Vampire Rework - Yet another suggestion of how to fix it

ShadowHvo · May 2020

I know what you're thinking, it is yet another suggestion for the new Vampire Rework. This aims to change as little as possible, while making the vampire balanced between its strength, weaknesses and capabilities. With this proposal, all vampire abilities remain the same, as all changes are exclusively towards the passive function of the vampire and its gameplay loop.

Feeding should once again decreases the Vampires Stages by one at a time, from 4 to 1. This is to better reinforce the unique Elder Scrolls vampire fantasy, while still providing a varied duality in playstyle. All skins are retained at their respective stages. Feeding is still an important aspect to the vampire, no matter well-fed or monstrous, and is constantly encouraged through the natural gameplay loop of Combat -> Exploration -> Socializing

Stage 1:
20% Increased Damage from Fire
20% Reduced Health Recovery
40% Reduced Cost of Vampire Abilities
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual

Stage 2:
30% Increased Damage from Fire
40% Reduced Health Recovery
25% Reduced cost of vampire abilities
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual
access to Strike From Shadows

Stage 3:
40% Increased Damage from Fire
60% Reduced Health Recovery
10% Reduced cost of vampire abilities
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual
access to Strike From Shadows
access to Undeath

Stage 4:
50% Increased Damage from Fire
80% Reduced Health Recovery
Monstrous - Justice System Violation (Major crime on detection)
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual
access to Strike From Shadows
access to Undeath
access to Unnatural Movement

In addition to these changes, Undeath should receive a 2% lifesteal, and Unnatural Movement should grant Minor Expedition while sprinting and Minor Force, to better balance Stage 3 & 4 with the massively increased fire damage taken.

These changes will return Vampirism to the unique identity, and balance of the previous Elder Scrolls games, while remaining a unique variant due to the newly revamped abilities and passives. The character is no longer needlessly restricted in their build opportunity, and Vampirism is kept a curse: with both strengths and weaknesses that balances it out. Boom. Equilibrium.

The well-fed vampires, the ones who masquerade within civil society, are fuelled with blood. They can cast and utilize their Vampiric Abilities to a greater extent. The more famished the vampire become, so too does their magical aptitude lessen, in favor of the monstrous nature that dwells within: increasing their unnatural prowess.

This makes the Vampire a much more varied choice, and functional on a greater variety of builds. It will still prove itself a gift, and a curse - via a balance of strength and weaknesses.

Thanks for reading, see ya' all in the next Vampire suggestion thread.

Michae · May 2020

Yeah, I think that feeding right now is kinda backwards. You feed to reduce your health regen. I'd say this reduced regen would make more sense if your vampire was starved on stage 4, like before.

OmniDo · May 2020

Vampire is borked, and ya'll can thank the "purists" who didn't like the Elder Scrolls variation of Vampire.
Hunger = Strength, but also inevitable degeneration into a mindless blood-fiend.

Now it's all kinds of backwards, and literally makes zero sense at all.
Welcome to another rendition of Stephanie Meyers, just without the sparkle.

ShadowHvo · May 2020

OmniDo wrote: »

Vampire is borked, and ya'll can thank the "purists" who didn't like the Elder Scrolls variation of Vampire.
Hunger = Strength, but also inevitable degeneration into a mindless blood-fiend.

Now it's all kinds of backwards, and literally makes zero sense at all.
Welcome to another rendition of Stephanie Meyers, just without the sparkle.

I agree whole heartily my man.

But surely, you would think that a suggestion like the one above, is far closer to our tried and true Elder Scrolls identity?

That is why I've made this suggestion after all, to keep it balanced, viable for all builds - yet most importantly: True to TES.

Zariah · May 2020

Yeah I agree with all of this. They should really balance it out.

Merca · May 2020

Better forget about it if ZOS decides to balance vampirism, there 's a strong chance they 'll do even worse.

Rovaeden · May 2020

I like the ideas here, especially the tying of abilities to powers and cheaper vampire abilities at the hungry end of the scale.

One thing I would like to point out is that the "backwards vampire" is a relatively new thing in TES games and TES lore. It was added in Oblivion, to much controversy but it has stuck around since then.
Before that point, vampires were very much like the classic vampires from any other story or game, weak and feral when hungry and powerful and human looking when fed.
I don't know why they decided to mix it up for Oblivion but I do not feel like it served any great purpose to do so. Maybe it was an ESRB rating thing, who knows?

ShadowHvo · May 2020

Rovaeden wrote: »

I like the ideas here, especially the tying of abilities to powers and cheaper vampire abilities at the hungry end of the scale.

One thing I would like to point out is that the "backwards vampire" is a relatively new thing in TES games and TES lore. It was added in Oblivion, to much controversy but it has stuck around since then.
Before that point, vampires were very much like the classic vampires from any other story or game, weak and feral when hungry and powerful and human looking when fed.
I don't know why they decided to mix it up for Oblivion but I do not feel like it served any great purpose to do so. Maybe it was an ESRB rating thing, who knows?

Personally I wouldn't really say that TES portrayed Vampirism in such a traditional way prior to Oblivion, as the games (Daggerfall and Morrowind) pretty much forced you to solely play a Monstrous vampire. While I do know that Oblivion added the stages, I believe they did so to offer the player a relative balanced dynamic between Well-fed, Humane and Famished, Monstrous. Since there otherwise would be no benefit to the monstrous type of vampires, if they only had weaknesses and no strengths.

Though that is naturally just my assumption. But I did wish to alleviate that with this suggestion, since that would make both the Well-fed, and the Famished vampire equally powerful - but in different ways.

Famished, monstrous, unnatural prowess, a ravenous predator.
Well-fed, humane, magically empowered, a masquerading monster.

Fitting really, if you ask me at least. I did like your suggestion too, though. Even if I fear that any and all large-scale changes are off the table.

Rovaeden · May 2020

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Rovaeden wrote: »

I like the ideas here, especially the tying of abilities to powers and cheaper vampire abilities at the hungry end of the scale.

One thing I would like to point out is that the "backwards vampire" is a relatively new thing in TES games and TES lore. It was added in Oblivion, to much controversy but it has stuck around since then.
Before that point, vampires were very much like the classic vampires from any other story or game, weak and feral when hungry and powerful and human looking when fed.
I don't know why they decided to mix it up for Oblivion but I do not feel like it served any great purpose to do so. Maybe it was an ESRB rating thing, who knows?

Personally I wouldn't really say that TES portrayed Vampirism in such a traditional way prior to Oblivion, as the games (Daggerfall and Morrowind) pretty much forced you to solely play a Monstrous vampire. While I do know that Oblivion added the stages, I believe they did so to offer the player a relative balanced dynamic between Well-fed, Humane and Famished, Monstrous. Since there otherwise would be no benefit to the monstrous type of vampires, if they only had weaknesses and no strengths.

Though that is naturally just my assumption. But I did wish to alleviate that with this suggestion, since that would make both the Well-fed, and the Famished vampire equally powerful - but in different ways.

Famished, monstrous, unnatural prowess, a ravenous predator.
Well-fed, humane, magically empowered, a masquerading monster.

Fitting really, if you ask me at least. I did like your suggestion too, though. Even if I fear that any and all large-scale changes are off the table.

The thing I like most about your idea is that depending on the stages of satiation the vampire could be good for stam or magicka.
Hungry boosts stam builds, well fed boosts magicka builds.

I think that would take some work for ZOS to fine tune but could be an elegant solution that makes everybody happy.

Vevvev · May 2020

I like this idea Shadow and seems like something the devs could easily add in. Would also bring back the good old days of ESO when flame damage was absolutely ridiculous! Might need to get toned down a bit to 30-40% at stage 4?

As for the ongoing conversation I always thought the reason they added the Stages in Oblivion is because you could feed on people in the traditional sense instead of brutally murdering them like in Daggerfall. In Daggerfall killing any living creature counted as feeding and if you didn't feed every day you were unable to regenerate resources and sleep, which could be quite detrimental. In Morrowind you couldn't even heal at all without the aid of spells and of course feeding on cattle in your vampire clan headquarters after you completed their quests.

Oblivion really fleshed out the whole "Vampire hiding in plain sight" game play that was quite interesting and fun to play. Skyrim followed the same basic guidelines but obviously it was a different bloodline so when fully fed they didn't have Clavicus Vile's blessing that made them immune to the sun. Of course people like myself got around this by having incredibly good healing spells on hand, and of course waiting till night.

Grubbs008 · May 2020

Vampire's should work how they always worked in all games except ESO. If you feed you get stronger, having reduced health regen and more cost to skills is not a strength, it's a weakness.

Deathlord92 · May 2020

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I know what you're thinking, it is yet another suggestion for the new Vampire Rework. This aims to change as little as possible, while making the vampire balanced between its strength, weaknesses and capabilities. With this proposal, all vampire abilities remain the same, as all changes are exclusively towards the passive function of the vampire and its gameplay loop.

Feeding should once again decreases the Vampires Stages by one at a time, from 4 to 1. This is to better reinforce the unique Elder Scrolls vampire fantasy, while still providing a varied duality in playstyle. All skins are retained at their respective stages. Feeding is still an important aspect to the vampire, no matter well-fed or monstrous, and is constantly encouraged through the natural gameplay loop of Combat -> Exploration -> Socializing

Stage 1:
20% Increased Damage from Fire
20% Reduced Health Recovery
40% Reduced Cost of Vampire Abilities
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual

Stage 2:
30% Increased Damage from Fire
40% Reduced Health Recovery
25% Reduced cost of vampire abilities
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual
access to Strike From Shadows

Stage 3:
40% Increased Damage from Fire
60% Reduced Health Recovery
10% Reduced cost of vampire abilities
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual
access to Strike From Shadows
access to Undeath

Stage 4:
50% Increased Damage from Fire
80% Reduced Health Recovery
Monstrous - Justice System Violation (Major crime on detection)
access to Dark Stalker
access to Blood Ritual
access to Strike From Shadows
access to Undeath
access to Unnatural Movement

In addition to these changes, Undeath should receive a 2% lifesteal, and Unnatural Movement should grant Minor Expedition while sprinting and Minor Force, to better balance Stage 3 & 4 with the massively increased fire damage taken.

These changes will return Vampirism to the unique identity, and balance of the previous Elder Scrolls games, while remaining a unique variant due to the newly revamped abilities and passives. The character is no longer needlessly restricted in their build opportunity, and Vampirism is kept a curse: with both strengths and weaknesses that balances it out. Boom. Equilibrium.

The well-fed vampires, the ones who masquerade within civil society, are fuelled with blood. They can cast and utilize their Vampiric Abilities to a greater extent. The more famished the vampire become, so too does their magical aptitude lessen, in favor of the monstrous nature that dwells within: increasing their unnatural prowess.

This makes the Vampire a much more varied choice, and functional on a greater variety of builds. It will still prove itself a gift, and a curse - via a balance of strength and weaknesses.

Thanks for reading, see ya' all in the next Vampire suggestion thread.

I like this suggestion it makes more sense then what sadly gone live and actually gives you a reason to feed. Right now why would you want to feed when you get a fat 12% cost increase in your normal abilities.

ShadowHvo · May 2020

Im glad that you guys agree.

My hope with this is really that it is a very minor change, that should be relatively easy to implement, while improving ESO's Vampire Rework a ton.

XomRhoK · May 2020

I think it will be hard to balance cost of the vampire skills, looks like or stage 1 will be owerpowered and all players will be vampires again, or at stage 4 players will be hardly use any vampire skills. On live servers more weaknessess + lower vampire skill cost, in your variant less weaknessess + lower vampier skill cost. I understand that there are passives also, but if players will receive powerful and cheap spammable, passives will not matter.

ShadowHvo · May 2020

XomRhoK wrote: »

I think it will be hard to balance cost of the vampire skills, looks like or stage 1 will be owerpowered and all players will be vampires again, or at stage 4 players will be hardly use any vampire skills. On live servers more weaknessess + lower vampire skill cost, in your variant less weaknessess + lower vampier skill cost. I understand that there are passives also, but if players will receive powerful and cheap spammable, passives will not matter.

Im a bit surprised that you're saying this, as I would argue that the weaknesses are far more balanced here. The fire damage on live is very slim, and what this suggestion entails is to increase it to a point, where it cannot be ignored - no matter the stage.

If this was a reality, I would personally go Monstrous, as that aligns itself better to stamina.

In this idea, Stage 1 has only a single passive bonus, but on the other hand easier access to the magical abilities granted by Vampirism.

It is a duality, not just between Humane, Monstrous, Magicka or Stamina, but strength and weaknesses that befits the Elder Scrolls Vampire Fantasy, too.

Hexi · May 2020

Grubbs008 wrote: »

Vampire's should work how they always worked in all games except ESO. If you feed you get stronger, having reduced health regen and more cost to skills is not a strength, it's a weakness.

In every single Elder Scrolls game, not feeding made you stronger but also increased your vulnerabilities. Like it was before the update.

Foefaller · May 2020

Like the idea of the stages being about different bonuses, rather than increasing bonuses/penalties.

But the skill cost changes would make every Magicka DPS build a stage 1 vamp to spam Blood for Blood, while every tank is now a stage 3-4 vamp for Undeath, because there isn't enough enemies that do fire damage to not take it as default and just have a plan for if/when it comes up.

And I do mean *every,* Blood for Blood would be insanely powerful with that cost reduction if you didn't have to rely on it almost exclusively, and lifesteal for tanks is practically irresistible.

Spectral_Force · May 2020

I feel like one of the keys to Vampire stages working properly is the ability to both advance and reduce stages quickly and conveniently. For example, in the old system you could feed to reduce vampire stage and spam Mist Form to advance it.
If the Vampire rework 2.0 is to happen, we definitely need a mechanic that does the same thing. It's probably not a good idea to make every ability reduce the Stage timer like the old abilities used to (not the spammable, anyway), though it's possible to work it into the skill line in other ways. For example, you can make Blood Frenzy burn through your stages until you're all the way back to Stage 1, at which point it becomes unavailable (which has the added benefit of giving ZOS one more variable to balance the ability around in addition to "damage you do" and "health this costs"). You could also make a Vampire self-heal (because God knows vampires need one) that lowers your Stage timer in addition to costing whatever resource you use to cast it; think Bloodheal from VtM - "use the power of blood within you to heal your body" or some such.
In both of these cases, you force Vampire players to be just a bit more active in biting things to keep themselves nice and fed, while also giving us a tool to quickly burn through the stages the way we could back pre-Greymoor.

EDIT: I'm aware Vampiric Libations exists, and no, something that you have to pay money for in the Crown Store is not a valid way to implement this.

Foefaller · May 2020

Hexi wrote: »

Grubbs008 wrote: »

Vampire's should work how they always worked in all games except ESO. If you feed you get stronger, having reduced health regen and more cost to skills is not a strength, it's a weakness.

In every single Elder Scrolls game, not feeding made you stronger but also increased your vulnerabilities. Like it was before the update.

*Except Daggerfall, where feeding was nessisary to maintain your regen, and Morrowind, where you didn't have to bother with feeding at all.

ShadowHvo · May 2020

Spectral_Force wrote: »

I feel like one of the keys to Vampire stages working properly is the ability to both advance and reduce stages quickly and conveniently. For example, in the old system you could feed to reduce vampire stage and spam Mist Form to advance it.

I do agree whole heartily.

If anything, I believe it should be tied to one of the new abilities, and as you yourself mentioned, Frenzy seems like a fairly good contender.

Isskander · May 2020

It's so true that previous vamp was no sence to reduce vampirism (besides 1 stage on vss red dragon) , now it have no sence to feed over 1st stage (besides pvp) cause of ability cost.
So agree to above suggestions.
Also maybe if we want more feeding than reducing stage timer maybe to 1hr will be more adequate.
Anyways i like this vamp update. mag dps classes always was left faaar behind stam. Even new trial have nothing to oiffer. Vamp is something fresh even if it has many lacks ..

Redvelin · May 2020

While I largely enjoy the revamp, It does seem to contradict how Vampires have previously been established in Elder Scrolls, which very much irks me personally.
This seems like a very elegant solution to appeal to both type of vampire character fantasies (monstrous vs well-fed) in one skill-line while steering things back to how they've been depicted previously in lore.

ShadowHvo · June 2020

I'm glad that you guys seem to agree with this simple solution, that to me, would increase the enjoyment of Vampirism tremendously.

But yeah, I fear that we can only hope for Zenimax to make an actual change at this point.

LinearParadox · June 2020

I love how everyone is bashing on the vamp rework, especially as "not lore-friendly" when for YEARS it was the most immersion-breaking and backwards implementation I've ever seen.

NPCs ignoring stage 4 vampires, who never fed, or used any vampire abilities(because there was only mistform), just got it as a stat-boost and then NEVER ENGAGED WITH THE CONTENT beyond that.

Now you have a version that's a CHOICE. A version with powers and weaknesses that fit a certain playstyle and everyone is crying to go back to the old plain-jane everyone is a vampire because why tf not. Health regen was NEVER a deterrent, health regen is a joke stat and isn't even noticeable outside of meme builds. Fire damage was a bit of a liability, but only in rare situations was it actually a threat worth considering. Otherwise it was just a free 200~ regen and THAT'S IT.

NO ONE FED. NO ONE.

Vampire was always supposed to be a choice, a trade-off, just like WW.
WW gets some free stats and such, but it comes at the requirement of playing in a certain way, and the cost of not having access to certain things, like ANY OTHER SKILL.

The only negative effect Vamps have to really deal with right now is cost increase, which is ALMOST COMPLETELY NEGATED by just staying stage one. Oh, and you still get access to ALL the vamp abilities. None of them are locked to stages.

The only thing you lose, is the passives. Passives like.. oh lets see...

PERMA-INVISIBILITY (Obtainable nowhere else but NB cloak)
A Free 300 W/S damage (Equivalent to a full 5pc Hundings/Julianos)
Undeath, up to 30% damage reduction. THIRTY PERCENT. And it no longer only scales under 25/50% health. No no, you're at 50% health? Here, have a FREE 15% UNTYPED DAMAGE REDUCTION.

But yeah, lets just keep backing off on the penalties, it's not like they're the only thing even remotely balancing these tremendous stat steroids.
Or lets put them back to the way they were, an uninspired and no-brainer automatic choice for a base stat boost. -_-

I'm no white-knight for ZoS, look at my post history and you'll see that easily enough, but honestly this Vamp rework (and WW QoL stuff) is one of the best damn things they've done in a long time.
If you can't figure out how to use it, work with it, play around it, etc. then I feel badly for you, and I recommend you just avoid the skilline entirely since it is, you know, a CHOICE.
Others, like myself, will continue to do just fine with it, thank you very much.

ShadowHvo · June 2020

LinearParadox wrote: »

I love how everyone is bashing on the vamp rework, especially as "not lore-friendly" when for YEARS it was the most immersion-breaking and backwards implementation I've ever seen.

NPCs ignoring stage 4 vampires, who never fed, or used any vampire abilities(because there was only mistform), just got it as a stat-boost and then NEVER ENGAGED WITH THE CONTENT beyond that.

Now you have a version that's a CHOICE. A version with powers and weaknesses that fit a certain playstyle and everyone is crying to go back to the old plain-jane everyone is a vampire because why tf not. Health regen was NEVER a deterrent, health regen is a joke stat and isn't even noticeable outside of meme builds. Fire damage was a bit of a liability, but only in rare situations was it actually a threat worth considering. Otherwise it was just a free 200~ regen and THAT'S IT.

NO ONE FED. NO ONE.

I find it remarkably ironic, that you're writing this in a thread, that has the sole purpose to eliminate precisely this grievance.

But alright, you do you.

The current version isn't well balanced. Stage 4 Vampires walk around freely without any Justice System interaction, beyond unimportant NPC's refusing to engage in conversations, and Vampirism is no longer solid for Healers, Tanks or Stamina Characters overall, but solely useful for Magicka Damage Dealers.

I want Vampirism to be true to Elder Scrolls. A Famished, ghoulish-looking Vampire should be attacked on the sight, and have the prowess of its Monstrous nature as the trade-off. The well-fed Vampire should be able to pose as a healthy individual, masquerading in the public as they've always done.

Now vampires feast to become famished, and vampires starve to become well-fed. How odd is that?

This whole suggestion makes all 4 stages viable, gives it suitable weaknesses and strengths that balances it, and offers a constant incentive to feed and interact with Vampirism.

All of this, with some incredibly simple adjustments, that's borderline just a few number changes. No fancy visual overhauls or reworks, literal stat changes.