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Can we get some new classes?
soulferin
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Correct me if I'm wrong but right now we have 2 classes in ESO: Stamina and Magicka or maybe 3 classes tank, dps and heal and Devs trying hard to keep it that way. Do You Guys think this illusion of equality is right direction?
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ha! With their spreadsheet balancing it certainly feels like it. Personally I‘d be fine if every class can fulfill every role on a reasonable level. But that doesn’t mean everyone must be able to tank like a DK etc. And it certainly doesn’t mean every skill must have the same „power level“. I want to feel the difference between playing a designated single target glass cannon nuker like NB (cough) or a Resilient attrition brawler like DK.
I‘m still in waiting how ZOS‘ „power fantasy“ agenda plays out but from what I‘ve seen I‘m not impressed.
So to answer your question: no, I don’t think they are going in the right direction. Little imbalances are fine, just keep them small enough to not have „be X or bust“.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on May 24, 2020 10:02AM0 -
Eifleber✭✭✭✭✭No new classes please.
*Edited by Eifleber on May 24, 2020 11:03AM❆
Playing since dec 2019 | PC EU5 -
soulferin✭✭✭I just feel terrible right now. I'm one of those players with lots of chars, especially for pvp so I got one of each combination. and that's all the same. Same skills, same sets (got only one tank) even same gameplay so I'm doin the same things over and over again no different approach to fights sometimes just different icons on bars.
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VoidCommander✭✭✭✭✭Next expansion should have a new class if the pattern continues. Its usually class, new skilline, class, new skillline (antiquities and vampire in Greymoor’s case)1 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭Why would anyone wish for more classes if there is not any balance between the current ones?????
I mean we have 6 classes and 3 or 4 roles if we differ between magicka and stamina damage dealers. Dps wise they are quite balanced meanwhile one class brings a super strong 30% damage increase debuff.
There isnt much choice for healers and tanks though, there are certainly some meta classes for all roles.
In PvP we have a very strong disparity between most mag classes (except sorc) and any stam class. Additionally the stamina dlc classes, stamden and stamnecro, perform quite a bit better than the original stam classes.
So why more classes, if the current ones are so unbalanced.
Btw i am totally up to bring back the strength of all the classes. Currently thx to the standardization most skills have a copy pasta skill in some other class skill line and only a few skills remained original. I mean every class should be a decent healer, a decent tank or a decent dd...but why make everything the same with different colors? I want class identity back, originality, speciality. Let templars be the class with the best healing power, let dks be the real tanks, nightblades the stealthy and bursty damage dealers while being squishy, etc. Give the classes the tools back to make them unique again, strong again in their own way....
Give the classes their identity back please.Edited by FirmamentOfStars on May 25, 2020 12:15PM3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SavageChain wrote: »
Give the classes their identity back please.
Isn't that OP's whole point?1 -
soulferin✭✭✭SavageChain wrote: »Btw i am totally up to bring back the strength of all the classes. Currently thx to the standardization most skills have a copy pasta skill in some other class skill line and only a few skills remained original. I mean every class should be a decent healer, a decent tank or a decent dd...but why make everything the same with different colors? I want class identity back, originality, speciality. Let templars be the class with the best healing power, let dks be the real tanks, nightblades the stealthy and bursty damage dealers while being squishy, etc. Give the classes the tools back to make them unique again, strong again in their own way....
Give the classes their identity back please.
Yes, exactly. In fact I don't need new classes I need just, a reason why to play sorcerer or warden. In my perfect scenario each class should have totally different playstyle. For example Let necro deal dmg by skeletons, ghosts and hexes, let sorc conjure projectiles and aoe elemental dmg, let templar be our hero in close combat who focus on weapon usage and buffing allies. In short words I would love to see in chat in Craglorn LF 4dd 2 sorc, DK, WD 2H Temp, NB.
Just any reason to play specific class, now we can just use option at the beginning create new Magicka char and it will be no difference.0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭SavageChain wrote: »Why would anyone wish for more classes if there is not any balance between the current ones?????
I mean we have 6 classes and 3 or 4 roles if we differ between magicka and stamina damage dealers. Dps wise they are quite balanced meanwhile one class brings a super strong 30% damage increase debuff.
There isnt much choice for healers and tanks though, there are certainly some meta classes for all roles.
In PvP we have a very strong disparity between most mag classes (except sorc) and any stam class. Additionally the stamina dlc classes, stamden and stamnecro, perform quite a bit better than the original stam classes.
So why more classes, if the current ones are so unbalanced.
Btw i am totally up to bring back the strength of all the classes. Currently thx to the standardization most skills have a copy pasta skill in some other class skill line and only a few skills remained original. I mean every class should be a decent healer, a decent tank or a decent dd...but why make everything the same with different colors? I want class identity back, originality, speciality. Let templars be the class with the best healing power, let dks be the real tanks, nightblades the stealthy and bursty damage dealers while being squishy, etc. Give the classes the tools back to make them unique again, strong again in their own way....
Give the classes their identity back please.
Man after my own heart. This is something I whole heartedly agree on. I think alternative builds should defo be an option for every class. NB Tanks, DK Healers and Templar DPS should all be a thing. But I do want more identity. What I do not want though is a reversion back to how it used to be... otherwise we end up back at square one with Sorcerer players kicking any DPS that is not playing a Sorcerer.0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭As far as 'Identity' is concerned in general. There are 3 options you can take:
1. Identity = What a class does. I.e. Which class is Burst? Which is sustained DPS? Which is the healing class? etc.
This is bad as it bottlenecks people into playing as a dedicated role in group content, this basically ends up with all tanks being DK's and all healers being Templars. This is unhealthy as it is not letting players choose how they play and get rewarded for it.
2. Identity = Appearance only. No difference between classes other than aesthetics.
This is bad because Identity is effectively lost and the game becomes boring as all classes do the same thing.
3. Identity = How a class does. I.e. Any class can successfully fulfil any role just as well as other classes, BUT they way they achieve this is very different and unique to them alone.
This is the more favourable and best option as it lets players basically play any class they want and get rewarded for it.
Right now the game has moved from option 1 to option 2.
Only Necromancers can be regarded as a class that is definitively fulfils option 3.
So the correct path now is to bring the other classes into a similar state of feeling unique, while still being able to excel at any play style the player chooses.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »
So the correct path now is to bring the other classes into a similar state of feeling unique, while still being able to excel at any play style the player chooses.
You're totally right. Sad thing is we kinda had something like opt 3 in the past. Remember saptanks for example? It could be so easy. DK tanking via mitigation, Templars via runes/heals, sorcs via shields/pets etc. The groundwork is there but approach that each and every skill must have the exact same power budget ruines it. It is required that some skills stand out to make different approaches work. But ironically even the forum cries for nerfs as soon as something stands out positively.
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soulferin✭✭✭Yeah but it's because we don't see any bigger picture nor direction of changes. And in fact if direction is to make everything the same just do everything the same and don't pretend it's not. I will be a lot better if ZOS would not act like they don't see or understands those forum threads. Obviously we can nerf everything to do 100 dmg and change hp bars in whole world to fit to that but it's not a solution.Edited by soulferin on May 25, 2020 2:59PM0
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HildrSoul ShrivenMindOfTheSwarm wrote: »As far as 'Identity' is concerned in general. There are 3 options you can take:
1. Identity = What a class does. I.e. Which class is Burst? Which is sustained DPS? Which is the healing class? etc.
This is bad as it bottlenecks people into playing as a dedicated role in group content, this basically ends up with all tanks being DK's and all healers being Templars. This is unhealthy as it is not letting players choose how they play and get rewarded for it.
2. Identity = Appearance only. No difference between classes other than aesthetics.
This is bad because Identity is effectively lost and the game becomes boring as all classes do the same thing.
3. Identity = How a class does. I.e. Any class can successfully fulfil any role just as well as other classes, BUT they way they achieve this is very different and unique to them alone.
This is the more favourable and best option as it lets players basically play any class they want and get rewarded for it.
Right now the game has moved from option 1 to option 2.
Only Necromancers can be regarded as a class that is definitively fulfils option 3.
So the correct path now is to bring the other classes into a similar state of feeling unique, while still being able to excel at any play style the player chooses.
But you can't have 3 while having all classes perfectly balanced on 1v1 as a lot of people ask (I wonder why they don't just go play some CS:GO at this point).
For example you could have different type of healer: one better for HoT, one better for direct heal, one better for AOE. In this case, there are scenario where HoT will be best, people will then QQ that the hot of the sorcerer is lower that the one of the DK...
If you give the 2 healer a Hot and a targeted heal, well, you can add all the gimmick you want, it will just be cosmetic in the end.
Also people will always seek the best way to do the job, regardless of the classes. So if classes have different way of doing things, then there will be one better than the other. So you tends highly to the case 1 where one class = one role.
Because there are not a lot of way to do damage, or do heal, or tank, especially when the weapon skills are accessible for everyone, you can't have 3 without going 1 (unbalanced class vs class for the same role) or 2 (balanced class vs class for the same role).
That's also why every other rpg have roles bound to class (bound to races sometimes, that's how you get 36 classes in old Lineage 2 with all their identity).
I would love to have classes with true identity, but a lot would really cry about nerf and balance in this case, because that's the only way to bring identity if you want different effects rather than cosmetic effect.
The only way I can see classes with different identity and being balanced, is the old way: creating a need between them. If you remove the possibility to be able to do everything alone, and create a need for a team, then you balance the team, needing different abilities. But that's not what people want here, so no need to think about it.1 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭We just got Necromancer and Vampires are in a class of their own now. Something might come in the future and I hope it does. They did great work on the Necromancer, but I want old classes to be refreshed and given a new breath of life. If they do another class, then I would want a Battlemage or Spellsword. Maybe even a Stamina based class such as an Acrobat that is crazy quick or an Artificer that builds traps and Dwemer mechs.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
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The only way I can see classes with different identity and being balanced, is the old way: creating a need between them. If you remove the possibility to be able to do everything alone, and create a need for a team, then you balance the team, needing different abilities. But that's not what people want here, so no need to think about it.
With classes performing far better (or in this case: most classes underperforming) at any given role we'd also end up with option 1). So the incentive can't be to "not be able to do everything alone". It would be better to give actual incentives like unique buffs, debuffs, synergies etc. Every class needs to bring something to the table that other classes can't.
However, I'm not sure which patch notes it was in but ZOS stated they don't want a situation where "group buff X is only avaible from class Y" so every trial group feels "forced" to have certain classes in it to be optimally set up.
To me, this seems a little strange as e.g. Necros are the only source of major vulnerability and the original classes have minor group buffs baked into the passives (prophecy etc.). (I think the quote was from the patch that nerfed those minor buffs).
However, I'd still prefer such "class need" over a trial consisting of 8 stamcro DDs or 8 magblade DDs and only DK tanks. We already had those situations.
And on a general note, people will always flock to what is BiS, even if it's just miniscule 2k more DPS. You could have a 99% evenly balanced class system and score runners, meta chasers and the likes would still jump on whatever is 1% "overperforming". Read some of the old racial balancing threads were people wrote mile-long essayst about Bretons might outparsing Altmers by 1-2k dps under certain circumstances.
But in the end it doesn't really matter if the performance is slightly different between classes as long those uniquenesses would exist in a ) utility and b ) playstyle. If people like saptanking more than facetanking they would choose NBs over DKs as tanks, even if DK is a tip ahead in that role.1 -
soulferin✭✭✭No new classes until they balance the ones already in the game please.
Just read some actual response pls
Back to the topic.
Is it possible right now to achieve some response from ZoS to focus on such approach? Maybe through streamers? I don't think they have something better to do right now according to Twitch 0 -
Foefaller✭✭✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »As far as 'Identity' is concerned in general. There are 3 options you can take:
1. Identity = What a class does. I.e. Which class is Burst? Which is sustained DPS? Which is the healing class? etc.
This is bad as it bottlenecks people into playing as a dedicated role in group content, this basically ends up with all tanks being DK's and all healers being Templars. This is unhealthy as it is not letting players choose how they play and get rewarded for it.
2. Identity = Appearance only. No difference between classes other than aesthetics.
This is bad because Identity is effectively lost and the game becomes boring as all classes do the same thing.
3. Identity = How a class does. I.e. Any class can successfully fulfil any role just as well as other classes, BUT they way they achieve this is very different and unique to them alone.
This is the more favourable and best option as it lets players basically play any class they want and get rewarded for it.
Right now the game has moved from option 1 to option 2.
Only Necromancers can be regarded as a class that is definitively fulfils option 3.
So the correct path now is to bring the other classes into a similar state of feeling unique, while still being able to excel at any play style the player chooses.
But you can't have 3 while having all classes perfectly balanced on 1v1 as a lot of people ask (I wonder why they don't just go play some CS:GO at this point).
For example you could have different type of healer: one better for HoT, one better for direct heal, one better for AOE. In this case, there are scenario where HoT will be best, people will then QQ that the hot of the sorcerer is lower that the one of the DK...
If you give the 2 healer a Hot and a targeted heal, well, you can add all the gimmick you want, it will just be cosmetic in the end.
Also people will always seek the best way to do the job, regardless of the classes. So if classes have different way of doing things, then there will be one better than the other. So you tends highly to the case 1 where one class = one role.
Because there are not a lot of way to do damage, or do heal, or tank, especially when the weapon skills are accessible for everyone, you can't have 3 without going 1 (unbalanced class vs class for the same role) or 2 (balanced class vs class for the same role).
That's also why every other rpg have roles bound to class (bound to races sometimes, that's how you get 36 classes in old Lineage 2 with all their identity).
I would love to have classes with true identity, but a lot would really cry about nerf and balance in this case, because that's the only way to bring identity if you want different effects rather than cosmetic effect.
The only way I can see classes with different identity and being balanced, is the old way: creating a need between them. If you remove the possibility to be able to do everything alone, and create a need for a team, then you balance the team, needing different abilities. But that's not what people want here, so no need to think about it.
I don't think that's what he means. I mean, his 1st point is that making them different in that way is *not* the best idea.
Necros are unique because they have unique mechanics that revolve around creating and exploiting corpses to reach their full potential. So why shouldn't the other classes have some sort of gimmick or mechanic that makes them feel like a fundamentally different class?0 -
redgreensunset✭✭✭✭✭
✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »As far as 'Identity' is concerned in general. There are 3 options you can take:
1. Identity = What a class does. I.e. Which class is Burst? Which is sustained DPS? Which is the healing class? etc.
This is bad as it bottlenecks people into playing as a dedicated role in group content, this basically ends up with all tanks being DK's and all healers being Templars. This is unhealthy as it is not letting players choose how they play and get rewarded for it.
2. Identity = Appearance only. No difference between classes other than aesthetics.
This is bad because Identity is effectively lost and the game becomes boring as all classes do the same thing.
3. Identity = How a class does. I.e. Any class can successfully fulfil any role just as well as other classes, BUT they way they achieve this is very different and unique to them alone.
This is the more favourable and best option as it lets players basically play any class they want and get rewarded for it.
Right now the game has moved from option 1 to option 2.
Only Necromancers can be regarded as a class that is definitively fulfils option 3.
So the correct path now is to bring the other classes into a similar state of feeling unique, while still being able to excel at any play style the player chooses.
But you can't have 3 while having all classes perfectly balanced on 1v1 as a lot of people ask (I wonder why they don't just go play some CS:GO at this point).
For example you could have different type of healer: one better for HoT, one better for direct heal, one better for AOE. In this case, there are scenario where HoT will be best, people will then QQ that the hot of the sorcerer is lower that the one of the DK...
If you give the 2 healer a Hot and a targeted heal, well, you can add all the gimmick you want, it will just be cosmetic in the end.
Also people will always seek the best way to do the job, regardless of the classes. So if classes have different way of doing things, then there will be one better than the other. So you tends highly to the case 1 where one class = one role.
Because there are not a lot of way to do damage, or do heal, or tank, especially when the weapon skills are accessible for everyone, you can't have 3 without going 1 (unbalanced class vs class for the same role) or 2 (balanced class vs class for the same role).
That's also why every other rpg have roles bound to class (bound to races sometimes, that's how you get 36 classes in old Lineage 2 with all their identity).
I would love to have classes with true identity, but a lot would really cry about nerf and balance in this case, because that's the only way to bring identity if you want different effects rather than cosmetic effect.
The only way I can see classes with different identity and being balanced, is the old way: creating a need between them. If you remove the possibility to be able to do everything alone, and create a need for a team, then you balance the team, needing different abilities. But that's not what people want here, so no need to think about it.
I don't think that's what he means. I mean, his 1st point is that making them different in that way is *not* the best idea.
Necros are unique because they have unique mechanics that revolve around creating and exploiting corpses to reach their full potential. So why shouldn't the other classes have some sort of gimmick or mechanic that makes them feel like a fundamentally different class?
But such a gimmick would be just that, a gimmick, a visual overlay of what is basically X versions of the same ability. There would be no fundamental difference between classes except the visual.
Which would be fine by my, I'm a great fan of the "all classes should be able to fill/play all roles", I just fail to see how this in any way could constitute that 'class identity' that people are talking about.
And for what it's worth, my necro healer doesn't really feel different to play than my templar ditto, they're both healer, one of them just looks more like an edgelord while doing it is all.0 -
Sleep724✭✭✭✭✭Any new class is just more pay2win. How about updating older class abilities with new visuals or completely new skills? On the other hand look what happened to stone fist so I'm not so sure now lmao.3
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kind_hero✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I tend to do most of the content on one char for the feeling of progression through the zones and content, but also for achievements. However, during 5 years I got bored of playing nightblade on my main (I played both stamina and magicka).
So, I would love a class change token.
When I started ESO my playstyle was leaning towards physical, close quarters combat, but with time I liked to enjoy ranged more, and I feel that magicka classes are more fun than the stamina ones.
Stamina chars are fun for their 2h weapon skills, but 2wield and bow does not feel right for me, I mean it looks more like I am casting spells which throw daggers or arrows, rather than doing combat moves.
All this is a personal taste, don't take it as a critique to your playstyles.
Another thing I would like is to have some way to alter certain abilities. I realise this will create many balance issues, but it's just something I think could make the playstyles more unique. This would go in the direction of spellcrafting.
In my opinion, this game does not really have very distinct classes, because each can do mostly the same thing like the other, only the animations are different, so instead of having thunders, you have a light beam or a red/darkmagic lance. And there is no way of going back to class identity. Then, better move forward and let people customise their skills even more. Sets do this to some degree, each one has 4 filler stats while the 5th gives some significant bonus or ability. But I would like sets to be more about adjusting your stats (resources/regen or power) than going after a bonus.
More customisation would be nice regarding how certain abilities look. I would like to change my sorc's pets, have some other daedric creatures or at least change their skins.[PC/EU] Tamriel Hero, Stormproof, Grand Master Crafter0 -
Aisleyne✭✭✭✭✭I don't feel any desire for new classes personally. But I would still love to see a new weapon skill line (magicka melee, spellsword, etc). I was really excited by the idea that it might come with Greymoor when all that speculation was happening before the reveal. My disappointment was real.0 -
Sahidom✭✭✭✭ESO model for the game mirrors World of War craft when they did away with the talent trees towards an overly simplified approach. While ESO has hundreds of sets and a diversity of skills; but the game itself boils down to using only a fragment of those choices. Just like another poster said, "90% of stam users use d-swing," and execute. Class identity is a false carrot when too many classes have had their gameplay style mirrored and copied over to other classes and non-class skills; its the why can't I do this with my class too argument...
Nightblades, for example, need a serious update, along with other classes. You think the cloak was their signature move but that skill was gutted out and limited. Same with Assassins Will. One or two skills should not define class identity.
For instance,, Nightblade class skills are not optimized to the appropriate tree passives. Other original classes have similar problems except Temllars and Sorcerors which seem to carry some preferential bias favor from the dev teams: opinion but can be well argued using past changes to debate the statement. We have had the world of necro and world of wardens, gap fillers can be pulled from the original core classes.
Right now, they can't afford to fix the core classes. Class identity and their ideal power fantasy was a PR stunt, just like their Class Rep., to manage negative feedback over a game that has serious gameplay flaws.
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MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't feel any desire for new classes personally. But I would still love to see a new weapon skill line (magicka melee, spellsword, etc). I was really excited by the idea that it might come with Greymoor when all that speculation was happening before the reveal. My disappointment was real.
Spellsword would work better as a class and more in line with Elder Scrolls lore. Battlemage is another option too.0 -
MindOfTheSwarm✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO model for the game mirrors World of War craft when they did away with the talent trees towards an overly simplified approach. While ESO has hundreds of sets and a diversity of skills; but the game itself boils down to using only a fragment of those choices. Just like another poster said, "90% of stam users use d-swing," and execute. Class identity is a false carrot when too many classes have had their gameplay style mirrored and copied over to other classes and non-class skills; its the why can't I do this with my class too argument...
Nightblades, for example, need a serious update, along with other classes. You think the cloak was their signature move but that skill was gutted out and limited. Same with Assassins Will. One or two skills should not define class identity.
For instance,, Nightblade class skills are not optimized to the appropriate tree passives. Other original classes have similar problems except Temllars and Sorcerors which seem to carry some preferential bias favor from the dev teams: opinion but can be well argued using past changes to debate the statement. We have had the world of necro and world of wardens, gap fillers can be pulled from the original core classes.
Right now, they can't afford to fix the core classes. Class identity and their ideal power fantasy was a PR stunt, just like their Class Rep., to manage negative feedback over a game that has serious gameplay flaws.
Their are multiple financial avenues that ZOS could take to balance out the reworking of older classes:
1. Make the updates and release with a new DLC area. Most people like playing new content so they would get a return. Vampire for example was reworked and everyone gets this for free, but most people are gonna get Greymoor anyway so ZOS is getting the return on the rework.
2. Release some new Crown Crates or aesthetic items tied to the class you are updating. NB rework for example and bunch of NB crown crates or other items that would bring in income to offset the cost of a rework.
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Eifleber✭✭✭✭✭
Not sure if they ever had them (quite new player myself) but it would indeed be nice to have them distiguished a bit more.SavageChain wrote: »Give the classes their identity back please.
After playing a number of MMOs I am quite surprised that ideal setups, CP distribution for a lot of classes and roles is getting pretty identical. All the weapon, guild and world skills often already makes up almost half the skills (even more for healers).
What's the use of adding more classes, then?
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Playing since dec 2019 | PC EU0 -
soulferin✭✭✭
Not sure if they ever had them (quite new player myself) but it would indeed be nice to have them distiguished a bit more.SavageChain wrote: »Give the classes their identity back please.
After playing a number of MMOs I am quite surprised that ideal setups, CP distribution for a lot of classes and roles is getting pretty identical. All the weapon, guild and world skills often already makes up almost half the skills (even more for healers).
What's the use of adding more classes, then?
That's exactly my original point now as class I see Magicka or stamina or just DPS. I want to play as Nightblade or just remove the classes illusion in general, we don't need this in character creation anyway1
