How good is twiceborn star today?

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

More or less the title.

For pre trial sets ive had reasonably solid performance pairing this set with newmoon as a starter kit for either mag or stam.

I know it used to be meta once upon a time but want to know how well it stacks up today, and see if anyone can shed light on the math behind it, and what sets that are readily available to a newly leveled toon might out perform it.

I do occasionally pair it with a spare set of mothers sorrow to immitate old meta so for any math and alternatives, ideally id like that taken into account as well.

Zer0_CooL · May 2020

Take julianos or hundings instead

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Can you elaborate on why?

majorana · May 2020

For any combination of mundus stones you choose with tbs there is set that gives better stats.

Eg. if you are using thief+shadow+tbs/nma
then you'll get better stats with shadow+leviathan (or AY)/nma
similarly, warrior+tbs can be replaced by Hundings

The only advantage of TBS is the flexibility it offers.

kylewwefan · May 2020

It’s very strong set for below 50. Go with Steed, Lover; maybe the lord. The mundus value doesn’t get weaker as you level.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Yes but how significang is that difference? These are fresh off the boat level 50 toons that im not trying to farm low level gear for. I like the flexibility but will swap for juli/hundings if its a significant dps difference. After all it will evdntually be replaced by trial gear.

As it is its absolutely one of my favorite 2 sets for leveling but post 50 while grinding higher end stuff is *** i want to know, and am curious how thf math plays out.

Instinctivley, i would think getting the extra mundus boon from shadow theif atro or lover would out perform the 5 piece bonus for juli/ hundings or at least be comparable.

But if one is better than the other, my question is, to what degree?

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Btw, i do get the other set bonuses from juli/hundings are more efficient and that effects the weighing of these sets, again though, im curious as to what degree a difference it makes.

kylewwefan · May 2020

Beats me. All something has to do to become meta is 1 more damage then the rest.

You could figure a couple percent or that could easily turn into thousands of dps loss. But keep in mind that’s mostly in a completely unrealistic environment.

TBS with say Shadow/Thief is gonna get you something close to MS but maybe MS ends up with %3 or %4 more crit.

You want min/max you gotta go meta. And play well. You’ll still be in the ballpark, but meta is very strong.

Also, I would not use TBS for weapons. Because reasons. Maybe you swap weapon. Then lose mundus. Have to go back and get new mundus. Big hassle.

You want meta numbers, but flexibility to pick your gear. That’s not gonna happen. Crafted gear is viable. And close.

And like said. Very strong in under 50. Because farming that gear massively blows.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Im not looking for meta numbers. Just a comparison so i can see what kind of difference im working with and make an educated decision about whether that flexibility is worth the damage difference.

I know we got some math nerds up here somewhere.

Why is everybody so obsessed with the meta?

JinMori · May 2020

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Im not looking for meta numbers. Just a comparison so i can see what kind of difference im working with and make an educated decision about whether that flexibility is worth the damage difference.

I know we got some math nerds up here somewhere.

Why is everybody so obsessed with the meta?

If you are gonna ask an opinion about performance, wtf do you think you are gonna get as an answer?

The 5 piece is very strong, but the set is let down by the awful 2 to 4 piece.

It's like asking i wanna know more about biology but don't gimme none of that scientific stuff. Ridiculous.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Well because i never asked what was meta. I asked how it compared to its alternatives and specifically if someone can shed light on the math.

I was asking for specifics and am getting the same broad conclusion you can find anywhere or responses relating to the meta and not to my question. Im also not asking for an opinion of is it good or is it bad, i was asking for facts on how it compares and idealy where the math comes in. Not a binary question with a binary answer.

Im looking for them sweet details my dude.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Like sure, julianos is better on paper, but how much better? You feel me?

TBS with say Shadow/Thief is gonna get you something close to MS but maybe MS ends up with %3 or %4 more crit.

This right here ^ is closest to the type of info i was looking for.

Stx · May 2020

The 2 through 4 bonuses are too weak to make up for any advantage you may get from running a second mundus stone.

Joxer61 · May 2020

twice as good...……………..

kylewwefan · May 2020

Because there’s Meta, and then there’s anything else. Literally hundreds if not thousands of combinations you can choose from. And they can all be viable, many are actually quite good.

Oh yeah, and the anything else will likely be very close in the same damage. Sets are fairly well balanced at least in that regard.

This is likely why no one is going to bother messing with the maths.

Ok. I got this much comparison for ya. On a 3 mil dummy I hit 32k with VO/NMG/Veli. I know it’s not impressive.

With Rele/Lokke/Veli I hit 30k. Still not impressive. Worse even. On the 21 mil dummy the NMG setup gets me about 50k and the Rele/Lokke setup gets much more(67k)
And that, while still not impressive is the best I got. And I hate that setup. Can’t stand Rele. It doesn’t perform well in any content I do.
And Lokke, also does nothing for you if not getting lots of synergies. You need to have a high uptime on it (<%70) for to outperform something as simple as Hundings. They both blow pretty hard for solo content and not the greatest in 4 man either.

I think I know what you’re getting at. You just want to know if it’s good. And how much better would something else be. You just want to be able to craft up your gear and run with it. So craft up your 3 sets. NMA, Juli, TBS. and try combinations of them. My guess is they’ll be within a couple thousand of each other on the dummies.

I shoot for something close to 30k on a 3 mil and call it a day. That’s more than fine for anything I’m trying to do. So if you hit 28k with one setup and 31k with another....that’s a %10 loss right? But it’s not the end of the world.

And it’s hard to say if more than that you’re just crit farming dummy tests. For me, it’s close enough.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

I get what your saying perhaps these degrees of difference matter more to me than to others.

I spent a lot of time on mhw and diving into that community awhile back.

A big difference between there and eso was the math side of things. I loved it. There was detailed breakdown of all the sets and bonuse and how they interacted with each weapon type so that you can make accurate estimates of power level and effectivity long before ever testing a build. If i was going to swap out this meta set for something off meta i would always know exactly how this was going to affect my overall power level and to what degree down to the damage ticks.

Unfortunately with eso, the most i ever get is 'this set is better' and never the answer to 'how much better?' and only a regurgitated response to 'why is it better?'

kylewwefan · May 2020

How much better in this game is a complicated question because of so many varying, changing and deciding factors.

Like my friend that race changed from Nord to Orc on a stamcro and DPS jumped from 62k to 70k trial dummy. Good luck finding that in writing somewhere, but it’s likely better than a %10 increase just by race changing.

I swap some gear and go from 50k to 67k, that’s about a %30 increase. But it plays like crap and really isn’t applicable to anything I’m doing.

I don’t do math. These are rough estimates at best. And they’re just mine. Someone else may be a whole lot different, for better or worse even.

JinMori · May 2020

It's difficult to quantify how much worse tbs is compared to other sets because of how many possible bonuses it can provide, but if we compare it to something like mother sorrow, it's basically full divines thief stone vs mother sorrow bonus, and mother sorrow gives more crit.

If twice born star was like recent crafted sets which have both stam and mag bonuses, and no health bonus it would be way better.

WrathOfInnos · May 2020

Comparing TBS to Julianos or Mothers Sorrow is pretty easy. Assuming Shadow Mundus is primary for all of these since it is the strongest. Here are the bonuses with approximate DPS contribution.

Juli
1. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
2. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
3. 300 Spell Damage ~ 4.5% DPS
Total ~ 9.5% DPS

TBS w Apprentice
1. 1096 Stamina ~ 0% DPS
2. 1206 Health ~ 0% DPS
3. 362 Spell Damage ~ 5.5% DPS
Total ~ 5.5% DPS

Sorrow
1. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
2. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
3. 8.8% Spell Crit ~ 5.5% DPS
Total ~ 10.5% DPS

TBS with Thief
1. 1096 Stamina ~ 0% DPS
2. 1206 Health ~ 0% DPS
3. 10.6% Spell Crit ~ 7% DPS
Total ~ 7% DPS

Note that all 4 of the options also have a line of 1096 Max Magicka, but that doesn’t affect the comparison between them.

So you can see that TBS has a stronger 5pc bonus than other sets, but overall is a loss of damage in exchange for a gain in survivability.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

This is exactly the kind of info i was looking for!

If I may though how are you getting your dps% number?

WrathOfInnos · May 2020

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of info i was looking for!

If I may though how are you getting your dps% number?

A lot of testing, and some use of the ESO damage formulas. Those are rounded to the nearest 1/2%, but should be pretty close for most PVE DPS builds.

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Where do you find the damage formulas?

Goregrinder · May 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Comparing TBS to Julianos or Mothers Sorrow is pretty easy. Assuming Shadow Mundus is primary for all of these since it is the strongest. Here are the bonuses with approximate DPS contribution.

Juli
1. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
2. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
3. 300 Spell Damage ~ 4.5% DPS
Total ~ 9.5% DPS

TBS w Apprentice
1. 1096 Stamina ~ 0% DPS
2. 1206 Health ~ 0% DPS
3. 362 Spell Damage ~ 5.5% DPS
Total ~ 5.5% DPS

Sorrow
1. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
2. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
3. 8.8% Spell Crit ~ 5.5% DPS
Total ~ 10.5% DPS

TBS with Thief
1. 1096 Stamina ~ 0% DPS
2. 1206 Health ~ 0% DPS
3. 10.6% Spell Crit ~ 7% DPS
Total ~ 7% DPS

Note that all 4 of the options also have a line of 1096 Max Magicka, but that doesn’t affect the comparison between them.

So you can see that TBS has a stronger 5pc bonus than other sets, but overall is a loss of damage in exchange for a gain in survivability.

Yup just like what literally everyone else was saying....its a dps loss. The disparity is sort of irrelevant because all I need to know if it's a significant loss, and since it is it's not worth running on your setup. I mean if you're poor and have no other options, then you have no choice I guess, but for most players like us who have set options...definitely use your free will to chose another setup.

rnklippel · May 2020

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Where do you find the damage formulas?

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php

OWLTHEMAD · May 2020

Goregrinder wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Comparing TBS to Julianos or Mothers Sorrow is pretty easy. Assuming Shadow Mundus is primary for all of these since it is the strongest. Here are the bonuses with approximate DPS contribution.

Juli
1. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
2. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
3. 300 Spell Damage ~ 4.5% DPS
Total ~ 9.5% DPS

TBS w Apprentice
1. 1096 Stamina ~ 0% DPS
2. 1206 Health ~ 0% DPS
3. 362 Spell Damage ~ 5.5% DPS
Total ~ 5.5% DPS

Sorrow
1. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
2. 3.8% Spell Crit ~ 2.5% DPS
3. 8.8% Spell Crit ~ 5.5% DPS
Total ~ 10.5% DPS

TBS with Thief
1. 1096 Stamina ~ 0% DPS
2. 1206 Health ~ 0% DPS
3. 10.6% Spell Crit ~ 7% DPS
Total ~ 7% DPS

Note that all 4 of the options also have a line of 1096 Max Magicka, but that doesn’t affect the comparison between them.

So you can see that TBS has a stronger 5pc bonus than other sets, but overall is a loss of damage in exchange for a gain in survivability.

Yup just like what literally everyone else was saying....its a dps loss. The disparity is sort of irrelevant because all I need to know if it's a significant loss, and since it is it's not worth running on your setup. I mean if you're poor and have no other options, then you have no choice I guess, but for most players like us who have set options...definitely use your free will to chose another setup.

Yeah, i knew it was a dps loss. That was never what i asked. I wanted to know what the degree difference was. How it compared. I wasnt concerned with whats meta. They will eventually farm the meta gear anyway. These are transitional. Sets that should perform well enough to get me through what i want to do. If the difference was significant i would have put together multiple sets to be more specialised for different content. Now i dont have too. I can run the same gear and just swap the mundus bonuses as needed depending on what im doing.

Im going to use it as its not significantly worse from juli/hundings performance wise and will function well enough as an all purpose set. Knowing what that degree difference was encouraged this decision over crafting multiple sets for different purposes.