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Hope for the final Q3/Q4 DLC and what they can do to fix the vampire re-vamp
Noxavian
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This is a post talking about what things they can do to fix the vampire re-vamp. IF YOU THINK THE VAMPIRE REVAMP IS FINE AS IS THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR YOU
Step 1: Add Bat-swarm gap closer.
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit.
Jokes aside, let us seriously discuss what they can do to fix the vampire re-vamp. Obviously, I propose a bat-swarm gap closer. I also propose they do one of these two options here:
1. Keep vampires melee focused and add in a gap-closer to make a 'melee' play style with them even viable. Would require the removal of Blood Frenzy or a mist form morph most likely.
2. Re-design eviscerate to be a long-ranged skill.
How would they do #2? Well, pretty easy actually, barely an inconvenience. Here is how:
1. Remove the claw swipe completely. Gone. Shoo. The animation is trash, sound effect is trash, it can be removed completely and barely anyone would bat an eye. Maybe throw it onto the Blood Scion form as a new light/heavy attack if they really wanted to keep the animation. Better use claws, though, not no stick like current vamps do.
2. Move vampiric drain up to the #1 ability slot again. Turn this ability into the main damage ability by giving it two different, but simple morphs. One morph splits the beam to latch onto ALL enemies near the initial target, dealing a percentage of tick dmg dealt to the main target to all targets. Basically turns it into a viable AoE ability. Very simple to code and animate. The other morph simply makes the ability a tether that latches onto the enemy, removing the channeling aspect of the ability.
3. In Eviscerate's place, throw in a bat skill. This ability would start off as a targetable DoT that siphons health away as it ticks. Think swarm of bats hitting a single dude, easy to animate as bat-swarms are already in game. Its morphs would include a Giant AoE bat swarm that follows your initial target (npc ability, already exists) while still applying the DoT to the main target and the second morph would be a charge-able bat swarm teleport that increases travel distance based on time charged. Can be interrupted with bash. This ability would be a UNIQUE offensive mobility ability that would play something kinda like streak, but unique and offensive as it would knock people over like the NPC ability. Also would provide simple counterplay unlike most gapclosers in game that are just instant.
There you have it, how to make vampires more 'vampiric' in a short paragraph. At least for me. Nothing too crazy, honestly, just working with a lot of what we already have. I didn't even touch on the Scion form, as Im sure someone will do that for me.
Though, I believe we all know the one main thing that would make the vampire rework better:
Re-do the freaking trailer. Seriously. The guy saying "blood frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire in the Elder Scrolls" while attacking an npc vamp using a cool bat ability is an interesting video-planning choice....and genuinely needs to be re-launched just for that aspect alone. I'm debating making a meme about it.
Let's post our thoughts here so @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_LeamonTuttle @ZOS_KaiSchober can see what we think and how they can use very simple animations that already exist in game to help give the players what they want in the vampire re-vamp.
Edited by Noxavian on June 10, 2020 9:14AM Step 1: Add Bat-swarm gap closer.
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit.
Jokes aside, let us seriously discuss what they can do to fix the vampire re-vamp. Obviously, I propose a bat-swarm gap closer. I also propose they do one of these two options here:
1. Keep vampires melee focused and add in a gap-closer to make a 'melee' play style with them even viable. Would require the removal of Blood Frenzy or a mist form morph most likely.
2. Re-design eviscerate to be a long-ranged skill.
How would they do #2? Well, pretty easy actually, barely an inconvenience. Here is how:
1. Remove the claw swipe completely. Gone. Shoo. The animation is trash, sound effect is trash, it can be removed completely and barely anyone would bat an eye. Maybe throw it onto the Blood Scion form as a new light/heavy attack if they really wanted to keep the animation. Better use claws, though, not no stick like current vamps do.
2. Move vampiric drain up to the #1 ability slot again. Turn this ability into the main damage ability by giving it two different, but simple morphs. One morph splits the beam to latch onto ALL enemies near the initial target, dealing a percentage of tick dmg dealt to the main target to all targets. Basically turns it into a viable AoE ability. Very simple to code and animate. The other morph simply makes the ability a tether that latches onto the enemy, removing the channeling aspect of the ability.
3. In Eviscerate's place, throw in a bat skill. This ability would start off as a targetable DoT that siphons health away as it ticks. Think swarm of bats hitting a single dude, easy to animate as bat-swarms are already in game. Its morphs would include a Giant AoE bat swarm that follows your initial target (npc ability, already exists) while still applying the DoT to the main target and the second morph would be a charge-able bat swarm teleport that increases travel distance based on time charged. Can be interrupted with bash. This ability would be a UNIQUE offensive mobility ability that would play something kinda like streak, but unique and offensive as it would knock people over like the NPC ability. Also would provide simple counterplay unlike most gapclosers in game that are just instant.
There you have it, how to make vampires more 'vampiric' in a short paragraph. At least for me. Nothing too crazy, honestly, just working with a lot of what we already have. I didn't even touch on the Scion form, as Im sure someone will do that for me.
Though, I believe we all know the one main thing that would make the vampire rework better:
Re-do the freaking trailer. Seriously. The guy saying "blood frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire in the Elder Scrolls" while attacking an npc vamp using a cool bat ability is an interesting video-planning choice....and genuinely needs to be re-launched just for that aspect alone. I'm debating making a meme about it.
Let's post our thoughts here so @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_LeamonTuttle @ZOS_KaiSchober can see what we think and how they can use very simple animations that already exist in game to help give the players what they want in the vampire re-vamp.
5
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Oathunbound✭✭✭You've been arguing for this since pts and i think its time to move on. A gap closer won't make vamp any better then it is now. The only sensible thing they can do is bring back old vamp as a different strain of vampire and revert the changes they did to the new vamp they made on pts. It was actually fairly balanced in the risk V reward style but then they overtweaked and made in blah in general.5 -
Lintashi✭✭✭✭✭I just want skill cost increase removed, and yes, gap closer. We have 3 major roles - dps, tanks, healers. Out of three, only dps can be somewhat viable as vamps after this update. So, revamp made almost two thirds of vamps, to cure themselves. Its like improving the game, to make players quit playing. Also, why make melee spammable, if there is no gap closer, to get into melee range?8 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just want skill cost increase removed, and yes, gap closer. We have 3 major roles - dps, tanks, healers. Out of three, only dps can be somewhat viable as vamps after this update. So, revamp made almost two thirds of vamps, to cure themselves. Its like improving the game, to make players quit playing. Also, why make melee spammable, if there is no gap closer, to get into melee range?
Best part is that it can barely do the DPS thing correctly. Since yet again, out of 5 abilities, they really only have 1 damage dealer.3 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I turned my nightblade into a vampire. Now I die more often from my own skills (e.g Blood Frenzy) than enemy players.
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm very close to losing hope they'll change anything. I posted what I can on these forums and all I can do is hope they do something about it this year.gatekeeper13 wrote: »I turned my nightblade into a vampire. Now I die more often from my own skills (e.g Blood Frenzy) than enemy players.
I know the feeling! I eventually learned if you plan to take blood frenzy with you into PVP you don't want to turn it off and on again incredibly fast since it drains health faster that way due to it being off the GCD. So turn it on, leave it active for a couple of seconds to get your heals and/or Ultimates off, and then turn the thing off. Don't activate it again till you are ready to do another burst.Edited by Vevvev on June 10, 2020 4:01PMPC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For me, I've grown to like Eviscerate as a skill (not their animations). I'd make the following changes myself though, if I had the opportunity since I'm a fan of #1.- Eviscerate would have a Stamina morph and one that scales on it rather than this health ability scaling on Magicka for build diversity. Make better animations (more unique, more vampiric).
- Use the pre-PTS version of Drain, tone down the damage ever so slightly from that version, but make one of the morphs give back Magicka.
- Replace Blood Frenzy with the bat gap closer.
- Put bats in Blood Mist and make it more vampiric.
- Fix Mesmerize to work more consistently with the Justice System.
3 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just want skill cost increase removed, and yes, gap closer. We have 3 major roles - dps, tanks, healers. Out of three, only dps can be somewhat viable as vamps after this update. So, revamp made almost two thirds of vamps, to cure themselves. Its like improving the game, to make players quit playing. Also, why make melee spammable, if there is no gap closer, to get into melee range?
No! I do not want vampirism to be necessary for players. Vampirism must have serious flaws.PC/EU2 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
No! I do not want vampirism to be necessary for players. Vampirism must have serious flaws.
So you don't think a multiplicative increase in flame damage and literally 0% health regeneration at stage 4 is a serious flaw? Not also to mention the prismatic weapon glyph and 20% increased damage from fighter's guild abilities?PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK6 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I seriously doubt Zos will make any major change to the revamped vampire line anytime soon. They will want to see how the skill line actually plays out. We know Zos looks at things like with for more than one or two quarters as the are still looking at this solo queue BG change.0 -
ApostateHobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really hope they do something about it in a future update. Even just removing the cost increase would be a huge improvement. Going to play around with it today see if I can do something halfway decent on my magblade, but I have a sneaking suspicion I'm just going to be dying more often.1 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ApostateHobo wrote: »I really hope they do something about it in a future update. Even just removing the cost increase would be a huge improvement. Going to play around with it today see if I can do something halfway decent on my magblade, but I have a sneaking suspicion I'm just going to be dying more often.
One thing I will say that helped me with the cost increase was swapping out one of my sets for a resource set that also added damage in places (there's only a few that'll fit that bill). The other was my race. Best advice I can give is build as a vampire, not your class. I had to change my comfy ranged playstyle to a melee short-form. I'm getting used to it and being Stage 4, but it could be far better considering the potential they could've put into it.Edited by Sephyr on June 10, 2020 4:58PM1 -
ApostateHobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭ApostateHobo wrote: »I really hope they do something about it in a future update. Even just removing the cost increase would be a huge improvement. Going to play around with it today see if I can do something halfway decent on my magblade, but I have a sneaking suspicion I'm just going to be dying more often.
One thing I will say that helped me with the cost increase was swapping out one of my sets for a resource set that also added damage in places (there's only a few that'll fit that bill). The other was my race. Best advice I can give is build as a vampire, not your class. I had to change my comfy ranged playstyle to a melee short-form. I'm getting used to it and being Stage 4, but it could be far better considering the potential they could've put into it.
Yeah I was thinking of swapping out one of my sets for maybe crafty alfiq or bright throat's because my sustain is gonna suuuck. Luckily I already tend to play more in melee range, so I've got that going for me I guess. And seriously there was so much potential, instead we get this really rushed wonky mess. I hope they fix it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they only ever make minor changes to some numbers.0 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
No! I do not want vampirism to be necessary for players. Vampirism must have serious flaws.
So you don't think a multiplicative increase in flame damage and literally 0% health regeneration at stage 4 is a serious flaw? Not also to mention the prismatic weapon glyph and 20% increased damage from fighter's guild abilities?
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.PC/EU2 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ApostateHobo wrote: »ApostateHobo wrote: »I really hope they do something about it in a future update. Even just removing the cost increase would be a huge improvement. Going to play around with it today see if I can do something halfway decent on my magblade, but I have a sneaking suspicion I'm just going to be dying more often.
One thing I will say that helped me with the cost increase was swapping out one of my sets for a resource set that also added damage in places (there's only a few that'll fit that bill). The other was my race. Best advice I can give is build as a vampire, not your class. I had to change my comfy ranged playstyle to a melee short-form. I'm getting used to it and being Stage 4, but it could be far better considering the potential they could've put into it.
Yeah I was thinking of swapping out one of my sets for maybe crafty alfiq or bright throat's because my sustain is gonna suuuck. Luckily I already tend to play more in melee range, so I've got that going for me I guess. And seriously there was so much potential, instead we get this really rushed wonky mess. I hope they fix it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they only ever make minor changes to some numbers.
I opted for Hollowfang to play on blood mist and it's pretty fun! I don't do vet raid progression damage so much anymore, but I still clear vet DLCs pretty swell. Bright Throat was another on my list, though I settled with Hollowfang for that blood helot. It's so satisfying when it pops. 0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives.
Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire. 5 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives. Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire.
The worst part out of all of this is they didn't consider the fact that since they decided to go full in on the magicka side of things with vampires, giving them a....melee ability as their main dmg dealer seems outlandish. because magicka HAS no melee weapons.
I don't really know of any other melee magicka ability in the game that isn't an AoE.
Especially in a skill line that has no mobility.... Which again, let me say, vampires with 0 mobility is the wackest thing I've ever heard.6 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives. Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire.
The worst part out of all of this is they didn't consider the fact that since they decided to go full in on the magicka side of things with vampires, giving them a....melee ability as their main dmg dealer seems outlandish. because magicka HAS no melee weapons.
I don't really know of any other melee magicka ability in the game that isn't an AoE.
Especially in a skill line that has no mobility.... Which again, let me say, vampires with 0 mobility is the wackest thing I've ever heard.
Dragonknights have Flame Whip that's a single target spammable and Searing Strike which is a single target melee DoT. Nightblades also have Concealed Weapon but other than those examples magicka doesn't really have very many options that are not AOEs of some sort.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives. Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire.
The worst part out of all of this is they didn't consider the fact that since they decided to go full in on the magicka side of things with vampires, giving them a....melee ability as their main dmg dealer seems outlandish. because magicka HAS no melee weapons.
I don't really know of any other melee magicka ability in the game that isn't an AoE.
Especially in a skill line that has no mobility.... Which again, let me say, vampires with 0 mobility is the wackest thing I've ever heard.
Indeed. I think they're trying to shoehorn in more vampiric abilities like Mist Form and Mesmerize into giving that illusion of mobility (stun and flee) as well as cater toward the vocalized portion of the playerbase that would be upset that vampires are 'stealing' from the 'nightblade toolkit'. I was able to find gameplay of the 2017 introduction of the Clouding Swarm teleport utility it had and uuuuugh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkEpW-caWgo
And I get the complaints against it. Class identity. I get that. But when the entire line is intended to replace most of your class abilities? Where's it's identity? I flat out lost all creative respect when I heard the line "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire." It doesn't. It has no identity, it's visually underwhelming, and it's completely the opposite of what vampirism really stands for. They're cold, calculating predators that ambush their prey. Not the "I'm going to commit suicide via using this ability I have". Honestly, I'd much rather a bat gap closer again. That'd honestly tide me over until they eventually nerf Eviscerate.Edited by Sephyr on June 11, 2020 2:29AM5 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives. Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire.
The worst part out of all of this is they didn't consider the fact that since they decided to go full in on the magicka side of things with vampires, giving them a....melee ability as their main dmg dealer seems outlandish. because magicka HAS no melee weapons.
I don't really know of any other melee magicka ability in the game that isn't an AoE.
Especially in a skill line that has no mobility.... Which again, let me say, vampires with 0 mobility is the wackest thing I've ever heard.
Indeed. I think they're trying to shoehorn in more vampiric abilities like Mist Form and Mesmerize into giving that illusion of mobility (stun and flee) as well as cater toward the vocalized portion of the playerbase that would be upset that vampires are 'stealing' from the 'nightblade toolkit'. I was able to find gameplay of the 2017 introduction of the Clouding Swarm teleport utility it had and uuuuugh.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkEpW-caWgo
And I get the complaints against it. Class identity. I get that. But when the entire line is intended to replace most of your class abilities? Where's it's identity? I flat out lost all creative respect when I heard the line "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire." It doesn't. It has no identity, it's visually underwhelming, and it's completely the opposite of what vampirism really stands for. They're cold, calculating predators that ambush their prey. Not the "I'm going to commit suicide via using this ability I have". Honestly, I'd much rather a bat gap closer again. That'd honestly tide me over until they eventually nerf Eviscerate.
The kicker here is that mist-form isn't faster than sprinting. So technically, you wouldnt get as far away with mist form + stun than you would with stun + sprint away. Which I think is kind of dumb within itself. Elusive mist should be VERY fast. I'm talking 60% extra movement speed. Did you know that apparently it once gave a 70% movement speed buff?????
If mist form was made to actually be fast, it could kinda act as a gapcloser.
I find it ironic that a morph dedicated to speed literally can be outran by someone sprinting (:5 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives. Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire.
The worst part out of all of this is they didn't consider the fact that since they decided to go full in on the magicka side of things with vampires, giving them a....melee ability as their main dmg dealer seems outlandish. because magicka HAS no melee weapons.
I don't really know of any other melee magicka ability in the game that isn't an AoE.
Especially in a skill line that has no mobility.... Which again, let me say, vampires with 0 mobility is the wackest thing I've ever heard.
Indeed. I think they're trying to shoehorn in more vampiric abilities like Mist Form and Mesmerize into giving that illusion of mobility (stun and flee) as well as cater toward the vocalized portion of the playerbase that would be upset that vampires are 'stealing' from the 'nightblade toolkit'. I was able to find gameplay of the 2017 introduction of the Clouding Swarm teleport utility it had and uuuuugh.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkEpW-caWgo
And I get the complaints against it. Class identity. I get that. But when the entire line is intended to replace most of your class abilities? Where's it's identity? I flat out lost all creative respect when I heard the line "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire." It doesn't. It has no identity, it's visually underwhelming, and it's completely the opposite of what vampirism really stands for. They're cold, calculating predators that ambush their prey. Not the "I'm going to commit suicide via using this ability I have". Honestly, I'd much rather a bat gap closer again. That'd honestly tide me over until they eventually nerf Eviscerate.
The kicker here is that mist-form isn't faster than sprinting. So technically, you wouldnt get as far away with mist form + stun than you would with stun + sprint away. Which I think is kind of dumb within itself. Elusive mist should be VERY fast. I'm talking 60% extra movement speed. Did you know that apparently it once gave a 70% movement speed buff?????
If mist form was made to actually be fast, it could kinda act as a gapcloser.
I find it ironic that a morph dedicated to speed literally can be outran by someone sprinting (:
Yeah, I definitely noticed that. It's why it's a big illusion. They seemingly don't want to buff the already fast Swift builds, but I don't get it considering that not only is there a speed cap, you can get to the speed cap with Ring of the Wild Hunt and Darloc Brae in stealth along with a slew of other ways from natural class, guild line, and PvP abilities with 100% uptime. Oh and stacking Swift. It's totally perplexing from a design standpoint why there's this sluggish behavior in the base ability and both morphs. That's why I opted for Blood Mist though. If I was going to be slow, I may as well get a health return by it since the Stage 4 sprint-invisibility is faster. While I don't regen and my 'natural' abilities all have a crazy cost increase, I've managed to be okay and am right under the line with a half-arsed rotation on a 6mil dummy without synergies or someone buffing me.
Also, let's look at some weirdness as well. You can stealth while mist forming. Meaning that if you use a set like Darloc Brae and have something else like Warlock to give you flat magicka value returns back and you can literally stay in Mist Form almost permanently. Why? I don't know. But Mara forbid that extra speed with Mist Form, amirite?Edited by Sephyr on June 11, 2020 3:42AM0 -
JMadFour✭✭✭✭✭Vamp absolutely needs a gap closer.
OR Eviscerate needs to be ranged. either/or, imo.
Also, let me restore Magicka with Melee HAs, so I can use a Sword like all the Vampires in the trailers do. Just slap a Passive in some neutral skill line for it.Edited by JMadFour on June 11, 2020 3:53AM7 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives. Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire.
The worst part out of all of this is they didn't consider the fact that since they decided to go full in on the magicka side of things with vampires, giving them a....melee ability as their main dmg dealer seems outlandish. because magicka HAS no melee weapons.
I don't really know of any other melee magicka ability in the game that isn't an AoE.
Especially in a skill line that has no mobility.... Which again, let me say, vampires with 0 mobility is the wackest thing I've ever heard.
Indeed. I think they're trying to shoehorn in more vampiric abilities like Mist Form and Mesmerize into giving that illusion of mobility (stun and flee) as well as cater toward the vocalized portion of the playerbase that would be upset that vampires are 'stealing' from the 'nightblade toolkit'. I was able to find gameplay of the 2017 introduction of the Clouding Swarm teleport utility it had and uuuuugh.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkEpW-caWgo
And I get the complaints against it. Class identity. I get that. But when the entire line is intended to replace most of your class abilities? Where's it's identity? I flat out lost all creative respect when I heard the line "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire." It doesn't. It has no identity, it's visually underwhelming, and it's completely the opposite of what vampirism really stands for. They're cold, calculating predators that ambush their prey. Not the "I'm going to commit suicide via using this ability I have". Honestly, I'd much rather a bat gap closer again. That'd honestly tide me over until they eventually nerf Eviscerate.
The kicker here is that mist-form isn't faster than sprinting. So technically, you wouldnt get as far away with mist form + stun than you would with stun + sprint away. Which I think is kind of dumb within itself. Elusive mist should be VERY fast. I'm talking 60% extra movement speed. Did you know that apparently it once gave a 70% movement speed buff?????
If mist form was made to actually be fast, it could kinda act as a gapcloser.
I find it ironic that a morph dedicated to speed literally can be outran by someone sprinting (:
Yeah, I definitely noticed that. It's why it's a big illusion. They seemingly don't want to buff the already fast Swift builds, but I don't get it considering that not only is there a speed cap, you can get to the speed cap with Ring of the Wild Hunt and Darloc Brae in stealth along with a slew of other ways from natural class, guild line, and PvP abilities with 100% uptime. Oh and stacking Swift. It's totally perplexing from a design standpoint why there's this sluggish behavior in the base ability and both morphs. That's why I opted for Blood Mist though. If I was going to be slow, I may as well get a health return by it since the Stage 4 sprint-invisibility is faster. While I don't regen and my 'natural' abilities all have a crazy cost increase, I've managed to be okay and am right under the line with a half-arsed rotation on a 6mil dummy without synergies or someone buffing me.
Also, let's look at some weirdness as well. You can stealth while mist forming. Meaning that if you use a set like Darloc Brae and have something else like Warlock to give you flat magicka value returns back and you can literally stay in Mist Form almost permanently. Why? I don't know. But Mara forbid that extra speed with Mist Form, amirite?
That is kind of a big theme with this year's vampire rework, huh? An illusion of a vampire rework. It is kinda funny, actually, because apparently they designed some REALLY COOL abilities/concepts for the NPCs, but couldn't transfer that to the skill line for some reason. I Just want a bat gap closer at this point. If we're going to be melee based, give us some mobility.
Also yeah, imagine having an entire morph dedicated to speed that you can't sprint in, yet it isn't faster than normal sprint. The old morph used to be 70%....they should of moved it back with the re-work. But knowing ZOS, they probably forgot it used to be so fast. Seriously, go find some old vids with it. It used to be so cool....
But yeah, apparently sneaking and staying in mist form permanently is ok, but *using a morph called elusive mist to go fast* is wrong? At that point, why not replace it with a bat swarm teleport or something? If Im not going to be as fast as I sprint in it, then what is the point???????
I can only hope that Q3/Q4 bring some sort of change. If not, none of this will ever be touched until they eventually add in more bloodlines probably. Though, I think ESO is going to die before more bloodlines get added in.2 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Vamp absolutely needs a gap closer.
OR Eviscerate needs to be ranged. either/or, imo.
Also, let me restore Magicka with Melee HAs, so I can use a Sword like all the Vampires in the trailers do. Just slap a Passive in some neutral skill line for it.
Yes! A gap closer would be excellent. I'd be willing to overlook literally every single other flaw with this rework if they gave us a proper gap closer. The one I suggested would be UNIQUE too. It could bring something to the table that no other gap closer in the game does. A charge up to go longer distances....
I'd also take eviscerate being ranged too!Edited by Noxavian on June 11, 2020 5:12AM1 -
Avoranti✭✭✭✭✭On PS4. I’ve been playing a WW on my Stamina Templar for months. As soon as we got the Greymoor release I opted to cure my WW and become a vampire. Then, as I started using the abilities in the quest to become a vampire, I immediately regretted my decision. I absolutely hate it. All the skills are magic based except 1 and it has a ridiculous health cost.
The health recover being -100% at stage 4 is not ok. The cost for Blood Frenzy is not ok.
I really was hoping that skill line would have been less punishing but no, it’s severely punishing And it’s not FUN. I’ll be switching back to a WW.4 -
Josira✭✭✭✭A gap closer would fix vampire....mechanically. still would be an underwelming skill line.
Honestly if they dont change anything in the last quarter dlc though..we are likely stuck with it.
But
I had an idea for vampiric drain. maybe instead its an execute. does 300% more damage depending on the targets missing health..OR maybe its like a heal execute. restores up to 300% more hp depending on your missing health? or maybe a reverse execute,doing the extra damage depending on your missing health like eviscerate.
Regardless. even if we did get the gap closer. we still wouldnt have...good art and animations.
Personally I really really want a redesign of blood scion..then claw light and heavy attacks...then a gapcloser.
But a Gapcloser would make this at least a functional skill line
Oh. and you know who said that infamous quote about blood frenzy? its the creative director. not just a dev.
So...yeah..wow.
[snip]
Speaking of blood frenzy,a numbers tweak wont save it. it will either always be too underpowered or (godforbid) too overpowered. tweaking the numbers just wont work on a skill such as this. the whole skill needs to be replaced.
[edited for bashing]
Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on June 11, 2020 2:40PM"BlooD FReNZy TicKS aLL thE BoXes of WhaT iT mEanS tO bE a VaMpiRe"4 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Do you really want vampirism to have no weaknesses and just be another battle skill line? I am glad that I can finally save my characters from vampirism. Now vampirism feels like a separate gameplay, and not just passivation for 10% regeneration, as it was before.
Where'd you get that idea from? I've always been advocating making the flame damage weakness more, and instead the devs made it less. I have 0 issues giving vampires weaknesses but a cost increase shouldn't be one of them since it makes no sense at all. It also completely kills build ideas since stamina builds can't even take advantage of many of the passives without having their sustain gutted. Had there been a stamina morph of Eviscerate or the skills scaled with max stats I wouldn't have thought of it as badly as I do right now. This is coming from a person that plays almost exclusively magicka builds btw.
Same. The build diversity is just severely lacking. While I get the idea that "Vampires are Magicka and Werewolves are Stamina", it simply doesn't work for the vampire bit. Especially with Eviscerate's morphs. Drain Vigor doesn't return enough Stamina to slot on a Stamina-based character because the heal is useless compared to Vigor from PvP. Literally the only thing Vampirism has going for it for Stamina is Mist Form and the Stage 2 passives. Look at all those boxes ticked of what it means to be a vampire.
The worst part out of all of this is they didn't consider the fact that since they decided to go full in on the magicka side of things with vampires, giving them a....melee ability as their main dmg dealer seems outlandish. because magicka HAS no melee weapons.
I don't really know of any other melee magicka ability in the game that isn't an AoE.
Especially in a skill line that has no mobility.... Which again, let me say, vampires with 0 mobility is the wackest thing I've ever heard.
Indeed. I think they're trying to shoehorn in more vampiric abilities like Mist Form and Mesmerize into giving that illusion of mobility (stun and flee) as well as cater toward the vocalized portion of the playerbase that would be upset that vampires are 'stealing' from the 'nightblade toolkit'. I was able to find gameplay of the 2017 introduction of the Clouding Swarm teleport utility it had and uuuuugh.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkEpW-caWgo
And I get the complaints against it. Class identity. I get that. But when the entire line is intended to replace most of your class abilities? Where's it's identity? I flat out lost all creative respect when I heard the line "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire." It doesn't. It has no identity, it's visually underwhelming, and it's completely the opposite of what vampirism really stands for. They're cold, calculating predators that ambush their prey. Not the "I'm going to commit suicide via using this ability I have". Honestly, I'd much rather a bat gap closer again. That'd honestly tide me over until they eventually nerf Eviscerate.
The kicker here is that mist-form isn't faster than sprinting. So technically, you wouldnt get as far away with mist form + stun than you would with stun + sprint away. Which I think is kind of dumb within itself. Elusive mist should be VERY fast. I'm talking 60% extra movement speed. Did you know that apparently it once gave a 70% movement speed buff?????
If mist form was made to actually be fast, it could kinda act as a gapcloser.
I find it ironic that a morph dedicated to speed literally can be outran by someone sprinting (:
Yeah, I definitely noticed that. It's why it's a big illusion. They seemingly don't want to buff the already fast Swift builds, but I don't get it considering that not only is there a speed cap, you can get to the speed cap with Ring of the Wild Hunt and Darloc Brae in stealth along with a slew of other ways from natural class, guild line, and PvP abilities with 100% uptime. Oh and stacking Swift. It's totally perplexing from a design standpoint why there's this sluggish behavior in the base ability and both morphs. That's why I opted for Blood Mist though. If I was going to be slow, I may as well get a health return by it since the Stage 4 sprint-invisibility is faster. While I don't regen and my 'natural' abilities all have a crazy cost increase, I've managed to be okay and am right under the line with a half-arsed rotation on a 6mil dummy without synergies or someone buffing me.
Also, let's look at some weirdness as well. You can stealth while mist forming. Meaning that if you use a set like Darloc Brae and have something else like Warlock to give you flat magicka value returns back and you can literally stay in Mist Form almost permanently. Why? I don't know. But Mara forbid that extra speed with Mist Form, amirite?
That is kind of a big theme with this year's vampire rework, huh? An illusion of a vampire rework. It is kinda funny, actually, because apparently they designed some REALLY COOL abilities/concepts for the NPCs, but couldn't transfer that to the skill line for some reason. I Just want a bat gap closer at this point. If we're going to be melee based, give us some mobility.
Also yeah, imagine having an entire morph dedicated to speed that you can't sprint in, yet it isn't faster than normal sprint. The old morph used to be 70%....they should of moved it back with the re-work. But knowing ZOS, they probably forgot it used to be so fast. Seriously, go find some old vids with it. It used to be so cool....
But yeah, apparently sneaking and staying in mist form permanently is ok, but *using a morph called elusive mist to go fast* is wrong? At that point, why not replace it with a bat swarm teleport or something? If Im not going to be as fast as I sprint in it, then what is the point???????
I can only hope that Q3/Q4 bring some sort of change. If not, none of this will ever be touched until they eventually add in more bloodlines probably. Though, I think ESO is going to die before more bloodlines get added in.
A very much so indeed. They were really trying to sell the idea by sprinkling buzzwords around it rather than legitimately showing what we were getting, even in the stream specifically dedicated to the changes. It's not worthy of being called a revamp until it works. I guarantee that the vampires we see as NPCs in Greymoor are set up as a class because of how different they are. For Lamae to say that we will have an 'array of abilities' at our command is a vast overstatement. I remember the old ability too. I didn't use it too much being that most of what I was doing at the time, I didn't have room to slot it.
I tried using Baleful Mist a couple of times too, but Elusive was the better morph hands down.
As far as the speed goes, I could see it argued that since they're able to maintain the channel for so long being that it's not a fire-and-forget ability that it would be 'overpowered' in that sense, but it really isn't considering there's way other cheesier ways of getting it that high. And if they're worried about scroll running and Elusive Mist, disable the ability while it has in possession. Everyone wins. It'd even be better as a misting bat teleport and then add the 30% movement speed to Blood Mist and change the animations of it. That'd even fix that portion.
With the bloodlines, I doubt they'll even want to being the fact that it's more to add to the balancing pile based on how they're so focused on the spreadsheet rather than true creative direction and storyboarding.A gap closer would fix vampire....mechanically. still would be an underwelming skill line.
Honestly if they dont change anything in the last quarter dlc though..we are likely stuck with it.
But
I had an idea for vampiric drain. maybe instead its an execute. does 300% more damage depending on the targets missing health..OR maybe its like a heal execute. restores up to 300% more hp depending on your missing health? or maybe a reverse execute,doing the extra damage depending on your missing health like eviscerate.
Regardless. even if we did get the gap closer. we still wouldnt have...good art and animations.
Personally I really really want a redesign of blood scion..then claw light and heavy attacks...then a gapcloser.
But a Gapcloser would make this at least a functional skill line
Oh. and you know who said that infamous quote about blood frenzy? its the creative director. not just a dev.
So...yeah..wow.
[snip]
Speaking of blood frenzy,a numbers tweak wont save it. it will either always be too underpowered or (godforbid) too overpowered. tweaking the numbers just wont work on a skill such as this. the whole skill needs to be replaced.
Yeah, we know who Rich is. That's why I mentioned that I've just lost all creative respect for the direction it headed. There's nothing really unique or vampire-box ticking when it comes to the line aside from one ability that could work way better and that's Blood Mist. The rest I have a chore of trying to get everything to work and flow. All of the art work and textures though really need to be reworked. I'd say rework the form too, but that's never going to happen so we're stuck with ugly horns, a terrible copper complexion, and super weird thighs.Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on June 11, 2020 2:40PM4
