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New trial sets are disappointing
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YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »How do you expect to sell the new expansion if you don't make good trial sets?
I am not arguing about the trial sets. However, I do question the premise the OP opened with.
I do not raid to get geared out. I raid because I enjoy the group challenge of doing well with clearing the content. Even when the gear is desirable I am still raising well after I have more of the new gear than I need.
In other words, I do not see the point in raiding for gear that is only useful in PvE instanced content as one of the set bonuses does not useful outside of instanced PvE content.
I definitely think that this is your own idiosyncratic take.
Most people don't do trials for the sheer joy of the experience, they do them for a tangible reward, be that a skin, title or, most likely, a new piece of gear that is useful for them in some in-game pursuit.
The fact that this trial doesn't have much of anything useful for the great majority of players is a major flaw. This is evidenced by the fact that Sunspire and Cloudrest groups are still going strong in Craglorn whereas even now you seldomly see groups for Kyne's. And the trial is only a week old. Say what one will about Craglorn groups, but that's a useful proxy for judging the appeal of a trial to the casual raiding community (and most raiders are, of course, casual raiders).
It is interesting to contrast ZOS' stated rationale for upping the Maelstrom rewards ("few people do it, we want more people to engage with the content") versus the meager scraps that they have provided with Kyne's. In a trial chock-a-block full of metaphorical Nahviintas sets, one wonders if they will, at some point, re-visit this folly and give the trial sets that players will actually run to gear up their alts? As it is, most will get their token clear and sundry progression achievements and not look back.5 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »MrBrownstone wrote: »How do you expect to sell the new expansion if you don't make good trial sets?
I am not arguing about the trial sets. However, I do question the premise the OP opened with.
I do not raid to get geared out. I raid because I enjoy the group challenge of doing well with clearing the content. Even when the gear is desirable I am still raising well after I have more of the new gear than I need.
In other words, I do not see the point in raiding for gear that is only useful in PvE instanced content as one of the set bonuses does not useful outside of instanced PvE content.
I definitely think that this is your own idiosyncratic take.
Most people don't do trials for the sheer joy of the experience, they do them for a tangible reward, be that a skin, title or, most likely, a new piece of gear that is useful for them in some in-game pursuit.
The fact that this trial doesn't have much of anything useful for the great majority of players is a major flaw. This is evidenced by the fact that Sunspire and Cloudrest groups are still going strong in Craglorn whereas even now you seldomly see groups for Kyne's. And the trial is only a week old. Say what one will about Craglorn groups, but that's a useful proxy for judging the appeal of a trial to the casual raiding community (and most raiders are, of course, casual raiders).
It is interesting to contrast ZOS' stated rationale for upping the Maelstrom rewards ("few people do it, we want more people to engage with the content") versus the meager scraps that they have provided with Kyne's. In a trial chock-a-block full of metaphorical Nahviintas sets, one wonders if they will, at some point, re-visit this folly and give the trial sets that players will actually run to gear up their alts? As it is, most will get their token clear and sundry progression achievements and not look back.
That's pretty much how it is, good content alone won;t give players enough of an incentive to run the trials over and over, and kyne isn't even superior to the other trials, so it's just left out.
People can make the argument about "but you should do it only because it's fun" Yea i'm gonna do it once or twice to see how it is and that's it, it's a good reward structure that keeps you doing the content, this is just a fact, and people can sit here and pretend it isn't but it's true. A good reward structure is as important as good content.
And this is exactly why there are a lot more ss or cr trials going on than kyne. Because people run kyne or craglorn trials pretty much only when they wanna do the content outside of getting rewards, which does not happen that often. Sometimes you just wake up and think, i wanna do this old trial just because, but it doesn't happen that often, most of the times it's the rewards that keeps you doing it, and the better the content the less you get burned out, so don't get any ideas zos that only rewards matter, because it's not true.
And this is why it's important to make new sets at least as strong as the previous ones.
Edited by JinMori on June 4, 2020 11:47PM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »How do you expect to sell the new expansion if you don't make good trial sets?
I am not arguing about the trial sets. However, I do question the premise the OP opened with.
I do not raid to get geared out. I raid because I enjoy the group challenge of doing well with clearing the content. Even when the gear is desirable I am still raising well after I have more of the new gear than I need.
In other words, I do not see the point in raiding for gear that is only useful in PvE instanced content as one of the set bonuses does not useful outside of instanced PvE content.
Bad sets greatly impact the replayability of content, that's just a fact, why do you think that people still run certain dungeons or trials more than others? It's because better gear, good content is important, but you need a good reward to go with it, otherwise people will not play it for long.
Just consider this, look at how few kyne's aegis trial groups there are compared to ss or cr, ON RELEASE, just absolutely insane. The preferences of players are evident, and it doesn't even look like kyne's aegis is such a good raid, so....
The trial serious raiders pay the most attention to is the newest dungeon. Considering they keep raiding that trial heavily well after they get the gear it is clear the gear is not the driving factor. Improving one's score to jump ahead of another team and getting achievements are the driving factors.
Yes, sometimes there is gear farming of older dungeons, especially the ones that have gear other than actual trial gear, but that is secondary with serious raiders. Also, some groups are not able to clear the newer content so they go for the older content. That is normal and ok.
Ofc, bad sets affect farm runs in normal mode for that gear but focused and serious raiding.0 -
UGotBenched91✭✭✭✭✭So I have to jump in here and add the fact most trial sets look bad. This is one of my favorite MMOS that does a lot right but you dropped the ball eith the way armor and weapons look. They are bland and unappealing. The game relies way too much on the outfit system and dyes to cover up the bland designs. If I grind the new trial I want good gear that also looks good. I saw the design. Putting a bat on something doesn’t make it look good.Edited by UGotBenched91 on June 5, 2020 12:17AM0
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Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only 1 out of 4 Kyne’s Aegis sets is going to be used - Roaring Opportunist. The build is as follows:
Nightblade Healer
• 5x Roaring Opportunity
• 5x Jorvuld’s Guidance
• Frontbar Master Restoration Staff
• Backbar vMA Inferno Staff
Spec a ton of CPs into Direct Damage, Staff Heavy Attacks, and Spell Critical Damage. Grab the Shadow Mundus. Use an Inferno Staff Heavy Attack and then immediately cast Shadowy Disguise to gain 100% Spell Critical Chance.
As long as all of the typical trial target debuffs are being kept up, you can consistently provide 17 SECONDS OF MAJOR SLAYER TO YOUR GROUP. The set cooldown is 22 seconds.
So there’s a new BiS set which is based around really dumb gameplay and will trash HoFs sets and probably Lokke too (at least in trials). Pretty sure the groups on PC are already starting to adopt this setup since it’s the obvious optimal way to gain Major Slayer now in trials.
Edited by Vaoh on June 5, 2020 12:31AM3 -
MrBrownstone✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »MrBrownstone wrote: »I haven't seen anyone looking for Kyne's Aegis in Craglorn yet, everyone is still doing Sunspire and Cloudrest. You only managed to make one good set, a support set which was supposed to be a dd set and failed.
If this is true, then are people doing trials just for gear? Not achievements? Satisfaction? Fun of doing trials?
Might as well stop making new trials. Gear can be locked behind any content -- even fishing -- so the need for trials to gatekeep gear is unnecessary.
If you wanted to argue that the new trial wasn't fun -- that's a much more valid discussion.
Yes dude, like pointed above, yes, it's evident, most people run content for gear. I'm not one of them, my favorite content in this game is DLC hard modes and i play them for fun. I also still play Asylum Sanctorium despite the weapons being gutted because it's my favorite trial.
However this doesn't change the facts. You and i might be playing content for fun but most of the playerbase join Sunspire and Cloudrest to farm gear.
Yes i don't get it either, i mean why are you even farming gear if you're not planning to use it in a content you play for fun but I'm not here to criticize the playerbase, it's their choice. I'm criticizing ZoS.
And no, i don't want BiS gear. I only want more useful gear. Let's say, maybe the Magicka version of Tzogvin so I can get rid of Mother's Sorrow. Sorrow would still be BiS but the new set would be very close.
Currently you can use Siroria, Mother's Sorrow, Elemental Succession, False God on Magicka. Relequen, Tzogvin, Vicious Ophidian, Lokkestiiz, Advancing Yokeda, Deadly Strikes on Stamina. They're really close dps-wise and some of them are only suitable for specific content. I just want more variety, that's why I want more sets. There will always be BiS but it's not that hard to make sets that are worth using.
And don't get me started on healer & tank sets. There are tons of useful sets, there is no BiS. Look at Hollowfang and Zen, healers get meta sets even from dungeons. I don't want the BiS gear replaced every patch, I just want more dd sets worth using.Edited by MrBrownstone on June 5, 2020 1:12AM0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »Yes dude, like pointed above, yes, it's evident, most people run content for gear.
Let's ASSUME that your premise is true -- that "most" people run content for gear. (Forum is not "most people", BTW).
If that were the case, then it is even MORE important that new expansions STOP presenting new gear that is too clearly BIS or "more useful" or "recommended by content creators" or whatever.
Those "most people" would stop running the previous trials for no-longer-recommended gear and then there will be even more issues, like dead content, people not wanting to run earlier trials, the game becoming too easy with constant increments of "more useful gear" when the game is level synced everywhere. There would be trickle-down effects to the rest of the game, not just trials.
You cite Sunspire and Cloudrest. If it's too hard to find groups for other trials, then that clearly shows the symptoms of this problem. Same with Kyne's not being popular. So don't make the situation worse or simply shift it to another trial.
Gear that is too clearly "better" with every Chapter is extremely short-sighted and damaging to the game over the long run and for newcomers as well. Remember that One Tamriel means we don't have the same level gating that traditional models use to manage power creep. And without overhauling the level sync, they can't keep the challenge level up in older content / older trials to accommodate ever increasingly "better" gear, even gear that is niche-better if that niche has too many farming applications.
Niche gear would be a better solution but still tricky. Gear that supports power fantasy without necessarily tweaking numbers would be safe too (i.e., only cosmetically different from something we already have).Edited by Dusk_Coven on June 5, 2020 1:47AM0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bis is not required.
Trial for fun tho.
Most would agree that we don’t need BiS. If the only compliment is “Trial for fun” though then it’s called a failure.
vSS had powerful, fun sets. Cost reduction and Speed+Mag Return for kills, Major Slayer on synergies, Minor Courage on block.... we liked these. Notice how no one farmed to use Nahviintaas? That was the healer set. Well welcome to vKA, where players won’t return unless for trifecta achievement progression. The initial “fun” appeal is just that - initial. All we have is a terribly designed but BiS set called Roaring Opportunist which will be 90% of why anyone returns to vKA after they beat Vet or Vet HM.
We need powerful, unique sets from our yearly trials. Sets that create viable trial playstyles such as False God and Lokke. Kyne’s Aegis is in a cold, snowy area. Imagine a set tailored to making characters (particularly Warden) convert some skills into more powerful Frost abilities so they can be legit competitive DPS Ice Mages.... people would farm that set like crazy. Or a set that alters the first class skill tree of each player class, in the same way that Master weapons alter one weapon ability. That would make Kyne’s Aegis the most popular trial by a long shot. Everyone would farm those because it would be “fun” and powerful. Then in future trials a new set can alter the second class skill tree, and eventually the third class skill tree.
Instead, vKA gives us:
• Magicka DD set - Major Slayer reused again... forced BiS for a healer with a terrible playstyle, also trashes War Machine, Master Architect, and Lokke.
• Tank set - Major Aegis reused again... a trash set on release, also trashes Automated Defense and Inventor’s Guard even further. Has a singular use in the entire game which would be to make Lokke’s HM beam DoT a bit easier to outheal.
• Healer set - Another ground-placed AoE healer’s proc no one will use, a trash set on release
• Stamina DD set - A PvP Stam set which got destroyed on PTS and now sucks at everything, trash on release
It’s all so boring.
vKA leaderboards will obviously look normal in Greymoor since everyone wants to run the new trial. Don’t be surprised when vKA leaderboards look the most empty 3 months later when it resets for the next patch though
Edited by Vaoh on June 5, 2020 1:46AM1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »How do you expect to sell the new expansion if you don't make good trial sets?
I am not arguing about the trial sets. However, I do question the premise the OP opened with.
I do not raid to get geared out. I raid because I enjoy the group challenge of doing well with clearing the content. Even when the gear is desirable I am still raising well after I have more of the new gear than I need.
In other words, I do not see the point in raiding for gear that is only useful in PvE instanced content as one of the set bonuses does not useful outside of instanced PvE content.
Bad sets greatly impact the replayability of content, that's just a fact, why do you think that people still run certain dungeons or trials more than others? It's because better gear, good content is important, but you need a good reward to go with it, otherwise people will not play it for long.
Just consider this, look at how few kyne's aegis trial groups there are compared to ss or cr, ON RELEASE, just absolutely insane. The preferences of players are evident, and it doesn't even look like kyne's aegis is such a good raid, so....
The trial serious raiders pay the most attention to is the newest dungeon. Considering they keep raiding that trial heavily well after they get the gear it is clear the gear is not the driving factor. Improving one's score to jump ahead of another team and getting achievements are the driving factors.
Yes, sometimes there is gear farming of older dungeons, especially the ones that have gear other than actual trial gear, but that is secondary with serious raiders. Also, some groups are not able to clear the newer content so they go for the older content. That is normal and ok.
Ofc, bad sets affect farm runs in normal mode for that gear but focused and serious raiding.
That's the point, good content alone isn't enough of a drive to repeat it over and over.
Whether it is competition to get the best score, or gear or achievements or whatever.
But gear is usually the most important for the majority of people, no good gear, means there really isn't a lot of incentive to run the trial more than a few times.
And people can sit here and pretend it's not true, but it is, dusk.Edited by JinMori on June 5, 2020 1:22PM3 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm actually a bit pleased/relieved to hear that new trial sets are not "BiS" and "must have". I have just managed to get the current best trial sets for the toons who need them (yes, I didn't do much or any PVE util like 2 months ago).
I think largely, the hysteria surrounding sets kind of needs to go. It's like a bit of the disease of the modern world, the idea of "constant progress" isn't a valid idea. If there were like a few sets that were comparable, it would be great. It feels kind of stupid to enter a trial, and every mag DD and stam DD wear their respective sets, a constant wave of "Wroaar!'ing" bears where stam DD's are. It would be great if there was room for a little more variety, and actually being more creative than farming Lokkestiiz, Relequen and Selene - and if you are not wearing that, people will try to talk you into doing it. I don't fancy that stuff...
This exactly, at some point constant progress is not viable. Just look at the CP system, a 0 CP I couldn't run an undaunted dungeon on normal mode and at 810 I can with the same armor. It's actually kind of boring. I ran direkeep last night and seriously just stood there while one of the bosses wailed on me for minutes and my health barely dropped, I actually didn't fight back was just curious as to how long it would take him to kill me(warden tank/hybrid btw so that's why but still at 0 CP no way). New sets for different build types yes, new sets with more power no.Edited by Veinblood1965 on June 5, 2020 1:25PM0 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭new trial sets are too good! - p2w complaints
new trial sets are too bad! - useless DLC complaints
typical modern players1 -
Xologamer✭✭✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »How do you expect to sell the new expansion if you don't make good trial sets? I guess you rely too much on the antiquities and the Skyrim nostalgia. That's not how it works. You make useful trial sets, popular content creators put them in their builds and people want to farm them.
I haven't seen anyone looking for Kyne's Aegis in Craglorn yet, everyone is still doing Sunspire and Cloudrest. You only managed to make one good set, a support set which was supposed to be a dd set and failed.
I'm trying to give helpful advice here, you should rework those sets to give people more incentive to buy the chapter and play the trial. I'm tired of using Vicious Ophidian and Leviathan on my magicka characters while stamina has so many interesting sets. Guess I'll have to wait and hope for the next DLC dungeon sets.
i love that they are not that op like last time becasue if they where dmg would incresse again(which is bad they should nerf dmg hard maybe good dd like 40k not such rediculius dmg like 100lk)
and another point is that i dont like grinding and if these sets are not bis u dont have to grind -> i can finaly play a new trial chilled without hoping to get new gear...0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »How do you expect to sell the new expansion if you don't make good trial sets?
I am not arguing about the trial sets. However, I do question the premise the OP opened with.
I do not raid to get geared out. I raid because I enjoy the group challenge of doing well with clearing the content. Even when the gear is desirable I am still raising well after I have more of the new gear than I need.
In other words, I do not see the point in raiding for gear that is only useful in PvE instanced content as one of the set bonuses does not useful outside of instanced PvE content.
Bad sets greatly impact the replayability of content, that's just a fact, why do you think that people still run certain dungeons or trials more than others? It's because better gear, good content is important, but you need a good reward to go with it, otherwise people will not play it for long.
Just consider this, look at how few kyne's aegis trial groups there are compared to ss or cr, ON RELEASE, just absolutely insane. The preferences of players are evident, and it doesn't even look like kyne's aegis is such a good raid, so....
The trial serious raiders pay the most attention to is the newest dungeon. Considering they keep raiding that trial heavily well after they get the gear it is clear the gear is not the driving factor. Improving one's score to jump ahead of another team and getting achievements are the driving factors.
Yes, sometimes there is gear farming of older dungeons, especially the ones that have gear other than actual trial gear, but that is secondary with serious raiders. Also, some groups are not able to clear the newer content so they go for the older content. That is normal and ok.
Ofc, bad sets affect farm runs in normal mode for that gear but focused and serious raiding.
That's the point, good content alone isn't enough of a drive to repeat it over and over.
You seem to have missed the point. People who enjoy raiding are not raiding to get the gear drops. They are raiding because they enjoy that activity. We know this is a fact because they keep raiding well after they have all the gear they could possibly want.
As for those who raid solely for the gear, which seems to be what you are speaking to, why care. Since they are not really interested in raiding and are only interested in collecting gear they have one less trial to worry about.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MrBrownstone wrote: »How do you expect to sell the new expansion if you don't make good trial sets?
I am not arguing about the trial sets. However, I do question the premise the OP opened with.
I do not raid to get geared out. I raid because I enjoy the group challenge of doing well with clearing the content. Even when the gear is desirable I am still raising well after I have more of the new gear than I need.
In other words, I do not see the point in raiding for gear that is only useful in PvE instanced content as one of the set bonuses does not useful outside of instanced PvE content.
Bad sets greatly impact the replayability of content, that's just a fact, why do you think that people still run certain dungeons or trials more than others? It's because better gear, good content is important, but you need a good reward to go with it, otherwise people will not play it for long.
Just consider this, look at how few kyne's aegis trial groups there are compared to ss or cr, ON RELEASE, just absolutely insane. The preferences of players are evident, and it doesn't even look like kyne's aegis is such a good raid, so....
The trial serious raiders pay the most attention to is the newest dungeon. Considering they keep raiding that trial heavily well after they get the gear it is clear the gear is not the driving factor. Improving one's score to jump ahead of another team and getting achievements are the driving factors.
Yes, sometimes there is gear farming of older dungeons, especially the ones that have gear other than actual trial gear, but that is secondary with serious raiders. Also, some groups are not able to clear the newer content so they go for the older content. That is normal and ok.
Ofc, bad sets affect farm runs in normal mode for that gear but focused and serious raiding.
That's the point, good content alone isn't enough of a drive to repeat it over and over.
You seem to have missed the point. People who enjoy raiding are not raiding to get the gear drops. They are raiding because they enjoy that activity. We know this is a fact because they keep raiding well after they have all the gear they could possibly want.
As for those who raid solely for the gear, which seems to be what you are speaking to, why care. Since they are not really interested in raiding and are only interested in collecting gear they have one less trial to worry about.
Read it again.1 -
Noldornir✭✭✭I agree, problem is we have lot of trials:
3x Craglorns
VMOL
VAS
VHOF
VCR
VSS
VKA
But 99% cases you use something from VCR/VSS, as a result these trial suffers an hvy farm while the others are neglected.
Tanks use Yoln, maybe galenwe and Dungeon/overland/pvp Sets so they farm dungeons and VSS+VCR
DD use sets from VSS/VCR + dungeon/overland one
Healers need 1 set from VKA, one from VCR, all the rest are dungeons
Nobody farms VMOL, VAS, VHOF or craglorn anymore (with the exception of stamDD for craglorn but even here the content is so old that few ppl needs it by now)
TL;DR
Most of endgame sets are actually obtained in ~20% of the trials, you can skip the rest, and dungeon/overworld/other sources.0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The new trail looks quite fun so I will probably run it more often than Kyne's Aegis.
I will try out Bahei's for my mag DDs and Sul-Xan for my stam DD, this could be pretty good in dungeons. Saxhleel looks pretty good for tanks and Stone-Talker could be good for healers.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
JTD✭✭✭I just want them to bring the sets closer together. Make the values not so widely different and work more with unique implementations or conditions. That useless set vault is filled to the brink with idea's that mostly aren't being used. Give me something else than BSW, Siro, MS, Medusa. Make me want to wear a monster set instead of 2 piece crit.
Make encounters have more impact on the use of sets... bosses immune to crit / or crit immune fases. Immu to HA, or reflect LA fases.. idk I'm not a game designer but we have so much sets and we can swap on the fly (addon). Why not?0 -
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