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Should there be (are there) inexpensive PVP sets that can be bought with gold from vendor?

ImmortalCX
ImmortalCX
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The barrier for entry to PVP is getting geared. A good meta pvp set will cost 500K gold or more. Finding this information means going to alcast and looking for a build.

The observation is that you can run PVE dungeons and have success with pretty much any set you find. (The DLC and veteran dungeons may require a little more thought, but the sets are not expensive.) But the same is not true of PVP. If you attempt pvp as a new(poor) player with found gear, they will wipe the floor with you.

Maybe this exists, but there should be a bright flashing neon sign that says "Equip this gear and you will have a good time", with prices a novice can afford, without having to collect pvp currency. Of course they wouldn't be meta, but they would keep people alive.
  • ItsJustHashtag
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    You can get good enough sets that drop overland or craftable to get started in pvp. Getting end game pvp gear shouldn’t be handed to someone just starting out just as end game pve gear isn’t.
  • ImmortalCX
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    You can get good enough sets that drop overland or craftable to get started in pvp. Getting end game pvp gear shouldn’t be handed to someone just starting out just as end game pve gear isn’t.

    Im not talking about endgame pvp gear. Just something to let them survive and have a good time.

    The difference is that new players can walk into a dungeon with found gear and be successful. The same is not true of PVP.

    The barrier to PVP is actually higher than crafting/buying a meta set. If you plan to continue doing PVE, you actually need a second character with proper CP allocation and skills.

  • relentless_turnip
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    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    You can get good enough sets that drop overland or craftable to get started in pvp. Getting end game pvp gear shouldn’t be handed to someone just starting out just as end game pve gear isn’t.

    Im not talking about endgame pvp gear. Just something to let them survive and have a good time.

    The difference is that new players can walk into a dungeon with found gear and be successful. The same is not true of PVP.

    The barrier to PVP is actually higher than crafting/buying a meta set. If you plan to continue doing PVE, you actually need a second character with proper CP allocation and skills.

    Not true, it is as simple as asking someone to craft it for you... Most will only ask for the mats or the cost of. Overland sets are fine and dungeon sets are also fine. There is no unaccessible gear. Certainly not expensive, you can grind for overland sets yourself. You also can't just walk into vet dungeons in dropped gear, not if you want to make a worthy contribution to the completion of it.

    What build are you trying to create i.e the sets and we may be able to help you find them or depending on your platform someone could craft them for you.
  • finehair
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    You can make decent builds with only crafted sets+ 2 piece of monster.
    And there are no meta stuff in pvp. If you know what you are doing you can even work with adept rider set.

    Okay maybe not with adept rider set but you get the idea.
  • Vevvev
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    You can also buy a lot of the PVP sets from guild traders.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • CMDR_Un1k0rn
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    There is a lot more variety in PvP builds. Far, far more.

    Remember. PvP is very different to PvE. Nothing is static. No enemy is the same.

    You cannot expect one build to work on everything. Because it won't. And if you don't have the skill, you won't get anywhere regardless.

    That is why I find PvP far more enjoyable. You can't just read a guide and know it all.
    In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
    THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    There is a lot more variety in PvP builds. Far, far more.

    Remember. PvP is very different to PvE. Nothing is static. No enemy is the same.

    You cannot expect one build to work on everything. Because it won't. And if you don't have the skill, you won't get anywhere regardless.

    That is why I find PvP far more enjoyable. You can't just read a guide and know it all.

    I haven’t played ESO in a few months but my thousands of hours of ESO PVP experience agree with this philosophy.

    If you want to be a healer, DPS or tank for a dungeon you should equip gear to be an A+ at that role and an F in any of the others. But ... if you want to play ESO PVP you’re often best suited applying gear that will make you a B+ at all of them instead.
  • ImmortalCX
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    I dont think you guys are getting what I'm saying.

    A new player can queue for a dungeon with just the gear that he found and be successful.

    If same beginner queues for BG or cyrodil he will get wrecked.

    A beginner doesn't know about looking up builds online and may not even be in a guild. He probably doesnt have enough gold or mats to build a PVE set and a PVP set. There is a knowledge, gold, and time gap.

    This is not a problem for dungeons because you can complete them with pretty much anything you are wearing. Tank just needs a taunt and a shield. DPS can one bar mash buttons and pass normal dungeons. Same is not true of PVP. And the degree of failure is much more than just wiping to a boss. You get owned in every matchup unless you are part of a zerg.

    My point is that beginners have a horrible experience with PVP if they just queue up to try it out. If there was a bright flashing neon sign that said "equip this gear, you will have a chance", then they might actually enjoy it and lead to more people wanting to PVP.

    I should have predicted that PCPers wouldnt like an "ez botton" option. It would actually reduce or eliminate the undergeared clowns you can mop up. It would take that little bit of enjoyment away from you.
  • ItsJustHashtag
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    A beginner should get wrecked in pvp. We’ve all been there before as beginners into pvp. When I first went to cyrodiil my build was 5 hundings, 3 agility, and various monster sets. All easily obtained. Just make sure you have the right traits for the gear. It’s now easier than ever to get master/maelstrom weapons to add to a simple build as listed above. There is also new moon Acolyte which is craftable.

    Vs AI in pve makes sense as long as you know mechanics with just any gear you pick up. But other people aren’t AI so it’s honestly a l2p issue. Just practice, study YouTube pvp videos, and get experience. The BiS type gear will fall into place as you earn AP and can purchase boxes for that build at towns and the gates.
    Edited by ItsJustHashtag on June 8, 2020 4:14PM
  • Lady_Linux
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    if it were possible to do as you ask, in a couple of months you'd be back posting about why pvp gear is too easy to get.
    I simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.

    BTW, I use arch too
  • relentless_turnip
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    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    I dont think you guys are getting what I'm saying.

    A new player can queue for a dungeon with just the gear that he found and be successful.

    If same beginner queues for BG or cyrodil he will get wrecked.

    A beginner doesn't know about looking up builds online and may not even be in a guild. He probably doesnt have enough gold or mats to build a PVE set and a PVP set. There is a knowledge, gold, and time gap.

    This is not a problem for dungeons because you can complete them with pretty much anything you are wearing. Tank just needs a taunt and a shield. DPS can one bar mash buttons and pass normal dungeons. Same is not true of PVP. And the degree of failure is much more than just wiping to a boss. You get owned in every matchup unless you are part of a zerg.

    My point is that beginners have a horrible experience with PVP if they just queue up to try it out. If there was a bright flashing neon sign that said "equip this gear, you will have a chance", then they might actually enjoy it and lead to more people wanting to PVP.

    I should have predicted that PCPers wouldnt like an "ez botton" option. It would actually reduce or eliminate the undergeared clowns you can mop up. It would take that little bit of enjoyment away from you.

    I have been playing 18 months and mainly PvP, so yeah I do not what you are saying.

    Why would you be good at something you know nothing about? I had to research what I was doing. Like what crit resist is, how mitigation works, how healing modifiers stack etc... I think the difference is I expected to get stomped at every attempt until I "got gud". I don't know your background so I can't comment on your expectations too much, but I had played plenty of MMOs prior to this and understood there would be a knowledge/skill gap.

    Good bunch of people generally in ESO, that will help you build if you ask. But when you are given an "OP" build I can guarantee it won't make you succeed. Dying and learning from it will though, that is the greater challenge and will ultimately make you successful.

    There isn't actually any endgame content you can walk into and thrive. Normal dungeons yes, but there is no way for them to make an easy PvP mode for you. You will be matched with other characters of your same experience (MMR) but beyond that you need to learn what you are doing, this is the case with all MMOs.
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    Back in my day we’d go into PVP at level 10 with unmatched gear and not even enough skills to fill a bar while fighting against VR14 PC transfers who could melt you with a thought.

    If you weren’t around for console launch then you have no idea how lopsided PVP actually was at one point. These days it’s a veritable candyland by comparison.
  • MincVinyl
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    @ImmortalCX PvP has little to no barriers to entry especially with the recent trait changes with impen running divines is easily viable. As for sets, unless you want to really do some theory crafted 1% build you can be effective just using crafted sets like New Moon Acolyte, Stuhn's, Seducer, Critical Riposte, Spell Parasite, Clever alch.

    I'm a 6 year player that has almost exclusively played pvp and I can assure you there is no reason you can't be near Bis within an hour or two of crafting.

    Common trends for Bis efficient statwise build:
    All armor triglyphs
    Infused jewelry with weapon damage or arcane spell damage/recov
    infused body on head/chest/legs
    Impen/divines on shoulder/gloves/waist/boots
    Use bewitched sugar skulls(rather cheap and beyond worth it)

    5/1/1 armor weight is best when possible and with above choices(very possible with crafted gear)
    Remember chest gives the most armor so try to make it heavy
    shoulder/helm/pants/boots is 2nd for armor given
    gloves is 3rd
    waist is 4th
    Heavy setup example> medium gloves, light waist, heavy on everything else.
    Medium setup> Heavy chest, light waist, medium everything else
    Sometimes this efficiency must be broken because of noncrafted gear, so commonly monster sets are used to get 5/1/1

    Generally heavy armor is vastly better than medium (haven't tested how light compares in a while to be confident to tell you)
    Monster sets are kinda up in the air right now, but generally you can google to see what people might be running on your class

    Ability wise, my advice is to look up a few 1vX videos and see what class/weapon abilities people are commonly using and figure out why. Also note that most people wont run 3 different executes or 2 different gap closers. EVERY ability slot matters as much as slotting a 5 piece gear bonus. For instance if I drop a gap closer and make smart movement choices I can slot something like camo hunter to get major savagery and minor berserk.
    This is all assuming you are planning on progressing to become a good pvper. If you plan on large scale grouping and never testing yourself skill/mechanic wise, most of this wont matter. In larger scale groups an ideal build would be more geared to straight damage like in pve. For instance you would not run tristats, instead you would run stam/mag. Instead of Sugar skulls you could run max health/ max stat food. Instead of running heals you could run more damage buff abilities. These choices would inevitably cause any equal skilled solo/1vX player to most likely kill you in a 1v1. Chances are anyone who you come across these days that can still run solo will most likely be a brand new player that doesn't know better, or someone who is capable of surviving against outrageous amounts of players through lag on their build at their skill level.
  • ShawnLaRock
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    My first MYM I specifically put together my first gear set for PVP - and what did I choose? Hatchling’s Shell. Lol. Yup - I was the guy skidding into town to do the little dailies with a big, bright blue bubble around me that you could see coming for miles on the horizon.

    Was it a total gong-show? You bet! Did I get absolutely clapped? OMG, yuuuuup. But was it one of the most exhilarating and fun experiences I had ever had in ESO? Unequivocally.

    The point is - it was ME who thought it out and put the chosen gear together. I didn’t read any guides or buy any sets. This way - with a bit of trial and error - I learned to tweak it based on my specifics.

    I think your whole premise is a bit ahead of itself / backwards. If you are new to PVP, why are you considering BUYING anything? Just jump in and see where you land. The gear you farm from just being there IS part of a PVP set already.

    If you are paying money for gear before you even know what your particular strengths, weaknesses, and needs are - then you are doing in backwards, IMHO.

    S.

    Edit: context
    Edited by ShawnLaRock on June 8, 2020 5:10PM
  • Kalik_Gold
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    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    The barrier for entry to PVP is getting geared. A good meta pvp set will cost 500K gold or more. Finding this information means going to alcast and looking for a build.

    The observation is that you can run PVE dungeons and have success with pretty much any set you find. (The DLC and veteran dungeons may require a little more thought, but the sets are not expensive.) But the same is not true of PVP. If you attempt pvp as a new(poor) player with found gear, they will wipe the floor with you.

    Maybe this exists, but there should be a bright flashing neon sign that says "Equip this gear and you will have a good time", with prices a novice can afford, without having to collect pvp currency. Of course they wouldn't be meta, but they would keep people alive.

    500k nah, you are chasing YT builds.
    Main Character:
    Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige

    PvP Pure-class:
    Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
    Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
    Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer

    PvP: Subclassed or Specialty
    Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer (Tank)
    Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer (Healer)
    Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade (Bomber)
    Two-Big-Horns an Argonian Arcanist /Sorcerer
    Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden (Ice-Theme)

    PvE:
    Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight (Tank)
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar (Healer)
    Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Redguard** Dragonknight (Raid Damage) --- Name change needed

    PvE: Specialty
    Tyrus Septim an Imperial Sorcerer (Dungeon Damage)
    Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden (Arenas)
    Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade (Thief)

    Leveling...
    Styx of Akatosh a Goblin*** Arcanist --- Race change needed
    Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Lycan Sorcerer
    Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
    ======
    Passives of another race used:
    *Breton
    **Imperial
    ***Argonian




    __________________________Backstories:_________________________

    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.

    Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.

    Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...

    Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.

    The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.

    Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.

    After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.

    After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...

    Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.

    Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.

    {time moves forward through the hour-glass}
    PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant
  • SpacemanSpiff1
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    just craft gear. or grab some overland. there are plenty of useful and easily obtainable sets.
  • MincVinyl
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    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    I dont think you guys are getting what I'm saying.

    A new player can queue for a dungeon with just the gear that he found and be successful.

    If same beginner queues for BG or cyrodil he will get wrecked.

    A beginner doesn't know about looking up builds online and may not even be in a guild. He probably doesnt have enough gold or mats to build a PVE set and a PVP set. There is a knowledge, gold, and time gap.

    This is not a problem for dungeons because you can complete them with pretty much anything you are wearing. Tank just needs a taunt and a shield. DPS can one bar mash buttons and pass normal dungeons. Same is not true of PVP. And the degree of failure is much more than just wiping to a boss. You get owned in every matchup unless you are part of a zerg.

    My point is that beginners have a horrible experience with PVP if they just queue up to try it out. If there was a bright flashing neon sign that said "equip this gear, you will have a chance", then they might actually enjoy it and lead to more people wanting to PVP.

    I should have predicted that PCPers wouldnt like an "ez botton" option. It would actually reduce or eliminate the undergeared clowns you can mop up. It would take that little bit of enjoyment away from you.

    In terms of this statement,

    In PvE the content is at whatever level you play it. For instance new players can find themselves in normal dungeons and do fine without gear. However this wont cut it for vet dungeons or normal trials. Then the next stage is vet dlc dungeons and vet trials. Then the next stage is vet+ trials.

    In PvP the only steps of this kind to cater to lower tiers of players is how absurdly strong groups of players are now adays. If a newer player doesn't want to run into better players they must avoid them. Player versus Player generally implies that you are to be matched against another opponent to see who is better. When you lose, no matter to how different the skill gap was, there is always something to learn. What hinders people is when they blame everyone other than themselves. No matter the situation there was always one action/choice you could have made that would have let you survive longer or out burst the enemy.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Honestly?

    Grab yourself some Impen gear and go PVP.

    You're gonna die a lot no matter what gear you wear because you just don't know what you are doing when you are new. Impen just helps you not die the second someone looks at you funny. The "meta" gear won't help you have a good time. The only thing that will really help is a good attitude about dying repeatedly while you learn.

    My first "PVP set" was impen Plague Doctor. On a healer. It sucked in terms of the meta, but it let me survive long enough to figure out what was killing me. :lol:
  • gatekeeper13
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    In PvP the only steps of this kind to cater to lower tiers of players is how absurdly strong groups of players are now adays. If a newer player doesn't want to run into better players they must avoid them. Player versus Player generally implies that you are to be matched against another opponent to see who is better. When you lose, no matter to how different the skill gap was, there is always something to learn. What hinders people is when they blame everyone other than themselves. No matter the situation there was always one action/choice you could have made that would have let you survive longer or out burst the enemy.


    Totally agree with what your wrote. But there are circumstances where I don't know what I can learn or do. E.g. I have a glass cannon bow nightblade (and only bow), full divines and faced a tanky stamina DK today. I was as buffed as I good be, had around 5.2K weapon dmg and 7.000 penetration and attacked him first with Toxic Barrage. Result? He didnt even drop below 80% of his health. Then I went on to use everything I got till I run out of stamina and got killed. He just wouldnt go below 80-70% health. And not only that but he also recovered his lost health immediately.

    I know that bow builds are not strong enough on themselves or ideal for 1v1 but Jesus Christ.... How can I surpass so much dmg mitigation? Some builds are insanely tanky, imho. So tanky it makes no sense...

    Edited by gatekeeper13 on June 8, 2020 5:15PM
  • ImmortalCX
    ImmortalCX
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    I dont think you guys are getting what I'm saying.

    A new player can queue for a dungeon with just the gear that he found and be successful.

    If same beginner queues for BG or cyrodil he will get wrecked.

    A beginner doesn't know about looking up builds online and may not even be in a guild. He probably doesnt have enough gold or mats to build a PVE set and a PVP set. There is a knowledge, gold, and time gap.

    This is not a problem for dungeons because you can complete them with pretty much anything you are wearing. Tank just needs a taunt and a shield. DPS can one bar mash buttons and pass normal dungeons. Same is not true of PVP. And the degree of failure is much more than just wiping to a boss. You get owned in every matchup unless you are part of a zerg.

    My point is that beginners have a horrible experience with PVP if they just queue up to try it out. If there was a bright flashing neon sign that said "equip this gear, you will have a chance", then they might actually enjoy it and lead to more people wanting to PVP.

    I should have predicted that PCPers wouldnt like an "ez botton" option. It would actually reduce or eliminate the undergeared clowns you can mop up. It would take that little bit of enjoyment away from you.

    In terms of this statement,

    In PvE the content is at whatever level you play it. For instance new players can find themselves in normal dungeons and do fine without gear. However this wont cut it for vet dungeons or normal trials. Then the next stage is vet dlc dungeons and vet trials. Then the next stage is vet+ trials.

    In PvP the only steps of this kind to cater to lower tiers of players is how absurdly strong groups of players are now adays. If a newer player doesn't want to run into better players they must avoid them. Player versus Player generally implies that you are to be matched against another opponent to see who is better. When you lose, no matter to how different the skill gap was, there is always something to learn. What hinders people is when they blame everyone other than themselves. No matter the situation there was always one action/choice you could have made that would have let you survive longer or out burst the enemy.

    At least half of the difference between new and experienced pvper is gear.

    New players should have an option where they can equip some heavy armor with stam regen and decent damage stats, so they can survive and learn. They will get 2x 5pc bonuses. It should be almost free (or free).
  • ImmortalCX
    ImmortalCX
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    @ImmortalCX PvP has little to no barriers to entry especially with the recent trait changes with impen running divines is easily viable. As for sets, unless you want to really do some theory crafted 1% build you can be effective just using crafted sets like New Moon Acolyte, Stuhn's, Seducer, Critical Riposte, Spell Parasite, Clever alch.

    I'm a 6 year player that has almost exclusively played pvp and I can assure you there is no reason you can't be near Bis within an hour or two of crafting.
    .

    That is IF you have a stack of gold and mats from playing for 6+ months. And thats IF you have the knowlege to do this. And are in a high level guild with crafters.

    Running dungeons doesnt have any of these barriers.

  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    Honestly?

    Grab yourself some Impen gear and go PVP.

    You're gonna die a lot no matter what gear you wear because you just don't know what you are doing when you are new. Impen just helps you not die the second someone looks at you funny. The "meta" gear won't help you have a good time. The only thing that will really help is a good attitude about dying repeatedly while you learn.

    My first "PVP set" was impen Plague Doctor. On a healer. It sucked in terms of the meta, but it let me survive long enough to figure out what was killing me. :lol:

    This is good advice but there is also the other option ... just embracing that you’re gonna die a ridiculous amount regardless so just equip as much damage as you can and take some people down with you!

    There really is not that much of a difference in survivability between being a glass cannon and a tank when faced with insurmountable odds like what happens all too frequently in Cyrodiil. In a 1 on 1 situation, yes, what you said is FAR BETTER advice then what I’m saying, but if you’re out numbered 30-1 you’re going to die anyway. May as well take 2 people with you was always my philosophy!
  • Nord_Raseri
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    I've been running Hundings on one of my builds for three years. Hundings is easily obtainable. Just need to craft or have someone craft. You will get wrecked in the beginning . A lot. No matter what gear you are running.
    Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.
  • gp1680
    gp1680
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    I died a lot and killed very little when I started out in PvP. Had nothing to do with the sets I was wearing. 175k kills later, I still die a lot and it has nothing to do with what sets I’m wearing. Sets are just part of the equation. Just jump into PvP, learn to die well and learn from it each time. Try different sets until you find the build that works for you. Then start your kill counts...😁
  • blendertoes
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    ImmortalCX wrote: »

    New players should have an option where they can equip some heavy armor with stam regen and decent damage stats, so they can survive and learn. They will get 2x 5pc bonuses. It should be almost free (or free).

    Shacklebreaker and Bone Pirate. The first is crafted and the other drops in medium in Blackheart Haven. If you want 5 heavy, farm BP weapons and jewelry and craft heavy Shacklebreaker body pieces. Make sure to run Dubious Camoran Throne drink to activate the BP five piece effect. When you get comfortable, swap in Clever Alchemist in place of Shacklebreaker for more offensive power.

  • NupidStoob
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    You could give beginners complete meta builds and access to 810 CP right away and they would still get rekt when they go PvP. There is no way to lower the difficulty and giving crutches doesn't teach someone how to play either. You simply can not expect to be on even footing with someone who has done the same things hundreds of hours more.

    Comparing PvP to PvE doesn't make sense either as like I said you might end up fighting someone who has hundreds of hours more experience than you. The PvE equivalent would not be to queue some normal dungeon, but being put into a raidgroup with halfway experienced raiders and expecting you could somehow keep up with them.
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
    THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    In PvP the only steps of this kind to cater to lower tiers of players is how absurdly strong groups of players are now adays. If a newer player doesn't want to run into better players they must avoid them. Player versus Player generally implies that you are to be matched against another opponent to see who is better. When you lose, no matter to how different the skill gap was, there is always something to learn. What hinders people is when they blame everyone other than themselves. No matter the situation there was always one action/choice you could have made that would have let you survive longer or out burst the enemy.


    Totally agree with what your wrote. But there are circumstances where I don't know what I can learn or do. E.g. I have a glass cannon bow nightblade (and only bow), full divines and faced a tanky stamina DK today. I was as buffed as I good be, had around 5.2K weapon dmg and 7.000 penetration and attacked him first with Toxic Barrage. Result? He didnt even drop below 80% of his health. Then I went on to use everything I got till I run out of stamina and got killed. He just wouldnt go below 80-70% health. And not only that but he also recovered his lost health immediately.

    I know that bow builds are not strong enough on themselves or ideal for 1v1 but Jesus Christ.... How can I surpass so much dmg mitigation? Some builds are insanely tanky, imho. So tanky it makes no sense...

    Let me help you here.

    No matter what you do, no matter how you gear your toon, there will ALWAYS be a small number of tanks you simply cannot kill. I know this because my main is a Templar that has for years been specked to the highest damage output that I could mathematically figure out. At times I’d have more than 60,000 magic with commensurate spell damage. Even then, despite having potentially the strongest radiant oppression on XBox there were still people I could not kill. It’s not uncommon to see these tanks running around a tree with 9 people chasing them ineffectively. When I’d see that 90% of the time I’d be the person who would strike the killing blow because I was essentially the only person dumb enough to ignore all advice and go with an uber-glass cannon.

    Even then ... occasionally there would still be tanks that I couldn’t kill. Now imagine if you’re running a meta set or a set with any reasonable amount of defense like you probably should. Do you think you could end that tank when I couldn’t? It’s unlikely since you’re playing the way your “supposed to” and I’m not, while I also have thousands of hours of PVP experience to fall back on.

    Anyway, in those cases ... just walk away. They can’t hurt you. All they can do is distract you. It sounds silly but a PVP tank in Cyrodiil is only as useful as you allow them to be. Just kill the guy who is behind them, who is generally a healer.

    TLDR - don’t waste time trying to kill tanks
    Edited by THEDKEXPERIENCE on June 8, 2020 5:37PM
  • ketsparrowhawk
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    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    I dont think you guys are getting what I'm saying.

    A new player can queue for a dungeon with just the gear that he found and be successful.

    If same beginner queues for BG or cyrodil he will get wrecked.

    A beginner doesn't know about looking up builds online and may not even be in a guild. He probably doesnt have enough gold or mats to build a PVE set and a PVP set. There is a knowledge, gold, and time gap.

    This is not a problem for dungeons because you can complete them with pretty much anything you are wearing. Tank just needs a taunt and a shield. DPS can one bar mash buttons and pass normal dungeons. Same is not true of PVP. And the degree of failure is much more than just wiping to a boss. You get owned in every matchup unless you are part of a zerg.

    My point is that beginners have a horrible experience with PVP if they just queue up to try it out. If there was a bright flashing neon sign that said "equip this gear, you will have a chance", then they might actually enjoy it and lead to more people wanting to PVP.

    I should have predicted that PCPers wouldnt like an "ez botton" option. It would actually reduce or eliminate the undergeared clowns you can mop up. It would take that little bit of enjoyment away from you.

    Gear won't make any difference in this scenario. A new player can equip nothing but fully gold BiS gear and still get flattened the moment their toe touches the ground in a BG if they don't know what they're doing. It's the nature of fighting against other players with a huge variety of different build types. You can't expect to be successful right out of the gate. That's an unreasonable expectation.

    Weird that PvPers would chime in on a PvP topic.
    Edited by ketsparrowhawk on June 8, 2020 5:44PM
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    The barrier for entry to PVP is getting geared. A good meta pvp set will cost 500K gold or more. Finding this information means going to alcast and looking for a build.

    The observation is that you can run PVE dungeons and have success with pretty much any set you find. (The DLC and veteran dungeons may require a little more thought, but the sets are not expensive.) But the same is not true of PVP. If you attempt pvp as a new(poor) player with found gear, they will wipe the floor with you.

    Maybe this exists, but there should be a bright flashing neon sign that says "Equip this gear and you will have a good time", with prices a novice can afford, without having to collect pvp currency. Of course they wouldn't be meta, but they would keep people alive.

    The first time you attempt PVP, any competent player will wipe the floor with you. It has nothing to do with gear. The gear you need to compete in PVE comes from trials. The gear you need to compete in PVP comes from just about anywherenand there are plenty of options. I run my mag sorc with a crafted set and a dropped set that I paid less than 100k for all the pieces.

    As is very common, inexperienced players always believe gear is the end all be all. It is not.
  • MincVinyl
    MincVinyl
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    MincVinyl wrote: »
    In PvP the only steps of this kind to cater to lower tiers of players is how absurdly strong groups of players are now adays. If a newer player doesn't want to run into better players they must avoid them. Player versus Player generally implies that you are to be matched against another opponent to see who is better. When you lose, no matter to how different the skill gap was, there is always something to learn. What hinders people is when they blame everyone other than themselves. No matter the situation there was always one action/choice you could have made that would have let you survive longer or out burst the enemy.


    Totally agree with what your wrote. But there are circumstances where I don't know what I can learn or do. E.g. I have a glass cannon bow nightblade (and only bow), full divines and faced a tanky stamina DK today. I was as buffed as I good be, had around 5.2K weapon dmg and 7.000 penetration and attacked him first with Toxic Barrage. Result? He didnt even drop below 80% of his health. Then I went on to use everything I got till I run out of stamina and got killed. He just wouldnt go below 80-70% health. And not only that but he also recovered his lost health immediately.

    I know that bow builds are not strong enough on themselves or ideal for 1v1 but Jesus Christ.... How can I surpass so much dmg mitigation? Some builds are insanely tanky, imho. So tanky it makes no sense...
    So when looking to progress try to figure out what aspect is hindering you. Build? meta? abilities? skill? At a certain point if it feels like you are not improving, one of these factors is limiting you. Maybe there is a set of gear that would give you a slightly better 1% advantage that lets your skill continue progressing. Maybe running a terrible race is limiting how your stats compare against someone elses, so they are always 1% better than you.

    Without a vid it is hard for me to help you skill wise, which I guarantee there are problems there. Then of course having 5.2k wd and 7k pen does not mean you should insta kill targets. I have those stats on my build that has kept me alive when outnumbered 15-20+ people in lag. For progressing purposes I would suggest eliminating the Build? and Abilities? by finding a better player than you and trying to run what they run. Problem is, most people that are at the end level can't really stream PvP anymore so it is harder to find that info without directly just asking/talking with people.

    There is a disparity between classes for sure, some are just garbage right now due to the meta and how zos has changed them over the years. The bottom tier is generally widely accepted as (mag/stamblade and then stamsorc following) with the top tier as (stamcro by far, followed by stamden/magsorc) However I wouldn't focus on being upset about this aspect since there is not much you can do about it anyways. This wont become a problem till you reach true endgame pvp, where there is nothing else for you to learn/improve on.
    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    MincVinyl wrote: »
    ImmortalCX wrote: »
    I dont think you guys are getting what I'm saying.

    A new player can queue for a dungeon with just the gear that he found and be successful.

    If same beginner queues for BG or cyrodil he will get wrecked.

    A beginner doesn't know about looking up builds online and may not even be in a guild. He probably doesnt have enough gold or mats to build a PVE set and a PVP set. There is a knowledge, gold, and time gap.

    This is not a problem for dungeons because you can complete them with pretty much anything you are wearing. Tank just needs a taunt and a shield. DPS can one bar mash buttons and pass normal dungeons. Same is not true of PVP. And the degree of failure is much more than just wiping to a boss. You get owned in every matchup unless you are part of a zerg.

    My point is that beginners have a horrible experience with PVP if they just queue up to try it out. If there was a bright flashing neon sign that said "equip this gear, you will have a chance", then they might actually enjoy it and lead to more people wanting to PVP.

    I should have predicted that PCPers wouldnt like an "ez botton" option. It would actually reduce or eliminate the undergeared clowns you can mop up. It would take that little bit of enjoyment away from you.

    In terms of this statement,

    In PvE the content is at whatever level you play it. For instance new players can find themselves in normal dungeons and do fine without gear. However this wont cut it for vet dungeons or normal trials. Then the next stage is vet dlc dungeons and vet trials. Then the next stage is vet+ trials.

    In PvP the only steps of this kind to cater to lower tiers of players is how absurdly strong groups of players are now adays. If a newer player doesn't want to run into better players they must avoid them. Player versus Player generally implies that you are to be matched against another opponent to see who is better. When you lose, no matter to how different the skill gap was, there is always something to learn. What hinders people is when they blame everyone other than themselves. No matter the situation there was always one action/choice you could have made that would have let you survive longer or out burst the enemy.

    At least half of the difference between new and experienced pvper is gear.

    New players should have an option where they can equip some heavy armor with stam regen and decent damage stats, so they can survive and learn. They will get 2x 5pc bonuses. It should be almost free (or free).

    For certain more experience players who have put in hundreds of hours of testing every patch on the pts, and those who have spent 6 years accumulating gear will be better off statwise. It is not true that a newer player cannot get within competition range of a veteran player's build. Monster sets are not that hard to farm within a week. The crafted gear available is near Bis statwise, to the point that alot of people are running crafted sets now.

    New players should not have an option, they already have a choice to do what you said. If someone comes in not knowing how to pvp with a glass cannon build, do not expect to kill anything just because you think you have damage. I always suggest that newer players build tankier than they expect, and then as they learn to just simply survive try to add damage into the build. For instance as a vet might be able to run 900 stam recov, but a newer player will just run out of stam and will die. So I would suggest that the newer player runs stam recovery mundus/glyphs instead of weapon damage.

    Running in and dying does not help much, so in a way if you can live slightly longer you will in the end gain more pvp experience. Nightblade is always a draw to newer players, which in a way if you can learn when to call it quits on a fight you always have an option to cloak and leave instead of dying and running back. It does suck though that Nightblade has been forced into a terrible light attack gimick pigeon hole, so without playing into that there will be a disadvantage.
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