OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Give Nightblases a unique +50% alchemical poison effects on their applying poisons to target.

I could get behind this. It is the assassin class after all. Maybe an increase to proc rate instead. This way moonhunter magicka set would actually be viable, and poisons would be especially strong on stam.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

As for cloak being a toggle? Intriguing idea but not sure it would be balanced. I suppose you could have it drain Magicka overtime while active if this were implemented. Its not impossible that it could work though.

Sendirra wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Sendirra wrote: »

Mark target should increase your damage dealt to the marked target by X amount.
And cloak could be turned into a toggle ability? Would this be viable?

I think we all agree that Mark Target should work like that yes. As for cloak being a toggle? Intriguing idea but not sure it would be balanced. I suppose you could have it drain Magicka overtime while active if this were implemented. Its not impossible that it could work though.

Yes, I thought it would be like an active drain, similar to one of the new vampiric abilities (Blood frenzy) but drains mag/s instead of health/s - if it would be only one time cast and be active until you toggled it off, we could all agree that it would be OP...

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

[...]

Impale:
Throw a magic blade with lethal precision to strike an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage. Deals up to 350% more damage to enemies below 50% Health. Applies Major Breach, reducing your target's Spell Resistance by X for 20 seconds. Attacking with Assassin's Blade while Stealthed or Invisible silences the enemy for 1 second. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

* (Ability is brought in line with skills such as Reverse Slash and Whirling Blades, Killer's Blade offers a bleed and Impale is buffed to deal more flat damage in execution ranges. Impale gains Major Breach to allow Magicka builds apply this debuff from range. Silence is added while attacking from stealth to incorporate stealth and cloak into more skills outside of Veiled Strike.)
[...]

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

A bit of a tldr here. I skimmed though.

I like the idea behind your nightblades fervour mechanic but not the mechanic itself. I like that your trying to introduce a class unique mechanic for the class to revolve around as a sort of response to the corpse siphoning of necros. Without going into complete detail with your post its hard to say if such a thing would be buff. But honestly. . . I just feel like its kind of forced and uneccesary. Inorganic, if you will.

The over arching mechanic for nightblades has always been light attack centric. They have always been the 'high apm' class with a focus around weaving. Pretty much since zos determined that weaving was an acceptable and integral part of the game. Just as sorcs were once centered around heavy attacks and templars around channels. That theme and mechanic is seen in particular with siphoning strikes and grim focus.

Keeping this theme going, reinforcing and doubling down on it i think would be key to distinguishing the nightblade in this meta where every class relies on light attack weaving to remain relevant. We are supposed to be the agile assassins after all. I feel as though more of our abilities should reward weaving and consistent output of light attacks vs being stack centric such as with your fervour mechanic.

My other critique, is that we are the assassin class. Our damage should be rapid, hard hitting, and on demand. I like that we dont utilise delayed burst. It means we are supposed to rely on tactical aggression and relentless assault combined with agility and diversionary movement. The fervour mechanic and your changes to skills to revolve around that feels like it necessitates build up, much like the way other classes currently rely on delayed burst. Waiting to build up an adequate number of stacks to get the desired power level before unloading. This is fine with grim focus as it is just barely in the sweet spot to be used as a finisher, but if the whole class revolved around this concept i think it would feel less like an assassin and more like a brawler/bruiser.

I think the concept would likely get great milage on the attrition based dk whose' identity is supposed to be about gaining an advantage over the duration of a fight (infact i think it would be brilliant for a dk playstyle), but on a nightblade it would too drastically deviate from the established norms for nightblade play and even detract from the identity in my opinion.

Of course, if there is something you think i am mis interpreting due to the aforementioned skimming i encourage you to elaborate and explain in preferably an easier to digest manner.

As far as certain skills, the standouts:

Mark: again a straight damage buff at the outset i feel is far too simplistic and overpowered. You end up between being over powered redundant or too weak to be worth adding over something else. We would get nothing but complaints about the class were such a buff to be implemented. I could see this either as a group utilty skill offering reapers mark's kill reaards to whomever gets the killing blow, or offering unique functionality such as a clone of the maelstrom bonus to the marked target.

Path: honestly minor evasion would be perfect here. I like that change.

Lotus fan and morphs: i think that both are honestly good on live and just need their damage slightly boosted. You seem to be overloading a lot of skills this one is quite noticeable.

Peircing mark (specifically): honestly i really like the idea of an ability that lets us rip through damage shields. In fact i think nightblade needs more class based abilities designed to bypass defenses rather than rip through them faster. I dont think this is necessarily the best implementation but i like where your head is at.
In general though the 'mark' skills by design should be about group utility and signifying a priority target to your team while rewarding them for focusing or killing said target. An assasin doesnt need to mark his own target. The mark is for others.


In summary though, i feel like your asking for a bit much with a lot of skills, that would much like the situation with templars right now, create a lot of redundancies and in turn create a seriously overpowered damage class with little reprecussion for that power.

As i personally envision it, the class is more about attack speed and persistence and the abilities should and could reflect that with relatively minor changes as opposed to a total overhaul. The class should aim to be the sustain kings to maintain that high apm, and thus should benefit most from light attack compared to any other class (acheivable by buffing siphoning attacks/leeching strickes and adding lifesteel somewhere in siphoning tree).

There is so much more that i can say but for now i think thats plenty of discussion points.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I have gone through what people have said and I have updated my proposed changes in an attempt to cater for what the community is looking for. As always, please scrutinise and leave your thoughts below. Share improvements or your own ideas if you wish.

Unique Mechanic:

Nightblade's Fervour: Nightblades gain stacks from some abilities that can be consumed by other abilities to enhance them. A Nightblade can gain a maximum of 3 stacks.

Assassination:

Death Stroke:
Ravage an enemy with a spinning attack to deal X Magic Damage and increase your damage against them by 20% from your attacks for 6 seconds. Grants 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour.

Incapacitating Strike:
Ravage an enemy with a swift strike, dealing X Disease Damage and causing them to take 20% more damage from your attacks for 6 seconds.If cast with 120 or more Ultimate, the enemy is stunned for 3 seconds.While slotted you gain Reave, which restores 100 Magicka and Stamina when you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack on an enemy with a negative effect active on them. Grants 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour.

Soul Harvest:
Ravage an enemy with a spinning attack, dealing X Magic Damage and increasing your damage against them by 20% for 6 seconds. Also afflicts the enemy with Major Defile, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 30%. While slotted, any time you kill an enemy you gain 10 Ultimate. Grants 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour.

* (Essentially the same)

Veiled Strike:
Slash an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage. Attacking with Veiled Strike while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Surprise Attack:
Slash an enemy, dealing X Physical Damage. Applies Major Fracture, reducing your target's Physical Resistance by X for 20 seconds. Attacking with Surprise Attack while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Conceiled Weapon:
Slash an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage. Attacking with Concealed Weapon while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance. While slotted, your Movement Speed while Sneaking or invisible is increased by 25%. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

* (No changes but moved from Shadow Line. Major Fracture returns to Surprise Attack.)

Assassin's Blade:
Thrust a magic blade with lethal precision to stab an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage. Deals up to 300% more damage to enemies below 50% Health. Attacking with Assassin's Blade while Stealthed or Invisible silences the enemy for 1 second. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Killer's Blade:
Thrust a caustic blade with lethal precision to stab an enemy, dealing X Disease Damage and causing them to bleed for 6 seconds dealing X Physical Damage every second. Deals up to 300% more damage to enemies below 50% Health. Heals you for X if the enemy dies while under this effect. Attacking with Killer's Blade while Stealthed or Invisible silences the enemy for 1 second. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Umbral Slash:
Finish a target with a devastating attack, dealing X Magic Damage. This ability consumes all active Nightblade's Fervour stacks to increase its damage.

Assassinate:
Finish a target with a devastating attack, dealing X Physical Damage and heals for 33% of the damage dealt. This ability consumes all active Nightblade's Fervour stacks to increase its damage.

Spectral Bow:
Finish a target with a devastating ranged attack, dealing X Magic Damage and heals for 50% of the damage dealt if you are within 7 meters of the enemy. This ability consumes all active Nightblade's Fervour stacks to increase its damage.

* (This ability replaces Grim Focus and consumes Nightblade's Fervour stacks to increase its damage. Base damage would be reduced to compensate. Base ability and Stamina morph are now melee abilities but Magicka Morph remains ranged and offers higher healing if used in close range.)

Impale:
Throw a magic blade with lethal precision to strike an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage. Deals up to 350% more damage to enemies below 50% Health. Applies Major Breach, reducing your target's Spell Resistance by X for 20 seconds. Attacking with Assassin's Blade while Stealthed or Invisible silences the enemy for 1 second. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

* (Ability is brought in line with skills such as Reverse Slash and Whirling Blades, Killer's Blade offers a bleed and Impale is buffed to deal more flat damage in execution ranges. Impale gains Major Breach to allow Magicka builds apply this debuff from range. Silence is added while attacking from stealth to incorporate stealth and cloak into more skills outside of Veiled Strike.)

Teleport Strike:
Flash through the shadows and ambush an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage and afflicting them with Minor Vulnerability for 10 seconds, increasing their damage taken by 8%. Attacking with Teleport Strike from Stealth or invisible reduces your target's Spell Resistance by X. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Lotus Fan:
Flash through the shadows and ambush an enemy, dealing X Magic Damage. After teleporting you unleash a fan of knives, dealing an additional X Magic Damage over 10 seconds to the target and nearby enemies. All enemies hit are afflicted with Minor Vulnerability for 10 seconds, increasing their damage taken by 8%. Attacking with Teleport Strike from Stealth or invisible reduces the Spell Resistance of all enemies hit by X. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Ambush:
Flash through the shadows and ambush an enemy, dealing X Physical Damage and afflicting them with Minor Vulnerability for 10 seconds, increasing their damage taken by 8%. Also grants you 3 stacks of Empower, increasing the damage of your next 3 Light Attacks by 40%. Attacking with Ambush from Stealth or invisible reduces your target's Physical Resistance by X. Grants one stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

* (Resistance debuff helps Stealth and invisible be incorporated into the role more. Ambush gains slight buff to Empower.)

Mark Target:
Expose an enemy's weaknesses to cause them to take 4% more damage from all sources for 20 seconds. When a marked enemy dies, you heal for 3612. This portion of the ability scales off your Maximum Health. You can only have one Mark Target active at a time.

Piercing Mark:
Expose an enemy's weaknesses to cause them to take 4% more damage from all sources for 20 seconds. This damage is increased to 10% vs enemy damage shields and blocking enemies. When a marked enemy dies, you heal for 2709. This portion of the ability scales off your Maximum Health. You can only have one Piercing Mark active at a time.

Reaper's Mark:
Expose an enemy's weaknesses to cause them to take 8% more damage from you for 20 seconds. When a marked enemy dies, you heal for 5597, and you gain Major Berserk, increasing your damage done by 25% for 10 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your Maximum Health. You can only have one Reaper's Mark active at a time.

* (Ability is now a unique damage taken debuff. Reaper's Mark empowers this debuff but only applies to your skills instead of allies. Piercing Mark deals more damage vs shields and blocking targets, emphasising the 'Piercing' aspect, however it no longer reveals to encourage more active use of other reveal skills such as Light, Flare and Hunter.)

Passives (at full upgrade):

Adrenaline:
When you deal Critical Damage to an enemy, your Magicka or Stamina recovery is increased by X, whichever maximum is higher.

Anatomical Knowledge:
Increases your Weapon Critical and Spell Critical ratings by X for each Assassination ability slotted. Alchemical Poisons gain an extra 10% chance to activate and last for a further 2 seconds.

Hemorrhage:
While at 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour your Light and Heavy attacks bleed for X Physical Damage over 6 seconds.

Master Assassin:
While an Assassination ability is slotted
Increases your Critical Damage by 10%. Dealing Critical Damage grants you and your group Minor Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by X for 20 seconds.

* (Adrenaline replaces Executioner as a more reliable passive.
* Anatomical Knowledge replaces Pressure Points and gains the added benefit of buffing Alchemical Poisons to make them more appealing.
* Hemorrhage has been reworked to reflect its name better, and incorporates the Nightblade's Fervour mechanic.
* Master Assassin is basically the old Hemorrhage, removing the Spell and Weapon damage while invisible, which was unreliable and only useful on an opening attack.)



Shadow:

Consuming Darkness:
Conjure a ring of shadow, reducing the Movement Speed of enemies by 70% and granting you and your allies Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%. You remain invisible while inside the area. Allies in the area can activate the Hidden Refresh synergy, granting them invisibility, increasing their Movement Speed by 70%, and healing them for X Health over 4 seconds. Grants 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour.

Bolstering Darkness:
Conjure a ring of shadow, reducing the Movement Speed of enemies by 70% and granting you and your allies Major Protection while inside the ring and even after leaving it, reducing your damage taken by 30%. Allies in the area can activate the Hidden Refresh synergy, granting them invisibility, increasing their Movement Speed by 70%, and healing them for X Health over 4 seconds. You no longer gain invisible, but blocking costs are reduced for you and allies. Grants 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour.

Veil of Blades:
Conjure a ring of shadow, reducing the Movement Speed of enemies by 70%, dealing X Magic Damage to them every 1 second, and granting you and your allies Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 30%. You remain invisible while inside the area. Allies in the area can activate the Hidden Refresh synergy, granting them invisibility, increasing their Movement Speed by 70%, and healing them for X Health over 4 seconds. Grants 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour.

* (Adds invisible to base ability and Veil of Blades Morph. Bolstering Darkness does not grant invisibility but reduces the cost of block making it the superior tanking choice.)

Shadow Cloak:
Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds.

Shadowy Disguise:
Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. Your next direct damage attack used within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike.

Dark Cloak:
Shroud yourself in protective shadow to heal for X every 1 second, over 6 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your highest resource. You gain Minor Protection while shrouded, reducing your damage taken by 8%. Consumes all stacks of Nightblade's Fervour to increase its duration and remove negative effects, 2 seconds and 1 effect per stack.

* (No changes except to Dark Cloak which makes use of Nightblade's Fervour mechanic and the healing scaling with highest resource making it an option for non-tank builds.)

Blur:
Surround yourself in a phantasmic aura to gain Major Evasion, decreasing damage from area attacks by 25% for 26 seconds.

Mirage:
Surround yourself in a phantasmic aura to gain Major Evasion and Minor Resolve, reducing damage from area attacks by 25% and increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320 for 26 seconds.

Phantasmal Escape:
Activate to blink 5 meters in the direction you are moving, dodging incoming attacks during and for 0.3 seconds after. Activating this ability removes all snares and immobilizations from you and grants immunity to them for 4 seconds.

* (Moved from Assassination line to better reflect its defensive nature. Phantasmal Escape reworked as a short range blink, to put this in context Bolt Escape is 15 meters.)

Path of Darkness:
Create a corridor of shadows, granting you and allies in area Minor Evasion, decreasing damage from area attacks by 5%. Effect persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path. Grants 1 stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Twisting Path:
Create a corridor of shadows, granting you and allies in area Minor Evasion, decreasing damage from area attacks by 5%. Effect persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path. Deals X Magic Damage to enemies in the target area every 1 second.

Refreshing Path:
Create a corridor of shadows, granting you and allies in area Minor Evasion, decreasing damage from area attacks by 5%. Grants Minor Vitality to you and your allies, increasing healing received by 8%. Effect persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path. Heals X Health to you and allies in area every 1 second.

* (Major Expedition removed as it was clunky. Instead, gains Minor Evasion and Refreshing Path is buffed with Minor Vitality to help NB healers and tanks.)

Aspect of Terror and Morphs:
No changes except for each option granting 1 stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Summon Shade and Morphs:
No changes except for each option granting 1 stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Passives:

Refreshing Shadows:
No changes.

Shadow Barrier:
No changes.

Dark Vigor:
Increases your Health Recovery by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.

Dark Veil:
No changes.

* (Dark Vigor is made more useful to fall in line with change to Dark Cloak.)


Siphoning

Soul Shred and Morphs:
No changes except for each option granting 3 stacks of Nightblade's Fervour.

Strife and Morphs:
No changes except for each option granting 1 stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Malevolent Offering:

Bind an enemy in damaging vines that deal X Magic Damage every second for 20 seconds. You and nearby allies are healed for 50% of the damage dealt. Consumes all stacks of Nightblade's Fervour to increase the healing done, 10% per stack.

Healthy Offering:
Reduces the damage but increases the healing. Consumes all stacks of Nightblade's Fervour to increase the healing done, 10% per stack.

Vile Vines:
Deals increased Disease Damage and reduces healing. Consumes all stacks of Nightblade's Fervour to increase the healing done, 10% per stack.

(Vile Vines changed to a Disease Morph to enhance build variety.)

Cripple:
No change. Grants 1 stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Crippling Grasp:
Sap an enemy's agility and wrack them with pain, dealing Disease Magic Damage over 10 seconds and reducing their movement speed by 50% for 4 seconds. While this effect persists the enemy is afflicted with Minor Magickasteal, causing you and your allies to restore 300 Magicka every 1 second when damaging them. Grants 1 stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

Debilitate:
Sap an enemy's agility and wrack them with pain, dealing X Disease Damage over 10 seconds and reducing their movement speed by 50% for 4 seconds. While this effect persists the enemy is afflicted with Minor Defile, reducing their healing received by 15%. Grants 1 stack of Nightblade's Fervour.

* (Crippling Grasp is the same as the current Debilitate. Debilitate is now a Stamina morph to allow the possibility of a Disease build and increase Stamina option within the skill line.)

Siphoning Strikes:
No changes here.

Drain Power:
Siphon the vigor from your enemies' blood, dealing X Magic Damage to all nearby enemies. If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds. Deals 5% more damage per stack of Nightblade's Fervour but does not consume them.

Power Extraction:
Siphon the vigor from your enemies' blood, dealing X Disease Damage to all nearby enemies. If an enemy is hit, you reduce their Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 200 for 8 seconds and you gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds. Deals 5% more damage per stack of Nightblade's Fervour but does not consume them.

Sap Essence:
Siphon the vigor from your enemies' blood, dealing X Magic Damage to all nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for X plus 20% more for each enemy hit. If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 20% for 20 seconds. Deals 5% more damage per stack of Nightblade's Fervour but does not consume them.

Passives:

Insidious:
Increases your Damage Done by 2% for each Siphoning ability slotted.

Magicka Flood:
No changes.

Soul Siphoner:
No changes.

Transfer:
Casting a Siphoning ability generates 4 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

* (The replacement of Catalyst with Insidious was to not make potions a crutch while at the same time allowing Siphoning abilities to deal more damage and create viable options for ranged Magicka Nightblades and Disease builds. Transfer has been buffed to compensate the loss in Ultimate gain from Catalyst.)


Summary:

Assassination line aims to improve burst and synergy between skill.

Shadow line aims to improve defensive options.

Siphoning line aims to buff Magicka options and Disease options.

The Nightblade's Fervour mechanic is to make gameplay more dynamic and fast paced. Skill rotations would be more selective as a player would need to decide what skill to use in order to consume stacks depending on the situation. The mechanic also serves all roles, buffing damage, tanking and healing when applied to the consuming skill. Of course, those Nightblades that choose invisibility will lose out on the tanking option for spending stacks, but that is the price for potential big damage.

Final note:
I have tried to address all the issues raised by the community in this post and others. To clarify, I do believe that cast times need to be removed on many abilities but felt this was better addressed outside of my proposed rework.

Reply below and keep the suggestions coming. Talk about pros and cons and we can keep refining over time what the NB identity should be.

Thanks again for all contributions.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

@Deathlord92

Wow. Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. However, I do like others to contribute too. Owlthemad had a good point about Mark having more group utility, something which I have taken on board and now agree with. His Shadowy Disguise idea on improving move speed is also good. But thanks again, it's nice hearing positive feedback.