vampire to be magicka and melee.

Fur_like_snow · June 2020

Like I said in another thread vampire feels like they made 1/3 of a new class without anything else to tie it together.

JMadFour · June 2020

jlmurra2 wrote: »

I like that the new Vampire skill line provides an alternate way to play Magicka characters. I dislike that it does not provide the same option, with the exception of sneak bonus, for Stamina, and Tank Characters. Especially since the vampire skill line provided benefits to those types of builds until the Greymoor Update.

Eh...pre-Greymoor Vampire was basically just a regen passive...that was the extent of "benefits" for stamina and tank builds anyway.

Red_Feather · June 2020

I would love a gap closer like everyone else is saying.

And a gap creator too! Like a backstep warp that costs some life.

Sephyr · June 2020

I still find it rather funny that some people don't realize that the previous iteration of Vampirism did in fact have a gap closer tied to the ultimate.

Tessitura · June 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The Sorcerer is not really a Vampire themed class nor is Templar, Warden or Dragonknight for that matter, even the Necromancer is questionable, being a Vampire is very likely more intended for Nightblades from the matching color of abilities to the synergy with the class skills.

- Which class has siphoning abilities that heal them while dealing damage which would allow effective use of Blood Frenzy?
- Which class already has a gap-closer and does not need the one ability that gives them enough power to compete removed?
- Which class can make the most effective use of Dark Stalker and actually make use of it's effect while in a fight?
- Which class can keep strike from shadows active in an entire fight?

Passive healing from hots is more effective then healing on damage for blood frenzy.

A lot of classes have gap closers, DK, Temp, and Sorc all have effective gap closers.

I am not sure what you are getting at on the third point. No class can stealth in combat without invis, and invis lets you move at the same speed regardless. All classes have to break combat to crouch stealth.

All classes can with mistform, it's an easy toggle that can be canceled out of quickly.

I don't believe it was designed with only NB in mind at all. In fact, I have seen Necros, and sorcs get the most out of it recently. Which surprises me since I expected it to be Necros and Wardens. Thats not saying there is not a lot of NB vampires making good use of the kit, but it clearly was not designed for just that class.