Blood for Blood inconsistencies.

deLioncourt · June 2020

I've noticed a few things using this skill. The description says it has a range of 5 meters. That's 15 feet. But I routinely find that I have to be right on the target to use it. The distance at which B4B becomes unusable is less than my character's total height.

It feels like I need to be 0 meters away from the target to hit them with it.

I've also had situations where i've cast blood for blood on a target, saw the animation, heard it, and watched my health take a hit, but absolutely zero damage occurs.
It feels a bit wonkier than Blastbones even.

Has anyone else noticed anything like this?

Sephyr · June 2020

deLioncourt wrote: »

I've noticed a few things using this skill. The description says it has a range of 5 meters. That's 15 feet. But I routinely find that I have to be right on the target to use it. The distance at which B4B becomes unusable is less than my character's total height.

It feels like I need to be 0 meters away from the target to hit them with it.

I've also had situations where i've cast blood for blood on a target, saw the animation, heard it, and watched my health take a hit, but absolutely zero damage occurs.
It feels a bit wonkier than Blastbones even.

Has anyone else noticed anything like this?

It's the same on the base ability as well as the other morph. So long as I'm close up I don't run into the zero damage, but then again mine hits so hard that the thing just dies within the first hit for me to notice.

Vevvev · June 2020

5 meters is melee range in ESO. Dragonknights can boost all melee skills to 7 meters which is quite useful when you think about it. Also if an enemy dodge rolls as you cast Blood for Blood you still consume the health to cast it but the ability will not hit since they dodged. This effects all abilities and I know in PVP and in heavy lag in PVE sometimes the ability will cancel mid cast and just not go through. Its annoying and has more to do with the game structure itself than the ability, which behaves like your standard melee spammable.

red_emu · June 2020

I noticed that too. My veiled strike hits at the melee range no problem but the vamp spammable stays greyed out until I'm nearly "phasing through" another player.

Maybe there's an error somewhere and the range is coded wrong? It's a nice spammable but in PvP it's very hard to stay 0 meters away from an enemy.

deLioncourt · June 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

5 meters is melee range in ESO. Dragonknights can boost all melee skills to 7 meters which is quite useful when you think about it. Also if an enemy dodge rolls as you cast Blood for Blood you still consume the health to cast it but the ability will not hit since they dodged. This effects all abilities and I know in PVP and in heavy lag in PVE sometimes the ability will cancel mid cast and just not go through. Its annoying and has more to do with the game structure itself than the ability, which behaves like your standard melee spammable.

5 Meters is 15 feet. I'd need about a 12 foot sword to hit something "in melee range" at 15 feet.

Decent adjustment to it would be to make its range 7-8 meters. Heck, i'd even accept 6. Anything is something.

5 Meters is definitely 0 meters in some situations for blood for blood.

Vevvev · June 2020

deLioncourt wrote: »

5 Meters is 15 feet. I'd need about a 12 foot sword to hit something "in melee range" at 15 feet.

Decent adjustment to it would be to make its range 7-8 meters. Heck, i'd even accept 6. Anything is something.

5 Meters is definitely 0 meters in some situations for blood for blood.

ESO uses a different range system and people have pointed out these facts since the game's inception. ESO is not realistic by a long shot and the 5 meter range is the lowest range for melee attacks. Some abilities have a longer range like Flurry at 7 meters and the Templar's Spear at 8, but you'll realize they're either a spear which is longer than a blade or designed to be more 'sticky' so you actually hit.

5 meters due to how the server positional desyncs dictate combat is melee range and would appear to you to be 0 meters. In actuality your target is a meter or two ahead of where you actually see them, and you're a meter or two behind where you actually think you are. Use this knowledge to your advantage and you'll be hitting more often.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · June 2020

I have noticed this as well, not only does it require you to be up close but I have had several occurrences happen where I have casted the ability twice in a row and see both animations complete but I only dealt damage on the first use.

mairwen85 · June 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

deLioncourt wrote: »

5 Meters is 15 feet. I'd need about a 12 foot sword to hit something "in melee range" at 15 feet.

Decent adjustment to it would be to make its range 7-8 meters. Heck, i'd even accept 6. Anything is something.

5 Meters is definitely 0 meters in some situations for blood for blood.

ESO uses a different range system and people have pointed out these facts since the game's inception. ESO is not realistic by a long shot and the 5 meter range is the lowest range for melee attacks. Some abilities have a longer range like Flurry at 7 meters and the Templar's Spear at 8, but you'll realize they're either a spear which is longer than a blade or designed to be more 'sticky' so you actually hit.

5 meters due to how the server positional desyncs dictate combat is melee range and would appear to you to be 0 meters. In actuality your target is a meter or two ahead of where you actually see them, and you're a meter or two behind where you actually think you are. Use this knowledge to your advantage and you'll be hitting more often.

This confuses me. So, you're saying that my character is not where the client tells me it is, and neither is my target?

How then can I use that knowledge to my advantage if nothing I see on screen is accurate? The target could be anywhere closer or further away according to you (potentially offset left or right too), as could any number of other mobs in the immediate area. This doesn't sound like something I should need to learn or be aware of, but something in the server/client comm chain that needs fixing, or indeed resolved by the rendering of the scene. If we play the game according to how skills are described in tool tips, the game should provide the scenario that meets the same criteria, not expect us to make assumptions and guesses to compensate.

Kadoin · June 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

deLioncourt wrote: »

5 Meters is 15 feet. I'd need about a 12 foot sword to hit something "in melee range" at 15 feet.

Decent adjustment to it would be to make its range 7-8 meters. Heck, i'd even accept 6. Anything is something.

5 Meters is definitely 0 meters in some situations for blood for blood.

ESO uses a different range system and people have pointed out these facts since the game's inception. ESO is not realistic by a long shot and the 5 meter range is the lowest range for melee attacks. Some abilities have a longer range like Flurry at 7 meters and the Templar's Spear at 8, but you'll realize they're either a spear which is longer than a blade or designed to be more 'sticky' so you actually hit.

5 meters due to how the server positional desyncs dictate combat is melee range and would appear to you to be 0 meters. In actuality your target is a meter or two ahead of where you actually see them, and you're a meter or two behind where you actually think you are. Use this knowledge to your advantage and you'll be hitting more often.

This confuses me. So, you're saying that my character is not where the client tells me it is, and neither is my target?

How then can I use that knowledge to my advantage if nothing I see on screen is accurate? The target could be anywhere closer or further away according to you (potentially offset left or right too), as could any number of other mobs in the immediate area. This doesn't sound like something I should need to learn or be aware of, but something in the server/client comm chain that needs fixing, or indeed resolved by the rendering of the scene. If we play the game according to how skills are described in tool tips, the game should provide the scenario that meets the same criteria, not expect us to make assumptions and guesses to compensate.

Sadly that is the case, and it is a problem that is worse this patch. It's been a problem I remember first talking about on the forums in Morrowind, then on the PTS section of Summerset when they introduced swift I was against it and mentioned it too. It has never been fixed and is a bug that can be advantageous if you know how to use it right, but I doubt we can discuss that kind of thing on the forums. Let me just say if you know how to use it you can make all damage never apply to your character in any content in the game, just as you cannot harm those NPC targets.

It is actually one of the most disappointing bugs in the game to see abused in PvP, but luckily not many have an idea how to do it and there are ways to counter it even at base speed.

mairwen85 · June 2020

Kadoin wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

deLioncourt wrote: »

5 Meters is 15 feet. I'd need about a 12 foot sword to hit something "in melee range" at 15 feet.

Decent adjustment to it would be to make its range 7-8 meters. Heck, i'd even accept 6. Anything is something.

5 Meters is definitely 0 meters in some situations for blood for blood.

ESO uses a different range system and people have pointed out these facts since the game's inception. ESO is not realistic by a long shot and the 5 meter range is the lowest range for melee attacks. Some abilities have a longer range like Flurry at 7 meters and the Templar's Spear at 8, but you'll realize they're either a spear which is longer than a blade or designed to be more 'sticky' so you actually hit.

5 meters due to how the server positional desyncs dictate combat is melee range and would appear to you to be 0 meters. In actuality your target is a meter or two ahead of where you actually see them, and you're a meter or two behind where you actually think you are. Use this knowledge to your advantage and you'll be hitting more often.

This confuses me. So, you're saying that my character is not where the client tells me it is, and neither is my target?

How then can I use that knowledge to my advantage if nothing I see on screen is accurate? The target could be anywhere closer or further away according to you (potentially offset left or right too), as could any number of other mobs in the immediate area. This doesn't sound like something I should need to learn or be aware of, but something in the server/client comm chain that needs fixing, or indeed resolved by the rendering of the scene. If we play the game according to how skills are described in tool tips, the game should provide the scenario that meets the same criteria, not expect us to make assumptions and guesses to compensate.

Sadly that is the case, and it is a problem that is worse this patch. It's been a problem I remember first talking about on the forums in Morrowind, then on the PTS section of Summerset when they introduced swift I was against it and mentioned it too. It has never been fixed and is a bug that can be advantageous if you know how to use it right, but I doubt we can discuss that kind of thing on the forums. Let me just say if you know how to use it you can make all damage never apply to your character in any content in the game, just as you cannot harm those NPC targets.

It is actually one of the most disappointing bugs in the game to see abused in PvP, but luckily not many have an idea how to do it and there are ways to counter it even at base speed.

I was aware this was the case with the 'target out of range' issue with looting, the corpse not being where it appears to be, but I wasn't aware it applied to literally all players and mobs too.

Sealish · June 2020

This happens with all online games. It is impossible to completely eliminate. It takes time for your client to communicate with the server and tell it that you are moving, and it takes time for the server to tell your client that other people or enemies have moved. This is one of the main reasons that pretty much all MMOs were tab-targeted for so long. It made it a lot easier to do hit detection. It’s pretty amazing that action based online games work at all (and well enough that most people don’t think about it or even know that what they are seeing isn’t actually real) when you think about it.

In online games where one player’s hardware becomes the effective server in room based multiplayer this is even called host advantage because they end up being the only person seeing everything as it truly is and their apparent skill at the game almost always goes up because of it.

mairwen85 · June 2020

Sealish wrote: »

This happens with all online games. It is impossible to completely eliminate. It takes time for your client to communicate with the server and tell it that you are moving, and it takes time for the server to tell your client that other people or enemies have moved. This is one of the main reasons that pretty much all MMOs were tab-targeted for so long. It made it a lot easier to do hit detection. It’s pretty amazing that action based online games work at all (and well enough that most people don’t think about it or even know that what they are seeing isn’t actually real) when you think about it.

In online games where one player’s hardware becomes the effective server in room based multiplayer this is even called host advantage because they end up being the only person seeing everything as it truly is and their apparent skill at the game almost always goes up because of it.

I get there will be a basic desynch and client side prediction to compensate, that is to be expected, but what people are describing is much more extreme than just that.

deLioncourt · June 2020

The desync problem in this game is a thousand times worse than any other online game I have ever played. To say every game has this issue is disingenuous at best.

Sephyr · June 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I have noticed this as well, not only does it require you to be up close but I have had several occurrences happen where I have casted the ability twice in a row and see both animations complete but I only dealt damage on the first use.

@TX12001rwb17_ESO Is there any way you can get a recording of that happening? Not that I don't believe you, I think it's just probably worth documenting.

deLioncourt · June 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I have noticed this as well, not only does it require you to be up close but I have had several occurrences happen where I have casted the ability twice in a row and see both animations complete but I only dealt damage on the first use.

@TX12001rwb17_ESO Is there any way you can get a recording of that happening? Not that I don't believe you, I think it's just probably worth documenting.

I'll keep this in mind as well, but its very easy for you to test yourself.

Grab a vamp toon and just out into the world and start spamming blood for blood.

Sephyr · June 2020

deLioncourt wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I have noticed this as well, not only does it require you to be up close but I have had several occurrences happen where I have casted the ability twice in a row and see both animations complete but I only dealt damage on the first use.

@TX12001rwb17_ESO Is there any way you can get a recording of that happening? Not that I don't believe you, I think it's just probably worth documenting.

I'll keep this in mind as well, but its very easy for you to test yourself.

Grab a vamp toon and just out into the world and start spamming blood for blood.

That's the thing, I have and I can't reproduce it. That's why I'm asking for recordings because it might not be something so universally experienced.

heaven13 · June 2020

It might also be beneficial to slot another skill with the same range. If you can show that one can be activated but Blood for Blood can't, despite both having the same range, it might give further information on whether it's a general desync issue or something with the skill itself.