Vampire stages are wrong ways.

Tapio75 · May 2020

I am puzzled about this.

I have been used to TES vampires to be strongest when starving amd mow, suddenly we are not TES vampires on that part because we are strongest when fully fed.

Um.. I feel this is totally wrong... Am i wrong? Lorenerds please help?

Dr_Sinister · May 2020

Because we can't sleep in ESO. You had to sleep in order to activate that stage. Or was it fast travelling as well? I can't remember....

catnamedwill · May 2020

Actually TES vampires don't get stronger when starving. That was specifically a trait of Oblivion vampire bloodline. When Skyrim came out and they did the same, there was a lot of opposition from the lore followers but Bethesda later justified it in Dawnguard DLC, by adding some Cyrodilic connection to Lord Harkon's bloodline. Outside of these two bloodline, all other bloodlines have it. Also if you think about, you are not just getting stronger by feeding, you are also getting a lot weaker in other ways.

purple-magicb16_ESO · May 2020

Quiet you...

Gabrielzavadski · May 2020

There are lots of vampiric bloodlines, i mean a lot, too many to know all their names, and each has it's own distinctive characteristics... guess lore nerds aren't so nerds

People are mistaking game mechanics with lore, and that's sad.

Although, it's not very lore friendly to become a Blood Scion out of the nowhere with the new update, or to keep changing lore at their will.

Tapio75 · May 2020

Gabrielzavadski wrote: »

There are lots of vampiric bloodlines, i mean a lot, too many to know all their names, and each has it's own distinctive characteristics... guess lore nerds aren't so nerds

People are mistaking game mechanics with lore, and that's sad.

Although, it's not very lore friendly to become a Blood Scion out of the nowhere with the new update, or to keep changing lore at their will.

I first played TES vampire in Oblivion and then in Skyrim as well, so that where i came from and while it felt "Wrong" at first due Count Dracula stuff not related to TES, i got used to it and it being TES so its different which is good.

I also noted that there are many bloodlines with each having own distinctive characteristics but but... I was until now in ESO, in a bloodline of my own... Then that character changed bloodlines and became totally different vampire all of a sudden.. I Mean i like most of the changes but changing directions of feeding to totally opposite of what it was on this era, not to mention that we are all made basically by same vampire to begin with though we do have our own backstories to make it "Out of the game mechanics".

Naturally i also remember many people complaining about looking ugly when at stage 4, which never bothered me because if i had a roleplay coming up, i could just quickly revert back to stage 1 by feeding, so theres that too. If i now want to utake advantage of my vampire passives, i am locked to that appearance for hours so basically i need to be just a normal class not feeding for hours before i need that normal appearance of my character.

I also dont like bloodscion, but thankfully i can just opt out by not using the ultimate anymore.

I think this vampire thingy would have worked better as an additional vampire bloodline rather than being a reqwork.

In any case, my biggest headache here is really the total reversion of how my feeding works all of a sudeen like im not that same vampire anymore that i was before. With new character being freshly made vampire, that problem does not exist though.

indigorune · May 2020

logically it makes more sense that a vampire would get stronger by feeding. do you get weaker when you eat food? no, it replenishes your energy. if you go hungry, you get weaker. to me, that same logic should apply.

Ratzkifal · May 2020

We got an official lore explanation on this topic. Yes, you are right that normally things are the other way around, but Lamae artificially altered her bloodline to work the other way around. We are of Lamae's bloodline, so it works the other way around now.

Yes, this is technically a retcon of how it was in ESO before.

Nemesis7884 · May 2020

lorewise I do think you can make the interesting argument

Molag Bal basically uses vampirism to enslave and control people - so you get hungrier and hungrier and more feral the less you feed as a means for him to control and stear your rage

whereas

Lamae Bal wants to free you and have you embrace your vampire nature instead of being enslaved by it so she changes you to help you unlock your potential

Lady_Linux · May 2020

n0tthesun wrote: »

logically it makes more sense that a vampire would get stronger by feeding. do you get weaker when you eat food? no, it replenishes your energy. if you go hungry, you get weaker. to me, that same logic should apply.

when i eat i get sleepy.. so in some sense that is weaker...

Lady_Linux · May 2020

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

lorewise I do think you can make the interesting argument

Molag Bal basically uses vampirism to enslave and control people - so you get hungrier and hungrier and more feral the less you feed as a means for him to control and stear your rage

whereas

Lamae Bal wants to free you and have you embrace your vampire nature instead of being enslaved by it so she changes you to help you unlock your potential

Yah ok BUT why does she have his name she has a last name and it aint Bal................... Lamae Beolfag ok so maybe Bal is better then that BUT she should have NOT chosen his last name. THAT make no sense.

Hexi · May 2020

They have completely butchered the lore of Vampires in TES because they can't make a decision on game mechanics and game mechanics always trump lore since Morrowind so the ADD kiddies won't spaz out.

navystylz_ESO · May 2020

Tapio75 wrote: »

I am puzzled about this.

I have been used to TES vampires to be strongest when starving amd mow, suddenly we are not TES vampires on that part because we are strongest when fully fed.

Um.. I feel this is totally wrong... Am i wrong? Lorenerds please help?

Actually the only thing that happens when you feed is you get a bit more vampire ability reduction and access to other passives. But you gain more penalties and normal abilities cost more. Seems like you still stay strongest when not fed, lol.

IsmeldaHuine · May 2020

I mostly used the vampire skill line for the Sneak speed and the Mist form (for speed) and now I will still only use it for the sneak but not for the mist anymore which is too expensive and a criminal act as if you could fine a mist...

Anyway they went from we don't want people to use vampire for passive only to the exact same point as the vampire imho becomes weaker as he feeds (more damages from fire, lower regeneration and higher cost on skills) so there is absolutely no point of feedding at all when you play stamina.

If they did reverse the effects that would actually force us to feed and endure the justice system from being fully fed but right now it is all just use the 2 first passives and never feed like it has always been.

Hexi · May 2020

IsmeldaHuine wrote: »

I mostly used the vampire skill line for the Sneak speed and the Mist form (for speed) and now I will still only use it for the sneak but not for the mist anymore which is too expensive and a criminal act as if you could fine a mist...

Anyway they went from we don't want people to use vampire for passive only to the exact same point as the vampire imho becomes weaker as he feeds (more damages from fire, lower regeneration and higher cost on skills) so there is absolutely no point of feedding at all when you play stamina.

If they did reverse the effects that would actually force us to feed and endure the justice system from being fully fed but right now it is all just use the 2 first passives and never feed like it has always been.

There is no point in feeding, ever. Even at max stage, frenzy is suicide and slightly lower hp cost on blood for blood means nothing. The passive you get from high stages are meaningless, except the invis run perk is fun for TG/DB missions, but beyond that? Ehhhh.

If you still fail the bonus objectives with the high stage passive, just stop trying, there is no hope.

Red_Feather · May 2020

I prefer it this way. I have to roleplay a vampire different than regular characters. And I like how the vampire quest explains why it is different than normal vampires.

indigorune · May 2020

Lady_Linux wrote: »

n0tthesun wrote: »

logically it makes more sense that a vampire would get stronger by feeding. do you get weaker when you eat food? no, it replenishes your energy. if you go hungry, you get weaker. to me, that same logic should apply.

when i eat i get sleepy.. so in some sense that is weaker...

So when you have breakfast in the morning, you just go back to sleep? Lol.

I just mean that scientifically, food provides your body with nourishment and that in turn helps you function.

Dr_Sinister · May 2020

n0tthesun wrote: »

logically it makes more sense that a vampire would get stronger by feeding. do you get weaker when you eat food? no, it replenishes your energy. if you go hungry, you get weaker. to me, that same logic should apply.

Vampires feed to quench their thirst for blood. The longer they go without, the more ravenous and powerful they get. Vampires lose their humanity/human form the longer they go without feeding. Not the other way around

Linaleah · May 2020

Lady_Linux wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

lorewise I do think you can make the interesting argument

Molag Bal basically uses vampirism to enslave and control people - so you get hungrier and hungrier and more feral the less you feed as a means for him to control and stear your rage

whereas

Lamae Bal wants to free you and have you embrace your vampire nature instead of being enslaved by it so she changes you to help you unlock your potential

Yah ok BUT why does she have his name she has a last name and it aint Bal................... Lamae Beolfag ok so maybe Bal is better then that BUT she should have NOT chosen his last name. THAT make no sense.

to spite him. Lamae has been made into a very spiteful woman by her experiences. I mean.. the whole original becoming a vampire quest is spite personified.

Gabrielzavadski · May 2020

The only thing bad about the "new" vampirism, is that they just changed how it works, contradicting lore, like reverse feeding and being "vampire lord" scion out of the nowhere.

Even though i said in this thread before about the many vampiric bloodlines on the Lore, ZOS is just throwing lore away, purely for marketing porpuses; and just like I said, they can't just keep changing everything related to lore at their will.

I'm going to remake vampire questline to see if they changed dialogues and such, but I don't expect much...

Foefaller · May 2020

Gabrielzavadski wrote: »

The only thing bad about the "new" vampirism, is that they just changed how it works, contradicting lore, like reverse feeding and being "vampire lord" scion out of the nowhere.

Even though i said in this thread before about the many vampiric bloodlines on the Lore, ZOS is just throwing lore away, purely for marketing porpuses; and just like I said, they can't just keep changing everything related to lore at their will.

I'm going to remake vampire questline to see if they changed dialogues and such, but I don't expect much...

They did, though most of it is questions you ask while still in the sanctum after the quest is done.

Lamae explains that you've been granted a unique strain of vampirism, one which drinks blood to become more powerful. And the Blood Scion form is her way to spite Molag Bal the Vampire Lords who earned it by being make a vampire by the Lord of Domination himself, by giving her spawn the ability to take a similar form.

She also more-or-less states that this whole thing isn't natural (or at least natural as far as TES vampirism goes) which is why you have to infect other players near her altars, so she can sense them and make sure their vampirism becomes like yours. (The new animation for infection has the infected floating in the air for a bit, implying there is more than the passing of a disease involved)

Vevvev · May 2020

I always liked the explanation that by starving you became more closer to being a daedra due to the vampiric blood taking hold, and by feeding you brought yourself closer to what you once were before you turned. Blood being the cure to the vampiric condition that restored your mind and body so you could act normal made a pretty good lore explanation as to why vampires drank blood. Now with this retcon of Lamae's bloodline blood seems to drive her vampires into a frenzy due to the increased cost of regular abilities, but what doesn't make sense is the lack of healing from blood.

Before the rework feeding actually did heal you and if you could turn invisible you could use feed in combat. It feels like a oversight because now blood seems to do the opposite of heal you which doesn't sit well with me. Wish the stage 4 vampire didn't have a -100% health recovery, but if they plan to keep it they really should add a heal to the feed synergy.

OmniDo · May 2020

Hexi wrote: »

They have completely butchered the lore of Vampires in TES because they can't make a decision on game mechanics and game mechanics always trump lore since Morrowind so the ADD kiddies won't spaz out.

100% Accurate.

Hexi wrote: »

There is no point in feeding, ever. Even at max stage, frenzy is suicide and slightly lower hp cost on blood for blood means nothing. The passive you get from high stages are meaningless, except the invis run perk is fun for TG/DB missions, but beyond that? Ehhhh.

Also 100% Accurate.

[ - For PvE - ]
I've been testing the various stages, increased costs, and various perks from the passives.
There really is no reason to go beyond stage 1 unless you are tanking, and even then it would be a very specific type of tank to make any effective use of Stage 3.
Stage 4's only purpose is the invis-sprint, which is admittedly addictive and extremely potent, regardless of class.
Its a guaranteed aggro-dump and an escape from any situation, as well as being highly effective at avoiding unwanted situations. The non-vampire ability cost can be successfully mitigated by a single Kuta Jewelry enchant for cost reduction, rendering the 12% increase moot at the expense of a small reduction to maximum dps.

Beyond that, it's Stage 1-4-Unlife, with a niche toolkit of other skills that may or may not ever be needed.

[ - For PvP - ]
I don't have any significant interest in PvP, so I don't care.
I'll let others do their own research and substantiate their own conclusions and dispositions there.

So besides the lore being all Riddikulus, *sighs*, the changes wont impact my use for Vampirism, and in fact, will expand my enjoyment of resource farming and situational control.

Tapio75 · May 2020

Red_Feather wrote: »

I prefer it this way. I have to roleplay a vampire different than regular characters. And I like how the vampire quest explains why it is different than normal vampires.

Exepy now we are more like almost all other vampires in popular culture where after Morrowind to this new rework, the TES vampire was more unique because it worked opposite to most other vampires in various stories.

I also get puzzled why we get to look like mosters when fully fed now. I mean if we are artificially made to reverse the feeding to get more powerful, would that also include keeping the positive side of being fed which is havving almost normal appearance to make that artificial vampirism even more powerful, because why would Lamae just make your feeding make you strong with those weaknesses but still keep or more to the ppoint, also change the appearance to be revcersed so fully fed looks like a starved vampire now.

I Mean the old vampire was most powerful on vampire abilities when starving and people could see that but now, when they see undead looking vampire, they know that vampire is even more åpowerful.

I mean if i was Lamae, i would consider this portion of experiment a fail. A succesful reverse of vampirism made artificially would have been to keep the appearance of fully fed vampire while also making vampire abilities of yjay nbloodline grow stronger when looking like normal. That would have been a success but now in most part, her experiment seems more like an epic faiul, if we also take in account the game mechanic changes to the vampire.

I really hate it when lore gets twisted in the development process which makes me also not actually know anymore what is true and what is not.

Yeah, i do know that the appearance is purely because of PvP so we also suffer from PvP side once again here.

The way it worked before and also in Skyrim and in Oblivion made more sense to me though f appearance would have been reversed too, it would have been more sensical to me too, but then again it would have been exactly like all other vanpires in many stories..

To think of it, they m9ight have been watching vampires from Buffy the vampire slayer a bit too much.

craybest · May 2020

Poor vampire rpers, I wonder if they have thought of a cool way to rp this.

tomofhyrule · May 2020

I could easily handwave this as a different strain of vampirism, but TES has played with the idea of vampirism in several other games too.

Example: Lord Lovidicus (Oblivion) was starved for years, and that just made him feral. Rona Hassildor (also Oblivion) also starved for years, and ended up in a coma until she was cured and promptly died. Also from the same game, Seridur doesn't even show as a vampire, and can even get killed by his own minions in Memorial Cave.

Heck, this "feed to get less hunger" has also only existed since Oblivion in the first place. Before that, there was vampire or not-vampire...and being a vampire in games like Morrowind closed off a lot of the game from you in the sense that barely anyone would talk to you. I always figure there's a certain amount of gameplay/story segregation needed.

While I get the "starving makes me more feral with hunger" aspect we're used to in Oblivion, ESO also has used both ways from the beginning. Look at the Wittestadr objective in Eastmarch - Valeric has the appearance of a stage 1 or 2 vamp, and his whole thing is that he and his coven avoid drinking human blood (which backfires spectacularly). They are ostensibly the 'weaker' ones for abstaining. Meanwhile his father makes no secret of feeding, and he's stage 4, and is also shown as the stronger one. So technically, this way of feeding has been in the game from the beginning...

Foefaller · May 2020

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could easily handwave this as a different strain of vampirism, but TES has played with the idea of vampirism in several other games too.

Example: Lord Lovidicus (Oblivion) was starved for years, and that just made him feral. Rona Hassildor (also Oblivion) also starved for years, and ended up in a coma until she was cured and promptly died. Also from the same game, Seridur doesn't even show as a vampire, and can even get killed by his own minions in Memorial Cave.

Heck, this "feed to get less hunger" has also only existed since Oblivion in the first place. Before that, there was vampire or not-vampire...and being a vampire in games like Morrowind closed off a lot of the game from you in the sense that barely anyone would talk to you. I always figure there's a certain amount of gameplay/story segregation needed.

While I get the "starving makes me more feral with hunger" aspect we're used to in Oblivion, ESO also has used both ways from the beginning. Look at the Wittestadr objective in Eastmarch - Valeric has the appearance of a stage 1 or 2 vamp, and his whole thing is that he and his coven avoid drinking human blood (which backfires spectacularly). They are ostensibly the 'weaker' ones for abstaining. Meanwhile his father makes no secret of feeding, and he's stage 4, and is also shown as the stronger one. So technically, this way of feeding has been in the game from the beginning...

And if you go back earlier, being a Vampire in Daggerfall meant you had to feed on (i.e. kill) a living creature every night (though it didn't have to be human) or lose your natural regeneration. Also, while you could still participate in the rest of the game, the transformation made you unrecognizable to anyone who knew you before, revoking your guild memberships and resetting most of your faction standings because everyone thought you were dead, not undead.

Daggerfall also had a book that claimed there were more than a hundred known strains of vampirism in Tamriel, and the Immortal Blood book that first popped up in Oblivion suggests that several have features that are *very* different from the norm. I think the lore of Oblivion even implied that the mechanics for vampirism was what they were because Cyrodillic vampires were an exception to the norm, not a rule.

Tapio75 · May 2020

How has the consistency of appearance versus fed/not fed been? I remember those who chose not to feed human blood in eastmarch to look like advanced stage of vampirism but i dont remember how the father looked like.

In any xase, even while i first modded the Oblivion vampirism work more like Bram Stokers Dracula for example, i later also played without that change and over time, theOblivion style ampirism felt better because it was diufferent from the "Norm".

I mean with this change, the vampires dpont feel so unique anymore.

In any case, vampirism being sickness, not an undeath state like in many other stories not related to TES in any way, the fact that it is an ilness implies that thebase characteristics stay the same like many strains of corona have the similar symptoms but they also vary in many ways but the base characteristics stay, so the complete reversion which also includes reversion of appearance versus effects of vampirism would not be possible. Then again theres magick here which makes things different

In any case, under the hood the vampire works pretty much like it has always done. The higher the stage the more powerful the vampire abilities are and the weaknesses get strtonger.

So the story then, should explain how in the earth only the effects of blood have been completely reversed. How is that possible? Should magick do this, but then would the rules of arcana also be reversed in the process?

Foefaller · May 2020

Tapio75 wrote: »

In any case, vampirism being sickness, not an undeath state like in many other stories not related to TES in any way, the fact that it is an ilness implies that thebase characteristics stay the same like many strains of corona have the similar symptoms but they also vary in many ways but the base characteristics stay, so the complete reversion which also includes reversion of appearance versus effects of vampirism would not be possible. Then again theres magick here which makes things different

In any case, under the hood the vampire works pretty much like it has always done. The higher the stage the more powerful the vampire abilities are and the weaknesses get strtonger.

So the story then, should explain how in the earth only the effects of blood have been completely reversed. How is that possible? Should magick do this, but then would the rules of arcana also be reversed in the process?

It is an undeath state though. The disease "kills" you and the raises you as a vampire, usually after being infected for three days, and IIRC is expressly supernatural in nature.

...and vampirism was created by Molag Bal, Daedric Prince of Domination. Baring a few (suspected) exceptions, Daedra are sentient manifestations of chaos and change; it wouldn't be far-fetched to claim that literally nothing is impossible when a Daedric Prince is involved, including vampires whose abilities become more potent with regular feeding, rather than from denying their thirst.

Finally, as mentioned a few times already in the thread, Lamea Bal tells you why your vampirism works differently from the norm in the new vampire intro quest; because she wants it to work that way for you (because, though not her exact words, she feels that vampires that become more powerful denying their thirst often become cowards afraid to feed unless absolutely nessisary, and Momma Lamea don't want no cowards for children), and as the First Vampire, she has the power to make it so.

Tapio75 · May 2020

So all is well for new vampires when lamae tells them why they are like they are. This is true no matter how twisted it feel to me that Lamae should choose to make vampires like this... I have not done the new quest so that story is rather unknown to me, but if the feeding is reversed in spite of Molag bal while Molly made them as they are. Hos is reversing the plain feeding make it spiteful? Should the thing be done better to rather turn stage 1 vampire be strong while fed and the Molly's version being stage 4 the weakest?

In any case, i would not have problems here, if the new vampire was an addition to existing one. I mean how in the earth did Lamae manage to reverse feeding on every damned vampire that has her bloodline? Those that were allready made as they were?

In my logic, only the new vampires would be different, noyt the existing ones.

tomofhyrule · May 2020

Oof, just played the tutorial for Greymoor, and it starts with Fennorian's vampirism very clearly stated to be going the old way.

He starts out looking like a stage 3-4 and he asks you to get him a potion (he says he's too weak and could likely go feral and attack you). You find it, it's blood, he drinks it, and he resets to stage 1 and gets his strength back.

So... I guess we have a different strain of vampirism? Or Fen picked up the Cyrodii strain?